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Many of the nice features that will be included into the final Windows 7 release were missing in the pre-beta, but will soon be on there way. Among these is the dramatically improved task bar.
Microsoft's new OS is shaping up nicely but numerous reports target some critical spots for improvement

Initial reaction to an early report that Microsoft's Windows 7 might share similar performance and compatibility issues with Windows Vista was mixed and heated.  Some lamented the inability of running Vista adequately on netbooks or older work computers, while others pointed to the OS's track record. 

Due to the strong response, it certainly seems worthwhile to dig into this topic and offer some second thoughts, as well as get some second opinions, to ascertain if InfoWorld's Randall Kennedy was off base, or possibly onto something when he called Windows 7 a "virtual twin of Vista when it comes to performance."

First, let's examine two other early reviews of the pre-Beta of the OS.  These reviews come from the blogging staff of PC World and PC Pro, two publications which typically use and appreciate Windows, despite giving it criticism where criticism is due (though both also feature numerous columns from primary Mac and Linux users).

First of all, PC Pro echoes InfoWorld's sentiments to some extent, stating, "
And the net effect? Surprisingly little. At this stage of development, over a year from release, Windows 7 looks almost identical to Vista."

However, the publications points out that many of the upgrades to the OS touted at the PDC and WinHEC -- such as the improved task bar and the improved SSD support -- were not yet supported.  Thus it is very reasonable to believe that some at least minor performance improvements may be in store as well.

They also offer up an interesting observation, which at first seems to be a contradiction.  They state, "Yet Windows 7 does already offer one compelling advantage over Vista: it’s fast. Both our senior pontificators were struck by how nimble Windows 7 feels after you’re used to its predecessor. As Tim Danton writes, 'Vista was never this nippy. You press on an icon and it leaps into action. . . . I can’t remember using any new OS that was this quick.'"

"Fast" they say?  Didn't they just say that it came up short in their benchmarks, failing to improve upon Vista.  The publication aptly points out that the user interface is what has been dramatically tweaked and supercharged.  They point out that the average user doesn't care about benchmarks -- they judge the package by the performance (the wrapping).  Improving this is something PC Pro calls an "inspired move".  It may be something Apple realized some time ago with OS X, but then again, Apple always grossly underperformed against Windows in key sectors like business software, security, gaming, and the most important metric of all -- price.

PC World (carrying a ComputerWorld piece) offers a second perspective on this new OS which promises to add a zippier interface to Window's solid underlying layer.  This publication again echoes the sentiments of the others, stating, "Microsoft would like you to believe that Windows 7 is going to be the next great desktop operating system. It's not."

While likening Windows 7’s relation to Vista to Windows 98 Second Edition's and Windows 98, this publication does soften the blow a bit by acknowledging that it is a significant improvement over Windows Vista.  However, the author later goes on to say when he closes, "All things considered, I'd rather stick with my Linux desktops and Mac OS X."

However, another ComputerWorld reviewer, while agreeing with the repeated theme that base benchmarks are similar to Vista, says that this time Microsoft "gets it right".  The author points out the dramatically improved (and less annoying) UAC feature.  They also mention the improved networking support, and other significant improvements.

So there are a couple of second opinions -- one enthusiastic, one rather pessimistic.  Wrapping up, let’s look at three key things: the merits of testing this early build, (briefly) whether Vista was as bad as some say, and lastly what Microsoft needs to do before Windows 7's release (or risk losing customers).

First, many will question why these veteran computer publications are choosing to test a pre-beta, essentially alpha software, when it’s obvious that performance in the finished product may be dramatically different.  While the merits of such tests are certainly debatable, the fact that the Windows 7 release date is likely less than a year away does give an understandable justification for such tests.  Further, criticism of Windows Vista's pre-betas closely mirrored the criticism of the finished product, as can be seen by perusing past reviews.

But how bad was Vista really?  Honestly, Vista was a pretty good OS.  The vast majority of DailyTech staff have at least one Vista machine in the house.  While the OS certainly had its limitations, it brought dramatic improvements to the Windows GUIs and security.  The OS's biggest problem, for the home user was something Microsoft can't be blamed for -- poor hardware partner support

The one place where Windows Vista perhaps fell noticeably short was in business adoption.  While it’s true every generation of Windows OS is met with groans and moans from the business community who say that they can't fit it on their older hardware and networks, Windows Vista pushed the memory, network, and processor use envelope even more than XP did.  And while it brought a lot of compelling features to the table, this seriously hurt its business adoption.

This leads into a final point -- what can Windows 7 do to improve between now and its final release?  Obviously, incorporating the missing features demoed at WinHEC and PDC is not only a must, but is a virtual certainty.  Past that, though, Microsoft needs to ensure that hardware and software partners are holding up their end with compatibility.  Again, these problems, mentioned in the original article are not problems from Microsoft, but they become Microsoft's headaches. 

Finally, and most importantly, something has to be done to allow the OS to run leaner and use less memory and system resources.  Otherwise Windows 7 will likely miss the boat on adoption in two key sectors -- netbooks and the business community.  And this would be truly a shame, since Windows 7 looks to offer a number of tempting features.



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Thank You!
By LinkRS on 11/12/2008 10:12:57 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
But how bad was Vista really? Honestly, Vista was a pretty good OS. The vast majority of DailyTech staff have at least one Vista machine in the house. While the OS certainly had its limitations, it brought dramatic improvements to the Windows GUIs and security. The OS's biggest problem, for the home user was something Microsoft can't be blamed for -- poor hardware partner support.


This is what I have been saying sine January 1997! It is just sad that Windows 7 may fail before it starts because of the misinformation and bias against Windows Vista.




RE: Thank You!
By kkwst2 on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By Amiga500 on 11/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By nosfe on 11/12/2008 10:38:18 AM , Rating: 3
for me its superfetch, photoshop starts up in about 5 seconds on my crappy hdd(~20mb/s transfer speeds max, usually only ~16mb/s)


RE: Thank You!
By AntDX316 on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By rudolphna on 11/12/2008 5:21:53 PM , Rating: 3
Huh funny. Im running Vista Premium on a Pentium 4 3Ghz, 2GB PC2700, with a Radeon 2600xt, and it runs just as fast, if not faster than XP did. Its more responsive IMHO than XP.


RE: Thank You!
By headbox on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By rudolphna on 11/12/2008 9:53:57 PM , Rating: 2
Actually I do. I take good care of my computers and keep them clean. I install the minimum crapware necessary. I build computers for people, and fix them when they need fixing, so I know what Im doing


RE: Thank You!
By Arribajuan on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By Belard on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By Cunthor666 on 11/12/2008 5:35:52 PM , Rating: 4
Superfetch is great. I only noticed how slow my dad's laptop was with XP (similar hardware tho) to my one with Vista, after not using XP for over a year now. Not to mention having no need to run any AV programs.

Another point (from article)
quote:
But how bad was Vista really? Honestly, Vista was a pretty good OS.


Was? It still is!


RE: Thank You!
By StevoLincolnite on 11/12/2008 10:59:44 PM , Rating: 5
When I got Vista installed on my old Test Rig (Pentium 4 1.8ghz @ 2.4ghz, 1024mb of ram and a Radeon 9800XT) - The first thing I did was Disable all services I didn't require, I had no Printer on the machine... So I disabled that and so on and so on... The point is I would have rather services in general to be set to Disabled completely, and only activate when you are performing a function that requires it, thus on older based machines this would have been beneficial performance wise and might have helped with notebooks to conserve power as there is less processing going on.

Unfortunately there are so many services which are enabled by default like the Wireless Zero Configuration despite not having a Wireless adapter installed this service was still using resources, which on an Ancient machine means reduction in performance, would have been nice if it was disabled and only enabled when something calls for it.

Vista wasn't a bad operating system, it had it's issues which all Operating systems have, but it also had allot of good points, I think Microsoft did an excellent job personally, Creating an Operating system like Windows isn't something that can be done over night, it's a highly complicated piece of software, which no other Operating system can match when it comes to pure Compatibility with Hardware and Software.


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 2:59:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
for me its superfetch, photoshop starts up in about 5 seconds on my crappy hdd(~20mb/s transfer speeds max, usually only ~16mb/s)

In my opinion, this should be solved by Adobe, not worked around by MS. The problem is that the PC industry keeps on going with unoptimized bloat.
With every version the runtime/startup for each application is increased more than the HW could decrease it. Example: win98 on a 3GB HDD had the same startup for me as a Win2K on a 15GB newer (+5years) HDD (I'm actually comparing only the HDDs).
Think how fast would be to use Win98 on a high-end PC if drivers would be available. And 98 does not have any superfetch.


RE: Thank You!
By JasonMick (blog) on 11/12/2008 10:44:23 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
1. What does Vista do better than a well patched XP using 3rd party anti-virus and firewalls?


Not having to rely on third party anti-virus protection, firewalls, and diligent patching.

To you or I, these precautions may have seemed common sense, but to the average home user you're talking alien speak there.

quote:
2. Are those improvements (if they exist) worth the money in both software and hardware upgrades?


To the average user the biggest improvements are better security and a nicer interface like I said. A lot of the problems like hardware compatibility have been removed, so I'd say Vista is definitely the best buy on the market today.

Its by no means perfect or even outstanding, but that doesn't stop it from being the best buy; compared to bug-prolific, complex Linux or insecure, uncompatible OS X (both of which may still be better solutions for SOME user segments), its the best OS for the general public.

quote:
bout the only thing Vista has over XP was DirectX10


That's just showing how out of touch you are with the general public.

The majority of users don't have gaming cards that can even come close to fully exploiting Direct X 10, and certainly not when Vista was first released. And most users aside from hardcore gamers really won't experience that much excitement going from DX9 to DX10.

I can understand where you're coming from, but understand your opinion is not the average user's perspective.


RE: Thank You!
By tential on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By FITCamaro on 11/12/2008 11:05:22 AM , Rating: 5
Vista is far more secure than XP. In XP, you have to run on an Admin account to do anything. And many people are stupid enough to run without a password. Which leaves the system wide open. With Vista you don't. You can modify anything under any account provided you have the admin password. But you can still run programs from the protected space of a more limited account.

The kernel itself is also more secure with the only hooks into it being those that the damn AV manufacturers sued Microsoft into putting in.

DX10 is a nice step and DX11 will definitely be nice. Are gamers supposed to be held back because the majority of people don't care about games. Windows has always been the gamers OS so why not move things forward. Yes many games still don't use DX10 to its full effect (largely from many people still being on XP). But that doesn't mean it isn't better.

Windows 7 supposedly was running fine on a netbook. So hopefully that means they've trimmed down on the required memory.


RE: Thank You!
By Murloc on 11/12/2008 1:25:56 PM , Rating: 3
I like vista more only because of that search bar in the start menu, you write there the name of the application and you get the icon. It dramatically speeds up your work.


