Print 55 comment(s) - last by muhahaaha.. on Jul 7 at 4:09 PM

Fraudulent apps dominated the sales ranks in iTunes, taking advantage of hacked accounts to rake in thousands in purchases.  (Source: The Next Web)

YouTube was also attacked this weekend, thanks to a vulnerability in the commenting system.  (Source: Fortune)
Ring of rogue developers reportedly steal thousands from users, Apple keeps quiet on mess

According to a story which TheNextWeb broke over the holiday weekend, hundreds, if not thousands of iTunes accounts have been hacked over the holiday weekend, and a variety of methods used to ring up hundreds of dollars in fraudulent iTunes app store and music charges.

One developer, Thuat Nguyen, used the stolen accounts to apparently propel his apps to to filling 40 of the 50 top spots on the iTunes iBook section.  The apps -- mostly three series of books called Conan, Vien Ngoc Rong, and Thuy Hu -- retailed for $4.99 a piece and have since been apparently removed from the app store by Apple.

Other apps -- the Charismaist app, Wishii Network apps (which dominated 29 of the top 50 iPad Travel app spots), and developer Storm 8's apps -- reportedly have also been involved in the scheme. 

Some users report lesser sums -- around $150.  Others report losing around $600.  One user even reports, "Unlike what others have reported, we were taken for over $1400.00 on what looks like in-game credits for some game called World War at $160 a transaction and some music. Again, Apple did nothing to help but give the password reset advice and removing of the credit card info."

Some users report getting a couple of small purchases, then being hit with a single extortionate purchase for a $90 or more app.

Apple is reportedly having a mixed track record when it comes to the problems.  One iTunes user, redguitarfreak, posts on Twitter, "someone hacked my iTunes account info and downloaded about 120 bucks worth of apps.  Got it all back though!"

Another Twitter user, YourNYDreamHome, reports a less fortunate experience, stating, "I'm ready to shoot someone at iTunes.  Someone hacked by account and spent 100s of $s and they won't let me talk to a REAL PERSON.  Augh!!"

Apple has not officially responded to the problems.  It's unclear at this point how the hackers got their paws on the iTunes account passwords.  It's recommended that iTunes users remove credit cards numbers, for the time being, from their accounts (use gift cards instead) and change their passwords to more secure methods like long pass-phrases.  

In separate, perhaps unrelated news, the internet's top video site YouTube was also hacked over the holiday weekend.  Hackers discovered that information enclosed in <script> tags at the beginning of a comments post, would be put onto the page -- including redirects to shock pages, malware redirects, and obnoxious visual effects.  Justin Bieber videos were among the first to be hit, reportedly.

Some are blaming the hackers at the message board 4chan for the attacks because of posts made referencing attacks to come over the weekend.  It is unclear, though, exactly who masterminded the majority of the attacks on YouTube.

has responded to this issue, saying that it disabled comments temporarily while fixing the issue.  A spokesperson states, "Comments were temporarily hidden by default within an hour [of discovering the problem], and we released a complete fix for the issue in about two hours. We're continuing to study the vulnerability to help prevent similar issues in the future."

Updated 7/6/2010 @ 11:34 am

Apple has released an official statement regarding the iTunes breach according to Engadget:

The developer Thuat Nguyen and his apps were removed from the App Store for violating the developer Program License Agreement, including fraudulent purchase patterns. 

Developers do not receive any iTunes confidential customer data when an app is downloaded. 

If your credit card or iTunes password is stolen and used on iTunes we recommend that you contact your financial institution and inquire about canceling the card and issuing a chargeback for any unauthorized transactions. We also recommend that you change your iTunes account password immediately. For more information on best practices for password security visit

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Treating customers right?
By stmok on 7/5/2010 9:54:42 AM , Rating: 5
Just an observation...This article feels more like how a company should treat customers when the crapper hits the fan.

In the example discussed;

(1) Apple
=> Deny the issue. (Treat security issues as PR problems.)
=> User is left to defend themselves. (Change passwords, remove credit cards numbers, etc.)

(2) Google
=> Disable the affected feature immediately. Fix and admit to the problem. (Take responsibility)
=> Study the problem for future prevention. (What did we do or didn't do that caused this issue?)

While no company is perfect; Google approached security issues in the right manner.

