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Print 113 comment(s) - last by johnsmith9875.. on Feb 4 at 9:30 PM

Windows 8 Pro and Microsoft's pre-installed apps take a big bite out of available storage

This isn't the first time that we've heard about space constraints in Microsoft's Surface tablets, and this likely won't be the last. Back in early November, we briefly touched on the fact that Surface RT has its available storage space seriously encroached by the operating system and pre-installed software. The 32GB version only has 16GB available to the user, while the 64GB version has 45GB available to the user.
 
For comparison, the 32GB and 64GB iPad/iPad mini have roughly 28.6GB and 57.2GB available respectively to the user.
 
We are now hearing reports that the upcoming Surface Pro takes an even bigger hit due to Windows 8 Pro and pre-installed apps from Microsoft. According to Hexus and Softpedia, the 128GB Surface Pro will only have 83GB of space available to the user. So the user is losing 45GB of storage space due to formatting/OS/pre-installed apps.
 
That's a big chunk of space robbed from the user on the 128GB version, but users who are thinking about the 64GB Surface Pro might want to think twice if it too is going to get hit with a 45GB punch to the gut. However, it should be noted that both the Surface RT and Surface Pro do features expandable storage via an SDXC slot; and the Surface Pro also features a USB 3.0 port.
For a refresher, the Surface Pro will be available in the U.S. and Canada starting on February 9 at $899 and $999 for the 64GB and 128GB models respectively.


Updated 1/29/2013 @ 2:16pm EST
The Verge reports that the 64GB Surface Pro will only have 23GB of available free space fresh out of the box. Microsoft also states that you will be able to get some of that free space back by "creating a backup bootable USB and deleting the recovery partition."

Sources: Hexus, Softpedia, Microsoft



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wow
By GulWestfale on 1/29/2013 9:15:46 AM , Rating: 3
nearly a grand for what is essentially a toy. i mean, how many people actually work on their tablets? there may be some, but for most, this is just a toy. for only a little bit more, you could buy an ultraportable (macbook air or ultrabook) and get better specs, a bigger screen and a decent keyboard, while not carrying much more weight.




RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/2013 9:21:23 AM , Rating: 3
Best Buy had a two-day sale on the 11.6" MacBook Air (64GB) for $799 last week. I'd be more inclined to get that 2.3-pound ultraportable than an $899 tablet.


RE: wow
By tng on 1/29/2013 10:04:31 AM , Rating: 3
I got a 13" Toshiba for less than that, 3 pounds, 500GB drive.

For about the SALE price of that MacBook I could have gotten a 128GB SSD on mine.

I just don't see the value in the MacBook line when there are better things out there...


RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 10:17:22 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And the only reason why I even mentioned the 11.6" MBA was its size/weight relative to the Surface Pro (10.6", 2 pounds).

How does a Mac compare to a Windows device? You should really be looking at a ZenBook UX21A if you want a decent comparison.


RE: wow
By GulWestfale on 1/29/2013 10:52:53 AM , Rating: 4
we're not really comparing OSes here; it's more of a usefulness/bang for your buck thing. give me one reason why one should get a $899 10 inch screen with a mediocre keyboard, when you can have a bigger screen, roughly the same size/weight, and a great keyboard for less money.


RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 11:44:00 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
we're not really comparing OSes here; it's more of a usefulness/bang for your buck thing.

Actually we are since the fact that it is a Mac makes it useless for the majority of people. The people who are looking at a Surface Pro are the same people who wouldn't buy a Surface RT because there isn't backwards compatibility with the software they use.

Also even though the ASUS would be a better comparison equivalent to the weight and size of the Macbook Air with more memory and ability to use Windows Applications, it still lacks a touch screen and ability to watch videos without the keyboard in the way. Tablet is definitely a great form factor for watching videos while on an airplane, reading books at night, or for me having it on a music stand to read sheet music from.

Other than when I'm at work, I rarely use a keyboard and if I needed a keyboard to type a book I could pull out a BT one or use a wired one or just use my desktop that I have setup for that purpose.

Does a Surface Pro meet everyone's needs? No
Is a Surface Pro useful for some people? Yes
Is the Surface Pro overpriced? Depends on your needs
Are there other options? Yes
Do those other options meet everyone's needs? No

If you need a tablet, but you also need to use legacy software then a Windows 8 tablet is the only choice. If you need a keyboard and you type a lot then look elsewhere.


RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:26:56 PM , Rating: 2
Uhh, isn't it obvious? You buy Surface so that you can use it like a $500 tablet as well.

Yeah, it's 0.5lbs heavier, and has shorter battery life, but it also has a stylus and faster performance. For many that's a worthwhile tradeoff when you add in the tablet savings.

If you don't care about that, then obviously you're not in its target audience.


RE: wow
By NellyFromMA on 1/30/2013 12:42:24 PM , Rating: 1
Only you are saying its mediocre. Everyone else says its great. Are you going hands-on or citing something else?

I'm interested to hear negative reports on the keyboard because thats the complete opposite of what I've read so far from virtually everywhere for the RT.

It's the same keyboard reportedly.


RE: wow
By CZroe on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 11:56:10 AM , Rating: 3
Yeah the schools near me purchased all Macbooks and Bootcamped all of them, so instead of getting 200 laptops for the students they were only able to get 100 laptops and then had to pay someone to bootcamp them for the schools.

What you can do and what you should do are always competing for our wallets. The Asus Zenbook UX21A actually has more memory than the MacBook Air for less with the difference being .02kgs or .044lbs. However my choice would be the 4.5lb M11x r3 if they were still available and I was looking for a portable gaming rig.

However if I was looking for a tablet that I could strap onto the handlebars and play Diablo III while riding, then I guess I will have to go with the Surface Pro.


