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"It's a trap!"

Janella Spears lost $400,000 to internet scammers, after cleaning out her husband's retirement account, remortgaging their house, and taking a lien on their car.  (Source: KATU.com)

The letters contained many obvious typos, yet Mrs. Spears continued to send tens of thousands of dollars. A PI on the case says it was a case of obsession fueled by greed.  (Source: KATU.com)
Greed is not a good thing, as one woman's story shows

With 80 percent of Americans online, the internet has become the cityscape of the twenty-first century, and with it the good, the bad, and the unsavory.  Criminals, in increasing numbers, are flocking to the online world as a new source of opportunity crime, the modern version of the pickpocket, praying on those less tech savvy.  With the majority of Americans still somewhat befuddled by computer security, internet crime is a lucrative business.

However, in the world of con-artists and the conned, few stories stand out like that of Janella Spears.

Virtually all internet users have at one time or another received a desperate, if somewhat grammatically flawed plea from the "President of Nigeria" or possibly a banker in Bosnia.  The story varies slightly -- a long lost relative or government official in a war torn country needs your help, but the ends are always the same -- they need your account information to wire money into it, or they need you to wire money to them before they supposedly send you a bigger payday.

While most delete these malicious missives, Mrs. Spears fell for it hook, line, and sinker.  Mrs. Spears insists, though that she's no easy mark -- she's an active registered nurse, CPR trainer, and reverend who has married many couples.  She's even fluent in sign-language, which she uses to communicate with her husband.

Mrs. Spears, though, lost nearly $400,000 USD to the "Nigeria scam" .  When she received the first email, she read that she could receive $20M USD that had belonged to her grandfather.  She insists she would not have believed it, if not for the fact that she had lost track with her grandfather over the years.  She states, "So that's what got me to believe it."

The party asked her to send $100 and she complied.  Then they said there were problems, and they needed more money, but she might get more.  They worked up elaborate stories about how President Bush and FBI Director "Robert Muller" were in on the plans.  They sent her "official" documents and certificates from the Bank of Nigeria and even from the United Nations.

The scammers instructed Mrs. Spears to send $8,300 more, telling her that her reward would rise to $26.6M USD.  She complied.  Many letters followed, each promising more money than the last -- if she would only send a bit more money.  And every time she complied.  Many of the letters were rife with typos, and yet she continued to send in the money, in a case of obsession fueled by greed.

Over the course of the scam she received letters from the President of Nigeria, FBI Director Mueller, and President Bush.  They gave her dire warnings -- if she didn't continue sending the money, it could fall into terrorist hands.  Of course, all the letters were entirely fake.

In the end, Mrs. Spears wiped her husband's bank account dry, mortgaged the house they owned, and took out a lien on their car to finance the payments.  Despite pleas from law enforcement officials, her family and bank officials who told her it was a scam, she sent tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments over the course of two years.  In the end she had lost $400,000 USD, virtually everything she had.

She says it was the perpetual promise that the next payment would lead to the final payoff that kept her going.  It became an obsession.

A seasoned undercover investigator who worked on the case says that Mrs. Spears was blinded by greed.  He says the scam was the worst he's ever seen.  However, he says he's seen others, driven by greed, fall victim to the scam, hoping against common sense for a big payoff.

As for Mrs. Spears, she went public with her story, as she says it serves as a warning to others.  However, in the end, like most outrageous crime stories, it could have been easily prevented if people exercise a bit more common sense.



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Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 8:55:40 AM , Rating: 5
She deserved it, what a moron.




RE: Just Wow
By FITCamaro on 11/18/2008 9:06:53 AM , Rating: 5
Agreed. If you're stupid enough to give it to them, I feel no pity for you.


RE: Just Wow
By wordsworm on 11/18/2008 9:22:42 AM , Rating: 5
I used to do telemarketing.

Ring ring, "Hello."

"Hi, my name is (insert name here), I'm calling in reference to credit cards."

"Oh, I never give my credit card over the phone."

"That's great ma'am/sir. Now, get a piece of paper so that you can write down my badge number, phone number, and name. Thank-you. You know, there are a lot of scammers out there ma'am/sir, and they're ripping poor people off on their credit cards, it's terrible."

"Yes, I know, it's terrible."

"Well, that's why you need to pay for credit card insurance. What is your credit card number ma'am/sir?"

"Oh, hang on... let me get it."

