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Emails from Microsoft managers show they feared Mac comparisons even before Vista launched

Microsoft is definitely feeling the heat as Apple gains momentum in the marketplace and sales of Mac systems climb to ever-higher levels. Apple's series of commercials with the "Hi I'm a Mac" introduction are familiar to most consumers and bothered Microsoft enough for it to start its own ad campaign to show most of the accusations in the Mac ads are stereotypes.

Emails have surfaced that were unsealed during the class action suit against Microsoft over allegedly misleading consumers with its Vista Capable marketing program. The email is from a time before Vista was on the street and Microsoft was advertising the coming Vista OS and trying to keep from hurting sales of Windows XP machines at the same time.

Computerworld reports that one of the interesting emails started with a column written by Walter Mossberg of The Wall Street Journal titled “What PC to Buy if You Are Planning On a Vista Upgrade”. What raised the ire of some at Microsoft weren’t the hardware choices Mossberg made; rather it was one paragraph from the column that said, "You won't have to worry about Vista if you buy one of Apple Computer's Macintosh computers, which don't run Windows. Every mainstream consumer doing typical tasks should consider the Mac. Its operating system, called Tiger is better and more secure than Windows XP, and already contains most of the key features promised for Vista."

The paragraph caught the attention of Microsoft's Padmanand Warrier, a developer in the Windows group, and prompted him to send an email to other managers within the Windows group. Warrier added in the email quoting Mossberg, "A premium experience as defined by Walt = Apple…"

One of the recipients that the email was sent to was Richard Russell, a development manager within Microsoft who wrote back, "My takeaway from Walt's article is that we have failed to communicate Vista's value. [Windows has the ability to] run on a very wide-ranging set of systems from the minimally capable to the incredibly capable. Apple doesn't do that."

The email reply also touches on the source of the class action suit, the Vista Ready program. Russell said, "Vista Ready means that a PC will run Vista well -- it doesn't mean the users will get a 'premium' experience -- it never has meant that. There was some thinking and effort put into having a higher-tier Vista Ready logo, but this didn't fly with the OEMs. Also, if we spec Vista Ready too high, we will increase the already erroneous and popular perception that Vista is a pig with huge hardware requirements."

Russell spelled it out clearer when he wrote, "I think we have made a mistake in equating 'running Vista well' with a 'premium experience'. E.g., we haven't been successful in sending a 'good, better, best' message. Vista Ready == 'better.'"

The email exchange is among the reams of messages unsealed recently by U.S. district Court Judge Marsha Pechman as part of the class action proceedings.

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By Bateluer on 11/20/2008 1:03:02 PM , Rating: 5
Honestly, if you a bought a 299 USD PC, did you really expect it to run anything well? MS was very up front with what those programs meant and didn't attempt to hide it from anyone. As I recall, they have very clear charts on their website with what you could do with each and what each meant.

A chimp could have understood it. Microsoft should not sued for user's stupidity.




By Frank M on 11/20/2008 1:28:32 PM , Rating: 1
I disagree. If a computer was incapable of running Vista, it shouldn't have been listed as being "Vista capable." If I can't run your new on my $399 machine, then you should make sure that I can purchase an OS that will run on it.


By tdawg on 11/20/2008 2:08:30 PM , Rating: 5
Vista Capable = Vista Basic (no Aero).
Vista Premium Ready = Vista Home Premium / Ultimate (all the trimmings).

This was posted everywhere I looked before Vista came out. Microsoft's Vista website leading up to the launch opened with this chart, if I remember correctly.

Microsoft was up front with what the sticker meant and made it easy to know what was required to run the features I wanted.


By Bruneauinfo on 11/20/2008 2:33:07 PM , Rating: 5
well, i would at least expect them to ask a salesperson. if the sales person doesn't know - that's the retailer's fault. retailer's should know what they are selling. if Average Joe bought it without asking anyone for advice he is foolish, and purchasing at his own risk.


By rudolphna on 11/20/2008 3:00:25 PM , Rating: 5
thats not what people care about. what they do is walk in, say I want a computer to do email, word processing and internet. They sales rep shows them one, they buy it, end of discussion. Usually. Most people know little to nothing about computers. Some of them dont even know the difference between an operating system and a program.


By tdawg on 11/20/2008 3:18:24 PM , Rating: 2
True, but it is the responsibility of the consumer to understand what they're buying. As long as the manufacturer puts it out there for them to access (this information was available on displays in stores and on OEM websites, not just Microsoft's Vista page), they've done their part.


By zerocool84 on 11/20/2008 4:17:46 PM , Rating: 5
But if you haven't noticed, no one takes responsibility for themselves any more. It's always someone else's fault. If I'm spending my money, I'm going to make sure I know everything about what I'm buying but also, we put trust in these experts at the retailers to tell us what things are to teach people so they should be at fault, not Microsoft.


By JAB on 11/20/2008 11:35:40 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with that is most people havent needed to really do reasearch before. Upgrade the computer and it would be faster easer to use and more stable than the last time. There just wasnt any need to agonise over what most people consider a no braner. There were experienced people at microsoft that were confused by the naming.
Few who did the reasearch would have boughtsome of those computer after all for about the same price you could get a compatable chipset that would work right. The stickers encouraged people to make bad choices. Blaming the consumer for taking the sticker on the case at fase value is not going to increase consumer confidence in your product end of story.