RE: wow
By messele on 1/30/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:18:57 PM , Rating: 4
If you think a 3-lb ultrabook is an unfair comparison to a 2.3-lb Macbook Air, then shouldn't you also mention display?

How does 1920x1080 compare to 1366x768?

That's also ignoring the stylus, touchscreen, tablet ability, memory card expansion...


RE: wow
By tng on 1/30/2013 8:31:42 AM , Rating: 1
Display means very little to me. As long as I can read the documents, look at the drawings and use it for my business purposes, that is what I care about. I have never watched a movie on it (it has an HDMI port) and I probably never will.

Resolution for most uses is over-rated, IMO.

The only thing about the display that I wanted was the it was LED backlit, for the battery life.


RE: wow
By tng on 1/29/2013 11:02:14 AM , Rating: 2
It is comparable to the MacBook for the price point. A 13" MacBook would be more...

As to your other points, I have found that the thinner profile of my computer has in no way made my work easier, in fact sometimes it has been a pain adapting to how thin it is. Plugging in USB drives/cables, network cables is not as easy.

Also it is not plastic, it has an aluminum case and is very solid. After seeing the raw aluminum that MacBooks use, they get to a point where they look like crap, I am happy that this is a different finish.

Lastly, since I travel allot, yeah 2.3 pounds sounds good.


RE: wow
By headbox on 1/30/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By tng on 1/30/2013 8:40:37 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
In two years...The Toshiba will be worth 20%
Irrelevant.

I have no need to go through the constant upgrade cycle that some people do. My last laptop ran for 6 years and the new one will probably be in use for as long.

Like most people who use computers for their work and not status symbols at Starbucks, I neither care or worry about selling my old laptop on E-bay so I can go out and get the latest and greatest.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 9:25:01 AM , Rating: 2
Pretty much. I generally sell my PC parts at around two years while I hold onto my Mac stuff for three to five years. Their gear is nicer for much longer since their components (keyboard, trackpad, display) are generally better, and as a result I always get a good price for it. Often times it pays for much of my upgrade. My PC gear, not so much, its mainly to keep stuff out of my closet. That initial investment is like buying a new car, most of the initial investment goes away very quickly.

About the only non-Apple thing I sold near my purchase price was one of my Filco mechanical keyboards, and that's because its a frigging Filco. :)

Unfortunately, even good gear like a comparably priced Lenovo has a hard time holding up its value in comparison, and that's mainly because the quality of their hardware is all over the place when you get to the lower end. With Macs you're going to get a good baseline level of quality with everything they make, even the 11" MBA, thus helping with resale.


RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 10:14:07 AM , Rating: 2
I use my tablet 98% of the time and only use the laptop the other 2% of the time that I can't get something to work on the tablet. If I had a tablet that can do everything, then I won't need to use the laptop. The tablet is a much more convenient device than the laptop.

However because I use the tablet for almost everything I don't purchase games I know that won't work on the tablet. So instead of having new titles like Diabo III, I just make due with what is available. I would say 20% of what I use to do on the laptop I just don't do anymore since I can't do it on the tablet.

Hopefully everything converges and we have tablets that can perform just as good as laptops at the same price point without sacrificing battery life and weight, but we are a long ways away. At this point power users won't be able to move to tablets like the average user can.


RE: wow
By Visual on 1/30/2013 3:53:09 AM , Rating: 2
I'm playing Diablo 3 on my tablet (convertible, HP tm2). Surface Pro will run it smoothly too. But I do have to use the keyboard for it.


RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:21:57 PM , Rating: 2
I think Samsung's Series 9 for $700 (sold out now) was even better, though that did have SB instead of IVB.


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/2013 4:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
Meh, the "I don't use one, so it must be useless" argument is getting old ;)


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/2013 5:42:46 PM , Rating: 1
1. No edit feature, so excuse me typing the wrong brand.

2. It's not cheap or plastic. That Toshiba is brushed aluminum. Other people besides Apple use aluminum you know?

quote:
It was just the first laptop to pop into my head


Yeah, exactly. Admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing it. The MacBookAir should NEVER be the first thing to pop into your head in ANY kind of comparison where productivity comes into it.

Again, the MBA doesn't come out of the box X86 Windows ready, so it doesn't count here. And please, don't act like this is a "puzzling" view or you don't know what I mean. It's 2013, hello?


RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/2013 6:12:25 PM , Rating: 2
Reclaimer, always entertaining, always **THINKING** he's right :-)


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 6:43:17 PM , Rating: 1
I remember someone brought up preferring Chrome to Firefox one time.

MAN reclaimer got mad about that guy's browser preference, holy crap. Called him names, said he was an idiot Chrome fanboy, you'd think the dude banged his mom or something


RE: wow
By Cheesew1z69 on 1/30/2013 8:22:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Reclaimer, always entertaining, always **THINKING** he's right :-)
Like a few others here too...


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 6:11:02 PM , Rating: 1
Best comment I've seen here. I have my foot in pretty much every ecosystem, Android included, and it isn't about "this is the best" or "this is useless", its all about tradeoffs. Everything has positives and negatives. Its all about choosing what you need, but instantly writing off something else without any real knowledge of the platform is ridiculous. I see WAY too many PC (meaning Windows) fanatics writing off OS X and Linux without a second thought, and vice versa.

Having knowledge and proficiency with multiple ecosystems is much better IMHO. You appreciate relative strengths much better and in the end can make an even more informed buying decision for yourself.


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/2013 6:18:10 PM , Rating: 1
Excuse me but I have extensive knowledge on all ecosystems. The simple fact of the matter is that sooner of later, one will win and be the crowned "the best".