I made a ton of cash for about two weeks before my conscience overrode my desire to make money ($1400 a week is a great deal of money to give up, for me, but I just couldn't handle it). Of course, all American credit cards are required to have insurance automatically given to them. Unfortunately, many Americans don't know any better, and their hyper-paranoia makes them an easy target.

In any case, it's pretty easy to laugh it off to see someone get roped in and lose 400k. But I'm pretty sure if I called your mama and ripped her off of a few hundred when she's barely making it on her pension, you'd be blaming the scammer, and not the scammee.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 9:32:10 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
In any case, it's pretty easy to laugh it off to see someone get roped in and lose 400k. But I'm pretty sure if I called your mama and ripped her off of a few hundred when she's barely making it on her pension, you'd be blaming the scammer, and not the scammee.


Nah, I'd laugh at her and probably tell her she was an idiot. I figure she would probably do the same to me.


RE: Just Wow
By YoshoMasaki on 11/18/2008 1:05:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nah, I'd laugh at her and probably tell her she was an idiot. I figure she would probably do the same to me.
Exactly! Thank you! The fallacy that anything and everything goes as long as it is "me or mine" is so hypocritical it makes my eyes want to bleed. That's the reason we're in this whole financial crisis - greed and hypocrisy. "You and yours" are not automatically the victim in all situations, people. Get over it!


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:07:44 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, I agree. I was complaining about medicare and social security to my mother one day and the general self entitlement in this country. I went on to say that I want them to drop all that crap and put more into education. She then said, wait, we will be retiring soon. I then went on to tell her eventually I would end up being eligible for it, doesn't mean I'm entitled to it.

Hypocrisy runs rampant in this country. It is that "but I want mine" mentality. It is like they regress to children when they think they are entitled to something. I don't deserve hand outs, neither does anyone else. If I do something stupid, my fault, not someone else's.


RE: Just Wow
By Oregonian2 on 11/19/2008 1:50:05 AM , Rating: 5
Although those programs are actually run as pay-as-you-go ones there is some validity I think to someone saying that they paid $200,000 into medicare and social security over their working lifetimes and so they are entitled to receive some of that back.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/08, Rating: -1
RE: Just Wow
By Oregonian2 on 11/19/2008 6:58:35 PM , Rating: 2
You also didn't read what I wrote. It's still a good valid statement even if it's blowing in the wind.


RE: Just Wow
By Jaybus on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By murphyslabrat on 11/18/08, Rating: -1
RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:03:22 AM , Rating: 5
There's a pretty big distinction between the two. This woman was tricked because she was greedy and stupid. She made the decision to send her money, because she thought that it would lead to more easy money.

The woman in your scenario made no such choice.


RE: Just Wow
By afkrotch on 11/18/2008 11:42:43 AM , Rating: 5
Stupid greedy ppl you mean. They kind of fit together with the thieves. If they weren't greedy and were still stupid, odds are high, they wouldn't fall for the scam.

These scams aren't targeting physical aspects of a person. They are targeting their intelligence level and values. Quite different from a 220 lbs man attacking a 120 lbs woman.

If the 220 lbs man came over to the woman and pulled the same type of scam, but instead of on a computer, he did it irl, then I'd say she deserved it.

What happened to listening to the old phrase of "if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is." I must have heard this phrase like a hundred times this year and thousands of times during my life.


RE: Just Wow
By Suntan on 11/18/2008 1:39:47 PM , Rating: 5
Maybe if the 220 lb man had a sign on his car door that said, "throw purse thru open passenger window and I'll put $20 in it."

Your analogy isn't the same thing as the topic at hand.

-Suntan


RE: Just Wow
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 11/21/2008 4:23:07 PM , Rating: 1
What if it was a 215 lb man and a 125 lb woman... would that change everything???


RE: Just Wow
By dosun on 11/18/2008 4:03:52 PM , Rating: 5
Did you miss this part in the article?
quote:
Despite pleas from law enforcement officials, her family and bank officials who told her it was a scam, she sent tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments over the course of two years.


If she had sent money only once, I'd be some of us would feel pity for her. This lady sent money multiple times over the course of a couple years, even after multiple people told her it was a scam. Now her husband's retirement account is empty because of her stupidity. As the old saying goes "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


RE: Just Wow
By Indianapolis on 11/18/2008 11:51:13 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
As the old saying goes "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


I believe the correct saying is:

"Fool me once, shame...shame on...you. Fool me—can't get fooled again!"

From what I understand, it comes from Texas. Or maybe Tennessee.