I know a ton of people that are not stupid they make 6 figures but 'dont have time to mess with something that doesnt work right'.

I just cant understand this attitude. I tried explaining what computer to get and even wrote out what to get and no one did. The standard answer was 'can you just install XP that is too confusing' or 'I am just going to get a Apple'.


By Silverel on 11/23/2008 12:12:16 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
we put trust in these experts at the retailers


Experts at retailers, lol. That's like neo-con nazis at a black pride rally, or a republican president at the lead of a peaceful country.

My point, there's too many employees at retailers that just do their job day-to-day, or try to upsell the inhouse brands regardless of performance. You can't rely on them being experts OR getting you what you need.


By theapparition on 11/20/2008 3:38:18 PM , Rating: 2
And for those users.......they shouldn't be upgrading OS's either.


By omnicronx on 11/21/2008 12:10:40 PM , Rating: 2
Whose fault is that? Buying a computer is no different then buying pretty much any product, if you do not research it properly you have a chance of getting ripped off. If I were to buy a car and the salesman ripped me off, is it the manufacturers fault?


By mrEvil on 11/21/2008 4:00:55 PM , Rating: 2
You were right on until your last sentence. An OS is a program.

MS really messed up Vista by releasing 3 million different flavors to the retail chains and then having ineffective marketing gurus sitting there not telling people what they need. I will not even get into the other points people have mentioned with hardware requirements (nightmare).

How many different flavors of XP were there? Home and Professional. You can say Media Center, but that was not initially rolled out. Could you run either version on the same hardware (99.9% of the time) the answer is yes. Microsoft did not learn that simple is better. Maybe they will take that with them with V7.


By noirsoft on 11/22/2008 8:50:49 PM , Rating: 2
Again, not true. You can argue about what was or wasn't released to the sales channel, but the simple truth is that there is only one more version of Vista than there was with XP, and that is to fill a feature spec that XP didn't have. Other than that, there is a 1:1 correspondence between XP and VIsta versions.

XP Home -- Home Basic
XP Media Center -- Home Premium
XP Pro -- Vista Pro
None -- Vista Ultimate (combines Pro and Media center, whcich was not available with XP)

The only version added to Vista was one that people wanted. Stop saying they had "too many" versions. It's not any more than there were with XP. And now that all new PCs (even things like the Netbooks) can run Home Premium, there's almost no need for Home Basic.


By MikeMurphy on 11/28/2008 4:22:42 PM , Rating: 2
You're forgetting the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of each.


By nangryo on 11/20/2008 9:15:48 PM , Rating: 2
To be honest, as a person who involved a lot's of computer sales, it was rarely the buyer could distinguish between capable or premium ready sticker, even less, to ask about the difference between it. The majority of the buyer even don't know what operating system was. What they know is they could do some work with it.

So, your comment is a moot point


By Oregonian2 on 11/20/2008 10:04:04 PM , Rating: 3
You're saying that the average joe won't understand that a $2000 computer will be more capable than a $500 one? Too hard to understand? Understanding of video cards and other issues I don't believe to be necessary.


By Bateluer on 11/20/2008 3:02:55 PM , Rating: 4
Wish I could edit my DT posts. The title on the thread should read 'Only a fool would misunderstand . . .' It was early for me.

It was summed up well in the following posts. As a consumer looking to buy a product, you should be doing some research into the product. Most younger people will instinctively hit the Internet for their research, and the Capable vs Premium Ready information was plastered all over the web in late 2006 and most of 2007. Any retail sales person selling PCs should have known this information and relayed it to the consumer.

It is NOT Microsoft's fault that people are retarded. If you're going to dislike Microsoft, dislike them for a real reason, like the DRM they push with their Zunes, Vista, and other products.


By Donkeyshins on 11/20/2008 6:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is NOT Microsoft's fault that people are retarded. If you're going to dislike Microsoft, dislike them for a real reason, like the DRM they push with their Zunes, Vista, and other products.


As opposed to the DRM pushed by Apple with their iPods, OS-X (all flavors to current) and AppleTV?

DRM (as I'm assuming you are referring to music + movies + TV) isn't the fault of the software companies - it's the fault of MPAA and RIAA.


By DeepBlue1975 on 11/21/2008 8:11:33 AM , Rating: 2
My wife got a laptop in 2007, which came with 512mb RAM, Vista home Basic (no aero, no nothing), and, of course, the sticker "Vista capable"...

It was utterly slow. A couple of months later we upgraded the thing to 2gbs of RAM and it really got awaken and started feeling like "a premium experience".

But, believe me, there's no premium experience on running ANY flavor of Vista with less than 1gb of RAM.

If I were MicroSoft, I would have never approved the "Vista Ready" logo for anything with less than 1gb of RAM. It is bad publicity among the users (most of them I guess) who can't spot the difference between "minimum hardware requirements" and "recommended requirements".

RAM was already cheap enough them to say something like "you've gotta be kidding me, with RAM prices so low you gonna stick with 512mb of RAM???"


By jonmcc33 on 11/21/2008 9:27:23 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. My father got a HP with 1GB RAM and Windows Vista. He complained about it all the time. I shipped him another 1GB RAM, after he installed that he loves Windows Vista.

It really does function best with 2GB RAM or more.

Even older systems (Pentium 4, Athlon XP) will run Vista perfectly as long as you have 2GB RAM.


By DeepBlue1975 on 11/21/2008 2:17:38 PM , Rating: 2
Yes!