RE: Thank You!
By Belard on 11/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By Garreye on 11/13/2008 11:21:20 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
The "Search" function of vista is useless for anything but your own documents. Looking for LOST DLL, or where a program might have installed itself... nope.


That is because by default Vista only indexes your document/start menu locations. If you want it to index your entire computer, so that you can run fast searches for any file/directory than it is entirely possible. Maybe have a look at the control panel once in a while before you criticize.


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 11:33:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The "Search" function of vista is useless for anything but your own documents.


We must be coming at this from polar opposites. I absolutely love Spotlight under OS X but it needs to be trained to ignore system files otherwise they tend to clutter up your results. In contrast, this sounds to be what you want. Based on the descriptions given, I'd suggest that Vista has the better default configuration since your average user is not going to wanting to search for anything other than their own documents and files.


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 3:17:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Vista is far more secure than XP. In XP, you have to run on an Admin account to do anything.

This was discussed already somewhere. For the security of XP, MS is only 50% guilty. They did not have any security during DOS/Win3/win9x era, so when NT-based OSes came, all non-corporate developers still used and tested apps under admin account (I'm talking about small companies who never had contact with big corporations). Also, XP's and 2K's default account after installation was admin. So when an app was deployed to the customer, the programmer was not interested in limited user accounts, and possibly forced the client to use admin account. That's why all the malware had time to develop and spread.

Also, I work for 3 years in a corporation and I can tell you that I can do my work without admin account. UAC would not help me here. The only problem I have with my work PC is the startup time because of domain controller, roaming profiles etc. Also, while I tested Vista, I saw that I cannot go in computer management and run it as limited user (I wanted to only see if the IDE controller was using DMA or not). UAC appeared and there was no option to "continue with limited permissions".


RE: Thank You!
By quiksilvr on 11/12/2008 10:58:52 AM , Rating: 5
I really like this article, but really if all Vista has going for it for the general public is a nice GUI than it really falls short. First off, there exists Vista skins with the Aero interface available for XP. I use it now and my computer looks almost exactly like Vista (except for the search bar). In my opinion, Vista isn't bad, but there really isn't point upgrading if you have XP. You don't have to worry if you buy a NEW computer with Vista but really if you have XP, I say keep it.


RE: Thank You!
By quiksilvr on 11/12/2008 8:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
I really just realized that I said really a real lot...really.


RE: Thank You!
By Targon on 11/12/2008 8:59:33 PM , Rating: 2
While Vista may not provide really amazing new features that stand out, the 100 or so tweaks and improvements over Windows XP are what make it feel a bit better. Keep in mind that you will want 2GB or RAM or more to get acceptable performance though.

This is where certain people will complain about Vista while others have no problem with it. If you have a low end system with 1GB of RAM or less, then chances are you have Windows XP on the machine already. There is no good reason to upgrade from XP to Vista, but at the same time, most people should not be afraid of Vista either as long as there is enough memory to handle it.

In the past, those with a low end system(compared to new systems available at the time) have ALWAYS complained that the new OS was slower. Windows XP did NOT run well on computers with only 128MB of RAM(though Dell still sold a lot of systems with that little memory). Then again, XP didn't even run great with 256MB of RAM. 512MB or 1GB was the preferred amount. The same goes with processing power and such.

So, if your computer is already considered slow, why would you throw a more memory and processing power hungry OS at it? These days, a dual-core processor and 2GB are considered low end, so it's not all that big a deal.


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 3:28:53 AM , Rating: 2
But do the new "features" really justify the RAM (an probably CPU) usage? I say "not". Look at current ubuntu (8.10). I was really surpised to see the compiz WM (3d desktop) when I booted the livecd on a 3GHz P4 with Intel (I think 945) graphics and 512MB RAM. And I did not see high memory usage. Compiz is a small-memory-footprint WM that makes a big impression.
The memory usage increase of 2K->XP was way smaller than XP->Vista. AND IT'S NOT JUSTIFIED.

So the question is: do they make bad code just to push higher-end systems? I think this practice just showed it's weakness when "ultra-small PC" are feasible.


RE: Thank You!
By Calin on 11/13/2008 2:56:13 AM , Rating: 2
The advanced search bar is available for XP


RE: Thank You!
By Belard on 11/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By Screwballl on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By FITCamaro on 11/12/2008 11:14:46 AM , Rating: 5
Well considering people who call tech support aren't calling to say "THIS PRODUCT IS GREAT!", I'd expect 90% to be upset and hating the product.


RE: Thank You!
By Aloonatic on 11/12/2008 11:30:29 AM , Rating: 5
A lot of people are saying that Vista isn't different enough to XP.

So does that make Vista = XPV2, so Win7 = XPV3?

But then XP was Windows 2000 (W2K) with a nice skin.

So XP = W2KV2, therefore Vista (XPV2) = W2KV3, Win7 = W2KV4?

For the record, I'm using W2KV3SP1 to type this comment :D


RE: Thank You!
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 11:41:20 AM , Rating: 3
Haha so true!

The same arguments we are listing today were always raised 8 years ago upon the release of XP when compared to 98 (which ran games faster remember....) and 2000.. and then again when Vista was released with comparisons to XP.

I assume we will be going over the same thing upon the next release after 7..


RE: Thank You!
By daniyarm on 11/12/2008 11:52:27 AM , Rating: 2
This is a perfect example of how a good working product gets blamed for everything just because of bad publicity.
I know at leat 10 people at work that hate Vista and talk crap about it, but yet non of them have ever used it. I have used it since the day it came out and guess what, not a single BSOD. I could blue screen my XP without even trying hard.
The only problems our IT guys have had with Vista was compatibility with older software and that was the reason it wasn't deployed. Now that all the vendors have released new version, everything seems to be fine and we upgrading to Vista next year.


RE: Thank You!
By Doormat on 11/12/2008 11:10:08 AM , Rating: 2
What makes OSX insecure compared to Windows?


RE: Thank You!
By nosfe on 11/12/2008 11:24:09 AM , Rating: 3
the security holes in it that take ages to get patched?


RE: Thank You!
By headbox on 11/12/2008 5:41:17 PM , Rating: 1
These "holes" are from security breech contests, where hackers might choose not to break Vista because another contest is offering more prize money. Let's talk REAL LIFE here- OS X is not vulnerable to the internet pitfalls Windows is. And don't bring up the "marketshare" argument. There are millions of Macs, especially at Universities and Movie/Music studios. Millions of PeeCee Microsoft drones hate Macs. You'd think there would be ONE virus or malware outbreak... yet there are none.


RE: Thank You!
By raghavny80 on 11/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 11:46:29 AM , Rating: 2
Ever wonder why OSX for business use is next to non existent? They get monthly to bi monthly security updates (if that), not to mention that its always been form over security with OSX. Home end-users could care less about security, its all about form over function. Microsoft is trying to address this with Windows 7, though don't expect MS to take a hit on security just to add a fancy new feature. Upon the release of OSX leopard server, the reviews on the Apple.com website for people who were using it were just abysmal, which I just found hilarious that Apple would even allow those kind of reviews on their main page.


RE: Thank You!
By Doormat on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 1:32:53 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Wow, I'm blown away at your complete inability to engage in critical thinking.
I find it funny you say that, without offering any scientific proof on the subject (you know one of the requisites of critical thinking)

First off, Microsoft has a mass userbase compared to Apples, so of course they will be targetted more, thus it is Microsofts duty to seek out and patch these flaws as soon as possible.

Second, instead of releasing updates as they are found and fixed, Apple waits and releases them at one time, which gives allows those who know how to take advantage of these flaws more time to do damage.

Third, Apple has placed dead last compared to Linux and Windows in browser and internet security regardless of which browser is used (Safari or Firefox).

Fourth, Apple has no excuse! They are in a completely closed system, and don't have to deal with the same things that windows and unix based systems do. It should be much easier to fix and deploy these flaws than in Windows without effecting its users.


RE: Thank You!
By nosfe on 11/12/2008 1:37:38 PM , Rating: 5
last i checked OSX is the easiest to hack out of the 3 major operating systems but if security through obscurity works for you then good for you, i prefer something solid between me and the crap floating around the net


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 11:42:54 AM , Rating: 1
Don't read too much into that contest. The guy who hacked OS X did did so using a hack that he'd found previously (hence the speed) and is still an OS X user. If the security in the Mac is so bad, why would a security expert continue to use it?

The only thing that will convince me that Mac OS X security is weaker than that of Windows is the results of a code examination by an independent and trustworthy party or if the number of exploits in the wild is higher. Until then you and everyone else have no idea whether the lack of exploits for the Mac OS is due to "security through obscurity" or solid security.


RE: Thank You!
By Aloonatic on 11/13/2008 11:58:33 AM , Rating: 5
If the "hack" was already known, is that not really bad?

Even worse than a new one?

Being easily hackable is one thing, but not bothering to address known hacks/problems/security flaws is another?

Not got an axe to grind here, just seems like an odd thing to say and I'm assuming that there had been enough time to address the previously known problem and that it was reasonably well knon (not just the guess little secret)

If not, then please ignore this comment :)


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/14/2008 3:32:05 AM , Rating: 2
I think this one was known for almost a year but was initially raised for the iPhone. I do not know whether this was raised as something that would impact the Mac OS in general, or whether it was not investigated further to see if it did also impact the desktop OS. So, while I agree that the flaw was indeed bad, I do not believe that you can read too much into it. Certainly, you cannot say that, based on this flaw or contest, that Windows Vista is more secure than the current Mac OS. There are too many variables involved.

When there is a reason to worry, then I'll worry but at the moment there isn't one so I don't see the point in doing so. That said, I do think that Apple needs to up their game at addressing flaws that are raised to them in a timely manner.


RE: Thank You!
By King of Heroes on 11/12/2008 1:38:12 PM , Rating: 2
Speaking of failures in critical thinking...

Mac OS X doesn't have as many *known* security holes because hackers in general don't give a shit enough about OS X to bother exploiting it. Those holes that do show up (and please don't delude yourself into believing that only the flaws that are announced are the only ones that exist) take forever and a day to get solved. Even better, since OS X is a closed, static platform every single OS X machine will have the exact same glaring holes that can be exploited in the exact same way.

Windows has massive market share, this makes it the prime target for any hacker/saboteur worth their salt. Yes, it uncovers a bunch of holes, but it also toughens up the system in general. MS's ability to quickly throw out patches for problems as they appear gives me much more confidence in its security than OS X.


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 11:51:25 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is that your comment is largely pointless. I'm willing to agree with you that there are more security holes in the Mac OS than are currently reported, and that Apple does not patch them as quickly as we would like. However, how many holes are there? Surely that is the important question here and one that you cannot answer. Unless you know the relative number of flaws in the Mac OS compared to Windows this whole discussion is pointless.

Given that Windows has previously had flaws exploited, I'm curious as to why this gives you confidence. The assumption is that the flaws are fixed and that Microsoft is more prudent in identifying others and fixing them. But that's an assumption and one that isn't based on good history. You could be right but it certainly isn't something that I'd bet the mortgage on.


