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Print 88 comment(s) - last by atechfan.. on Jul 7 at 10:27 AM

Aluminum is too expensive to use in Tesla's entry-level sedan

Tesla Motors’ Model S electric sedan has made quite a mark on the automotive scene thanks to its good looks, impressive performance, “adequate” driving range, and the support of its growing Supercharger network. However, the Model S is a vehicle that starts at $69,900 (before a $7,500 federal tax credit and applicable state credits, rebates) and can reach into the $100,000 price range for the Performance model.
 
Tesla is never going to conquer the mainstream market with a $70,000+ vehicle, so work is well under way on its entry-level electric sedan that will slot in below the Model S. The “Model E” — as the press likes to call it — will be roughly 20 percent smaller than the Model S and will be constructed of more “appropriate materials” according to Tesla’s VP of Engineering, Chris Porritt.
 
This likely means that the Model E will feature a unibody constructed primarily of steel instead of the more expensive aluminum used in the Model S. It’s still likely, however, that aluminum will be used sparingly in areas like the trunklid, hood, and suspension subframes to save weight.
 
“I expect there will be very little carry-over,” said Porritt. “We’ve got to be cost-effective. We can’t use aluminum for all the [small car’s] components.”


Tesla Model S
 
The Model E will be primarily positioned against the BMW 3-Series ($32,750), Mercedes C-Class ($35,800), and Audi A4 ($33,800).
 
Porritt also took the time to call out electric vehicles like the Nissan Leaf that forsake style in order to present a quirky, green image. “People don’t want to look eccentric. They want to have pride in their car’s looks.”


Tesla Model X with its rear Falcon Doors in the open position
 
The Model E is still at least two year away, with production slated to commence in late 2016. In the mean time, the next model in the pipeline from Tesla is the Model X crossover, which is based on the Model S. The vehicle will be available with dual electric motors and “eccentric” rear Falcon Doors that are supposed to make entry into the rear passenger area of the vehicle easier. It’s scheduled to enter production next year.

Source: Autocar



Comments     Threshold


Let's wait and see
By Griffinhart on 7/2/2014 10:27:16 AM , Rating: 3
I'd like to see them come out with a practical, affordable EV, but going from Aluminum to Steel may translate into significantly lower ranges due to the extra weight.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with and the cost. For EV's to become mainstream, they need decent range (not the sub 100 mile range of most today) and cost under $30,000. Preferably closer to $20K.




RE: Let's wait and see
By karimtemple on 7/2/2014 11:00:18 AM , Rating: 2
With the right design, it should work out. They could let the only steel part be the unibody chassis and still come out with a substantial cost savings while not really raising weight too much, especially considering that the car will be quite a bit smaller than the Model S. Steel is heavier but it's also stronger, so it doesn't necessarily have to be a 1:1 replacement of the would-be volume of aluminum. Theoretically they could use half as much steel by volume and maintain a similar durability profile.


RE: Let's wait and see
By BRB29 on 7/2/2014 1:10:40 PM , Rating: 3
When jaguar replaced steel with aluminum, it saved 400 lbs total on their vehicles. While that's great, the Tesla Model S battery weighs over 1000 lbs.

All they have to do is make the Model E smaller, increase battery density with newer tech, and they can still cute 600 lbs easily even if the steel added 200 lbs.


RE: Let's wait and see
By karimtemple on 7/2/2014 3:16:27 PM , Rating: 2
Even with the very same battery, the Model E doesn't have to do all that much to cut the Model S price by half or more. Keep in mind that the Model S has, what is it, a 17-inch touchscreen? lol. All-glass panoramic roof? Over 300 horsepower? Between any sort of economies in the electric engine, the steel chassis, and NOT having 17-inch touchscreens and such, they could probably put out a half-priced car RIGHT NOW. I think the only thing we're waiting on is the fact that the Model E will not be based on the Model S, but the start of a whole new platform (on which the next Model S would be based).


RE: Let's wait and see
By anothermax2 on 7/2/2014 7:56:09 PM , Rating: 2
The 7000 18650-type batteries on the battery pack are worth about $21,000 (at bulk pricing - 35,000 on ebay :) . Throw in the electronics, charging circuit and control options and you are at $25,000. TO hit the $34,000 competitor prices they need to build the rest of the car for 9000. Not likely, even with no sunroof, not touchscreen and smaller wheels...


RE: Let's wait and see
By sigmatau on 7/2/2014 9:54:13 PM , Rating: 2
That is why they are trying to make the battery 50% cheaper via the Gigafactory. That would free up an additional $10k at the least. So they should be able to build a good car for $20k.