My wife's laptop had a single core celeron CPU, and it ran really well as soon as it got 2gbs.

Now she has a dual core machine with 2gbs of ram and Vista home premium instead of basic... and guess what? Except for multitasking, in general usage the machine feels the same as the one before when running Vista.

In my home machine I have 4gbs and vista x64 on a quad core, runs really great, better than XP ever had on any setup of mine...

But then again, on my actual PC I had 6gbs installed for a brief period, and decided to ditch de extra 2gbs because it meant no tangible performance gain for me, except on very rare ocassions.

Software vendors have to start ditching the "minimum hardware requirements", at least in terms of installed RAM, which is a dirt cheap component in these days.


By inighthawki on 11/20/2008 2:11:22 PM , Rating: 4
Capable is one thing. Loading a bunch of crap software, bloating it down, getting spyware then complaining cause its slow, is another. Vista runs almost flawlessly out of the box for even the lower end PCs I've seen it used on. Like every version of windows, it only slows down once the user bogs it down with junk.


By StevoLincolnite on 11/20/2008 9:59:54 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, heck Vista ran fine a friends Pentium 4 Willamette 1.8ghz, 512mb of ram and a Geforce 4 MX440, It may not have been stupidly fast and the boot times were a little length, but the system was "fine" for Email, Web Browsing, Writing Letters, And Playing those cheap Popcap games like bejeweled, and most of the "Vista Ready" systems eclipse that machine in more ways than one, the machine was "ready" and was "running" Vista. - However you install a Virus Scanner/Ad-aware Scanner and leave all the default Windows Services running that aren't needed to be running then yes the performance is less then stellar. - But You can get some of that performance back by using Tend Micro's House Call scanner so you don't need a Virus Scanner Installed, coupled with smart Internet Browsing you should have minimal issues in that area.

Seriously as soon I Installed Vista, I disabled Hibernation, System Restore, Wireless Zero Configuration, Remote Access, And a crap-load of other useless services, the machine was then fine for it's intended purposes despite only having 512mb of memory, once everything was installed I made a Ghost Image, so if something goes wrong I can wipe the system and restore the machine quickly without any fuss.


By nitrous9200 on 11/20/2008 10:46:26 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly, this is Vista's "problem", which isn't even a fault of Vista itself. I cringed when I unboxed a new laptop for a customer with an old version of Norton Internet Security on it...I wonder how they (Acer in this case) could sell a computer this slow. Removing that junk as well as their other crap and boosting the ram to 4GB made it fly. Side note, if you're looking for internet security that won't slow your computer down, Norton Internet Security 2009 is really lightweight and has the best protection from what I've experienced.


By DjiSaSie on 11/21/2008 4:20:53 AM , Rating: 2
Vista Capable or Vista Premium thing is just a marketing trick to cover all range of users, so they don't need to worry about their PC can't run Vista.

But in reality, when I heard somebody said "Wow, Vista has arrived man, it has an awesome display called Aero what a stunning effect", Interested then I go to a computer shop and see that Vista Capable Logo in front of a PC with $299 price tag. Bought it and what I found at home is feeling so pissed, This is just XP with some new non Aero theme. That capable thing should be named Vista Lite Capable.

Another misleading marketing trick, I bought an INTEL D945GCLF featuring Atom Processor with Hyper Threading Technology, Intel also advertised it as Vista Premium Ready, yes this one can run Vista with all effects switch ON, however It's slow as hell even for a basic task.
What I've Learned is don't trust in any marketing slogan, before you know exactly what is those thing being advertised.
Because they spend so much cost in R&D and will do "anything" to attract people to buy.

Sorry for my bad English...


By SlyNine on 11/21/2008 1:33:43 PM , Rating: 2
So when you hear Chevy makes a good car, Do you go out and buy the cheapest model you can find and then complain about it.

Dude you spent 300$ on a PC, and expected gold. Of course you were dissopointed. WTH did you honestly expect.


By DjiSaSie on 11/21/2008 9:24:48 PM , Rating: 2
Not only me, but most of Computer illiterate people go and ask them, They even don't know what the difference between "Vista Capable" and "Vista Premium" thing. All they know is Vista has a newer interface called Aero, since that's the first feature people talked about before it launch.
So when somebody talk about Vista, The Cool Aero interface will be the first thing to comes in their mind.


By DjiSaSie on 11/21/2008 10:02:57 PM , Rating: 2
Since I often visiting tech site, I'm no longer Computer illiterate person I think :), but most people won't bother. So I think MS have to change their marketing way, if they advertised Vista has Aero, then Aero is a must.
If Aero is an option, they should mention it in a specific way, ex. "Vista Lite capable". Everyone know "Lite" has less feature and they won't complaint.


By SlyNine on 11/22/2008 12:45:44 PM , Rating: 2
Its not that I dissagree that they should change their marketing.

But I could say that for every company out there making a profit. Consumers should be aware , If nothing else. That companies lie like dogs when it comes to taking you're money. But at least MS made the facts avaliable.


By Targon on 11/21/2008 8:08:22 AM , Rating: 2
Look at the word capable for the clue. It means it can run Vista, and does NOT indicate how well it will run. This is a very similar situation to when Windows XP came out and we saw MANY cheap computers being sold with 128MB of memory and Windows XP Home on it.