RE: Thank You!
By jvillaro on 11/12/2008 1:49:01 PM , Rating: 2
No, I think he talking about all the studies and reporta that say that Microsoft provides the fastest response and solution to any kind of security threats and issues out of any other software vendor and by far in the OS's segment.
quote:
Apple because they don't have as many security holes to patch ...
Wow, I'm blown away at your complete inability to engage in critical thinking.


And im amazed that you've been living under a rock these past months and did not see the results when tha Macs where the first computers hacked in the security challenge (don't remember the name of the event).

Give Apple 90% share of the market and you will find out how many security holes they will have to patch. There aren't more issues because what would be the point? 9% tops of computers are OSX? Apple can barely keep up patching
right now.


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 2:46:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Macs where the first computers hacked in the security challenge (don't remember the name of the event).
It was CanSecWests pwn2own challenge.
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/03/28/mac_ha...


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 3:46:36 AM , Rating: 2
Those patches need developers and they need money. MS is pushing Vista so much because they want more money. They could have kept XP for 10 years or put a small set of improvements in Vista (and probably not get so much hatred), but they need to justify why a new OS costs so much. So the fact that they have the fastest response is proportional to their fundings.

Oh, and compare bugs/patches with inventions, not with production. You cannot invent on command or plan inventions. So the fact that a Mac was hacked in 10s compared to 10hours for Win doesn't have any relevance. On the next conference roles can be reversed. And security rate is very dependent of market share (like how many try).
If Apple would have had 90% market share, they would have the developers to release a patch every day (or other period you may think of).


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 5:02:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ever wonder why OSX for business use is next to non existent?

Yes, I do, but it has nothing to do with security.
It's the compatibility. Why would I use an OS which runs 10 of my required apps and not 5 of them when I can use an OS that runs them all.
It's a vicious cycle: market share will not increase until app ports are not increased, but app ports are increased only if market share is big enough to obtain a profit. It's like a race condition in programming: 2 tasks waiting for each other and going nowhere.
GNU/Linuxes only problem is the many choices of distributions and lack of support/responsibility. A MS-type marketing would raise it's market share very much.


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 11:59:32 AM , Rating: 2
Office use of the Mac is limited for many reasons but the security policy for the Mac OS is unlikely to be a major factor. The patching policy of Apple is considered a problem not because they don't issue them often (if there is nothing to patch...) but rather you don't know when they are coming and surprise is never popular. Transparency has never been Apple's strong point (although they seem to be making more of an effort recently) and that hinders adoption of the Mac by businesses.

As far as I am concerned, the problem that Apple has it that they don't have a platform like Windows does. I really can't stand Windows itself but Microsoft has produced software and services that play nicely with each other and replacing a Windows infrastructure for one from Apple is next to impossible. SharePoint is really important to our company, for example, and Apple has absolutely no replacement for this.


RE: Thank You!
By Hieyeck on 11/12/2008 11:25:05 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

Not having to rely on third party anti-virus protection, firewalls, and diligent patching.

To you or I, these precautions may have seemed common sense, but to the average home user you're talking alien speak there.
So you're implying Vista will NEVER have to be diligintly patched? That MS will be better at putting out AV and FW patches than companies whose SOLE BUSINESS is to fix this? Get real. The only OS that will never need to diligintly patched are Apple OS's, because Apple never actually fixes problems - you just buy a new version.

quote:
To the average user the biggest improvements are better security and a nicer interface like I said. A lot of the problems like hardware compatibility have been removed, so I'd say Vista is definitely the best buy on the market today.
It's not BETTER security, it's just security that hasn't been broken yet. All security breaks, there's no such thing as better - there's only staying ahead of the curve (see WEP/WPA/WPA2 - if you can't figure out what I mean, stop posting news to this site.). The only VISIBLE security feature to the user is UAC, and that serves to annoy more than help - not to mention it can already be easily circumvented.

I won't argue the prettier interface. Shinier stuff always sells better. But frankly, it's just a theme. If you really wanted shiny that bad, you just need to GOOGLE HARDER. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=vista+theme+fo... - I only wish I could link the I'm Feeling Lucky link.

DirectX 10 IS the only advantage of Vista, and that's only because MS knew they'd be desperate to sell Vista with is piss poor pre-release reviews. They made the concious decision to NOT put out the APIs for XP. And I agree that DX10 isn't that big a deal - which is why I'm sticking with XP instead of blowing $300, but that hardly means he's out of touch with the average user. All he's doing is pointing out Vista's only "advantage" over XP. I'd say you're out of touch with us 'power' users.

Alas, you're right about the "average user". They're too stupid to use google to realize the shiny can be gotten for FREE on XP. But hey, it's why I get paid big bucks to sit on my ass browsing DT, so I'm not one to complain.


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 12:18:35 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
The only VISIBLE security feature to the user is UAC, and that serves to annoy more than help - not to mention it can already be easily circumvented.


Perhaps you should do some research on a product before ripping it a new one.

Windows Vista Security Features:
-UAC
-Firewall (two way filter over XP with only an incoming filter)
-Built-in Windows Defender
-Drive Encryption
-Parental Controls
-Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR)
-Mandatory Integrity Control
-Windows Service Hardening
-Network Access Protection (NAP)
-Windows Filtering Platform (WFP)
-IPsec is now fully integrated with Windows Firewall
-PatchGuard
-Code Integrity

Sheesh, just because you don't SEE any new security features doesn't mean they're not there. One of the reasons that there were such driver problems with Vista was because Microsoft placed security standards all the way down to the device driver level (and below).

Pull your head out of your arse and maybe you can see Vista for what it is... A fine OS.


RE: Thank You!
By Hieyeck on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 1:00:13 PM , Rating: 2
Hey if Vista doesn't float your boat then fine, don't buy it. However your insistence in belittling something that YOU have no use for just smacks of unneeded fanboyism.

Let me peel away at another quote of yours.
quote:
It's not BETTER security, it's just security that hasn't been broken yet.


Better security is ALWAYS security that hasn't been broken yet... because security will ALWAYS be broken at some point. Do you think vault makers don't continue build better vaults and safes?

Security is a cat and mouse game, if you can't see that then, like I said, pull your head out of your arse and join the rest of reality.

The best security you could hope for is 'security that hasn't been broken yet.'


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 1:18:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm WELL aware there are PLENTY of other upgrades, but how much of it does the user actually SEE on a daily basis?

Oh, and the best security should be fairly transparent to the end user... So out of all those security features I listed only one of them demands anything from the user, UAC... i think that is a pretty good implementation of all Vista's new security features. Plus they have refined that implementation in Vista SP1 and are enhancing and refining it more in Windows 7.

This is good news for ALL end users, whether they see it on a daily basis or not.


RE: Thank You!
By Hieyeck on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By Hieyeck on 11/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 4:03:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not trying to stir the shitstorm that is fanboism
It searches for keywords, such as swearing and automatically rates you down.. You really think someone is that committed to Jason that they wait until someone posts a negative comment, and instantly reads it and rates you down?

Sorry, you are not that special..


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 4:29:23 PM , Rating: 2
You're a goon.

No the context of the thread was lost on you from the beginning.

Read what Jason wrote:
quote:
Not having to rely on third party anti-virus protection, firewalls, and diligent patching.


What Jason was talking about was that users don't have to go out of their way to enable anti-malware or firewalls or patching. This is done in Vista automatically.

You read into what Jason wrote what you wanted to read:
quote:
So you're implying Vista will NEVER have to be diligintly patched?


Jason never said that "Vista will NEVER have to be diligintly [sic] patched." He said users don't have to worry themselves with it... because if you had a clue you would know that it is done automatically by default. If your Vista PC connects to the internet your Vista PC will be patched, unless you explicitly told it not to.

quote:
Who would you trust more for AV? Microsoft - whose goal is to sell their OS... and XBox... and Office Suite... and... (OK you get the point) AND ON TOP of that, to NOT patch it frequently and diligently; OR would you trust a company who's SOLE BUSINESS is to watch for and protect users against virus, and offers DAILY + CRITICAL patches applied diligently.


Honestly? I'd choose Microsoft. It is their interest, above all others that Windows is as secure as possible. Since they have the lion's share of the market they have the most to loose from having crappy security.

All your other drivel is just a testament to your ignorance of Vista.


RE: Thank You!
By Hieyeck on 11/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By lco45 on 11/13/2008 2:28:13 AM , Rating: 2
... arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.
Even if you win you're still retarded.

Luke


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 4:13:18 AM , Rating: 2
Put yourself one question: if it's so secure, why do big companies avoid it?
-UAC has no use to big comapnies who already use limited accounts
-Firewall is handled by local proxies and computers have no communications beside it.
-windows defender, NAP, same as firewall
-IPsec, they already have 3rd party products licensed
-patchguard, service hardening, MIC are just ways to protect an already bad code which corporations avoid through testing before deploying.

So no, Vista does not have new features that comapies desperately need. But corporations can still get licenses for XP.
While testing it, I found that it was extremely lagging in UI, which I found very frustrating. So the new features are not worth the extra "timings". And after the test, I bought XP 64. And this is only because I intend to use >3GB RAM.
And tell me, if MS would have lowered the price of XP because Vista was released (like it happens in HW), would you have bought Vista or XP? 95% of the users would have said NO to Vista, because they just need an OS.
Vista release and XP EOL are just tactics to keep pushing sales of a new OS and HW. It's good just for MS and some HW companies, but not for consumers.


RE: Thank You!
By FITCamaro on 11/12/2008 4:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's not BETTER security, it's just security that hasn't been broken yet


Well considering XPs security was broken a few days after release I'd say Vista is doing pretty damn well.


RE: Thank You!
By CyborgTMT on 11/12/2008 10:37:17 PM , Rating: 2
Not really a fair argument. Most of the initial security problems with XP were carry-overs from W2K that were not fixed. Hackers had a year and a half of play time with W2K on the market that they didn't have with Vista. And while MS patched W2K, for some reason they let XP into the wild with the exploits still there.

Now that being said, IMO it doesn't matter what security features an OS has prepackaged into it or how well they patch it. A computer is only secure as the person operating it allows. Spend all day searching for Hungarian porn and you get what you deserve; as well as a bad case of hairy palms.


RE: Thank You!
By FITCamaro on 11/13/2008 6:01:10 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
A computer is only secure as the person operating it allows.


Exactly. And by default, Vista is far more secure than XP ever was/is.


RE: Thank You!
By rocketx2 on 11/12/2008 8:30:30 PM , Rating: 2
From the Server to the Cell Phone Microsoft Windows has changed billions of people’s lives for the better... but the Mac did design a cute brochure about it. ROTFLMAO!!!!

Macs use Intel chips, Nvidia graphics so they can boot Vista to run Microsoft Office… all at twice the price. Hey Steve Jobs you’re a PC!!!