RE: Let's wait and see
By BillyBatson on 7/2/2014 7:08:23 PM , Rating: 2
Whether battery tech advances enough in 2 years for the model e to ship with a denser battery capacity the model e will still ship with a smaller and therefor lighter battery than what is found on the model S. Like the article says very little will make the jump from the S to the E and that includes a 1ton battery. Everyone should also expect a shorter driving range than the model S, partly due to the added steel weight, because of a smaller battery, and simply because Tesla charges more for their vehicles the higher the mileage (and no not just because they are selling you a larger battery, at one time they had 45wh, 65wh, and 85wh S versions, later the 45wh was phased out and they started selling the 65wh model that didn't let you use above 45wh for a lower MSRP), so if you want a Tesla for half the price of a Model S than you should pretty much expect had the driving range of a model S.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Let's wait and see
By chripuck on 7/2/2014 11:15:56 AM , Rating: 2
Well an even more compelling argument for you is the fact that what happens when you want to drive more than 80 miles before coming home.

I voiced that very issue to my boss when he bought his, his response? "That will happen so little it's not an issue." Except it became an issue 3 days ago, less than 2 weeks after he bought his Leaf. He ended up sitting at a local Nissan dealership for over an hour waiting to get topped off on the 480v charger. Coupled with the ugliness, no thanks...


RE: Let's wait and see
By Qapa on 7/3/2014 7:49:51 AM , Rating: 2
Well, if he is the boss, why not put a charging place at work.
Home and work are the 2 places where the car is stopped the most..

Unfortunately some companies don't allow their workers to charge their personal cars (even with the company having EVs!). And payment wouldn't be an issue for sure. But I digress.

Having a charging place at work is a huge stress relieve, as you can do errands and not worry too much about it. Otherwise it can be a pain.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Griffinhart on 7/2/2014 11:34:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I disagree that range is the issue. Even something like the Nissan Leaf has enough range for *most* daily use around town.


*most* is the problem. A car needs to have enough range for *all* of it's owners needs. It can't be not quite good enough. Most people aren't interested in a car that suits their needs 90% of the time.

Especially given the higher cost of ownership of EV's. Both initially (even with subsidies) and long term.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/2014 12:25:43 PM , Rating: 1
Preaching to the choir here buddy. I've said the same here myself many times.

I was just hoping to avoid the same old arguments. Nitpicks about range aside, the big hurtle is charge times imo.


RE: Let's wait and see
By nafhan on 7/2/2014 2:01:12 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Most people aren't interested in a car that suits their needs 90% of the time.
I'd say that's true of people (especially families) that have a single vehicle. There's a huge market of two+ vehicle households that are willing to compromise on their second/commuter vehicle. I fall into that category, and for perspective, even the 250 mile range of the Model S would be a deal breaker, as my family's only vehicle.


RE: Let's wait and see
By foxalopex on 7/2/2014 3:37:04 PM , Rating: 2
I still find it weird that folks seem to forget that the Volt is essentially an EV at heart in that it does about 40 miles on battery alone when fully charged and then switches over to gas when it runs out for as far as you want to go. It's also comparable in price to a fully loaded Prius in many places and is a pure EV if you manage to keep your daily trips below 40 miles. It's a no-compromise vehicle at least in ability here.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Rukkian on 7/2/2014 3:42:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I still find it weird that folks seem to forget that the Volt is essentially an EV at heart in that it does about 40 miles on battery alone when fully charged and then switches over to gas when it runs out for as far as you want to go. It's also comparable in price to a fully loaded Prius in many places and is a pure EV if you manage to keep your daily trips below 40 miles. It's a no-compromise vehicle at least in ability here.


To me, while the volt is an okay stop gap, it is not the end goal. You add in alot more complexity and now have to maintain both the EV (little maint) and the ICO (plenty of maint, especially on many GM cars).


RE: Let's wait and see
By Monkey's Uncle on 7/2/2014 4:12:41 PM , Rating: 2
The Volt is a plug-in hybrid not an EV. Comparing it to an EV makes about as much sense ad comparing it to a gas-only car or a diesel.

Each car type has its strengths and weaknesses. Each also has a target demographic that it best suits. If you want to compare the volt to anything, compare it to other plug-in hybrids.


RE: Let's wait and see
By kmmatney on 7/2/2014 12:45:56 PM , Rating: 2
A coworker of mine leased a Leaf for 6 months (some sort of special offer when it first came out), and on a couple of occasions he was stuck with not enough charge to make it home, but enough to make it to a Nissan dealership to get charged. He never got stuck, but was always worried about it, and was glad to get rid of it after the 6 months was up. All he really needed was more range to want to keep it.