Sorry but that sure as shit isn't OS X.

I know everyone thinks they are a special snowflake, but the historic success of Windows and incomprehensibly large user base means it IS the best general purpose desktop OS for 99% of all human beings.

Nice rhetoric the you and Brandon circle jerk have going on here. But facts are facts.


RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/2013 6:48:14 PM , Rating: 1
I don't see it as a "X has 75% marketshare, so Y is a piece of *&%$"

If that were the case, the Toyota Camry would be the greatest damn midsize family sedan on the U.S. market because it's the best-selling model.

But not everyone wants a Camry, and a Camry doesn't fit everyone's needs. Some people might prefer a Mazda 6, or a Nissan Altima, or a VW Passat, or a Ford Fusion. They all will get the job done, and all are credible family sedans, but each just goes their own separate way.

Each will have their niche, and neither is going to run the others off the market, well with maybe the exception of the Mazda 6 at some point if its sales don't improve.


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/2013 6:51:15 PM , Rating: 2
.....

The Camry...

wow, that's just brilliant. Great analogy...

Do me a favor and don't talk to me like I'm 12 goddamn years old? When you want a serious conversation about OS's, I'll be around.

I'm not saying OS X is crap. In a bubble it's fine. In the wild where X86 Windows compatibility rules the day, it's not.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 6:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Excuse me but I have extensive knowledge on all ecosystems.


You've argued that OS X has iOS style application installation restrictions, long before the completely optional App Store even launched. Your lack of technical knowledge is demonstrated on an almost daily basis.

Shenanigans.

Anyway, Windows large userbase is a direct result of it being installed on hardware from as cheap as $200 to as-high-as-you-can-imagine. This is separate from "quality" since its range of use is so broad.

The majority of people using Windows aren't doing content creation, "changing the world", or whatever, they're doing simple tasks like data entry, browsing Facebook, web browsing.

On the flip side, the limiting factor for OS X isn't quality, it is price. If you want good hardware then it'll cost you, and other good PC hardware like a mid or high end Lenovo or a Zenbook Prime will cost you roughly the same. A MBP with a 2880x1800 IPS display and an SSD is about two grand, not bad considering what something like an Elitebook costs.

If we're only accounting for the high end then there's a different picture. Apple makes up for 90% of computers sold over $1000 and 30% of laptop sales in the US. I know that "$1000 Facebook machine" is a popular argument, but in my field (film industry) they are widely used for work. The only reason I started using them eleven years ago (I've used PCs since the late 80s) was for work reasons. My friends at Google are all Mac guys, as are most of my friends in web development (they develop on OS X and run Windows in a VM).

Like it or not, there is something to be said for a Unix based operating system with mainstream application support, especially one that works so well on laptops. I can take or leave Windows or OS X on the desktop, I have no strong preference there, but I think the OS X UI is excellent on laptops. Just because it doesn't make up 90% of the market doesn't mean it is unimportant, and it certainly doesn't make it "not the best".

Its all about tradeoffs, pros and cons. The idea that one platform is "the best" at everything is ludicrous.

That said, I can only conclude that Justin Beiber represents the height of quality for you. After all, he is the most popular singer in the world right now, clearly making him "the best".


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 7:35:43 PM , Rating: 3
Liar: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=23677...

Me:
quote:
How is OS X a walled garden? You can buy and install applications straight from any developer. You can install applications from third party storefronts like Steam. You can easily run other operating systems in a VM. If you're so inclined you get loads of low-level OS control via the command line.


You:
quote:
If everyone was still locked away in the OSX walled garden, I think iMac sales would be quite different.

...

The Mac App Store uses the exact same walled garden platform as the iOS one Takin, and you know this. What are you trying to pull here? Not just anyone can write apps for OSX and sell them, as is the case with Windows.


And yes, I actually bookmarked this because it made me laugh. Sue me.

You talked about app restrictions in support of your theory that OS X is a walled garden, end of story.

Anyone can write and install applications on OS X. You can directly download them from developer websites, install via digital storefronts like Steam, and you can install them from DVD if you're still living in the stone age. You can even download and install via Unix Terminal command line if you're so inclined, as you can with Linux.

It is the opposite of a walled garden. Again, your lack of even the most basic technical knowledge is astounding.


RE: wow
By NellyFromMA on 1/30/2013 12:50:27 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think I know of a top-tier mainstream OEM for PCs that charges the same as a similar quality Apple rendition.

Apple's hardware isn't really what's top notch, it's that there aren't nearly as many internal peripherals for a Mac as there are for the PC. This means in general less testing needs to be done with OS X vs the hardware platform.

That's not a reason to charge more, for PERCEIVED hardware quality.

What you REALLY pay for is build quality. Expect OEMs to officially be on notice in this regard.


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 2:19:44 PM , Rating: 2
There's nothing even different about Mac hardware anymore. It's the same stuff we use. As far as build quality, well I'll stack my new Lian Li case against anything Apple has out there.

Apple is all smoke and mirrors.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 6:22:58 PM , Rating: 1
Lian Li doesn't even make good cases, its aluminum but the construction is flimsy as hell. I had a Lian Li for three years, never again since they continue to have the same fundamental issues. Its all overpriced trash.

Corsair and Silverstone are where its at, less expensive than Lian Li but with much better construction, more intelligent internal layout, and superior ventilation without sacrificing low noise.

Its amazing, you fail at knowing Macs or Linux and you can't even get your PC parts correct...


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 6:42:07 PM , Rating: 1
I'm literally HIGH off the irony here.

Someone who will ALWAYS fall back in any argument to the "expensive and profitable is always more better" talking point, who consistently slams Android for making "low end crap".... Who absolutely exalts Apple for high profit margins under the guise of quality. To now pull a 180 and say this FUD.

quote:
I had a Lian Li for three years


Did this case have a name or model number? What time period was this?