RE: Thank You!
By MickKelleher on 11/12/2008 11:25:56 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

I can understand where you're coming from, but understand your opinion is not the average user's perspective.


This average user's perspective argument is very subjective.

Having supported thousands of business users of different technical competencies I can guarantee that the average users doesn't really care about any of the points you have used to counter these arguments.

From a user perspective once they can find, open, and user their applications they really don't care what skin the OS is using.

I would argue that in their case Vista and XP are the same for them.
Vista isn't any easier to use, and in some cases more difficult as MS moved things around a bit. If you do upgrade them from XP to Vista the first comment I ALWAYS hear is "why is it so slow?", not "hmmm that looks nice".

I can't agree that Vista is the best OS for the general public but it is adequate if the system has enough resources.


RE: Thank You!
By just4U on 11/12/2008 10:48:32 PM , Rating: 2
It's easier...

They don't normally have to go thru hoops to upgrade their drivers. The updating proccess is much more streamlined. Search features are easier, media integration is vastly improved..

There are alot of things the average end user will find better about Vista.. once they learn where everything is. That's one great thing Microsoft has done thru the years.. They always have three or four different ways to access most features they believe people might use.


RE: Thank You!
By MickKelleher on 11/13/2008 4:22:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:

There are alot of things the average end user will find better about Vista.. once they learn where everything is.


In my experience they don't want to learn where everything is.
They just keep ringing a more experienced PC person and get them to do everything for them.

I think my family only rings me when they need help with their PCs.

Funnily enough I never hear from those with Macs.


RE: Thank You!
By just4U on 11/13/2008 4:46:07 AM , Rating: 2
" Funnily enough I never from those with Macs "

That's because the majority of us don't know anyone who has
one ;)


RE: Thank You!
By just4U on 11/13/2008 4:49:07 AM , Rating: 2
In seriousness tho, I do believe people are becoming a little more savvy with computers as the years go by. But ofcourse those with experts on hand it's convienent to just get them to come over. <shrug>

Mac's are the same. Most people who went out and bought one usually know someone else with alot more experience who they can turn to when things go wrong.


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 12:07:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Vista isn't any easier to use, and in some cases more difficult as MS moved things around a bit.


That's where they went wrong with Office 2007. I really respect what they were trying to do with Office and the Ribbon but you try finding an experienced Office user who likes the new interface. It's been 2-years since I started using it and I still have to hunt for where options have been moved to.

By all means provide a new interface that improves on the last one, but please provide a "Classic" interface option for us old dogs that can't be taught new tricks.


RE: Thank You!
By Belard on 11/13/2008 6:50:11 AM , Rating: 2
#1
quote:
Not having to rely on third party anti-virus protection, firewalls, and diligent patching.


LOL, thats funny. Vista still gets VIRUS infections. Its firewall is a toy and only slightly less useless than XP's built-in firewall - but still better than nothing.

#2
quote:
To the average user the biggest improvements are better security and a nicer interface ~I'd say Vista is definitely the best buy on the market today. Its by no means perfect or even outstanding ~ its the best OS for the general public.


Better security? Until the user is done pulling out all of his hair and digs for the option to kill of the UAC... which in turn means that some programs won't work with it on... back and forth crap. Turn it off, vista is pretty much just as weak as an unprotected XP. Lets see, a little tool included with SPYBOT Search & Destory will bug you about programs trying to run that can effect the OS. Its smarter and has a "remember this setting" check box.

Nicer interface? Thats an opinion... XP-MCE is a nice upgrade over XP-Home/Pro. There isn't anything in vista that makes me go oooooooo. The much older MacOS X is still more polished - and it came out before XP. Vista looks a bit like MCE. I see from screenshots of Win7 that the task bar is actually different and without the STUPID circle start Icon that is cut off from the bottom - yet overlays on top of other windows/items on the desktop on its upper end. The "bubble" screen saver is ugly. The Transparancy abiltiy is ho-hum... What nvidia includes in THEIR XP-driver is that ALL non-active desktop windows become very transparent.... and user adjustable. That us USE-FUL. Best buy? For the most part, the PC industry doesn't give users the CHOICE between XP and vista. If MS wasn't shoving it up vender's a~~ (rear end), there would easily be more XP boxes on store shelves than vista. This happened when that WinME came out in 2000... Win98se continued to be available past WinME.

Thank god that Lenovo ThinkPads has optional WindowsXP Pro CDs available for its users (for free with Vista-business)and downloadable drivers if you already have an XP setup disc.

#3
quote:
And most users aside from hardcore gamers really won't experience that much excitement going from DX9 to DX10. I can understand where you're coming from, but understand your opinion is not the average user's perspective.


To a degree, yes. And yet, MS made that rather boring game HALO2 a DX10(Vista) only game... wow! A game with 2003 graphics... requiring a whole new OS. A lot of Halo2 sales were lost - LOL! Actually DX10 was a selling point for me with Vista... but the rest of the package isn't worth it. Crysis, UT3 and other games looks great on my XP system... and I've seen some game title comparisions with DX9 vs DX10... and yes, DX10 can easily blow DX9 out of the water. Of course, with those effects - come video card requirements. But todays ATI 4850 and Nvidia 9800GTX+ cards costing about $150 - that is no big deal.

But theres problems. (1) ATI & Nvidia have their own language to communicate with their GPUs so that the developers DON'T need to rely on DirectX. They can hit the hardware more directly. (2) DRM on PC games as well as piracy IS severely killing the PC-GAME market. BioShock & Spore is are examples, as well as the new Crysis game... such DRM - I REFUSE to buy - much less install. I've bought my games and I don't want to be treated like a crimminal by the game companies. So in effect - a PlayStation3 is in my near future for some gaming. But how many games are in 1920x1200 res? A PC is better made for some games. WOW isn't helping much - but doesn't require Vista or DX10 to run.

So, if the public doesn't need Vista/DX10 for gaming... and most of what people do is surf the net and perhaps type and print a letter to grandma (and I know of some grandmas who have email, webcams)... then what does vista actually offer?

In a way, MS is actually hurting their own PC market with the Xbox by pushing gaming business over there. I thank them for that. It makes the MAC and Linux compatiblity issues to be less important. With a web browser and basic tools - who needs Vista or MS Windows? Yeah yeah, MS-Office, Quicken/Quickbooks are about it.

Just as your OPINION is that you like vista. I and others are allowed to have our OPIONION that vista sucks. Sp1 Vista is better... But I'd rather be stuck with a SP1 XP computer than any version of vista.

If Windows7 is just as sloppy, slow, bothersome as Vista... then I'll be using XP for a while longer. If Apple was smarter - they'd have some affordable $600~800 mini-towers on the market. I don't want an "iMac" AIO... and I don't care to spend $2500~4000 for dual CPU setup with expensive memory and limited video card choices.


RE: Thank You!
By Lightnix on 11/13/2008 8:13:15 AM , Rating: 2
"ATI & Nvidia have their own language to communicate with their GPUs so that the developers DON'T need to rely on DirectX. They can hit the hardware more directly."

That was barely feasible back in the days of bedroom coders making 2D games for DOS systems. Companies only use things like the NVAPI when they're specifically paid to as the amount of extra time in development doesn't give decent results to anything but a specific target platform, which does little but alienate a large part of a market.

That said CUDA will probably die because of DirectX 11's compute language anyway.


RE: Thank You!
By kc77 on 11/14/2008 4:50:10 PM , Rating: 2
For the common end user who is purchasing a new computer with Vista preloaded, preferably with 2GB of RAM, yes Vista is better than XP.

However, you would be hung out and shot for installing Vista in a business setting. Even after SP1, network discovery is a mess, if you're running a Win2K domain controller prepare to do a dance with printers. Novell NDS with Vista... no longer a nightmare, but still can produce issues that didn't exist before. Video adapter stability with SP1 in workstation settings (AutoCAD, Maya Studio) also can be a headache.

While I don't agree with needing 2GB to have a snappy OS, it is an antidote for Vista, and offers better memory management with higher capacities of memory giving the home-user an overall nicer experience.

However, in a business setting MS still has work to do. It does not compare compatibility wise in enterprise environments. There is a reason why the business market has been slower to adopt than would normally be expected. While the "rumor-mill" does play a role in software adoption, we do actually test this stuff before rolling it out and to say that Vista is better than XP in every conceivable way is just wrong and not correct.

Better in some areas? Yes
In all areas? Nope


RE: Thank You!
By bhieb on 11/12/2008 10:47:22 AM , Rating: 2
As a parent I personally like the built in parental controls. I have not had the best luck with the 3rd party solutions, but the Vista one functions nicely. Plus I like Media Center on Vista Home Premium (basic would not really be an options IMHO), but again not a big improvement over MCE2005. Also I like lots of memory it is cheap, and Vista 64 seems way more stable than XP (yes I have both).

Certainly I will not be upgrading any of my existing machines, because I agree the benefit is just not there. However I see no reason not to put it on a new box. Plus hell I just like new stuff. I've been looking at the same boring XP crap for years and I like the new look/functions.


RE: Thank You!
By Screwballl on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By Scabies on 11/12/2008 12:41:03 PM , Rating: 2
Vista do better? hmm...
The other day we were moving computers around. Two in the same room, one with XP sp3, one with VistaU sp1. Had a printer connected to and shared from the XP machine, but we decided we wanted to just plug the printer into the router (which is not a print server)

Vista: Enter the IP of the printer. Wait for windows update to pull down drivers. Done.

XP: Create a "port" that uses the IP of the printer (like COM1. *shudders*.) Find the drivers (which are in some .exe file, thanks to HP). Oh, you deleted them in anticipation of reinstalling them in a different manner? Well they're no longer on the hard drive, plug the printer back in via USB and let windows update get the drivers. Then unplug and try to connect via your IP-Frankenport.


RE: Thank You!
By chizow on 11/12/2008 3:01:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. What does Vista do better than a well patched XP using 3rd party anti-virus and firewalls?


1. Better 64-bit support. Vista 64 was developed parallel to 32-bit.
2. Better SLI support. XP can't do more than SLI, so no Tri or Quad SLI.
3. DX10 support.
4. SuperFetch, with 8GB in a 64-bit OS is great.
5. UI, Search, layout etc.
6. New hardware and PnP support. I plug in new devices that are recognized right away, without installing anything.

quote:
2. Are those improvements (if they exist) worth the money in both software and hardware upgrades?

If you're running old hardware, probably not, but if you're building a new system or purchasing a new PC, then its certainly worth the extra $100-$150 for Vista, if it doesn't already come with your PC for free (64-bit + 4GB+ is also being included on an overwhelming majority of new PCs).


RE: Thank You!
By chizow on 11/12/2008 3:08:14 PM , Rating: 2
Oh ya forgot:

7. No BSODs. IE stops responding every once in awhile (due to residual Adobe Flash problems, imo), but thats about it.


RE: Thank You!
By mathew7 on 11/13/2008 4:53:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. Better 64-bit support. Vista 64 was developed parallel to 32-bit.