RE: Let's wait and see
By jnemesh on 7/2/2014 1:47:00 PM , Rating: 2
No, you are wrong. The best charging solution for the Model S takes 45 minutes to get a 90% charge. Do your homework before posting inaccurate information.


RE: Let's wait and see
By atechfan on 7/2/2014 2:01:51 PM , Rating: 2
The Supercharging Stations can get it to 50% charge in 20 minutes. That is good for approximately 150 miles. Should be sufficient more most uses. Stop off for a sandwich, coffee and a piss, and you are good to go when done.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Nutzo on 7/2/2014 2:54:15 PM , Rating: 2
Drive 15 minutes to a Supercharging Station (assuming you are actually that close to one), wait 20 minutes for a 50% charge, and another 15 minutes back to where I was starting.

150 miles is less than 4 gallons of gas on my Hybrid, so you would be wasting almost an hour to save $15. My time is usually worth more that that.

I'd rather take 3-4 minutes to fill up my hybrid at a gas station, usually only a couple blocks away, and drive another 600 miles.

Barring some huge breakthrough, Electric cars will always have the range and charging time issues that most people don't want to deal with.

I'd be happy with a plugin hybrid with around a 20 mile range. That would usually cover my commute, and the smaller battery would easily be recharged on a standard 120 volt plug overnight.
For the times I need more range, since it's a hybrid (preferably with a decent sized gas tank for at least a 500 mile range)I wouldn't have to worry about the range.


RE: Let's wait and see
By atechfan on 7/2/2014 3:09:48 PM , Rating: 2
I'm assuming that most of the time the 300 miles range on a Model S is an issue is when you are taking long trips, not on your daily driving, so there will probably be stations along your way. Of course, I agree that the Volt-style plug-in hybrid is a better option. I've said that before. But that wasn't really the point of my post. It was to counter the false statement that it takes several hours to charge a Model S.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 5:08:29 PM , Rating: 2
I couldn't even use any of the supercharger stations. The closest one is 65 miles and I don't go by there that often. Sometimes when I'm on vacation. Next closest is 90 miles and I never go by that one. I'll admit, it would be cool to own one but it just doesn't work for me. I wouldn't be able to drive anywhere (other than work for the most part).


RE: Let's wait and see
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/2014 8:16:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It was to counter the false statement that it takes several hours to charge a Model S.


I was obviously not talking about Supercharger times. Come on! Superchargers are not even a reality for most of the country. Try looking at a goddamn map of America sometime.

It takes HOURS for the average EV owner to charge their vehicle. There is no such thing as 480 volts going to your house, that's three phase. And the vast majority of people don't have a Supercharger anywhere NEAR them.

You're just being, of course, purposefully obtuse and rude because you just HAVE to hate on anything I post.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Cheesew1z69 on 7/2/2014 10:01:05 PM , Rating: 2
I have some 5 min up the street :)


RE: Let's wait and see
By Brovane on 7/4/2014 11:33:11 AM , Rating: 2
I just drove from Orange County to Lake Tahoe on vacation and I drove by multiple Super-Chargers and could have easily have driven to Tahoe using them. Why don't you try looking at a map of the Super-Charging network. They are spreading out along the major Interstate corridors. A couple of years ago there was about 6 and now there is almost 100.


RE: Let's wait and see
By atechfan on 7/7/2014 10:19:16 AM , Rating: 2
Look at the 2015 planned supercharger map. It pretty much covers the whole country by then. Will they meet that schedule? I have no idea, but if they do, the Tesla actually becomes a viable option for many Americans. I still think electrifying work trucks is a better overall reduction of fossil fuel usage, but Teslas are sexier than crane trucks, I guess.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 2:56:20 PM , Rating: 2
A few times a year I visit the inlaws in AZ. About a 450 mile trip. Usually stop once but with the S, I'd have to stop at least 3 times if there were supercharger stations on that route. And that's assuming I get 200 miles of range. That drive takes long enough with just the one stop. No thanks.


RE: Let's wait and see
By atechfan on 7/2/2014 3:04:00 PM , Rating: 2
Try driving that distance with kids. You'll be stopping 3 or 4 times anyway.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 3:32:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Try driving that distance with kids. You'll be stopping 3 or 4 times anyway.
I have. It's still one stop.


RE: Let's wait and see
By flyingpants1 on 7/3/2014 10:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
Then don't buy it. It came out in 2012, only 2 years ago and you're already whining about long trips?

By 2015, the superchargers will cover USA and western Europe.

By 2018, there will be 340-mile batteries.