You know I saw that crap you pulled with making a new account and pretending to not be you just to slam me. And now this?

quote:
Its amazing, you fail at knowing Macs or Linux and you can't even get your PC parts correct...


LOL!!!

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5556/lian-lis-pc90-t...

"There is, of course, also the price tag. At $199 the PC-90 is an expensive piece of kit, but at the same time I do find myself having difficulty recommending alternatives. "

Anyway Takin, honestly, fuck off. I can't find anyone else on the planet who's saying Lian Li cases aren't extremely high quality with excellent fit and finish. I've NEVER had a single "issue" such as yours with their cases.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 7:20:55 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Someone who will ALWAYS fall back in any argument to the "expensive and profitable is always more better" talking point


One-dimensional thinking from you as usual.

More expensive does not always equal better, but they usually coincide. For example, the Kindle Paperwhite is a phenomenal device that is only $120, and the vanilla is only $80. Inexpensive but great. On the other side of the spectrum there is something like the iPhone 5 that has some of the fastest hardware with one of the highest quality displays and best LTE battery life on the market, and it is priced up there with the GS3. Both are priced high, and accordingly so IMHO.

There are also expensive items that earn the name "overpriced", things like Lian Li cases or the Razer Blade laptop. Expensive things aren't always well made, that's a different thing. Cheap things are often not well made, that's usually the case as well.

quote:
You know I saw that crap you pulled with making a new account and pretending to not be you just to slam me. And now this?


If someone here made a smurf account it certainly wasn't me. I have better things to do than make extra accounts to post or make votes with. Cute conspiracy theory though.

Back to the case. My Lian Li was the V1100. I thought it was really good at first but over time got annoyed by the standard Lian Li idiosyncrasies as time went on (not as solid as a steel case, prone to rattling if things aren't nailed down tight, poor routing for cables, poor cooling, HD mounting was poorly thought out, etc). By the time I rebuilt in 2009 there were much better alternatives from companies just entering the case market like Corsair and Fractal Design so I happily jumped ship.

I've gotten my hands on the PC-90, and not only does it have many of the same issues as before, it is still overpriced compared to other superior options on the market.

You can get a much better Corsair 600T for less. Spend a few extra bucks and you can get the awesome Corsair 800D or Silverstone Fortress.

Compare the PC 90 with a Corsair that costs $50 less: http://benchmarkreviews.com/images/reviews/cases/P...
http://www.corsair.com/en/media/catalog/product/ca...

Hell, drop $90 and the Corsair is still much better designed: http://www.vortez.net/index.php?ct=news&action=fil...

If you want to go tiny like the PC 90, here's Corsair's $50 200R: http://cdn.overclock.net/9/90/500x1000px-LL-90d3fa...

Superior cable routing, better air flow, much more solid construction, easier to work in, all while costing less.

Speaking of the 200R, I checked on Anandtech's review. The Lian Li here is dead last in almost all thermal and noise tests: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6515/corsair-carbide...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6515/corsair-carbide...

Lian Li was cool back in 2005 but there are way better options these days. Lian Li hasn't bothered trying to keep up while still charging a premium.


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 8:05:35 PM , Rating: 1
....

You know I just used Lian Li as an example? Right? I never said NO other cases were good.

I stand by my statement. There are Lian Li cases that put Apple's to shame. MY ORIGINAL POINT! AESTHETICS!!!!

No more semantics! No more bullshit. No more walls of text!

Seriously you are either super gay for me, or need a life. You just did an entire research project to defeat a point I wasn't even making.


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 8:22:24 PM , Rating: 1
And case noise!? What kind of system builder are you? Who the FUCK actually uses the fans that come with their case?


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/31/2013 5:23:54 PM , Rating: 2
All aluminum isn't as structurally rigid as steel. Doesn't matter if you grommet everything, it'll still rattle more in comparison. Its why aluminum facades combined with steel structure is better.

Angry and stupid


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/31/2013 5:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
Another funny thing, when you came back I all of a sudden started getting downvotes on posts responding to you. Never happened while you were away.

In fact, it is only in posts responding to you.

Why did you make another account to vote on other posts with? Is your life that empty?


RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 8:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
Also you don't seem to understand that, obviously, Lian Li isn't a budget value proposition. Comparing their cases to a freaking $50 one is missing the point.

Lian Li is pretty much the Apple of cases. And the irony of your argument here is amazing.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/31/2013 5:31:57 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Also you don't seem to understand that, obviously, Lian Li isn't a budget value proposition. Comparing their cases to a freaking $50 one is missing the point.

Lian Li is pretty much the Apple of cases. And the irony of your argument here is amazing.


Reading comprehension.

The point is that there are cases that cost as much as the Lian Li that are constructed and perform much better. There are also cheaper cases that do much better in those regards.

And if we're bringing Apple into the equation, the Mac Pro cases are the best system OEM cases out there. Solid construction, excellent air cooling, silent, easy to swap hard drives.

They require custom motherboards since it is designed to bypass the use of SATA cables, which is the only downside to using them for vanilla builds. If PC makers made a motherboard where hard drives plug directly on the PCB then I'd totally get one.

Either way, Lian Li cases are not good compared to other PC or Apple cases. Sorry.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 7:30:48 PM , Rating: 1
Also, way to cherry pick. Full quote from the review:

quote:
The performance absolutely matches the price tag, but the materials and overall build quality don't quite line up. At $149 it would be much easier to recommend.


lel


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 6:36:45 PM , Rating: 1
Build quality is a big thing. Displays, keyboard, trackpad, magsafe, its a really great and functional package. Mid/high end Lenovos (great keyboards) and the Asus Zenbook Prime (great display) are the only other notebooks I'd put in a similar class, and they still fall short with the trackpad. Combine the Mac hardware with an OS that is optimized for limited laptop displays (virtual desktops, five-finger multitouch gestures, superior window management), and there's a lot going for them.