RE: Just Wow
By FITCamaro on 11/18/2008 12:06:09 PM , Rating: 2
My parents don't have a few thousands dollars to give away much less a few hundred thousand.

My mom I'd never have to worry about anyway. My dad's another story but even he's not that stupid.


RE: Just Wow
By Samus on 11/19/2008 2:53:25 AM , Rating: 3
My friend worked telemarketing for a few weeks selling something legitimate...newspapers. He hated it. He's a bartender now, putting his people skills to good use: spreading happiness through alcohol.


RE: Just Wow
By theapparition on 11/18/2008 11:29:01 AM , Rating: 5
And just think.......people like this can also legally vote.

She should be posterchild for having some sort of intelligence test before being able to elect our leaders.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 11:40:02 AM , Rating: 5
Now we know why we end up with a Republican or Democrat every damn election no matter what, even though they both usually suck terribly.


RE: Just Wow
By theapparition on 11/18/2008 2:13:14 PM , Rating: 5
Amen to that.

I really tried to like either of the canidates we had this year, unfortunately, it usually ends up voting for the one you think won't do the most harm.

Both parties and thier campaigns should be ashamed for the lack of facts and mis-information. However, the ends justify the means, so they think.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:25:26 PM , Rating: 3
Ron Paul 2012? Please?


RE: Just Wow
By Spivonious on 11/18/2008 4:16:22 PM , Rating: 2
I think that if he had switched over to the Lib. party after the primaries, that he would have gotten a lot of votes. Not enough to win, but enough to make it on to the news.


RE: Just Wow
By retrospooty on 11/18/2008 9:08:53 AM , Rating: 3
I like the comment from here... "Spears insists, though that she's no easy mark -- she's an active registered nurse, CPR trainer, and reverend "

LOL - reverend=gullible to the highest possible extent.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 9:29:18 AM , Rating: 2
That's true, if you are so gullible that you fall for religion, chances are you will fall for anything.

A magic man floats around and made everything. He watches you all the time, but gets mad when you break the rules he knew you would break in the first place. He gets tired and has to rest a day after making everything? WHAT!?? He supposedly made everything, but they show him making things in the wrong order to what has been scientifically shown to be the correct order. He condones slavery, human sacrifice, beating women and children through words and actions, but condemns things like eating ham? Just amazing.


RE: Just Wow
By jarman on 11/18/2008 10:25:15 AM , Rating: 4
Wow, no bias there...


RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:04:39 AM , Rating: 5
Bias? What, now everyone is required to be neutral in all matters of opinion?


RE: Just Wow
By rcc on 11/18/2008 11:08:10 AM , Rating: 5
The new creed is that it's only a bias if you disagree with me.


RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:09:26 AM , Rating: 3
But the point is that "bias" isn't a negative, unless you're in a position hat requires objectivity. Most people have opinions, that's ok.


RE: Just Wow
By rcc on 11/18/2008 3:04:42 PM , Rating: 3
You are correct, it's not a negative. But that's the way people use it now. They think a bias is simply something that they don't agree with.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 3:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
It's true, I work for Big Atheist. I own a ham and anti-religious paraphernalia store, so I make out like a bandit if everyone joins my side.

The art of sarcasm, so fun.


RE: Just Wow
By EidolWays on 11/18/2008 10:38:19 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
That's true, if you are so gullible that you fall for religion, chances are you will fall for anything.

I'll probably regret this, as this is the Internet, after all. Flame wars are the 'Net's normal state. But I at least feel the need to try to set the record straight.

quote:
A magic man floats around and made everything. He watches you all the time, but gets mad when you break the rules he knew you would break in the first place.

By your logic, all rules that the rulemakers knew would be broken should not have been made. Parents? Government? Laws and rules are made precisely because the things the laws and rules speak against have been done in the past or are entirely expected to be done. If something would never be attempted, there would never be a law. The point of a law or rule is to attach a consequence to an expected action so that there is an associated cost. In this way, the group at which the rule or law is targeted is less likely to engage in even more dangerous behavior and most will not attempt it at all. Essentially, we have speeding laws which many people break by going a bit over. But the number of people who go 30 over the limit is at least reduced.

quote:
He gets tired and has to rest a day after making everything?
Please explain how you derive from "day of rest" that God was, in fact, tired or unable to continue working without a day to do nothing. I don't remember a mention of it anywhere in the text. Though I dunno about you, but after making the universe, I think He'd have a right to be tired, no? :)

quote:
He supposedly made everything, but they show him making things in the wrong order to what has been scientifically shown to be the correct order.
If you take evolutionary theory as the baseline, then yes. The Bible obviously wasn't written with such a view in mind. This gets back to the whole evolution vs. religion debate that sets more forums aflame on the Internet than I care to count, and I am NOT trying to start a science vs. religion debate here. But obviously whichever you accept as truth, the Bible or evolution, doubt is cast upon the literal account of the other.

quote:
He condones slavery, human sacrifice, beating women and children through words and actions, but condemns things like eating ham?