RE: Treating customers right?
By Tony Swash on 7/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: Treating customers right?
By Strunf on 7/5/2010 12:34:19 PM , Rating: 4
I'm pretty sure no decent company is dependent on the Google search position, if you don't invest in all kinds of traffic sources chances are you like to live on edge... I actually applaud Google for keeping secret it's search algorithms and for changing them once in while, I'm tired of seeing websites selling crap coming top on the search results just cause they know how to bend the system to favor them!

RE: Treating customers right?
By Tony Swash on 7/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: Treating customers right?
By aharris on 7/6/2010 12:39:22 PM , Rating: 2
Or your company could do any of the following:

1) Sell a worthwhile, unique product that people desire.
2) Actively attempt to generate customer loyalty.
3) Build some brand loyalty that incites word-of-mouth marketing as opposed to relying on Google-fed business.

RE: Treating customers right?
By keith524 on 7/7/2010 8:38:24 AM , Rating: 3
4)If your business is 100% dependent on your Google ranking then maybe it's a good idea to pay for Google AdWords. Then you are always on top of the searches regardless of the Google algorithm.

RE: Treating customers right?
By sebmel on 7/7/2010 2:12:10 PM , Rating: 1
Stmok makes some accusations:

"Apple: Deny the issue. (Treat security issues as PR problems.)"

No they didn't, they stayed silent.

"User is left to defend themselves. (Change passwords, remove credit cards numbers, etc.)"

No they didn't. There was no 'hack', as J Mick misleads. This was a phishing attack, there was no hack to fix. About 400 Apple customers, of 150 million, fell prey to it.

The theft occurred over the weekend. On the first monday after it Apple deleted the relevant apps. On the following Tuesday or wednesday they responded to Engadget.

Of course they left clients to change passwords: who else should, or could, log into their bank accounts?

So within 2 working days Apple:

Deleted the phishing apps
Banned their developer
Implemented greater PIN number checking for purchases
Didn't fix a hack because there was no hack to fix

What is reasonable to ask is: should they have sent out a general message to 150 million customers based on an attack involving 400 of them. Or found a way to target that message to the victims.

I think they should have tried to notify the victims.

Stmok, your inaccuracies weaken a valid point. Beware of J Mick's misrepresentations.

RE: Treating customers right?
By sebmel on 7/7/2010 2:15:55 PM , Rating: 1

Apple didn't contact Engadget:
"Apple pinged our old buddy Clayton Morris with the damage report"

By theArchMichael on 7/5/2010 2:32:24 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe you shouldn't use black hat SEO ... If you have a site with legitimate content and keywords without redirects and keyword loading there is no way that you'd see that kind of fluctuation.
If someone was looking for the stuff you were selling they would find it on google. I doubt when google optimizes its algorithms it is attempting to help those sellers who are exploiting the system to push their wares onto google's patrons.

RE: Treating customers right?
By dark matter on 7/5/2010 3:25:57 PM , Rating: 4
Are you talking about Sponsored links here? If you are not then why do you think Google owes you a living?

The reason it keeps it Search alorithms secret is to prevent guys like you from just sitting on the top of Google and expecting the money to flow in.

As already mentioned, you were caught doing things against the terms and condition if you dropped 200 places. This is called a penalty and should teach you in the future not to do Black Hat SEO. Most likely one of your competitors twigged on to what you were doing and reported you.

Tough, next time find a reputable SEO company.

RE: Treating customers right?
By Tony Swash on 7/6/10, Rating: -1
RE: Treating customers right?
By muhahaaha on 7/7/2010 4:04:58 PM , Rating: 1

I don't sell anything on the web via Google or anything else. I am retired. Think before you type.

I think you made a typo... here, fixed if for you...

"I am retarded".

RE: Treating customers right?
By sprockkets on 7/5/2010 11:29:57 AM , Rating: 1
(2) Google => Disable the affected feature immediately. Fix and admit to the problem. (Take responsibility) => Study the problem for future prevention. (What did we do or didn't do that caused this issue?)

Two things. First, Android has issues, like downright intellectual theft. Not being able to even buy paid apps is a problem in many countries.

Second, Phil Schiller of Apple has started an investigation.

You have to remember, if someone took your CC and spent $1000 at a fancy restaurant, you don't go to the restaurant to get your money back. That's your bank's job.