MS-pushing:Parallel development does not imply support. It's just a "cost-reduction" issue from MS (they could support XP64 as well).
quote:
2. Better SLI support. XP can't do more than SLI, so no Tri or Quad SLI.

MS-pushing:working with nvidia/ati for supporting only in Vista.
quote:
3. DX10 support.

MS-pushing:Exerything is possible in SW, so I don't see why it could not be present in XP
quote:
4. SuperFetch, with 8GB in a 64-bit OS is great.

MS-support of bloated code. Doesn't it increase startup and HDD use? The fact is that until the HDD stops, you will always have laggy app startups. In case of laptops, I consider superfetch more annoying than useful. Didn't they try to force flash drives with this?
quote:
5. UI, Search, layout etc.

Yah, good for average consumers, probably could be implemented in XP
quote:
6. New hardware and PnP support. I plug in new devices that are recognized right away, without installing anything.

MS-pushing:This was also the case for "until XP-release" HW. This is just evolution and HW companies playing-along. Also could be done in XP.

They should have spent more time in refining responsiveness and less time in bloating features. While I don't really blame the features, the fact that the default installation starts them all is what bothers me.
It starts Wireless Zero Config, IPSec, DHCP client when I don't have wireless network, don't use VPN and use static addresses. Why? These should be controlled by drivers, not started by default. Starting something and then realizing it's not needed has a penalty. While not noticeable alone, when you do this to 20 services it is noticeable.
Superfetch was already present in MSOffice (since 97), openoffice, adobe reader, and whole other bunch of applications, called ususally "preload" or "fast start". While it's usefull in general usage, it was killing system startup. Superfetch only improves them slightly because its one that does it for all.

What I'm attacking most is the programming model that seems to ignore runtime, especially on startup. I experiment with HW, so I'm used to installing drivers, but the fact that 20 reboots in 1 hour is normal for me, I cannot ignore the startup time.


RE: Thank You!
By MrPoletski on 11/16/2008 11:02:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. What does Vista do better than a well patched XP using 3rd party anti-virus and firewalls? 2. Are those improvements (if they exist) worth the money in both software and hardware upgrades? For myself - I don't think the upgrade is justified. About the only thing Vista has over XP was DirectX10, and that was only because MS had to try and encourage vista upgrades.


ERm.. Directx 10.

Directx10 was not released only on vista to promote people to upgrade to it. Dx10 marks a completely different driver model for 3D cards and you'd literally have to gut windows xp and rewrite half of it to get dx10 to work with it. It's that big a transition, kind of like the difference between having a system tray icon to adjust your soundcard settings... or "SET BLASTER A220 I5 D3 T4" in your autoexec bat.

DX10 introduces the 3D card as a non-exclusive hardware device for the first time, try running 2 3d games at the same time in XP in a window, side by side on your desktop.

You can't. Your 3D card is an exclusive device and when quake is running, nothing else can use it. This is no longer the case under vista/dx10.


RE: Thank You!
By MickKelleher on 11/12/2008 10:34:40 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

It is just sad that Windows 7 may fail before it starts because of the misinformation and bias against Windows Vista.


Some people will never like Vista, and there is still a large amount of negativity surrounding it.

If Windows 7 is perceived as Vista SE, then there is a good chance that Windows 7 will inherit some of that negativity too.

I've used almost every Windows desktop and server since Windows 3.11, and Windows ME and Vista are my least favourite of the two. I have a Vista Ultimate 64bit system which has a quad core and 8GB of RAM and it still feels slower in everything compared to my Server 2003 64bit which is on the other disk in that CPU.

If MS can get the same or better performance with Windows 7 on my new Asus Eee PC (Intel Atom 1.6Ghz) over XP SP3, then they I'll take it more seriously.


RE: Thank You!
By FITCamaro on 11/12/2008 11:10:31 AM , Rating: 2
I've got Vista Business x64 on a quad core with 4GB of RAM and its plenty fast. Everything snaps open at a whim. Hell the laptop I've got running Vista Home Premium 32-bit with a 2GHz Turion X2, 3GB of RAM, and 160GB 5400 rpm hard drive is also insanely snappy. I boot it up, log in, and can immediately open things even before the OS is done completely loading things. In XP, I have to wait for XP to get done loading things.


RE: Thank You!
By piroroadkill on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thank You!
By FITCamaro on 11/12/2008 12:02:50 PM , Rating: 2
If you take the time to actually read his comment instead of trying to look like a jackass, you'd see that he was saying that his quad core with 8GB of RAM and Vista Ultimate wasn't fast.


RE: Thank You!
By cubdukat on 11/12/2008 11:30:39 AM , Rating: 2
If Vista was so good, why is Microsoft looking to replace it after only two years? And why did they themselves admit that it was a mistake? And why would they offer the option to downgrade back to XP Pro in some cases?

That's not exactly the type of behavior you would expect from someone with a "superior" product.

No, I think that everybody just has to acknowledge that they blew it big-time with Vista, and the only reason OSX and Linux haven't made more headway than they have is because they both have issues themselves that make its adoption harder--namely ridiculously expensive hardware (Mac) and overly complex workings (Linux). Neither one is insurmountable, but they both really passed up a golden opportunity, especially Linux.

As soon as I can figure out whether Blu-Ray is supported by XP, I'm going back to it. At least I won't have to do a clean install every three months.


RE: Thank You!
By ChronoReverse on 11/12/2008 11:58:00 AM , Rating: 2
If Leopard was so good, why is Apple trying to replace it so quickly with Snow Leopard?

For that matter, why is OSX so bad that it merited so many versions (10.0, 10.1, 10.2, etc.)?


RE: Thank You!
By CyborgTMT on 11/12/2008 10:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
Because Apple doesn't patch their operating systems, they make you buy a new one.


RE: Thank You!
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 12:17:48 PM , Rating: 2
Well, I think everyone agrees that 10.0 was a beta in all but name and that 10.1 wasn't much better but since then things have been more or less golden. It's been suggested that frequent updates to the OS isn't a good thing but I'd disagree. Each update has delivered a nice refresh with features that I use each (or at least most) day and the price is pretty much peanuts. Microsoft updates at a slower pace, most likely because they have a more complicated task with a more diverse user base to please.

What is acceptable depends on what you are getting in each refresh, how long you've had to wait and how much you are being expected to pay. The problem that Vista encountered was that it took too long, delivered too little and was relatively expensive. Microsoft at least appears to have addressed the duration problem with Windows 7 and we wait to see if the contents and price will be acceptable.


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 12:00:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If Vista was so good, why is Microsoft looking to replace it after only two years?


Not two years... Jan 2007 was general availability of Vista.
Win7 is expected between mid 2009 and early 2010.

That is two and a half to three years.

Lets look at some history

Win3.11(12/93) ->Win95(8/95) less than 2 years.
Win95 (8/95) -> Win98(6/98) less than 3 years.
Win98SE(5/99) -> WinME(9/00) less than 2 years.
WinME(9/00) -> WinXP(10/01) 1 year and 1 month.
WinXP(10/01) -> WinVista(1/07) less than 6 years.

So by your logic Windows Vista should be the best Microsoft OS since it took the longest to develop.

However you and I both know that you're simply using a fallacious argument to make a fallacious point. No one has to 'acknowledge that they blew it big-time with Vista.' Because they didn't.

Vista is a fine stable and secure OS that has many compelling features over XP.

Plus if you here on a DT news thread speculating on if XP has Blu-Ray support or not instead of simply finding out makes me suspect of your opinion. Since you obviously prefer people to tell you your opinion instead of you figuring it out for yourself.


RE: Thank You!
By cubdukat on 11/13/2008 1:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
Uh, yeah, they kinda do.

And as for my own personal bias, if you had read further, you would have noticed that I said that OSX and Linux also had issues they needed to resolve as well. Microsoft just has less of an excuse because of the crazy money they have to throw at projects like Vista. There's absolutely no excuse why it couldn't have been better, other than they've just gotten lazy. They think that as long as people think they have no where else to go, they can give us any old crap.


RE: Thank You!
By tdawg on 11/12/2008 2:17:43 PM , Rating: 2
Ubuntu 8.10 is quite easy to setup and install applications. In my opinion, the thing that's holding Linux back in overall adoption is the fact that the average user can't really walk into the store and buy Linux apps, such as Quicken or Photoshop. With more commercial support, it becomes a real option for people. I know I'd move to it as a primary OS if Quicken, Lightroom and a Media Center / TV Tuner worked with it.

It was really only from a PR standpoint that Vista's perceived issues hurt Microsoft, since people were downgrading to Microsoft's equally priced previous OS, they still got the customer's money. I'd imagine by admitting it was a "mistake", Microsoft gave people an alternative option to migrating to another company's OS (Apple) or adopting an open source platform, costing Microsoft potential sales of other software (Office).


RE: Thank You!
By das mod on 11/12/2008 1:36:02 PM , Rating: 2
these idiotic reviews are nothing but a mere excuse for wanna-be journalists to try and make a name for themselves

go test drive an unfinished vehicle and see how it performs


RE: Thank You!
By snownpaint on 11/12/2008 2:31:39 PM , Rating: 2
Oddly enough Dippy; They do that all the time.. Where do you think Car and Driver get the next years cars pics? Don't you think car companies seek outside opinions of their designs, and features? I work for a small manufacturing company and we run tests and product research with sponsored pro-players to get feedback on designs, make better designs and hash out the unforeseen flaws or issues. We also test the products with women, children, adults, fat people, and of course the pros- that really abuse the test product.

That is why these people test pre-betas..

Another MS can do no wrong guy!! I have tested allot of Beta games; Crysis,COD4, TF2, Portal, and a few other MODs. Beside some basic UI, or glitch issues, the overall code doesn't go though a rebuild. Minor tweaks are adjusted, but the overall look and feel of the game stays the same. I will bet, beside some minor upgrades, error log bug reports, and a few processes removed, you are looking at the next MS 7. Maybe some UI upgrades, but don't expect much.


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 2:54:33 PM , Rating: 2
That was probably a bad analogy by Das Mod.

If you were to break it down into a car analogy then what reviewers drive would be considered Release Candidates in the world of software... not pre-beta.

I doubt any car manufacture would let anyone outside of their walls drive a pre-beta car.

probably a better analogy for this argument would be if a musician released a 'pre-beta' version of their song. It would probably sound like crap to the majority of the people that heard it.

Or a pre-beta movie. Which would be half-way through production.


RE: Thank You!
By mondo1234 on 11/12/2008 3:28:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or a pre-beta movie. Which would be half-way through production.


Isn't that what some trailers are?


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 4:17:25 PM , Rating: 2
Do you watch a movie trailer and then write a review on how horrible the movie is?


RE: Thank You!
By mondo1234 on 11/12/2008 5:22:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you watch a movie trailer and then write a review on how horrible the movie is?


I think you mean "How horrible the movie will be"?
In this case, your "movie" is not out.