Please provide verses or references wherein slavery and human sacrifice are condoned or sanctioned. Regarding beating women, there is no such command to beat or denigrate them. For beating children? If you consider spanking to be beating, then perhaps. But never is humiliation or denigration condoned.

Also, the rule against ham was made for the protection of the people. Keep in mind that pork can contain parasites that, if not killed by proper cooking, can be quite painful or even lethal. As such, several millennia ago, it would have been difficult to ensure that the meat had been properly cooked. Thus, ham was ruled out as a food source simply to protect the people.


RE: Just Wow
By retrospooty on 11/18/2008 10:47:58 AM , Rating: 2
MAybe he should have put it more hte way I would put it...

To have fallen for religion in the pre-modern age is understandable... But now that science has proven the world is 4.5 billion years old and we evolved from earlier lifeforms, if you still believe some "god" zapped us into being 6000 years ago you are quite the moron.

With that said, I am not "un-religious". I believe there is a higher order to the universe than anything mankind currently understands... But if you believe in the western religions (Christian/Judaism/Islam) you are one tree short of a hammock.


RE: Just Wow
By EidolWays on 11/18/2008 10:55:34 AM , Rating: 3
I must admit that it bothers me that any and all other accomplishments seem to be discounted in your assertion. So no matter what feats of intelligence one achieves, whether academic or personal, a belief in a "western religion" automatically reduces you to a moron?


RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:06:16 AM , Rating: 5
How do you feel about an adult who believes in the Tooth Fairy?


RE: Just Wow
By spread on 11/18/2008 12:16:37 PM , Rating: 5
Barrister Frank,

I am the Nigerian Tooth Fairy, my name is Mojumba. I was looking through our accounts and I saw that we owe you $20,000 for services not rendered. The money is locked at the National Nigeria Bank. I require $500 for fees to the bank. Please send $500 and your account so we can wire the money to you.

Please send now. Time is urgent!

Sincerely,
Mojumba
Tooth Fairy


RE: Just Wow
By Lifted on 11/18/2008 1:06:16 PM , Rating: 5
Dear Mojumba,

I was about to send you the money and my account details until I noticed your previous correspondence is free of the numerous typos I have seen when dealing with other Nigerian bankers who I am in the process of helping to recover funds. This leads me to believe you are merely a native English speaker pretending to be a Nigerian banker for the sole purpose of scamming me. Get a life, moran!

Regards,
GWB


RE: Just Wow
By teko on 11/18/2008 2:52:26 PM , Rating: 4
Dear GWB,

We, Nigerian Tooth Fairies, have now been using the Fiery Fox web browser. It has a great spell checking feature.

Please do not worry; trust my associate, Mojumba. He is very well trusted, and the fairest among all tooth fairies in Nigeria. Also, your new president, Obama, is a close brother of ours. You can put your trust in us.

We have double-checked your account with the National Nigeria Bank. We believe we can also claim for additional interests, up to $25,000. However, for this, we will need an extra $1,250 for additional fees.

Please send us the money, so we can wire the money to you.

With regards,
Majumbo
Mojumba & Majumbo Tooth Fairy Association


RE: Just Wow
By stirfry213 on 11/18/2008 1:21:15 PM , Rating: 2
Thats not nearly convincing enough without the typos, the least you could have done is mispelled his name!


RE: Just Wow
By retrospooty on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/18/2008 10:56:00 AM , Rating: 3
Strawmanning the arguement up to generalize almost half the world's population by equivocating fundamental Christianity/Judaism/Islam to all forms and flavors thereof is unreasonable.

I'm normally on the same page as you, spooty, and I'm not defending any particular faith here, but let's be reasonable - not all of these folks really believe that we were zapped into being 6,000 years ago.

We've all had the chance to speak our minds on the matter, so let's all let this thread die before it goes too far south.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 4:18:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
not all of these folks really believe that we were zapped into being 6,000 years ago.
Would you prefer dropped like it was hot?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By sld on 11/18/2008 2:18:49 PM , Rating: 2
"Science has proven"?