The lack of good build quality in other notebooks is ridiculous. Why are Lenovo and a single Asus line the only other ones that match up? It'd be great if other OEMs stepped it up instead of racing to the bottom. A small part of me believes that Microsoft is betting on touchscreens because they simply gave up on OEMs to put in a good trackpad.

On notice indeed.


RE: wow
By Visual on 1/30/2013 3:55:49 AM , Rating: 3
People buy tablets for the "tablet" bit, duh.
MBA does not have a digitizer or touch screen, so how is it relevant at all?
Why not compare to a portable hair-drier or pocket knife?


RE: wow
By marty096 on 1/29/2013 9:24:15 AM , Rating: 5
These sorts of devices are used widely in the medical field. My office plans on ordering several. The surface is nearly perfect for what we do.


RE: wow
By messele on 1/30/2013 5:27:13 PM , Rating: 1
"These sorts of devices"

Yeah, but no. Tablets that have batteries that last 10 hours are used. Not these overblown calamities that will have you reaching for the power supply half way through your working day.


RE: wow
By retrospooty on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By txDrum on 1/29/2013 9:45:03 AM , Rating: 2
That's a dumb comment. And to the first - point out a single spec that is better on a macbook air. You can't, except maybe battery life. The surface pro has a better screen (MBA uses TN), equivalent CPU, more/same ram? (not less), blah blah blah. I still wish that it was 100$ less than what it was, but thinking this thing isn't worth 500$ would be silly. Think about the pos laptops you get at that price.

Also: that headline is a bit silly. MOST people ordering surface pro will probably uninstall a lot of those apps, and you can gain 15gb alone from removing hibernation and a badly organized pagefile.sys. At least note the fact that windows 8 allows you to free up storage.

It's a Windows 8 install. The one on my desktop takes up ~12GB or something. Please note that it's possible to reduce space. I think it's stupid that you have to do it in the first place, but it's still not nearly as bad as you make it sound.


RE: wow
By retrospooty on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/2013 10:13:00 AM , Rating: 5
I wouldn't expect it to have 128GB free, but I also wouldn't expect a third of the storage space to be taken up by the OS and what's supposed to be Microsoft's "bloatfree" attitude towards pre-installed apps.


RE: wow
By kyuuketsuki on 1/29/2013 11:24:48 AM , Rating: 2
Much of that can be freed up by turning off hibernation and system restore, modifying the way the pagefile is handled, and using an external USB device for the recovery partition (if possible). Granted, these are things MS should do in the first place, but still, a lot of that storage space can be recovered.


RE: wow
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 12:55:15 PM , Rating: 3
Please show me any regular PC user who can do even one of the optimizations you named, forget about all of them. I've seen Lenovo Yoga forums and even with detailed instructions, there were countless users who ended up with bricked devices because they deleted the wrong partition when merging all that dead wasted storage or improperly formatting USB flash for restore and trying to boot up from it.


RE: wow
By ritualm on 1/29/2013 4:29:40 PM , Rating: 2
You're overestimating the ability of the average PC user to correctly set up these deep systemwide changes.


RE: wow
By retrospooty on 1/29/2013 12:18:27 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that is high. Is it alot of 3rd party bloatware, or is it just poor management of pagefile and hibernation files?


RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:44:04 PM , Rating: 2
I really don't think 45GB it's that much different from any win7 notebook, but I could be wrong.

It'll be interesting to see the breakdown if this rumor is true.


RE: wow
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/29/2013 2:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
It's not a rumor, it's straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/29/3929110/surface-...


RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 3:08:45 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, but it's still not that unreasonable compared to typical laptops, and I'm still curious about the breakdown.

It's got a backup partition (which you can remove), a hibernation file and pagefile (side effects of being a full PC with 4GB RAM), and Office trial preinstalled.

That probably accounts for most of the unexpected used space.


RE: wow
By Voldenuit on 1/29/2013 3:18:40 PM , Rating: 2
Don't turn off hibernation on the Surface Pro.

By default, hiberfil.sys is configured to only save 75% of the RAM state to HDD. For the 4 GB Surface Pro, that's only 3 GB.

And you can configure hibernation to take up no more than 50% of your RAM size.

http://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-make-h...

The real problem is how Microsoft handles dlls, old service packs, etc. in Winsxs. If you feel the crunch now with 23 GB free on a clean install, it's only going to get worse with a year's worth of updates and maybe a service pack thrown in.

MS needs to fix winsxs, it's the major eater of windows install directory space in all versions of windows since Vista.

In the meantime, this almost cripples surface pro's potential, and the 64GB Pro is all but useless.


RE: wow
By Da W on 1/29/2013 11:27:23 AM , Rating: 2
Why would anyone get a TABLET then?


RE: wow
By acer905 on 1/29/2013 12:14:31 PM , Rating: 1
RE: wow
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 12:44:55 PM , Rating: 3
Not only that, but 10 inch screen is unusable for legacy UI. Windows 8 simply does not scale screen any better then Windows 7 and Windows 7 sucked in that department.
It does not matter if you have 20/20 vision, the 1080P screen combined with default Windows fonts would mean you would need a magnifying glass to read text in legacy UI and would not be able to hit any button without a digitizer.


RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:53:37 PM , Rating: 1
Well then it's a good thing that it does come with a digitizer!