Ok, XP came out a while back, so those who were not paying attention in those days may not remember it. Many computers sold by Dell, HP, Gateway, and others back then were selling computers with only 128MB of RAM back then. The result was that these same machines that ran Windows 98 or ME well would run XP poorly. People back then complained about the increased requirements of XP, and you even had some people running Windows 2000 as a result.

So, here we are, looking at the launch of Vista, and the same thing has happened. People complaining that the 5 year old computer that ran XP acceptably can't handle Vista. They had 256MB of RAM with no antivirus, so were shocked that Vista ran slowly.

It is a given that if you add features, you will increase the memory footprint of the OS, meaning you need more memory to make the machine run at a similar level. People really should be blaming Intel for their part in this, where their graphics products do not compete well.


By Rev1 on 11/22/2008 9:41:06 AM , Rating: 2
Well i hate to put it this way but any wise consumer will do their homework at least somewhat before making a purchase. Go to a friends house who has a PC and browse around for info you will find a wealth of it. Then you will more informed about your purchase. This is also wise to do if you barely know anything about the product you want to purchase. I only say this because of trial and error, i learned the hard way to research before i buy.


By rbfowler9lfc on 11/20/2008 7:47:51 PM , Rating: 5
Pick up $299 worth of Apple hardware, and lets see if it's able to run MacOS correctly.

It's at best unfair to compare a $300 h/w with another that costs $1.5k.

Get a $1.5k PC and you'll have Vista screaming, much like any other app, as long as you give it h/w good enough.


By dragonbif on 11/20/2008 8:27:46 PM , Rating: 5
To true, Apple computers cost more and upgrades cost even more. A PC costs less and there are lots of upgrades to choose from. You can also choose to buy a PC from HP, Dell, Gateway and so on. You buy an Apple from... Apple. I would like to see Apple make an OS that would work with any pice of hardware out there, I wonder what problems they would have?

Today;
$299 Apple = would suck
$299 Windows = so so 1Gb of memory

$599 Apple = Can you even find one????
$599 Windows = hay it works and it has 4Gb of DDR2 800

$999 Apple = Hay found one and I bet it works
$999 Windows = We be playing Crysis


By SlyNine on 11/21/2008 1:30:51 PM , Rating: 2
Just because YOU dont like Crysis. Doesnt mean others dont, the game sold over 1 million, Id say thats pretty dam reputable. Personaly, I loved the game.


By Aloonatic on 11/21/2008 5:11:41 AM , Rating: 2
Whilst I generally agree with you, seeing as we are (DT readers) at least remotely interested in computing, hardware and the requirements that are made on them by certain pieces of software and operating systems....

...If a DT reader was to spend that much and expect Vista to run flawlessly then yes, they are stupid.

The point is, the sticker systems and cheap PCs/Laptops are not aimed at people like us. It is aimed at people who do not have either the time or inclination to look into technical specifications and working out what product/chip code means what.

Even if they were to look into the specs etc, the numbering and naming conventions used by motherboard manufactures, chip makers, Intel, AMD and Nvidia are less than clear and that's before you get into the Mhz/GHz, (G)DDR2/3/5, SSE, MMX etc etc etc...

You an I may be able to decipher these things, but to expect everyone to be able to is unreasonable, else why bother with the sticker systems in the first place?

Like it or not, Microsoft and PC manufacturers want the mass market, granny to grandchild, teen gamer to high end business user markets and as such they need to make sure that they do not miss lead or miss sell their products.

I don't know much Apple and OS X and all that, but it seems that their equipment is pretty pricey, so am I to assume that it is much faster and more capable, if cost is all that matters?

If MS wants the casual computer, a couple of laptops and a desk top or 2 in every home, user then they need to make sure that they get it right.

As it is, a few people I know have moved over to Apple, and people who have had a bad experience through this sticker problem or being miss sold something are going to be less likely to trust Microsoft (who's logos are all over these machines) and the stores that miss sold them equipment.

If the argument is that they should expect to spend more then they may just do that and wander into the Apple store, and then spend more there.


Free Windows 7 for Vista Ultimate Buyers
By Mitch101 on 11/20/2008 12:54:15 PM , Rating: 2
I really like my Vista Ultimate however they should give Vista Ultimate buyers a free upgrade to Windows 7.

Why? Because of all the additional content promised for people who purchased Ultimate that doesn't exist.

Thats my only gripe with Vista.




RE: Free Windows 7 for Vista Ultimate Buyers
By TomZ on 11/20/2008 1:18:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why? Because of all the additional content promised for people who purchased Ultimate that doesn't exist.

I agree - the additional functionality "extras" haven't really measured up to much value, IMO.


RE: Free Windows 7 for Vista Ultimate Buyers
By WayneG on 11/21/2008 8:57:28 AM , Rating: 2
If I'm honest I'm happy enough to have all the other features that Ultimate has over the lower versions, it's all kept behind the surface though... and Poker is a good enough reason for me haha.


By PhoenixKnight on 11/23/2008 4:40:21 PM , Rating: 2
I'm upset that my copy of Vista Business didn't come with Freecell, Solitaire, Minesweeper, or any other games for that matter.


Good ol' Walt
By MonkeyPaw on 11/20/2008 1:08:55 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
...it was one paragraph from the column that said, "You won't have to worry about Vista if you buy one of Apple Computer's Macintosh computers, which don't run Windows. Every mainstream consumer doing typical tasks should consider the Mac. Its operating system, called Tiger is better and more secure than Windows XP, and already contains most of the key features promised for Vista."