You read a lot of science articles on tech sites like Dailytech, right?

And you don't exhibit the same level of healthy scepticism towards the theory of evolution as you do (or at least I hope you do) experimental science.

You may want to brush up your science by reading up a little on Information Theory, Probability Theory, Nucleotide hydrolysis AND the full detail of the Miller-Urey Experiment.

Better to talk about science when we actually have the knowledge to back it up, ain't that right?


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 4:21:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Better to talk about science when we actually have the knowledge to back it up, ain't that right?
Well, since you put it that way, I better get on to church this Sunday.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 11:15:15 AM , Rating: 4
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/slavery.htm...

Enjoy that. Especially love this gem, "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.".

http://www.thoughtzone.net/more-misogyny-from-the-...

Do you honestly follow this garbage?

http://www.openbible.info/topics/human_sacrifice

Nothing like bible condoned sacrifice.

http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/christ...

He made them, yet he hates them, makes you wonder why he keeps making them? Or why it occurs at times in nature on it's own? Or why the brains of homosexuals are actually built more like the opposite sex?

As for your other silliness, to have complete power to create as desired, yet you create something that will inherently break your laws and you know it would be masochistic at best. Omnipotence would mean you already know everything that will happen. He knows all this, yet he just does it anyway?

If you question evolution beyond the specifics, I wonder about your general intelligence or lack there of. Of course I am talking about the general idea, as they can show that happens, they just can't prove every last bit of it, cause they have yet to reproduce the beginning factors (come on LHC, come back up!).

I believe that people are better than "god". I believe you are better than this silly "god". Your god thinks you are so stupid that you can't be told that pork can contain parasites if not cooked and stored properly? Religion is the reason ignorance has been propagated so long and I would love to see it stop.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just say why? Why does he not protect from the many other problems that can happen? Chicken can cause issues, so can fish. Many plants and things of that nature can cause serious issues, why no warnings?

It was added by some people that saw that pork was killing people, so they threw it in there cause they didn't know the real cause. A "god" would have known the real cause, cause he would have made it exist.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 12:13:06 PM , Rating: 2
What I find funny with all of this is that men blame easily the bible for many things yet the bible was written by men, so what gives?

What about human sacrifice in the bible, your own government sends thousands of soldiers everywhere knowing perfectly well some will die and yet no complains, the army itself is about sacrificing yourself for someone else.

"Religion is the reason ignorance has been propagated so long and I would love to see it stop."
You're so incorrect... many of discoveries man made were done by religious people, actually for a long time it was the church that stored and maintained works from "scientists", and let's not even mention the fact that religion served has common point between men and men is much less likely to make war with someone he shares something than with a complete stranger.


RE: Just Wow
By spread on 11/18/2008 12:18:06 PM , Rating: 1
Sources please.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 12:38:13 PM , Rating: 1
He has none, like most religious proofs, not a bit of evidence.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 4:42:03 PM , Rating: 2
lmao cause now if I defend something that obviously makes me one of them...

Evidence of what that religious people made many discoveries? go look into wikipedia or something I'm not your teacher... Mendel is the only name you'll get from me and there are many others.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 4:53:16 PM , Rating: 1
The burden of proof is on the presenter of a belief. I never said you believe it, you are trying to justify it one way or another, so in turn, your lack of proof will be attacked. If they had real proof of god, it would have made top headlines every other week, but they don't.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/19/2008 8:23:57 AM , Rating: 2
And didn't I point you Mendel... what other proof you want that religious people made discoveries.

Anti-matter was believed to exist long before being "seen", the same with the big bang which can only be an hypothesis and so on, science has long gone beyond the "you have to see it".


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:13:51 AM , Rating: 1
You don't understand the scientific method, please just stop. They theorized anti-matter because of other things that linked to it. Granted I'm not a cosmologist or physicist, so I will not sit here and pretend I can explain it as clearly, but they had nukes before they understood how they worked because they knew that the thing was there, they just couldn't explain it at the time. The point is they have proof for the thing existing, they just can't properly view or prove it at the time.

Science always has and always will be the seeking of truth, not the ultimate knowing.

Einstein was religious, Darwin was religious, that wasn't the proof we were looking for.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/20/2008 8:08:25 PM , Rating: 2
"They theorized anti-matter because of other things that linked to it."
No it came from a mathematical equation that just like x^2 could have 2 possible solutions a positive and a negative, at the time the solution was always positive, there was nothing liked to it besides mathematics.