Seriously though, just because you can't use a 10.6" high res screen doesn't mean everyone can't. It's not that hard to use a mouse on it, and a lot of people want high res in a subnotebook, DPI issues be damned. You probably don't like the 11.6" form factor either.

Fitting a lot of power and information into a small package is the whole raison d'etre for ultralights.


RE: wow
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 4:11:39 PM , Rating: 3
Digitizer is OK to navigate legacy UI (not counting right click actions), it won't make it any easier to read though. And mouse?!? We are still talking about tablet, aren't we? Mouse assumes you have a desk and 30" eye clearance to device set up on the desk. With 10" display you have to have an eagle-like eyesight to comfortably work with Surface Pro in this setup.


RE: wow
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 4:18:21 PM , Rating: 2
11.6" is OK. I've tried Samsung Smart PC with this screen size and though it's not perfect, legacy UI can be dealt with. But, of course, it comes with only 720P resolution screen, not 1080P.
With ultrabooks, I've found that for 1080P displays you need at the very minimum, a 13" screen to work comfortably. Again, we are talking about legacy UI like Lightroom or Eclipse which have many widgets sprayed around the screen. If you just want to browse Chrome or Firefox, fonts are not an issue.


RE: wow
By dgingerich on 1/29/2013 1:46:49 PM , Rating: 2
I could use it at work, with a USB hub, a USB keyboard, and a USB to serial adapter. It would work great for serial access to a raid array or switch in my test lab, to configure, update firmware, and manage failures.

It would also be useful for looking up fixes for AIX and HP-UX on the internet while I'm in the lab while I'm using a serial console to access the machines.

That's what I use my laptop for right now, but it's kind of hard to use due to the size and the touchpad. (I hate touchpads on laptops. I prefer an external mouse. a touchscreen could be more useful.) There's a few possibilities in that thing.


RE: wow
By Samus on 1/29/2013 2:24:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
nearly a grand for what is essentially a toy.


If you want to talk about a toy, why not reference the similarly priced iPad that has no x86 compatibility, no USB port, no decent keyboard and most importantly no memory card slot.

At least this is competitive with similarly priced laptops as far as features, capabilities, size, performance and battery life.


RE: wow
By ArcsinZ on 1/29/2013 3:04:13 PM , Rating: 2
This is actually far more likely to be used as a laptop. Since it's the full version of Win 8 Pro it will connect to domains etc. plus run all your current programs. You can plug it into a bigger monitor and run it just like any other desktop. This is the perfect mobile device, in my opinion.


RE: wow
By crispbp04 on 1/29/2013 3:11:52 PM , Rating: 2
talk to anybody in sales that travels frequently and you will "figure it out". You'll understand what device consolidation means to enterprise business.

I hardly consider a core i5+ssd+1080p screen a "toy"... maybe you have it confused with Surface RT?


RE: wow
By NellyFromMA on 1/30/2013 12:40:17 PM , Rating: 1
LOL, Surface Pro IS an ultrabook. For only a little bit more, you could buy the keyboard here as well. Also, the display is said the be first in its class.

Maybe you're confused? Or only talking about RT? But if its just RT, its not a grand, so I'm not sure you're thinking your statement through..

That said, the 64GB tier is way too small when you take into account the size of the OS. Relying on an sd card can't possibly be viable for Pro when the SSD is too small. I can't imagine installing an application on an SD card... I'm not sure Windows would appreciate having a program installed that is on removal storage when that storage is removed unless I'm missing something there...

I venture to guess you can crack that sucker open and upgrade it, though, but not sure we've heard anything of that nature yet.

Has anyone heard if the SSD used in the Pro is a standard form factor?


30GB behemoth
By rvd2008 on 1/29/2013 10:53:26 AM , Rating: 4
Microsoft is stuck with this 30GB behemoth called Windows. It needs serious de-bloating if they want to remain relevant. Right now it is hard to impossible to back it up, restore, maintain or update. And to make things worse OEMs put bloat on top of the bloat. You buy Windows PC and first thing you need to do is to re-install everything as it is impossible to clean it up.




RE: 30GB behemoth
By kyuuketsuki on 1/29/2013 11:20:03 AM , Rating: 2
How are OEMs going to bloat the Surface Pro?

Microsoft really should turn off hibernation and modify the way the pagefile is handled out-of-the-gate, though, especially on devices with such limited storage space. Also, if they should turn off system restore and provide an external USB device to use for the recovery "partition".


RE: 30GB behemoth
By mcnabney on 1/29/2013 11:37:09 AM , Rating: 2
Yep, having a restore partition on a cramped SSD is grade-A stupid. They should include 24GB USB stick with all of the restore data. User data should be synced to the cloud.


RE: 30GB behemoth
By Mint on 1/29/2013 3:23:53 PM , Rating: 2
If you can delete it, why is it stupid to put it on?

It makes far more sense to keep it there and let the user delete it if he wants. If a user messes up his install (such a n00b probably won't use much space anyway), he can restore it with ease and not have to locate his recovery stick, or if it's lost, send his unit in for repair or wait for MS to send him a recovery stick.


RE: 30GB behemoth
By kmmatney on 1/29/2013 7:41:40 PM , Rating: 2
They should have a built-in ROM for emergancy use, with the ability to hook up to the internet, and then you can recover to factory settings on-line.


RE: 30GB behemoth
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 12:50:22 PM , Rating: 3
If you turn off hibernation on this generation of Surface-Pro like tablets, you would find your tablet nearly dead after night sleep. Not enough battery capacity in combination with Ivy Bridge deep sleep wattage would mean lots of frustrated customers.


RE: 30GB behemoth
By Mint on 1/29/2013 3:15:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It needs serious de-bloating if they want to remain relevant.
LOL talk about overreaction. Did you know that this comes with expandable memory, while the iPad and 11.6" Air do not?