Well, it didn't take too much digging to see what Walt likes if you just read his review of an Apple product:
http://walt.allthingsd.com/
quote:
My bottom line on the new MacBook Pro is that it still provides a satisfying upgrade for power users willing to spend the money to move up from the MacBook or from a less powerful, or similarly powerful, Windows machine running the inferior Vista or XP operating systems.


"Inferior" is clearly a subjective opinion, and Wally's comment isn't even necessary for the purpose of his "review" (besides, I can't think of a better definition of "inferior" than Apple's Flash support). I think MS's biggest mistake was wasting Exchange Server resources on his journalism. Then again, there's more to computing than iTunes, emails, and Safari, but don't tell Wally that one.




RE: Good ol' Walt
By foolsgambit11 on 11/20/2008 2:30:35 PM , Rating: 2
And the funniest thing about Walt's review is that he said Apples "don't run Windows." It was true when he said it, but it was no true by the time Vista shipped. Apple had already announced they were moving to x86. In an article about what computer people should buy to be ready for the future, shouldn't he have recommended people intent on buying a Mac wait until Intel Macs were on the market?


RE: Good ol' Walt
By PhoenixKnight on 11/23/2008 4:37:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In an article about what computer people should buy to be ready for the future, shouldn't he have recommended people intent on buying a Mac wait until Intel Macs were on the market?


Yes, but that would have required him to have even a small amount of critical thinking ability or a tiny bit of knowledge on the subject about which he writes.


Lessons Learned?
By arazok on 11/20/2008 12:44:21 PM , Rating: 5
I’m looking forward to Microsoft’s Windows 7 Stickers:

“Runs Like Sh*t, don’t be surprised, it’s only a $299 computer”

“Gets er Done”

And “This is the computer you should buy you cheap bastard”




RE: Lessons Learned?
By SuperFly03 on 11/20/08, Rating: -1
RE: Lessons Learned?
By Bruneauinfo on 11/20/2008 2:37:01 PM , Rating: 3
i believe that was sarcasm folks.


Apple taking over the world
By NubWobble on 11/21/2008 3:53:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Microsoft is definitely feeling the heat as Apple gains momentum in the marketplace and sales of Mac systems climb to ever-higher levels.


LMAO 3% market share is scary, not in the least because Apple are shooting themselves in the foot by preventing Mac OS from being sold seperately. Well done to Apple, the exact same stupidity that made them bow to Microsoft and Intel will, eventually, make them grovel again. But it's fun so I don't really care.

The fanaticism with which Apple is elevated to god status among the brainwashed Apple crowd is funny.




RE: Apple taking over the world
By robinthakur on 11/21/2008 8:15:41 AM , Rating: 2
To put it in terms you can rstand, Apple's success comes because they sell the whole package, basically the computer is an expensive appliance in their eyes. This ability to offer relative stability based on a predictable hardware profile is one of their key selling points. Those interested in seeing OS X as a freely purchasable piece of PC software miss the point that only a veeeerrry small highly tech literate crowd would buy it (out of the minute percentage of all pc owners who would even consider reinstalling the OS), most would pirate it and Apple would be lceft paying for it in terms of Support and loss of reputation when it didn't work smoothly. Apple has shown that they don't need to generalise to be successful, as their most popular lines are where they have specialised.

If they can grow this successful model whilst retaining huge mark ups on the hardware, and building on the hold they already have over the buying public in terms of iTunes, the iPhone and the iPod and their most loyal brand status, this will create problems for MS in the long term, regardless of whether you can see it or not. Fragmentation of the market is more dangerous for MS than anything else because it will hit their other profitabcle lines of business like Office.

Hey cat least the article wasnc't written by Mick this time...! Maybe now he bought a blackberry Storm he's no longer into Apple.


RE: Apple taking over the world
By NubWobble on 11/21/2008 9:00:18 AM , Rating: 2
Let's go ask those people who buy Macs and then install Windows on them because Mac OS performs much slower. The 'stability' of Macs comes from the fact that Apple bar third parties from making applications for the Mac. The PC is 'unstable' because everyone and their dog can add to the PC world, whereas with Mac you have to hope that Jabba de Fail allows copy and paste or flash on the iFail. Not really much to be proud off really.

Anyway you think that Mac OS can't be downloaded? If that's what you think then you should take a look at any torrent site and you will see.

quote:
Apple would be lceft paying for it in terms of Support and loss of reputation when it didn't work smoothly


People pirate Windows and they don't whine and yet they would whine about Mac OS not working right. Why would that be? Either you are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about or Mac OS needs specialists to install it because it's... horrible. I have seen many a guide on how to install Mac on PC but have never been interested as I don't want to submit to Jabba de Fail's incompatible software.

You also, so easily, forget the time that Mac grew from nothing to an empire and then fell to nothing within the blink of an eye. Apple's business strategy might seem good but it's just as fragile as it was back then and Jabba won't learn until Apple PC's have been consigned to history books.

quote:
hold they already have over the buying public


Let's not be too hasty now shall we? Apple is facing class action lawsuits in the US and EU because iTunes is a fraud. People are complaining daily about buying things off iTunes and not getting what they paid for. Apple are more than happy to take your money but to give something in return. You must be joking! Jabba has ordained it as such!