Do you pay for a movie that has crappy cgi in the trailer? Neither do I. Unfortunately, others will write reviews of the trailer. I am not disagreeing with the thought, just the analogy. I am not sticking up for Jason, but this isn't the review...this is just a blog about the review.


RE: Thank You!
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 5:39:06 PM , Rating: 2
No I meant what I said "How horrible the movie is." Because that is what these lengthy, intentionally misleading, "articles" are trying to push... that the final product will be crappy because of x, y, and/or z.

I think the big "take away" from this movie analogy is that regardless if the trailer is good or bad the movie is judged by its full release. The trailer is usually long forgotten after the movie is out.

I've seen good movies with bad trailers and I've seen bad movies with good trailers. The latter is unfortunately much more frequent.

Of course most analogies are bad. Obviously any OS is a process of continual improvement which isn't the case in movies... unless you're George Lucas...


RE: Thank You!
By mondo1234 on 11/12/2008 5:54:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've seen good movies with bad trailers and I've seen bad movies with good trailers. The latter is unfortunately much more frequent.


If you feel the emotion in this blog is negative and you equate that with a bad trailer, than according to the above, it might be a good thing.


RE: Thank You!
By cokbun on 11/12/2008 9:39:36 PM , Rating: 2
naah, some times all you need is to read the titles, like: alvin and the chipmunks, high school musical 1,2,3


RE: Thank You!
By Belard on 11/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: Thank You!
By ggordonliddy on 11/12/2008 6:34:34 PM , Rating: 2
You'd have to be a complete jackass and imbecile to think the Vista UI was better than XP.


RE: Thank You!
By rdeegvainl on 11/12/2008 7:53:38 PM , Rating: 2
why?


RE: Thank You!
By rocketx2 on 11/12/2008 8:40:33 PM , Rating: 2
No you'd have to be a complete Jackass to call someone a Jackass because they have a different opinion... I have 2 computers one with Vista one with XP... I like Vista better too.


What's the rush?
By Aloonatic on 11/12/2008 10:13:49 AM , Rating: 2
Is it just me or do MS seem to be rushing win 7 through the pipeline and out into the public domain rather quickly?

I have just 1 theory as to why they might wish to do this, that may just be an anomaly as I am basing this on my own personal experiences, but...

...I know 2 people who have shifted over to Apple and bought Macs in the last 6 months.

They had both had little to zero interest in all things Apple and there isn't even the iPod/iPhone effect as a route into the clutches of Jobs.

Sure, 1 of them has a iPod touch and the other an iPhone, but both of them made these purchases after buying a Mac.

Out of interest, both sighted that they just want a machine to do fairly basic things like photo/video manipulation, media handling and then the basic interwebs/e-mail stuff.

They both also had been long term PC owners and both had recent machines, had installed Vista and had given it a pretty fair chance to impress them.

I was wondering whether this was a growing trend and if so, are MS aware of this and trying to bring out win 7 (or at lest let information slip out about it so easily) in an attempt to combat this?

Just a thought.




RE: What's the rush?
By AlvinCool on 11/12/2008 10:29:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Is it just me or do MS seem to be rushing win 7 through the pipeline and out into the public domain rather quickly?


I believe they are doing it for the same reason I stated in my other message. Corporate entities and smaller offices are not upgrading to Vista, and they desperately need both the revenue and to lock them into their systems


RE: What's the rush?
By Aloonatic on 11/12/2008 10:35:32 AM , Rating: 2
I seem to recall a lot of people and articles saying that corporations were waiting for SP1 before taking the plunge with Vista.

Did that not pan out in the end?

I'm not sure that releasing another OS will really solve this problem (won't they just wait for win 7 SP1?) but it would make more sense as a reason to get win 7 out of the door.

MS must make much more (a lot of "m"s there :D) from corporations and institutions than from home users?

Or is it the case now that they have stamped out a lot of piracy (Most people I knew had a pirated XP pro when it came out, yet I don't know of 1 single person who has a pirated Vista and those left with XP are now legit) that the home sector is where the money's at for them?


RE: What's the rush?
By AlvinCool on 11/12/2008 10:44:09 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'm not sure that releasing another OS will really solve this problem (won't they just wait for win 7 SP1?) but it would make more sense as a reason to get win 7 out of the door.


I'm not speaking from an article, I'm speaking from the decisions we made as a fortune 500 company. And yes we always wait at least 6 months before a deployment but that doesn't always mean SP1. The interesting thing is we OWN Vista and chose not to deploy it. Our enterprise agreement allows us the upgrade and we pass because the hardware we now use for XP won't run Vista well. So why would we upgrade thousands of PC's to hardware that might not be optimal for Win7 when XP continues to do what we need at this stage?? We will do the operating system, office and hardware at one time with vendor agreements of performance, just like the other corporations.

XP won't last more than 2 more years, but it will get us to a tested Win7 and we are not the only corporation looking at it that way.


RE: What's the rush?
By mondo1234 on 11/12/2008 11:37:30 AM , Rating: 2
Your correct that MS makes alot of money from the corporate upgrade world. Many corporations didn't upgrade to Vista. Dont expect that to change for a while as most corporations and municipalities have place OS upgrades at the bottom of the needs list. I know for fact that many would like to replace aging office software with open office alternatives. Also, because of the above and Vistas less than anticipated adoption, software vendors might take their time in application migration/certification for Windows 7.


RE: What's the rush?
By robinthakur on 11/12/2008 11:38:22 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, but I have to question how panicked MS were in announcing Vista's replacement so soon. We as an international banking org were looking to roll out Vista this year, and got to an advanced stage, but that was cancelled as soon as MS confirmed that Windows 7 was on the way so soon. This in turn put the brakes on the upgrade to Office 2007 which is now in question so MS's strategy really needs some scrutiny. I'm sure its not just us who are following the wait and see strategy, all the while MS loses money

Certainly the MS bods seem a bit paranoid who I've talked to, especially in regards to Apple, many citing that they were ashamed to admit that they worked for MS in social situations which is a tiny bit mad...They seem to constantly feel the need to justify the decisions they made from Office 2k7's ribbon bar and with Vista, when in actuality, they have hardly put a foot wrong and alot of the issues seem to be about perception. I think the "I'm a Mac" adverts caused a lot of this within MS, whereas the effect its had on the public is not nearly as great. At least a few of the prioduct managers I've spoken to in the UK seemed to hide behind the I'm a PC ads as their big fightback rather than cite any persuasive technical products. They do need some good leadership from the top down to get over this crisis in confidence.


RE: What's the rush?
By mikefarinha on 11/12/2008 11:07:32 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Is it just me or do MS seem to be rushing win 7 through the pipeline and out into the public domain rather quickly?


Well, you have to look at what is being done with Win7. I've heard one person refer to Vista as Microsoft's 'sacrificial lamb' which I tend to agree with.

Windows Vista had a massive security overhaul which affected everything from device drivers to the user interface. In addition to the security overhaul there were tons and tons of other foundational changes in Vista, enhanced stability and reliability. Also things like superfetch, readyboost, enhanced indexing, overhauled network stack... lots and lots of foundational changes that required lots and lots of testing.

All these foundational changes are needed in the Windows ecosystem, and Vista is the OS that gets the bad rap for 'breaking' everything by bring these fundamental enhancements.

The underpinnings of Windows 7 are going to simply be a refinement of Windows Vista, much less testing required. Which is why it can be released so soon. Vista is the rock that Windows 7 is being built upon. And in my opinion Vista is a very good rock to build off of. So Microsoft is now able to focus on a refined user experience and shave off the sharp edges of Vista. They'll also be able to add new, non foundational, features like HomeGroups, DeviceStage, Direct Access, new UX features like Aero Shake, Aero Snap, new task bar, Multi-touch, quicker boot times, refine resource usage, etc.

I've been paying close attention to Windows 7 and it really looks like it is shaping up to be an awesome release of Windows.

And on a side note, I noticed last night that Microsoft played a Windows Vista ad about the Mojave experiment. It looks like Microsoft hasn't yet abandoned Vista, which I think is good news.

And another side note, all these 'performance' tests people are doing on Win7 Milestone 3 are asinine. The reason for the M3 build (Pre-Beta) is that it is a feature complete version of the programing API. This release was only intended for developers... which is why it was released at the PDC (Professional Developers Conference). So everyone needs to take a chill-pill about this release and realize it's intent.


RE: What's the rush?
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 11/12/2008 11:37:36 AM , Rating: 2
"Is it just me or do MS seem to be rushing win 7 through the pipeline and out into the public domain rather quickly?"

Nope, pretty normal... Every 3 years or so they put out the new OS. 1995, 1998, 2000, 2001 (very late in year) - XP, 2006 Vista. 2009 would be the time frame for the next one.

XP was one of their longest lived OS's. They wanted Vista to be more complete when it came out. However, they let hardware manufactures like Dell, Gateway.. dictate the power of the systems they could put the OS on.... So, MS made cut back editions that could be put onto a cheap $500. systems and just be able to turn on.... Bad, bad idea. Let's hope they do not make that mistake again.


RE: What's the rush?
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 12:23:18 PM , Rating: 2
Well, there is no denying that Apple is selling considerably more Macs these days than it ever has done and the majority of those new customers were likely Microsoft's previously. Whether this has any influence on the release of Windows 7 is up for debate but I am certain that Microsoft wants this release to stem the flow of users migrating to Apple and Linux. What this release won't do, however, is encourage anyone to switch back - Apple will need to fall on their sword (again) for that to happen.


Banned
By TomZ on 11/12/2008 9:33:24 AM , Rating: 1
Jason, you should be banned from any reporting on Vista/Windows 7. 'nuff said.




RE: Banned
By Spuke on 11/12/2008 9:43:18 AM , Rating: 2
Why? You should explain yourself.


RE: Banned
By bhieb on 11/12/2008 10:04:10 AM , Rating: 3
Normally I'd agree, I'm not huge Jason fan either, but this one actually seemed pretty balanced and came off as somewhat positive.


RE: Banned
By snownpaint on 11/12/2008 10:16:50 AM , Rating: 5
Does it have to be positive? It should only have to be factual; good, bad or ugly..


RE: Banned
By bhieb on 11/12/2008 10:37:35 AM , Rating: 4
No not at all, and I agree. However normally there is an obvious bias and only 1 side of the story is told (or it may barely be touched apon). Here though he contrasted both sides quite nicely the pros/cons and like you pointed out he basically let the chips fall where they may good bad or whatnot. The opinions expressed where fair and not overly critical. And to some extent it should be more than factual, if you want factual tap into the AP wire and just get the raw press releases. Most people like a little editor opinion as long as it is clear that it is opinion and not wholly based on facts.


RE: Banned
By mondo1234 on 11/12/2008 11:09:00 AM , Rating: 2
I remember the good ole days when there was only Windows Fanboys, Mac Fanboys and Linux Fanboys. Now the Windows camp has divided into XP Fanboys, Vista Fanboys and the soon to be Windows 7 Fanboys.