Btw, according to another source, "Developers are required to supply real bank account numbers. Apple take the time to verify the information, sometimes weeks, before a developer can sell paid apps in the app store.

Beside the money from apps will take 30 days from the close of the billing period to be released to the developer. For example, money from this month sales will reach developers on or after August 1st. This gives Apple advantage in case something like this happens."

Seriously though, Apple/Google/the whole world goes though billions of sales. To have an issue crop up from time to time isn't anything to write about.

RE: Treating customers right?
By Strunf on 7/5/2010 12:39:13 PM , Rating: 3
So Apple holds your money in hostage for a full month before giving it to the developer? man if we were speaking of a single sell that would be peanuts but if we multiply that for millions (or whatever number of apps they sell per month) that represents a lot of interests coming in!

RE: Treating customers right?
By Iaiken on 7/5/2010 12:51:55 PM , Rating: 1
I don't think that Apple can keep the interest generated on your revenues. The consignment law that this type of sale falls under states that the money must be held in an interest bearing account and that the interest is payable to the consignee (the developer in this case).

The only way apple could keep the interest was if it was a commission style payroll.

I dislike apple as much as the next app developer, but please don't say things that aren't true.

RE: Treating customers right?
By sprockkets on 7/5/10, Rating: 0
RE: Treating customers right?
By lewisc on 7/5/2010 4:48:40 PM , Rating: 2
This is very common, if not universal, business practice. Businesses typical manager their working capital flows very carefully; taking customer funds as quickly as possible and extending their own payable days (or days until paying suppliers) as much as practicable without damaging business relationships. At the bottom of any business invoice you'll see agreed payment terms. These typically range in anything from 7 to 60 or even 90 days from the invoice date.

Liquidity is a key success factor in business, in any sector, so managing cash flow is always crucial. To hold cash as an asset means greater flexibility and scope for short term investment.

RE: Treating customers right?
By Scott66 on 7/6/2010 12:15:00 PM , Rating: 2
Visa does this to merchants every month. It takes at least three weeks for it to cough up the credit card purchases to the businesses. And the CC companies keep up to 3 percent due to the difficulties in handling all that money. Then they charge you a monthly rental fee.

This is why merchants prefer debit cards as they get the money in their accounts immediately and the fees should be much lower.

Canada has Interac which is a non profit organization that handles all the debit card transactions and charges a flat transaction fee calculated yearly to just cover the infrastructure and staffing costs. VISA and MC wanted to come in and compete in the Debit card market by forcing the merchants to use their service if they still wanted to use Credit cards.

Fortunately our government told them to fly a kite and regulated how Debit cards could be marketed.

By Alexstarfire on 7/5/2010 1:45:38 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think intellectual theft is really a problem with Android. I'm not saying it's not a problem, but it has little to do with the OS used and more to do with policies and such. Obviously something needs to be done about it if it's really as bad as they say it is in that link.

RE: Treating customers right?
By dark matter on 7/5/2010 3:30:14 PM , Rating: 3
Apple has a LEGAL DUTY to secure your personal data. Last time I checked (no pun intended) the fancy restaurant doesn't hold ANY personal data about me NOT LEAST my friggin credit card details.

Stop making excuses.

RE: Treating customers right?
By lewisc on 7/5/2010 4:52:50 PM , Rating: 2
It may not be the case of all restaurants, but I've personally seen cases where my card details are disclosed on the restaurant's copy of the credit card receipt, when I've been handed the wrong copy by the waiter.

It may only have been the full card number, I don't recall specific detail, but it was certainly not the version with redacted details supplied to the customer. This may be down to specific POS systems though or the UK banking system, I can't say.

RE: Treating customers right?
By sprockkets on 7/5/2010 5:37:00 PM , Rating: 1
Apple has a LEGAL DUTY to secure your personal data. Last time I checked (no pun intended) the fancy restaurant doesn't hold ANY personal data about me NOT LEAST my friggin credit card details. Stop making excuses.

Never said they didn't have a duty to protect your data.

But I also wouldn't expect Amazon or newegg to refund my money either if it were used fraudulently, because they like Apple can simply say, "Well, we can't tell if it is or isn't you." Once your bank gets involved they know you aren't messing around.