<$20 for a 32GB card to offload the recovery partition, and it costs even less to add incrementally more flash to the SSD. Both of these prices will continue to drop.


RE: 30GB behemoth
By messele on 1/30/13, Rating: 0
STOP THE MISINFORMATION
By Da W on 1/29/2013 1:36:02 PM , Rating: 2
Full version of Windows 8 Pro with media center is 20,7GB.
Then you got mail, contact, news, weather, bing, skydrive and Skype apps bundled for a few 100MB each. Chances ares you would download them anyway.
Only way they can eat away an extra 20GB is if they bundle a 30 days Office 2013 tryout, which is a good idea for a PROFESSIONAL tablet.
Oh yeah, Everyone has a free 7GB of skydrive space for free and an extra 20GB with an office 2013 subcription.
And it as an USB 3.0 port. I got a 64 GB usb 3.0 key drive for 20 bucks on newegg.
Chances are, i will store my music/video/pictures/personnal documents on my home desktop anyway.




RE: STOP THE MISINFORMATION
By DukeN on 1/29/2013 2:00:54 PM , Rating: 2
Don't waste your breath/energy.

iDailyTech has basically swayed heavily in favor of Apple.


RE: STOP THE MISINFORMATION
By xti on 1/30/2013 12:27:08 AM , Rating: 1
DT is the last website that will ever be pro Apple...dunno wtf u have been reading the last year+


RE: STOP THE MISINFORMATION
By DaveLessnau on 1/29/2013 2:06:44 PM , Rating: 2
Adding to the above, I'd like to say that my wife and I have ALL of our personal data backed up on SpiderOak (secure cloud storage). For the TWO of us, that totals about 16.5 GB. So, for normal people, the amount of user-accessible storage on these devices is plenty.

But, even ignoring that, it's time to move into the century of the fruit-bat (or whatever it is). Windows 8 (and Office 2013) is DESIGNED to work with the cloud. As "Da W" noted, everyone gets 7 GB of free storage on Skydrive (which does NOT store your information in encrypted form, so watch out for that) and an Office 2013 subscription gets you an additional 20 GB. There are plenty of other free cloud storage providers to look at, too. The 100 GB of secure storage we have with SpiderOak lists at $100/yr (or $10/month). So, it's fully feasible to either keep everything in the cloud or just keep your currently active stuff local and archive everything else to the cloud.

Yes, there are exceptions. but, for the vast majority of people, the available storage on these machines is fine.


RE: STOP THE MISINFORMATION
By ritualm on 1/29/2013 4:34:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Adding to the above, I'd like to say that my wife and I have ALL of our personal data backed up on SpiderOak (secure cloud storage).

That's not a very secure way of storing your personal data.


RE: STOP THE MISINFORMATION
By GoodBytes on 1/29/2013 5:09:25 PM , Rating: 2
People are idiots, let them be.
It's all Apple and Android fanatic finding ANYTHING, to bash on Microsoft, and all ignoring the fact that you can re-install Windows 8 on the go, and recover it too. You don't need a PC. If it wasn't storage, they'll freak out on something else, like: "OMG! Surface sucks! You can only use the headphone jack 50 000 times before breakage! LOL it's sucks! Buy Apple/Android!". Or no better, "Surface Pro says that there is 4GB of RAM, but less than that is in use, In fact *only* ~3GB!!! Shocking news!"

And I like how they compare it to the MacBook Air and how its a better buy, which is more expensive, especially after the price of Windows onto it, and its not even a tablet to even starts with, let alone have digitize pen support.

Anyway.


Who Cares?
By Arsynic on 1/29/2013 11:18:01 AM , Rating: 3
This is for the enterprise. If there are any large work-related files, they should be stored on network storage anyways. Hard drive size is something I don't care about on a work machine. 80 GB is more than enough for most people's applications and My Docs.




RE: Who Cares?
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 1:00:37 PM , Rating: 3
This is not for Enterprise. Enterprise exclusively uses legacy applications and legacy UI and good luck doing that on 10" 1080P screen even with Windows 8 scaling at max 150%.


RE: Who Cares?
By Arsynic on 1/29/2013 3:24:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is not for Enterprise. Enterprise exclusively uses legacy applications and legacy UI and good luck doing that on 10" 1080P screen even with Windows 8 scaling at max 150%.


This is for the enterprise for users that need ultra portable machines. These people include road-warrior executives, sales staff, field workers and medical staff who don't have to worry about legacy software applications.

Up to this point, these people were using iOS and Android tablets paired with presentation apps or slow, clunky netbooks. Surface Pro is aimed at these people.


RE: Who Cares?
By Netscorer on 1/29/2013 4:04:57 PM , Rating: 2
I've been to countless presentations and yet to see a single executive or salesrep who would use iPad for presentation. Mac pro - sure, Mac Air - sometimes (and carrying a whole bag of adapters along with it), Windows laptop - bunch of times. iPad is fleshed in meetings but always as personal device, never as something to share with group of people.


Not good enough as a PC
By tayb on 1/29/2013 9:41:04 AM , Rating: 3
This machine is not good enough to replace my work laptop and if it can't do that it has zero value for me. The exciting part about Windows 8 was the idea that I could replace my work laptop and my iPad with a single device. So far so... nothing.

The Lenovo Helix looks as if it might be that device but it's extremely expensive.

Surface is a major letdown for me.




RE: Not good enough as a PC
By Nortel on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: Not good enough as a PC
By nikon133 on 1/29/2013 3:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
Sandisk has SDXC with 45MB/s read/write. That wouldn't be bad at all, considering that USB2.0 HDDs hardly reach over 30MB/s in real life scenarios... unfortunately both 64 and 128GB cards are bitterly pricey at the moment... but potential is there.