RE: Banned
By just4U on 11/13/2008 7:09:39 PM , Rating: 2
Your wrong about Vista Fanboys. None of us are that. We are just people in the know is all. Probably the same crowd who finally got people to adopt xp, win98 and win95. It's a vicious cycle but at some point or another people need to realize that moving past their current Operating system is ok. <shrug>


Faint prase
By JAB on 11/12/2008 9:57:16 AM , Rating: 2
I knew vista was in trouble when no one at MS could give a good exciting reason to upgrade. Now the biggest selling point is 'mot as bad as vista'. I like windows it is all I use it is such a shame to see MS so lost.




RE: Faint prase
By snownpaint on 11/12/2008 10:13:32 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed..

MS seems to miss the point on selling new products. Offering better stability, faster run times, ability to upgrade without having to buy new machines, increased security and remote help fixing, and better GUI. This is a OS, not a high end video game. MS should really look at what a majority of their sales go to, The Business Community. Why would a company want to spend money on a new OS and machines (GPU) when what they have works fine now, especially with 3 party software that offers much of what the New OS touts..


RE: Faint prase
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 12:10:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Offering better stability, faster run times, ability to upgrade without having to buy new machines, increased security and remote help fixing, and better GUI. This is a OS, not a high end video game.
Yet Microsoft dominates the entire business industry where stability, speed, and security are all the main reasons that it is used over other OS's. Anyone who thinks that OSX is a 'stable' and 'secure' OS has no idea what they are talking about. OSX is unix based, I can just never understand how they strayed so far from the stable and secure OS that is unix. Apples business strategy is actually locking them out of the biggest market, yes OSX is great for a novice user, or someone who only surfs the net, writes emails and listens to music, but 'iLife' is not going to make OSX more suited for business use, quite the opposite actually.


RE: Faint prase
By snownpaint on 11/12/2008 2:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
Again.. Yes.. MS dominates the Business Industry with XP.. Now they are asking that industry to give up a solid working system to upgrade machines and software, with something that is NOT "offering better stability, faster run times, ability to upgrade without having to buy new machines, increased security and remote help fixing, and better GUI"

Second, Where in this post did i bring Up Apple?

But being you went there..

Apple has gone in the direction of controlling all hardware and software on their machines, which cuts down on 3rd party issues with hardware interface and endless Drivers needed for internals..


RE: Faint prase
By kelmon on 11/13/2008 12:40:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyone who thinks that OSX is a 'stable' and 'secure' OS has no idea what they are talking about.


With respect, the Mac OS seems to have no issues with stability and the only advice I will take on security will need to come from a trusted expert on the subject. Anyone stating that the Mac OS is not secure without having audited the source code is not to be trusted, particularly when there is no real-world evidence to uphold the statement. Until there is an audit, or a high number of exploits appear, I will remain perfectly happy with the security of the Mac OS. This said, I am happy to accept that exploits probably do exist and that Apple's advertisements probably stretch the truth a bit.

The Mac's suitability for business also greatly depends on your business. The suggestion that the Mac is only suitable for novices or those who want to perform basic computing tasks is rather insulting and stretches the truth. Apple continues to target the creative industries and I believe that is where they will continue to focus their "business" direction. Companies in those areas swear by the Macintosh platform.

Finally, it is worth noting that the presence of Apple's iLife suite of software applications is unlikely to have any influence on a business's decision to adopt the Mac platform. I will agree that iLife will not support an adoption but it certainly won't detract. Rather, what is important is the presence of software that supports the goals of your organisation. Again, that is going to depend on what sort of business you do. Under your logic, Windows would be less suitable for business because it comes with world renown office timewaster, Solitaire. And we both know that statement is nonsense, not least because a company can choose for it not to be installed, just like iLife on the Mac.


Windows Hate
By chizow on 11/12/2008 10:13:20 AM , Rating: 3
It should be obvious now that the hip trend is to bash the new Windows OS while fully embracing the previous one. Once Windows 7 releases, expect widespread acceptance of Vista. I'm personally waiting for Mojave myself...I heard its awesome. /roll.

The subjective and anecdotal evidence in this article makes it difficult to take anything written about Windows 7 seriously. Apps feeling "nippy-er" launching from desktop? Really? Were they running their previous Vista systems on a netbook or something?

quote:
But how bad was Vista really? Honestly, Vista was a pretty good OS. The vast majority of DailyTech staff have at least one Vista machine in the house. While the OS certainly had its limitations, it brought dramatic improvements to the Windows GUIs and security. The OS's biggest problem, for the home user was something Microsoft can't be blamed for -- poor hardware partner support.


Amazing Jason actually gives Vista credit where credit is due! Its only buried 3/4th down his 30th anti-Vista/MS article, but there it is.

And MS still has to shoulder much of the blame for Vista's early compatibility problems, at least from a gamer/hardware perspective, as they drastically changed the WDDM video driver and the audio stack without giving vendors sufficient time to qualify their parts. The video problems were significant enough that they released 4-5 specific Hot Fixes prior to SP1.




RE: Windows Hate
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 12:22:29 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
as they drastically changed the WDDM video driver and the audio stack without giving vendors sufficient time to qualify their parts.
They had their time, just as they had their time upon the XP release which also feature an entirely rewriting audio stack and video drivers.
Don't forget that longhorn releases were available as early as 2003, to think that in a 5 year span, even if the base kernel was not finalized until 2005 that these manufacturers did not have enough time is laughable.

Manufacturers just plain figure that upon an OS release, the market is still relatively small compared to the previous OS's userbase. So why spend a bunch of time creating drivers for a new OS when most of your customers are still using the old one. This was the stance for many manufacturers, some were worse than others, (creative) but MS gave them ample time to come up with stable drivers. What made matters worse is that MS required drivers to be signed, and this required 64 bit drivers for devices as well as 32 bit. This was done to make sure that development for 64 bit drivers did not flounder.(Windows 7 is suppose to be the last 32 bit OS release for Microsoft)

This time around MS has taken a different stance and basically said, you will not be supported unless you follow our rules, although with no major kernel changes, 7 drivers will be very similar to Vistas.

P.S Video issues could almost all be traced back to video drivers, Nvidia especially had many issues.


RE: Windows Hate
By chizow on 11/12/2008 2:52:48 PM , Rating: 2
The audio and video changes came late in development, which was a large part of the reason Vista was delayed so long to begin with. Comparing early versions of Longhorn is irrelevant since MS essentially scrapped development and started over in an attempt to make the kernel more secure. Changes to the audio and video stacks were a direct result of this initiative.

Also comparing XP to Vista in terms of adaptation and compatibility is a bit of a joke, as XP was just an improved version of Win2K and still had significant problems (and hate directed at it as a result). Windows 7 is to Vista what XP is to 2K, the parallelism there is pretty clear. 7 will still have its bugs and will undoubtedly be a popular whipping boy, but historically, should that come as any surprise?

P.S. When video hardware vendors and game makers alike are linking to MS Hot Fixes that largely undo everything Vista's WDDM implented, like the virtual memory copy of the frame buffer, I'd say its pretty good indication MS was more at fault. They've also made significant updates and hot fixes for problems with 2GB or 4GB+, along with my personal Vista pet peeve, USB driver problems. Simple enough test anyways, see if you have more problems with an unpatched version of Vista with new video drivers, or a patched version of Vista with old video drivers.


PC World: Anything but Windows
By MrDiSante on 11/12/2008 10:51:48 AM , Rating: 4
I think that
quote:
"All things considered, I'd rather stick with my Linux desktops and Mac OS X."

just about sums up the average PC World/Infoworld article article. I will wait until a reputable source like Anandtech, Bit-tech or any of the other reputable publications come out with a review

As for benchmarks and bloat: Anandtech, a publication that I trust far more than PC Pro or PC World, stated that on average, at launch Vista was only, on average 5% slower than XP at most benchmarks. http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=29...

So what are these claims of "bloat" and "slowness" based on? The RAM usage. To that: XP was launched in 2001 and today SP3 requires about 110 MB at boot; Windows 7 is going to be launched in 2009 and requires (according to this article) about 800 MB at boot. Back then 128 MB was standard on a system. Today 3-4 GB is.

Your actual performance is maybe affected by about 5%. Your RAM usage is a smaller percentage than what it was with XP. You get a far more secure, stable, robust and more user-friendly OS instead. Stop complaining. Honestly.




cant stand vista
By LumbergTech on 11/12/2008 2:06:37 PM , Rating: 2
i cant stand vista, its slower to respond, its clunky..there are some real problems with the audio system

I have a 3.2 ghz core 2 duo and i can tell a significant difference between xp and vista even with 4gb of ram..

it just feels slow as hell it makes me impatient just doing the most basic tasks..

when i build a computer, i want it to run at full throttle, im not willing to wait because my computer is too slow..

i spend at least 5 hours a day on the pc..if not more..between my hobbies and work..i cannot stand to feel that my productivity is constantly held back by a sluggish machine

i think vista just came too early in comparison to hardware..they should have waited another year




RE: cant stand vista
By Targon on 11/12/2008 9:08:25 PM , Rating: 2
What do you have, a poorly configured Dell with Intel graphics? With 4GB of RAM, Vista is not that much slower, unless your GPU can't handle DirectX 9 in hardware.


More and more test....
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 11/12/2008 9:53:50 AM , Rating: 2
So when do they start the "crash tests"? It's always good to know how a OS will preform in a crash. :P

I just hope they promote the idea... You need to spend more then $800 on you system to have the OS run correctly.... Having so many editions of Vista and letting manufactures try to put it on those cheap $500 systems really caused the most damage to Vista... everything else just snow balled from that point.




Makes me money
By AlvinCool on 11/12/2008 9:55:01 AM , Rating: 2
I have 4 small accounts in addition to my regular job. With the money I make supporting them I pay for my computer upgrades, my motorcycle and some of my vacation. About $1200 of that came this year from me begging them NOT to buy Vista machines and having them do it anyway. So I make $1200 downgrading them to XP. Vista isn't bad, but these are simple users and they want a machine that works the majority of the time. In fact I have to downgrade a Toshiba L355 this week to XP because the automatic upgrades from Microsoft are causing it to go into the blue screen of death. I backed up Vista to a setpoint 5 days ago and now it works as long as I set it for no updates. Our company spends about 2 mil a year on an enterprise agreement and we don't want Vista and are waiting for Win7. Vista is stable on alot of platforms, but not a large enough percentage of them for deployment.




Really shaping up!
By Locutus465 on 11/12/2008 10:21:17 AM , Rating: 2
Well for starts I think the reviewers have it right when they say what end users really care about his how responsive the UI feels. This is very true, Windows 7 doesn't need to dominate vista in actual application performance (personally I think vista is fine here anyway), but if you can make the UI much more responsive on lower end hardware then I think Microsoft will have effectivly solved vista's "performance problems".