RE: Treating customers right?
By bplewis24 on 7/6/2010 12:24:30 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think the restaurant is a good analogy. The restaurant is not your account holder, it's basically a faceless third-party entity to the transaction. It could be any restaurant, or store, etc, in that analogy.

In this case, it's more like a person walking into your bank and withdrawing money from your account to make purchases. The bank does have at least some responsibility to make sure your account is secure from unauthorized use. In this case, iTunes accounts are being hacked.

Since Apple forces you to use iTunes for every media transaction, they bear all of the responsibility in ensuring that their customer's account security is not compromised due to the actions of anybody but themselves (like leaving their login info lying around, or allowing somebody to use their laptop, etc).

At least, that's my take on it.


RE: Treating customers right?
By Sazar on 7/6/2010 6:21:19 PM , Rating: 2
If the theft occurs as a direct result of that restaurants incompetence, they are definitely culpable.

Yes, you contact your bank and all that stuff, but if the theft is occurring because the restaurant, as a result of fraudulent activity, is charging your card over and over, you definitely take it up with them as well.

RE: Treating customers right?
By melgross on 7/6/2010 9:01:17 PM , Rating: 2
What a bunch of BS.

Last year, my account was hacked by someone buying two $50 gift certificates. I called Apple, and they immediately took the $100 off my bill, helped me to set another temp password that I could change as soon as I entered my account again. They also advised me to change my AmEX card, and even called me back several days later to make sure everything was ok.

I simply don't believe a lot of this stuff about them not wanting to do anything. I can believe, that with hundreds of accounts broken into at once, with multiple problems with each one, Apple is having some problems straightening it all out quickly.

As for Google, they've had so many break-ins of their accounts, that they number in the millions. What have they done about that, with Google mail passwords floating around the net, among other problems?


Your Just Holding it Wrong
By michal1980 on 7/5/2010 8:58:25 AM , Rating: 5
If you held itunes correctly, it would not do this.

RE: Your Just Holding it Wrong
By chick0n on 7/5/2010 9:52:38 AM , Rating: 1
^ this deserves a 6

RE: Your Just Holding it Wrong
By MonkeyPaw on 7/5/2010 9:54:17 AM , Rating: 4
Tired of getting your personal information stolen, resulting in unexpected expenses? Well, Apple has finally solved this problem! For just $29.99 a month, Apple will upgrade your iTunes account to the iProtect plan! The way iProtect works is revolutionary and magical. If your account information is ever stolen and used for unauthorized purchases, this monthly fee will go towards the cost of those purchases! No longer will you be hit with surprise charges when your statement arrives! (Account protection is limited to $29.99/month. Apple keeps the money at the end of the month. No refunds. $200 account termination fee may apply)

RE: Your Just Holding it Wrong
By TSS on 7/5/2010 7:17:06 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah thats right, go ahead. Just when apple could hardly get more evil, give them the idea to enter the insurance business. Next thing you know there will be a small disclaimer on all apple products:

*Disclaimer: Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day – accept this iProduct as a gift.

RE: Your Just Holding it Wrong
By muhahaaha on 7/7/2010 4:09:42 PM , Rating: 2
It's actually called the iCondom plan.

RE: Your Just Holding it Wrong
By messyunkempt on 7/6/2010 2:58:18 PM , Rating: 2
lol, reminds me of an article i recently read about the iphone..

According to some reports, it can appear to lose reception under exceptional circumstances, such as a nuclear winter, or someone holding it. Apple zealots were quick to point out that you can get around the problem entirely by placing the device on a velvet cushion and gazing at it and breathing through your nose and masturbating instead of making any calls

Quite vitriolic for the guardian but an amusing read..

RE: Your Just Holding it Wrong
By Aloonatic on 7/7/2010 5:10:11 AM , Rating: 2
I'm guessing that most of the American patrons of this site are not familiar with Charlie Brooker. If you're bored and want something fun to watch on youTube, whilst also learning a little more about what is going on with the UK then you could do far worse than going to youTube and just searching for Charlie Brooker's stuff.

NewsWipe is fun, reporting on the state of the nations ability to handle/be informed about current events. ScreenWipe is a little dated, but pokes fun at our general TV viewing habits. Then there's GamesWipe, which is all about video/computer games and is a lot of fun too.