The iPhone is not a major success, however way you twist and turn it. It may not be sold in China because Jabba demanded, knowing how great he is, 30% of the revenue from calls made with the iFail. The Chinese laughed and Jabba lost out on billions. China is the worlds largest mobile phone market. Then there's the battery disaster, the lack of software and, of course, Jabba knows what users want.

quote:
Fragmentation of the market is more dangerous for MS than anything else


Yeah, MS make billions by selling Office to people like me and not multinational corporations and governments. Next time I start up OpenOffice Writer.. I mean Word I'll remind myself it's a MS product. Once upon a time I was a great fan of Wordperfect... I mean Word. It's a shame their consumer products died away and are now concentrating on corporate sales only.

And when it comes to buying Apple, I don't understand. I don't understand why people need to spend 2-3x more on an Intel & nVidia/ATI PC than any sane person would. Hype is one thing but a one button mouse after all these years (Mighty Mouse - insult to the cartoons) and then not being able to swap it without headaches is beyond me. My PC didn't cost nearly as much as an Apple and it performs a hell of a lot better than the best Apple you can buy, not in the least because I don't have to rely on Jabba and old chipsets (motherboard and video).

http://www.apple.com/imac/specs/

What is it? Is it the technical specs or is it the configuration? Divide and conquer and the sheeple will hail you as a genius when you allow them to 'upgrade' to a 2600pro. At least now we know where all or nVidia and AMD's rubbish is going.

Why didn't I buy a Mac in the first place instead of this stupid and worthless Q6600 the Apple sheeple will be allowed to have in about 4 years time. Then there's that 4870 of mine, I knew it was a big mistake to buy it, I should have bought a 2600Pro instead for 4x its actual value. You're right, I'm stupid.


Top job
By WayneG on 11/21/2008 8:55:24 AM , Rating: 2
I like this article, it shows that Microsoft listens to whats happening around it and attempts to respond in the best way possible. Good read :).




RE: Top job
By NubWobble on 11/21/2008 9:10:19 AM , Rating: 2
The alternative was Jabba. He knows what you want and you don't want copy and paste or flash on the iFail.


Conspiracy
By Suntan on 11/20/2008 2:16:27 PM , Rating: 2
I know everybody likes a good conspiracy theory, and if an article gets posted here, it’s intended for the readers to see it as a conspiracy, but I fail to see anything in the emails that were quoted as anything other than coworkers at a company talking about their competitors products and their own products.

As to the thing about the vista ready stuff, I still view that debacle more as the faults of the BBs & CCs of the world. Its one thing to have a sticker on it that says “Vista Ready.” It’s another to have a zit faced teenager at the big box store tell you that it will completely run all of Vista’s advanced features even when the os was not set to come out for months afterwards.

Meh, in any case, XP still runs everything I need just fine. Don’t much care about vista or apple.

-Suntan




starwars
By William Gaatjes on 11/20/2008 4:36:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The paragraph caught the attention of Microsoft's Padmanand Warrier


"Padmanand Warrier"

Woops !

I thought that was not really a name but a phrase from star wars :).




By nangryo on 11/20/2008 8:58:54 PM , Rating: 2
Well, you got me..., I thought it was Jason ahahaha




Apple Products Are Overly Priced
By SpaceJumper on 11/21/2008 7:34:11 AM , Rating: 2
I was thinking to buy an Apple computer and ended up buying a HP mini 1035NR because of the price, size, weight, and software diversity. Even the open source Linux has more softwares than Mac. Mac is so limited to only a few applications. I also find the Mac GUI is like Windows 3.1 twenty years ago.
My brother is no longer liking his 6 months old MacBook and no longer defencing Apple products.




Its not the OS's fualt
By SlyNine on 11/21/2008 1:36:18 PM , Rating: 2
Its the fualt of these OEM's that install mountians of bloatware on a single core with <1gig of ram. If they took 30 min to streamline the OS people would be singing a different tune.




I was a Mac "believer"
By gochichi on 11/22/2008 6:39:58 AM , Rating: 2
Man, the level of ignorance surrounding Vista is unbeliavable.




What's the big deal about Vista?
By toolguy on 11/25/2008 6:50:00 PM , Rating: 2
I'm an engineering student and I've been running Vista on my dell xps 410 for about a year, and I've never had a single problem with it. And some times I really put it to work, like browsing, running a CAD program, playing music, and running computing software (Matlab) all at the same time. I really couldn't ask for anything better. I think some people just buy a $300 dollar computer and expect the world from it.




LOL
By chick0n on 11/21/2008 2:36:07 AM , Rating: 1
Seriously, Whoever that don't understand the line "You get what you paid for", I think those people doesn't even deserves to live.




Home Basic = BS
By piroroadkill on 11/21/2008 7:23:40 AM , Rating: 1
There should have only been the Vista Premium logo, and Home Basic should never have exsisted. All PCs capable of Vista should be capable of Aero, from the store - it's one of the most flashy features of Vista.

Microsoft really did fuck up, in my opinion. OK, so to be honest, DWM shouldn't have required DX9 hardware in the first place, there are plenty of good renderers capable of running on worse hardware. Please see OS X for a lesson on how to render your windows properly. Complete consistency from hardware accelerated to software accelerated as a fallback. Can accelerate on even the most shite Intel Integrated graphics (I've seen it on a GMA900, hardware accelerated for Quartz Extreme and Core Image).