"The point is they have proof for the thing existing, they just can't properly view or prove it at the time."
So what gives do they have the proof or not ?...

"Einstein was religious, Darwin was religious, that wasn't the proof we were looking for."
Really I mean your whole idea turns around how religious people are stupid and what not, I don't see why is it hard to you to accept that people can be religious and not brain dead...


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 12:35:16 PM , Rating: 2
Probably because they ran everything. If they never existed, it would have happened, most likely much smoother with less "witch burnings" if you will. You make a bunch of random assumptions with what you are saying here.

You compare men to a god? This god is supposed to be omnipotent and follow the laws he set for us. Even better, we were supposedly made in his image, which means he is an ass to boot.

"He" clearly condones this behavior, so would you expect any less? Actions speak louder than words my friend. Not that I believe any of this garbage, but if you wanted to make a book about yourself with all the rules someone has to follow and you happened to be omnipotent, would you allow it to be altered or written incorrectly? Written by men is no excuse when it is the "word of god".

If you assume part of it is wrong, how do you decide which parts? The parts you don't like? Man wrote it, yet you follow it? You are preaching to the choir on it being written by men, it was written years after Jesus lived and no direct witnesses wrote the bible. Even better, it was written in Greek at the time, but they spoke Aramaic at the time of Jesus.

It is a facade, the sooner everyone wakes up and realizes that is the sooner we can finally rid our lives of superstition, biblical teachings, backwards beliefs, etc. etc. and start really pushing science and logic. Most religious people aren't completely dumb, they are just gullible or they have been conditioned to shut off logic whenever religion comes up.

Two things that should be talked about, religion and politics are the two things they tell you not to talk about, fitting. The holes in each can be seen by any bit of logic, but not talking about them lets them progress on.


RE: Just Wow
By Ringold on 11/18/2008 2:27:40 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
If they never existed, it would have happened, most likely much smoother with less "witch burnings" if you will.


quote:
It is a facade, the sooner everyone wakes up and realizes that is the sooner we can finally rid our lives of superstition, biblical teachings, backwards beliefs, etc. etc. and start really pushing science and logic.


The one thing I would point out is that religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or the varied religions that preceded them, gave structure to a young civilization that previously knew what amounted to gang warfare, right? And even in our nomadic time, I thought we've found evidence of early spiritualism. The moral codes advanced by religion are useful and common sense in a large community. Don't steal. Don't attack people unprovoked. Don't lie. These things created what could be called social capital, or a type of economic advantage that is beyond labor skills and capital equipment. This social capital, which arises from stability, harmony, trust among individuals, etc, is why bureaucratic India manages to thrive despite its government bottlenecks. An African country may not have as rigid a government, but they don't prosper because people run around with AK-47s instead of morals.

Perhaps religion doesn't always make sense, but I'm not aware of anywhere that managed to do well without it. Religion isn't completely without value, either present or historical.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 3:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
It has been shown in tribes with no real "religion" to speak of, morals are built into them. They were asked why they don't steal another mans things, almost all of them responded that they did not want to be exiled or shunned by their fellow tribe members. Not a religious deity or silly book has that kind of control.

This I promise, if people who committed crimes were socially shunned and treated as trash or just exiled, crime would drop more than instituting religion. The problem is people who commit crime in this country are revered, ogled and idolized. People watch their every move, they become famous. The bigger the crime, the bigger the prize when they get caught.

Africa's problem is they never have fought for anything. They were taken advantage of by damn near everyone, including their own people. Many people of Europe, the Middle East, America all took advantage of Africa. I haven't looked, but I'm sure some of the Asian countries got in on it as well.

It is animal nature to try to dominate the weak, especially when you throw that pack mentality that is a dominating country in the mix.

I would have to see quite a bit more proof that religion did anything that could be called "good" before I change any of my statements. Even then, more bad than good.


RE: Just Wow
By Myg on 11/21/2008 7:13:00 PM , Rating: 2
Ever tried praying? If you do it genuinely, it may suprise you.

Otherwise; you lot in the US (assume your there) will always suffer this problem of interpretations/etc..

Its just built into your nation (Founding fathers were mainly Protestants), you can't escape it with Atheism, acting like you don't care etc; you can only deal with it...

The writers of the Bible didn't and don't take the Old testament literally.