Word of warning. Whilst he is very funny, and he generally notes/comments on the same things that you might do, he is somewhat left-wing (hence being a Guardian columnist) so be prepared for him to slate anything remotely right-wing in the media given half a chance. In saying that, he is not afraid to give credit where credit is due but he does normally come at most things with prejudice when they are remotely conservative.

We're sorry!
By Iaiken on 7/5/2010 11:48:50 AM , Rating: 5
Justin Bieber videos were among the first to be hit, reportedly.

How many times does Canada need to say we're sorry for a "musician"?

Next thing you know, the US is going to invade Canada for the water and oil legitimized by a WMD list that includes: Bryan Adams, Celine Dion and Justin Bieber.

RE: We're sorry!
By themaster08 on 7/6/2010 12:40:32 PM , Rating: 2
Now now the Canadian government was apologised for Bryan Adams on several occasions.

RE: We're sorry!
By themaster08 on 7/6/2010 12:41:26 PM , Rating: 2
... *has* apologised.....

By Motoman on 7/5/2010 11:50:11 AM , Rating: 2
Obviously this is all just media propaganda attacking Apple again, because we all know how the media hates Apple and does everything it can to bring them down.

Because Apple exerts total control over the App Store, it's fundamentally impossible that any "fraudulent" apps could get in there, because it's a safe area policed by Apple for the protection of their customers (and because we can't have customers thinking for's tiresome). Therefore, it is an abject lie that any such "fraudulent" apps could have gotten into the App Store in the first place. A closed system is the best possible solution for everyone.

Secondly, there is no chance that any Apple-related product or service could be "hacked." Apple products are safe from all malicious attacks, unlike PCs that are born from the womb of a demonic hyena already infected with the Black Plague and pink eye.

I therefore call upon the hateful anti-Apple media to stop spreading their lies about the perfection that is Apple.

[/pirks /reader1 /Macolytes in general]

By damianrobertjones on 7/6/2010 6:10:19 PM , Rating: 3
Are you on drugs?

Then again, I sense a small amount of sarcasm in your post! Not sure :)

By piteq on 7/7/2010 10:43:53 AM , Rating: 3
Small? So I gues you usually giggle when hit with a brick? ;o)

This happened to me a month or two back
By kchase731 on 7/5/2010 9:23:15 AM , Rating: 5
My iTunes account was hacked a few months back. I started seeing emails of purchases I never made. So I attempted to call apple. I didnt get very far. iTunes has a 100% no refund policy, even better they do not have a customer support phone number, only email or chat.

The bill ended up around $1100 in less than 24 hrs. I saw the charges so fast that the funds had not actually transferred from my credit card. actually iTunes was tied to my paypal account and they were pretty good about it. They did hold the funds for a few weeks but they took care of stopping the transfer before apple got the $.

After about 50 emails to apple, they said that their billing system couldnt refund purchases and i was best to contact the FBI for id theft. PayPal and American Express actually blocked anything "apple" from my accounts. a few days later i saw more purchases now with no credit card at all on iTunes. My account balance was now negative, they said pay the charges and they will refund them thats the only way to get rid of a charge. F'n lairs. 4 days earlier they couldnt issue a refund.

Apple so money hungry allowed purchases to pass days after all my payment info was removed from my account.

In the end I have a negative balance on itunes, and no plans to use it ever again. funny part is in my 2 years with an iphone i may have made a total of around $15 in purchases on itunes. youd think $1100 overnight would raise concerns. not at apple.

By BZDTemp on 7/6/2010 12:46:44 PM , Rating: 1
I got hit on friday and contacted Apple right away. They suggested that a family member might have done the purchase and so on. All smelling of a standard reply as they for example claimed the purchases was made on a machine previously use to make purchase but I have never bought anything on iTunes. After a few more mails they:

- Offer no refund or take no responsibility.
- Claim to know what IP was used when purchasing but refuse to give it out claiming it for my own good in case something legal must be done.
- Suggest I go to the police
- Suggest my bank must withhold the payment.

The thing is I'm in the EU so consumer laws requires them to offer a full refund for 14 days. Strike 1.
They won't give the IP or any details while my money is involved. They might as well be stealing from me or having a computer mixup rather than there is a hacker involved. Strike 2.
Suggesting my bank must withhold the payment when they very well could fix it at their end. They can even see the music payed was never downloaded so what is stopping them. Strike 3.