But facing how bad Vista's desktop renderer is, and its stupid hardware requirements, Microsoft should have at least ensured their logo program only suggested PCs capable of the full experience.




Well...DUH!
By quiksilvr on 11/20/08, Rating: -1
RE: Well...DUH!
By Mitch101 on 11/20/2008 1:00:11 PM , Rating: 4
Normally I would argue over the benefits I have with Vista over XP. However since Windows 7 is a year away and most people will never accept Vista for whatever reason I'm not going to bother.

I hope Windows 7 exceeds everyone's expectations.


RE: Well...DUH!
By quiksilvr on 11/20/2008 1:12:41 PM , Rating: 2
For desktops Vista is fine but for notebooks I don't think its best. Its true that SP1 helped with the battery life but still.


RE: Well...DUH!
By Hare on 11/20/2008 2:39:32 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly the reason why I haven't upgraded my work laptop. I really like Vista (I'm also an OS X user) but it is really unfortunate that the same hardware gets a huge battery life increase when running Mac OS X. I think Anandtech even made an article about this. Vista doesn't really know how to conserve battery.


RE: Well...DUH!
By chmilz on 11/20/2008 1:38:27 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I hope Windows 7 exceeds everyone's expectations.

I hope MS learned something and at launch rolls out an immediate and aggressive ad campaign that sells the features and benefits of the product before Mac can make up fantastical stories about how bad Windows 7 is since they can't find anything worthwhile to talk about in their own product other than it being a $2000 dock for your iPod.

</run on sentence>


RE: Well...DUH!
By BladeVenom on 11/20/2008 2:13:45 PM , Rating: 2
A great DX10 only game would have been a nice way to show off Windows 7. Too bad MS has almost completely abandoned PC gaming for consoles.


RE: Well...DUH!
By murphyslabrat on 11/20/2008 2:40:05 PM , Rating: 2
A good reason to have a DX10 only game would also help, as that is a ludicrous idea, involving the alienation of anyone without a current-gen GPU. Those guys may not have the cash to shell out for a new card, but that's because they'd rather get games.


RE: Well...DUH!
By spread on 11/20/2008 5:34:24 PM , Rating: 2
Even last-gen, and the gen-before-that GPUs are DX10.

Back to the 2900XT and the 8800GTX.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/20/2008 6:07:53 PM , Rating: 2
Um, wasn't the 8800GTX only released in November 2006, a mere month before Vista and at an incredibly unaffordable pricepoint.


RE: Well...DUH!
By Etsp on 11/20/2008 8:02:56 PM , Rating: 2
Chicken and egg....


RE: Well...DUH!
By Donkeyshins on 11/20/2008 6:47:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
by BladeVenom on November 20, 2008 at 2:13 PM

A great DX10 only game would have been a nice way to show off Windows 7. Too bad MS has almost completely abandoned PC gaming for consoles.


I wonder if Alan Wake will ship prior to Win 7? It's supposed to be DX10 and if it lives up to the previews, could be pretty damn good. Of course, it has to actually make it out the door first.


RE: Well...DUH!
By Screwballl on 11/20/08, Rating: -1
RE: Well...DUH!
By rcc on 11/20/2008 3:33:05 PM , Rating: 2
I had Windows ME on a computer many moons ago. It was indeed the OS that never should have been. Unstable and just a basic pain in the tail.

I currently have one system running Vista Ultimate. While it had a tough startup, I currently have no problems with it. The current issue that Vista sales has is that there is no real need to upgrade from XP for most users. Unless you need another license, then you may as well get Vista, it works fine.

IMNSHO, of course.

As far as W7 = Vista..... well duh. Did anyone really expect a brand new OS is 2 years?


RE: Well...DUH!
By TomZ on 11/20/2008 3:38:51 PM , Rating: 4
I agree, and I'd like to add one thing. I think there is an expectations problem as well. At the end of the day, these are very mature operating systems. While there is some room for improvement and opportunities for innovation, but the days of being able to "blow away" customers with a new version and creating a totally compelling upgrade are in the past. We're in the area of diminshing marginal returns.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/20/2008 3:59:16 PM , Rating: 1
Um, maybe in Windows land we're in the land of diminishing returns...

I know you disagree with me because I prefer Mac (and not because Windows is actually superior to Mac), but Apple does manage to implement "blow away" features in their OS:

Expose (which Microsoft tried to copy with Flip3D) is a drastically superior window management tool
Time Machine (which works automatically as soon as you plug in a hard drive AND has a superior UI) makes backup AND restore automatic. Vista only makes backup automatic, restore not so much.
Safari makes Javascript faster in each release, while IE has been stuck, performance wise, for years. Also made Safari more standards compliant with each release

Microsoft hasn't been wowing us, but it doesn't mean they can't.


RE: Well...DUH!
By TomZ on 11/20/2008 4:38:20 PM , Rating: 2
I think you proved my point exactly. The improvements you cited for OSX are hardly revolutionary or compelling. Wow - faster Javascript - more automatic backup/restore - I'm sure that will really get people to upgrade!


RE: Well...DUH!
By William Gaatjes on 11/20/2008 4:45:43 PM , Rating: 2
Speed ups because of better code paths are always preferred.