Though I have to say while I agree that vista could stand some improvement on base level hardware like my laptop, if you give the OS proper resources it's shockingly fast! In fact I strongly feel like on my desktop (Phenom quad 2.5Ghz, 4GB Ram, Radeon 3870) Areo is much quicker than the older GDI based UI. I really don't think Windows XP could feel as fast and smooth, as we've really already hit a point of diminishing returns throwing more hardware at that UI.

I'm happy to read that UAC has been improved, my hope is that they make it more like Linux and require manual elevations. I doubt they will, but I'm hoping anyway.

All in all though, I can't say whether or not I'll be rushing out to upgrade to Windows 7 from vist though. I'm really going to have to consider whether it is worth the potential headaches or not, I might be tempted on my laptop though if UI performance is significantly improved.




By deadrats on 11/12/2008 10:45:21 AM , Rating: 2
allow me to begin by pointing out that i use XP 64 as my primary OS; having said that it my belief that instead of microsoft trying to improve on it's existing code base, which is huge, by adding more layers and trying to fix the old layers, they should download a copy of PC-BSD, a nice light weight, full featured, easy to use BSD based distribution, the BSD license allows them to use the code, and slap DX on top of that and call it a day. PC-BSD is fast as hell, stable as a rock, secure, you can install Mono which give it .net compatibility, Wine which allows you to run many pieces of windows software and quite frankly doesn't require an investment of 100 million dollars (as vista is rumored to have cost) nor does it require a development team of hundreds of people.

or even better, download a copy of solaris, 64bit edition, and use that as a template, but for the love of God stop making the OS ever fatter.




No need to upgrade
By BigPeen on 11/12/2008 11:40:33 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe people are starting to realize there's no need to upgrade computers. The vast majority of people don't need anywhere NEAR the latest and greatest. A 3 year old desktop with xp is just fine for 95% of users. MS knows this, and they have to manufacture reasons to keep buying new machines.




The real mess?
By Cache on 11/12/2008 1:20:20 PM , Rating: 2
Part of what utterly doomed Vista from real adoption by the masses was the multiple-tiered approach that no one really could understand at a glance. I agree that there should be some tiers, but logically who is going to waste time searching for the (mostly minor) differences between different versions?

Microsoft would do itself a big favor with Windows 7 if it had its marketing team learn a few things about human behavior. I don't mind comparing a few different cars, but I'm not going to compare all of them.




What about high demand users
By tygrus on 11/12/2008 4:15:38 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft needs to stop focussing on the 'Fisher-Price' home/basic users. What about the corporate users, designers, research, developers, IT .. any one who has >20 large apps installed, >6 apps in use at the one time. They try to make the user interface 'user friendly' but the history of changes have been more disruptive and counter-productive.




great thought's
By MafiaMan on 11/12/2008 10:31:30 PM , Rating: 2
Loving the comments i was reading for past 1/2h or soo .
I'm the one who loves vista and expetcting Windows7 .Also i have OSX notebook in my house and it was interesting work on it for first couple of month but in the end i came back to windows. Even OSX get's slower with time while vista doesn't .From the view of security ,one's who say that OSX is not that voulnerable becouse it's used from 9-10% of people are completly right. I'm agree with those who say ''most of people who hate vista are those who heard that from somebody else or used early version's of it''. I've been using vista from late beta version simly becouse i got bored of often freezing XP and BSOD's. Now when i have to work on some XP pc i start to get headache and rashes haha.Also , are you XP people going to die becouse of >5% worse performance in games or syntetic benchmarks when you can enjoy in benefits of vista? The only thing i hate in vista is that sidebar. It slow's entire pc and boot-up. Even MS figured that and resolve it in W7 . Vista was like intro to W7 which will be the right thing. A week ago i deleted vistaU SP1 and started using Windows 7 . On startup it uses just 500mb of memory which is improvement . Also i like the thing that my batery last 10min longer with on 45min overall is veeery good and show's W7 is less demanding.Ohh and , fan's running on lower rpm now :D . It really feals ''nimble'' even on my notebook (PentimM770@2.5ghz ,2gb,x700). I thought new flashy taskbar will slow thing but it's just the oposite :D. Love it. A mouse geasture with windows is nice :) . All in all i can't wait new beta's to come out :D




You all have missed one point !!
By kensiko on 11/13/2008 8:48:29 PM , Rating: 2
Look here, there is a special version for netbooks:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/display/200811...

So the current Windows Seven is not lighter, the light version will be.




Well done, Jason
By Yawgm0th on 11/13/2008 9:24:47 PM , Rating: 2
This follow-up was admittedly much more than I expected. It is well-written and better-researched. Kudos.




SHUTUP EVERYONE!!!!
By zshift on 11/12/2008 1:17:03 PM , Rating: 1
ok, this is getting really heated here!

vista-haters are about to write death-threats to vista-lovers!! this is insane!

Here's my 2cents:
Vista is slower than xp, fact. Well, if you turn off a bunch of unused services and features (windows sidebar, tabletpc functionality, readyboost if you have enough ram, AERO (really boosts performance if you have any nongamer card), and a bunch of other stuff, then vista is actually about as "fast" as xp is for me on the same computer.
Sure, games run faster on xp, but if you cared that much about gaming, then stop bitching and spend some extra dough on better hardware.
And i definitely felt the pain of a lack of third-party support for vista. I work at best buy, and it was horrible trying to sell antivirus programs, hardware aside from graphic cards, etc. But as time went on, everything works now.

so get over it! vista has been out for a while and xp WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT, JUST LIKE WIN2K, WINDOWS 3.x, DOS, ETC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S.: I found one MAJOR benefit to vista that the "average" person will love: solitaire is WAY more fun to play. FACT




Dense
By Smilin on 11/12/2008 5:47:18 PM , Rating: 1
"Finally, and most importantly, something has to be done to allow the OS to run leaner and use less memory and system resources."

No, no, no, no!

People simply do not get this. More memory usage is not a bad thing if that memory is being put to good use. System cache is the one that gets the most blame. Why would you want a system that doesn't cache anything?

Everyone says, "XP used less memory than Vista". The more correct statement is, "XP was not capable of using it's memory like Vista."

Remember: the system cache is available for anything to use. If some app needs the memory it gets freed essentially instantaneously. Being "in use" does not render that memory otherwise unusable.

Ideally you would want your system using nearly 100% of it's memory all the time. Anything else is a waste of hardware capability.

These "professionals" that do reviews and write articles should either get a clue or stop writing.




Wait, What?
By Ryanman on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Wait, What?
By Aloonatic on 11/12/2008 10:00:09 AM , Rating: 2
Out of interest, do each of Apple's OS X releases require a new set of drivers each time they release a new version of their OS?

It seems odd that both partners and Microsoft seem to have trouble sorting drivers out. It's in both of their interests to get this sorted as quickly a possible, surely?

In saying that, I can't say that I've had any problem with drivers in Vista, just general printer strangeness from time to time, but that seems to be consistent with my experience of printers throughout the ages more than a Vista thing.


RE: Wait, What?
By borismkv on 11/12/2008 10:12:39 AM , Rating: 3
Apple has to generate drivers for a very small set of hardware, which are loaded into the OS automatically. Considering the vast array of hardware available for PCs and how many different manufacturers there are, it would be impossible for Microsoft to make sure that each one is on the ball with drivers. And many manufacturers shortcut driver development to cut costs and raise their initial margins. They don't really seem to care that poor drivers actually diminish their hardware's capabilities and adaptation rates.


RE: Wait, What?
By LinkRS on 11/12/2008 10:17:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple has to generate drivers for a very small set of hardware, which are loaded into the OS automatically. Considering the vast array of hardware available for PCs and how many different manufacturers there are, it would be impossible for Microsoft to make sure that each one is on the ball with drivers. And many manufacturers shortcut driver development to cut costs and raise their initial margins. They don't really seem to care that poor drivers actually diminish their hardware's capabilities and adaptation rates


This is true. Unlike Windows, most Mac drivers are written by Apple! They are included in the base install, and are updated through Apple Update. However, driver updates are few and far between. It seems like many (such as the graphic drivers) are written for stability, and performance suffers for it. Since you can't install the drivers yourself, you have no way of knowing how poor they really are. My MacBook Pro still has very poor performing OpenGL due to the pathetic nVidia driver that Apple currenlty uses. With Snow Leopard on the way, I would be suprised if Apple releases a new video driver at all.


RE: Wait, What?
By Ryanman on 11/12/2008 10:46:44 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think that Mac drivers are slow... Mac hardware just isn't as fast. Your macbook shouldn't be able to handle graphics intensive applications just based upon that. I'm not saying that Mac drivers aren't stable, but like everyone has said thousands of times: it's one hardware set for one platform.


RE: Wait, What?
By FITCamaro on 11/12/2008 11:13:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why can't MS be blamed? It's part of their job description to encourage hardware support.


Do you blame the store that sold you the product because the product was defective?

It isn't Microsoft's job to write others drivers. They gave hardware manufacturers over a year to get their drivers done.


RE: Wait, What?
By MickKelleher on 11/12/2008 11:50:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:

It isn't Microsoft's job to write others drivers. They gave hardware manufacturers over a year to get their drivers done.


It's only really in the hardware manufacturers interests to put a lot of development into new drivers when they want to release a "new" product and the OS has enough market penetration.

You're right it's not MS job to write drivers, but it's in their interest to ensure there are stable drivers available before they release the OS.

If it means helping out the hardware guys to get the drivers out the door quicker then that should have been the route they should have take with Vista.

I still have a lot of games that run on Vista 64bit without EAX support. If I open up the same games on XP/Server2003 they have all the bells and whistles. Driver problems are still plaguing Vista even with modern hardware such as the Creative X-fi.


RE: Wait, What?
By robinthakur on 11/12/2008 11:51:48 AM , Rating: 2
I woudl be interested to see the justification in NVidia and the other's minds as to why exactly, decent drivers were not written and ready well before the Vista launch.

Perhaps they didn't think it would be that successful, or perhaps they didn't want it to be successful...Maybe they were annoyed at MS for changing the rules so drastically on driver kernel access and believed the fud they read on the net about pre-release Vista.

Therefore while its not Microsoft's fault per se, I can't believe that nobody noticed the problems until after launch or that they failed to notice how their success is closely tied to manufacturers being able to release reliable drivers...It looks like they are now heading in the right direction though.


RE: Wait, What?
By omnicronx on 11/12/2008 12:25:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It isn't Microsoft's job to write others drivers. They gave hardware manufacturers over a year to get their drivers done.
Far more than that actually, It was a year as of the final kernel release, companies like ATI and Nvidia should have been all over this long before the final release of the kernel.


RE: Wait, What?
By zshift on 11/12/08, Rating: 0
"Game reviewers fought each other to write the most glowing coverage possible for the powerhouse Sony, MS systems. Reviewers flipped coins to see who would review the Nintendo Wii. The losers got stuck with the job." -- Andy Marken














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