As it stands now I will never trust Apple again and I recommend anyone using them to withhold their credit card info as it seems clear their security is not up to par :-(

By melgross on 7/7/2010 2:35:31 AM , Rating: 1
You're wrong about that.

By Chris Peredun on 7/5/2010 8:46:55 AM , Rating: 5
Delete System32?

Must have been those rogues from eBaumsworld again.

Damn them.

when are people going to wake up
By muhahaaha on 7/6/2010 3:27:23 PM , Rating: 3
when are people going to wake up to the fact that Apple is a horrible company? Makes me sick to think of all the suckers slurping up Job's PR Bull.

By Sazar on 7/6/2010 6:28:36 PM , Rating: 2
For what it's worth, they do make some decent products.

Definitely not magical unicorn material by any means, but they definitely have some decent products around.

The majority of the sales are simply a result of marketing and catering to a particular breed of people.

The only Apple product I have ever owned, and am likely to ever own, is the iPhone. I have contemplated getting an iPad for my parents because of the appeal of an instant-on device, but they are perfectly fine with their 15.4" Dell notebook for now and probably till Win 8 rolls along.

By StephR on 7/5/2010 10:58:32 AM , Rating: 2
In the past days/weeks... all you hear is complaints about Apple (Iphone 4 problems, Itunes hacks, Apple denying accusations and responsibility, bad service, etc...). I wonder why there still people considering this company over another for their products. I don't own any of their products and I personnaly won't be tempted to buy them when I kept reading about what happening recently!

RE: Wow!..........
By damianrobertjones on 7/5/2010 11:45:01 AM , Rating: 2
Probably due to the fact that the mass public never, ever get to hear this information, especially from Tech pages that they'll never visit.

When an Apple owner speaks to other apple owners or new people thinking of buying apple, they hardly ever have a bad thing to say even if somethings happened to them. Denial. New owners don't want to buck the trend and also keep quiet.

Thus the wheel keeps on turning and when there is a problem, lots of people jump on. I'd LOVE to read tweets and posts from lots of peeople saying, "Got the new iPhone 4, drops calls, taking it back". But... I don't.

It's about time it's public
By IT365247 on 7/6/2010 1:21:33 PM , Rating: 2
My account got hacked 6/25. My password was 11 characters, alphanumeric, no English words and only used for iTunes. Just 4 months old, never written and only entered when purchasing from the iPhone, itself. APPLE HAS A SECURITY PROBLEM. Bad guys charged $1.05, $34.99 and $69.98 before I noticed, all in one day. No email confirmation from iTunes. They used a hotmail address added to my account. Apple support? Non existent. Form letter responses only, stating the obvious... change your password and notify the bank.

By bigdawg1988 on 7/6/2010 1:53:01 PM , Rating: 2
This is all ATT's fault! /s

Apples Response
By Gio6518 on 7/5/2010 9:31:22 AM , Rating: 2
Apple has not officially responded to the problems.

Steve Jobs : nope, no, no, never happened

Apple Fanbois : yeah see it never happened its just propaganda to deter people from buying the greatest products in the world

By netetrader33 on 7/5/2010 9:40:18 AM , Rating: 2
Group's spokesman refers to meeting between Palestinian prime minister, Israeli defense minister as 'surrender to American pressure'

Redundancy is redundant
By gmljosea on 7/5/2010 10:46:42 AM , Rating: 2
over the holiday weekend, hundreds, if not thousands of iTunes accounts have been hacked over the holiday weekend

By Daniel8uk on 7/5/2010 9:06:23 AM , Rating: 1
Let me guess Apple got some algorithm wrong and the whole thing unfolded with a tedious inevitability.

Firstly, I hope all of those customers get their money back, secondly I hope Apple actually own up and admit hey had a problem and deal with it correctly, thirdly I hope people realise that a closed propriety system isn't secure or safe, it's just like everything else out there, it's vulnerable and if people don't use common sense, or in this case the company who is responsible for it, the shit will eventually hit the fan.

The way its meant to be played.
By chick0n on 7/5/10, Rating: 0
By icanhascpu on 7/5/10, Rating: 0
"So, I think the same thing of the music industry. They can't say that they're losing money, you know what I'm saying. They just probably don't have the same surplus that they had." -- Wu-Tang Clan founder RZA
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