RE: Just Wow
By v3rt1g0 on 11/24/2008 12:13:09 PM , Rating: 2
> The writers of the Bible didn't and don't take the Old testament literally.

Oh, ho, ho! You are quite mistaken.
Have you spoken with any bible historians? The old testament is the 'inspired word of god' according to them. You really think sheep herders over two thousand years ago knew any better? Really?


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 5:09:11 PM , Rating: 2
"If they never existed, it would have happened"
and later by the same fellow
"You make a bunch of random assumptions with what you are saying here."
I can not stop laughing...

"would you allow it to be altered or written incorrectly"
Why not, god gifted men with freedom of choice, if god had now to correct the bible then he would have a lot of work knowing that the meaning of words keep changing...

"Man wrote it, yet you follow it?"
I don't follow anything, what I'm trying to tell you is that men made the bible, and if it wasn't the bible it would be something else.

"Most religious people aren't completely dumb, they are just gullible"
How nice... you just badmouthed most people that live on this planet and that believe in some kind of superior "entity" be it the Christ or not... you're just amazing you should do your own sect, maybe you already did and you're trying to get me into it, try harder next time dude.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:35:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why not, god gifted men with freedom of choice, if god had now to correct the bible then he would have a lot of work knowing that the meaning of words keep changing...


So, by your own admittance, the entire bible could be wrong and maybe he wanted you to do things completely different? For all you know one of the 7 deadly sins was clog dancing and they changed them. Even better, god has a lot of work? Does he get sleepy or exhausted and need a breather to blink things into existence?

My own sect of what? Atheism? The lack of belief isn't really a belief at all, it is the lack there of.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/19/2008 8:26:55 AM , Rating: 3
You are here bashing religions and trying to rely people to your cause, not much different than a sect.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:18:00 AM , Rating: 2
So, do I take it that you agree with my statement? Cause it is clear you have no real counter argument. In the end I bash believing in anything with no real proof or logical steps even leading up to the idea. That's like me saying fairies are the reason gravity exists, clearly there is no reason to believe this and many people would demolish this belief.

Granted we still don't know 100% how gravity works, but would it make sense to you for us to jump to such a mystical and silly conclusion over common sense?


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/20/2008 7:52:11 PM , Rating: 2
And you are free to think that fairies do that, you know freedom of thought is something that not even your government can stop you from, and then there's this other thing about respecting other believes...

Also common sense and science don't go hand in hand very often they go on opposite direction.


RE: Just Wow
By BikeDude on 11/18/2008 12:47:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
many of discoveries man made were done by religious people


In a sense... Yes. E.g. Darwin was religious at first. But after spending the best part of his life studying all the evidence, he eventually became an atheist.

quote:
it was the church that stored and maintained works from "scientists"


I have heard no such thing. For the most part, the church have been busy opposing scientists who present theories not backed by the children tales found in the bible. E.g. the Earth is not the center of the world -- that one caused quite a commotion, even though other civilizations knew this fact several thousand years prior to Galilei. Navigating the sea was a problem for those sea captains who agreed with the priests' literal interpretation of the bible at the time. (navigate a globe as if it is a flat surface? That would not have gotten the vikings very far)

The Catholic church wisely chose to accept the theory of evolution. But... Regardless of what you say, one fact remains: The idea of a divine being, is just that, an idea. It is not a theory. The simple truth is that the church of the flying spaghettimonster makes just as much sense as the christian belief system (or the hindu for that matter).

The bible is a tool to govern the stupid part of the population. Since 90% of the population are brain dead, it works quite well. Bush used his personal faith and called 'crusade' before invading Afghanistan. Nice. It still works.

I am not saying that you should not be kind to thy neighbour and not covet his ass. Denouncing any and all deities does not mean you can't have morals of your own.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 12:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
Preach brother, preach! Stuff like this reminds me that other people out there aren't crazy and actually use facts and logic to dictate what they believe and determine truth.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 5:45:59 PM , Rating: 2
"In a sense... Yes. E.g. Darwin was religious at first."
Darwin is just one, there's also Mendel, Boyle, Descartes and many others.

I don't see how by removing religion now the 90% brain dead people would all of the suddenly become smart or whatever, they didn't become brain dead cause of religion and I can bet there are many brain dead people on the atheist side as well.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 4:28:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
many of discoveries man made were done by religious people, actually for a long time it was the church that stored and maintained works from "scientists"
You mean like they did in the Dark Ages?

quote:
and let's not even mention the fact that religion served has common point between men and men is much less likely to make war with someone he shares something than with a complete stranger.
Kind of like how Muslims and Christians get along.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 5:49:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kind of like how Muslims and Christians get along.