Because this desire to optimise for speed usually also means bugs are found that can cause rare to very rare unexpected behaviour. Optimising code is always a good thing. It makes your code lean and mean. And when new features are added it seems that these features are not at the expense of execution speed. Customer is always happy and will return. And for the programmer it is easier to maintain the code.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/20/2008 6:13:51 PM , Rating: 2
No, you MISS my point. A change that WOWs us doesn't have to be revolutionary. Expose is exciting without being revolutionary. Automatic backup and restore is exciting without being revolutionary. It makes backup literally brainless, and in doing so encourages everyone to backup.

Faster javascript is also a WOW moment because now the internet is faster, cooler, and more capable, even if it isn't revolutionary.

We don't need Microsoft to make revolutionary changes, we need Microsoft to make EXCITING changes, even if they aren't revolutionary.


RE: Well...DUH!
By NubWobble on 11/21/2008 9:06:23 AM , Rating: 2
The change that will WOW you is when Jabba finally decides he will allow you to have flash and copy and paste on the iFail. That should be in a few years, don't worry.

And I'm glad Apple have made revolutionary products. I mean the iFail is really revolutionary isn't it, that's why it's taken Japan and the entire world by storm?

The only thing Apple have done is brainwash people like you that Jabba is a messiah and that he knows what you want, when he might not even be using an Apple product himself. And if he is you want to be his iFail has all the things you aren't being permitted to have?

Let the blind fanboyism continue.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/21/2008 2:42:27 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.canalys.com/pr/2008/r2008112.htm

Um, Apple's iPhone is #2 worldwide behind Nokia. 17%, but still #2. If that isn't taking the world by storm (from 0% to 17% under 2 years), what is? Japan will take a little longer, I'm sure, but that was the case for the iPod too.

I'm not even sure why you think I'm victim to blind fanboyism when you seem to be victim to blind hatred. Kind of like a pot calling a kettle black, you know?


RE: Well...DUH!
By omnicronx on 11/21/2008 3:51:58 PM , Rating: 2
Those are smartphones sales, how many times are you going to post this saying the iPhone accounts for 17% of world phone sales when you know damn well they account for less than 3%.

You also can't count RIM out yet, they are releasing two new phones, one of which (BB Storm) will open them to an entirely different market, which is currently dominated by the iPhone. Chances are the Storm will take away from iPhone sales.

The previous poster is a moron, but it seems like you troll dailytech for any posts that have anything to do with Apple.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/21/2008 7:20:53 PM , Rating: 2
I actually thought it was obvious I was talking about Smartphone sales. I apologize if I was confusing, as I intended the conversation to be limited to smartphones.

In any case, the Storm sounds like an excellent phone, but it doesn't sound like it will be luring people away from the iPhone, merely preventing Verizon/BB customers from jumping ship. In the end the competition is good for all of us (I'm excited by the cut and paste on the Storm and hope to see something similar from Apple).


RE: Well...DUH!
By nitrous9200 on 11/20/2008 10:43:48 PM , Rating: 2
Expose is nice, but I can still use the taskbar much easier than the Dock to find what window I need. I find window management in Windows much simpler, rather than having windows all placed on the screen at once. And I find new Apple users don't understand the window system quite as well when I am teaching them how to use it. And Apple still won't allow you to maximize a window to the entire screen...why? It's less distracting.
Time Machine may be hot like all other Apple products, but no incremental backups? Waste of space. Vista restore is really not that hard.
And since Safari has enough problems of it's own and IE hasn't been updated in ages, we have Firefox and Opera filling in the void.
Finally, while Vista hasn't been a WOW in the public's eyes, it made a lot of great changes under the hood, in addition to being prettier, that will make moving to Windows 7 painless. And from the looks of it, Microsoft is continuing to improve aspects of the OS that started with Vista. (Plus, the lower hardware requirements should help, if that actually happens. Of course, when a customer brings a computer in to my store for an OS reinstall, their opinion of Vista changes when they see how blazingly fast it can be.)
Not to say OS X is bad, it's got many strong points but seems way overhyped considering it too has (and had) problems.


RE: Well...DUH!
By TomZ on 11/20/2008 1:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Vista was just like the 360; it was rushed. It took the 360 two years+ to stabilize and fix all of the issues before it was deemed a "reliable" console.

First of all, what does this have to do with the article?

Second, how could you call a 5-year development cycle "rushed"?

I can also tell by the rest of your post that you have zero personal experience with Vista. You need to stop reading the Linux fanboy posts and try it yourself. We've got a dozen Vista machines here that we use constantly and don't have any of the kinds of problems that you describe. Vista is far better than XP, which we all ran before Vista.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/20/2008 1:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
Vista didn't have a 5 year cycle. There was an internal reset in 2004, which means Vista actually only had a 2 year dev cycle since they released in November 2006. For any other Microsoft OS, 2 years IS rushed.

Windows 7, in comparison, had from 2006 until 2009, which is 3 years.


RE: Well...DUH!
By mikefarinha on 11/20/2008 2:08:23 PM , Rating: 2
True, but just because they had a 'reset' it doesn't mean that everything created prior to the reset was wiped out.

The reset was more of a change of focus from features to security. I'm sure a lot was thrown out but I doubt it was 3 years worth of work.

At its core Vista is a rock and a very good platform for Windows 7.


RE: Well...DUH!
By michael2k on 11/20/2008 3:48:49 PM , Rating: 2
You are right, not EVERYTHING was wiped out, but at the same time, it wasn't a 5 year project, and it wasn't leisurely.

I do agree that Vista is a good platform for Windows 7.


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