RE: Not good enough as a PC
By ritualm on 1/29/2013 4:40:46 PM , Rating: 2
Up to 45MB/s sequential read/write for cameras and camcorders. Laptops and tablets are rarely compatible with the UHS-1 standard, so you're stuck with something closer to 10MB/s. My 64GB microSDXC cards do only 11MB/s just writing data to the card.

USB 2.0 HDDs are still faster than SD card storage.


RE: Not good enough as a PC
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 6:14:31 PM , Rating: 2
It might be a few years ahead of its time. Internal components will eventually catch up with the potential of the device. Haswell is a major first step. The UI will hopefully be addressed as well.


Upgradable?
By AstroCreep on 1/29/2013 10:55:58 AM , Rating: 2
One thing I haven't read anywhere is whether these are upgradable at all or not. Specifically, the memory or the storage. 4GB RAM is fine for a while, but I'd prefer 8GB and I have a 120GB 2.5" Sata2 SSD hanging out on my desk that I'm not using.

Anyone know?




RE: Upgradable?
By kyuuketsuki on 1/29/2013 11:21:03 AM , Rating: 3
I haven't seen it explicitly stated, but it's pretty safe to assume the RAM is soldered on and not upgradeable.


RE: Upgradable?
By ritualm on 1/29/2013 11:49:30 PM , Rating: 2
Not until someone or iFixit disassembles their new Surface Pro. However, given the form factor being used, you can bet on the RAM being soldered to the logic board, while the storage is an uncommon standard i.e. mSATA / non-standard.


What did you expect...
By kmmatney on 1/30/2013 7:49:52 PM , Rating: 3
It runs the same windows that you'd run on your laptop, doesn't it? Who would buy a laptop with a 64GB hard drive, running windows 8? They shouldn't even sell that model.




By HackSacken on 1/29/2013 2:55:51 PM , Rating: 2
Or up the physical specs if you are going to advertise it. What I mean is, load it with a larger HDD that leaves about 64GB of free space. For example, slap in a 80GB SSD, load it with the OS, now advertise 64GB version.

While I know the wording doesn't say a usable 64GB, it's misleading, especially to the average consumer.




!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By KateHiggs22 on 2/1/2013 3:01:45 PM , Rating: 2
If you think Sharon`s story is really great..., last munth my son basically also easily made $9242 putting in a twelve hour week in their apartment and they're friend's sister-in-law`s neighbour was doing this for eight months and errned over $9242 in there spare time On their laptop. apply the guidelines on this page Fox76.comCHECK IT OUT




Wow, what a deal!!!
By lexluthermiester on 2/1/2013 10:16:54 PM , Rating: 2
So I buy a 64GB Tablet but only get 23GB usable space out of it? For $900? Eh? Come again?

Let's do the math...

23GB Windows Tablet with crap UI and lackluster software support; $900

VS

64GB Asus Android Tablet with awesome UI and excellent software support; $550

VS

64GB iPad Tablet with very good UI and very good software support; $700

Let me think..... Hmmmmm..... Still thinking....

The Retina display is tempting, but I think the best choice is the one where I get Asus awesome build quality and best bang for buck ratio.

How is buying a Surface a smart purchase? Perhaps I'm slow, but I just don't see the value or wisdom with that choice. I love android, but at least with the iPad you get a greatly better screen. Surface doesn't stand a chance.

Now, if it were based on an x86/x64 CPU and we could put Windows 7 on it, that would change the game. But it isn't and we can't.

Surface = over-priced crap. Microsoft, pull your head out of your bum and produce something usefully appealing and has good value. Surface is neither.




Know the facts....
By GotThumbs on 2/4/2013 5:49:05 PM , Rating: 2
Anyone whose has researched SSD's already knows that a 128 Gig SSD doesn't have 128 gig's of usable space to begin with. There is a certain amount that is reserved for use by the controller. An average of 5-7% is typically used I believe, but it can variy by manufacturer and overall drives size. Also there is the issue of the OS formatted drive size that most twits still can't grasp. So a 250 Gigabyte drive will only yield 232 Gigabytes of available storage space within the OS.

SSD info: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2829

People would be less emotional about this simple fact if they were better informed by the writer.

Talk about being easily manipulated. That what many readers here have been. Educate yourselves and you will be less likely to be manipulated as a tool.




By GotThumbs on 2/4/2013 6:00:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So the user is losing 45GB of storage space due to formatting/OS/pre-installed apps


Brandon Hill needs to learn more about SSD's.

He totally overlooked the amount of Nand that is reserved for use by the SSD controller. Typically 5-7% I believe. It depends on the type of Nand and the drive brand.




Memory slot is no fix
By johnsmith9875 on 2/4/2013 9:30:53 PM , Rating: 2
Every device I've owned whatever it was seemed to treat a flash memory expansion slot as its own thing. I suspect Surface does too. Perhaps it it had a dedicated memory slot that was pointed straight to the CPU's memory map then expansion would be a snap.




Hardly Normal
By mike66 on 1/29/2013 3:32:40 PM , Rating: 1
I thought I would check out the surface at my local Harvey Norman retail store, I use them all the time as my hardware tester, their demo models take a beating from the public. The keyboard seems flimsy and the hardly normal test shows it, although the display unit has only been there a matter of weeks the keyboard looks dirty and the plastic is starting to peel of the the aliminium. This device will not last long.




technical support?
By Nortel on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
!!!!!!
By LenaSmithe22 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
"If you look at the last five years, if you look at what major innovations have occurred in computing technology, every single one of them came from AMD. Not a single innovation came from Intel." -- AMD CEO Hector Ruiz in 2007

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