And what do Muslims and Christians share? ya they are both religious but it's not the same religion you know that don't you.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 7:11:14 PM , Rating: 2
Well, if he was intending his comment to be that general then I "share" many things with many people also. Like farting or not washing my hands after I take a piss.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 8:03:17 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that Islam was derived from Christianity, right? Jesus is quoted many times in the Koran. If you can't see the similarities between Islam, Judaism and Christianity, you sir are blind. They are derivatives of each other, they share the same god for Pete's sake.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/19/2008 8:46:10 AM , Rating: 2
Some similarities and many differences... people that follow the same religion will always share more points in common that people who don't.
Do you realize that your country is only a country cause most of its people decided at one point to follow the same laws, same convictions and what not, regardless of the fact that the US was colonized by the English and others it still fought them back.

And Christianity itself borrowed a lot from other religions, what does it matter it's not cause we all speak that all of the suddenly I'll identify myself with any of you.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:21:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some similarities and many differences... people that follow the same religion will always share more points in common that people who don't.


So you admit they are basically the same damn thing?

You are literally just ranting at this point, really leading nowhere. Clearly you are in the classic religious position which is "I don't have an argument, so I will rant about nothing to avoid using logic and destroy my beliefs". Just admit you believe in something with no proof or logical backing and I am fine with you believing in anything, just don't look at people funny when they don't follow you're cult.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/20/2008 7:44:10 PM , Rating: 2
Are you just stupid or what ? Diamonds and graphite are made exactly of the same matter yet they are different, if you think not I'll gladly exchange all the graphite I have against your diamonds.


RE: Just Wow
By fcx56 on 11/18/2008 1:59:54 PM , Rating: 3
While I tend to agree with you, just to play the devil's advocate, when I read this part of your post:
quote:
Your god thinks you are so stupid that you can't be told that pork can contain parasites if not cooked and stored properly?

The first thing I thought of was that we just read an article about Janella Spears, a grown woman so stupid that she would place a lien on her car and liquidate every valuable in her and her deaf husband's possession to pay close to a half of a million dollars to people from a country she's never been to, who she's never met, who somehow know her grandfather and possess his $20M+ inheritance for her thousands of miles away even though they speak little or no english, and wait, the Presidents of two seperate countries were involved! and the FBI! all over her grandfather!........ hmmm, let's just let this one digest.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:12:19 PM , Rating: 2
Ha, truly great. But I mean the general level of intelligence. On top of that, notice how she uses her religion and nursing as a means to somehow prove she isn't easily fooled? Talk about irony. The person who got fooled by some guy is the same person that is a reverend at church and fools people every day to believe in a magic man and give them money. Let that digest as well, ha.


RE: Just Wow
By sld on 11/18/2008 2:20:28 PM , Rating: 2
Dude..

God didn't institute human sacrifice, us modern day humans did. Heard of something called abortion ?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:31:03 PM , Rating: 2
Please just die. Child up until about 1 year old has the intelligence and awareness of a house plant. Even past that it isn't much to write home about. Science trumps you every time, stop using religion to try to sculpt someones view of things. Logic dictates a person is not a person until they are self aware, babies don't get that joy till around 1-2.

Also, yes, he encourages and advocates human sacrifice throughout the bible. You are a fucking retard, you don't read and you don't even understand what human sacrifice is.


RE: Just Wow
By Spivonious on 11/18/2008 4:26:42 PM , Rating: 3
WTF? Have you ever spent any time with a baby? Please stay away from children.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 4:49:45 PM , Rating: 1
It is a fact you idiot, basing your belief on "spending time" with something does not trump scientific evidence.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:06:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
WTF? Have you ever spent any time with a baby? Please stay away from children.
If you don't understand, just ask. Too many people don't ask questions and just form opinions with no knowledge whatsoever.


RE: Just Wow
By JediJeb on 11/18/2008 4:49:04 PM , Rating: 1
If you can show me one verse in the Bible where God actually had someone commit human sacrifice and said it was good then I will believe you. But I know there is no place where God condones one person killing another person as a sacrafice.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:04:08 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.ht...

There are multiple, but here is a fun one.

In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me."

Also too good to pass up, this one is a classic. Remember, "god" is omnipotent, so he knew who it would be before he did.

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Human%20Sacrif...

Enjoy that as well.