By 2020, Tesla will still have under 0.5% market share, so plenty of time to improve from there. By the time anyone can actually get a Tesla, this should be solved.

There are some lithium ion batteries that are able to charge at 6C, so charging 300 miles in 10 minutes is not out of the question. It's just a matter of time.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Brovane on 7/4/2014 11:38:07 AM , Rating: 2
Why would you need to stop 3 times with a vehicle with a 250+ mile range to go 450 miles? You leave the house on a full charger and you would stop twice, the second time near Phoenix so you could top off the battery before getting into town. You could probably do it on one charge if you pushed it.


RE: Let's wait and see
By scbundy on 7/2/2014 2:34:27 PM , Rating: 1
I'm a big EV proponent, but I agree with you for the most part. The range is getting better, especially with what Tesla is doing, for my purposes it would be enough. But the charge time is still far too slow. 99% of the time, I'd be ok, cause I'd charge at night. But what about when I get home after work, near the end of my charge and realize I need to run out, maybe its my nieces birthday party, or whatever. Stopping for gas takes 3 minutes. Waiting 30m or more would now make me late, I miss the party, I miss the movie, I'm late for work and gonna get in trouble.

The Tesla station battery swap is one solution, but not when there isn't a station nearby. Its not enough if my city has one, it has to literally be on my way to where I'm going to useful. And there isn't one in my city right now

To round it off I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. -40C for months at a time will turn that 200 mile range into a silly joke.

So while I love the tech happening here. Right now, it isn't ready for me.


RE: Let's wait and see
By andrewaggb on 7/2/2014 4:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
lol. That's what I keep telling people (also from Edm, AB). our weather and long distances between cities just don't make sense for an electric car. At least not yet.


RE: Let's wait and see
By scbundy on 7/2/2014 7:20:21 PM , Rating: 2
Yup. The nearest big city is 300km (~200mi) away. The next nearest big one after (over 500,000 people) is Winnipeg or Vancouver. Both 12 hour drives or more. Tesla would have to spread dozens of stations in these cities and along the routes of these cities for their EV's up here to be viable. It doesn't do us any good when they say, "Oh there's a station in Calgary, you're covered" Calgary is a big place. Nobody's spending a hour navigating through the city to find the 1 station and then working their way back out.

To really get the buy in, there needs to be stations everywhere, and that's after recharge time has been drastically improved.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Nutzo on 7/2/2014 2:58:26 PM , Rating: 1
Would you buy a washing machine that could only wash most of your cloths? Or a Freezer that would only keep most of your food cold? How about a phone that would let you answer most of your calls?

That's the real problem. People need a car that can handle all their needs (or at least as many as possible)


RE: Let's wait and see
By atechfan on 7/2/2014 3:16:17 PM , Rating: 5
Tons of people have 2 or more vehicles. There re many usage scenarios that one vehicle cannot provide all your needs, even leaving electrics out of the equation. An electric can easily be the daily commuter car for tons of people. Then they have a van or SUV as the kid hauler/family trip vehicle. Or a truck to haul their boat/horses/camper, etc.

You people act as if single guys living in apartment building or dorm rooms are the only car buyers.


RE: Let's wait and see
By scbundy on 7/2/2014 4:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
I already have 2 vehicles, cause I need one that's larger and more equipped for longer trips. But the problem still remains where my wife and kids are using that vehicle and I'm stuck with the car. Like it was already said on here. An EV would cover 99% of my uses. I need it to cover 100%. I'm very excited about this tech, and I love the elegance of it. But it still falls a bit short for me.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 5:00:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You people act as if single guys living in apartment building or dorm rooms are the only car buyers.
And you people act as if everyone only uses their cars for only one thing. Typically in a two car household, BOTH cars are in a sense duplicates of each other. As in they perform duplicate functions. There is no long or short trip car, commuter only car, or groceries only car. I have 3 cars and two are daily drivers, all can do groceries although mine is limited on space, all have been driven on long trips, and all have been used as commuters. If we bought an EV, it could ONLY be used for commuter duty OR getting groceries. That's it! $60+k for something that can only do one thing at a time? HELL NO!


RE: Let's wait and see
By nafhan on 7/2/2014 4:57:08 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Would you buy a washing machine that could only wash most of your cloths? Or a Freezer that would only keep most of your food cold? How about a phone that would let you answer most of your calls?
You just described, probably, all the appliances in America. I'll even add to your list: I usually hand wash a couple pots and pans every day, and this by no means indicates something is wrong with my dishwasher!


RE: Let's wait and see
By Rukkian on 7/2/2014 3:38:38 PM , Rating: 2
I know you will never use an EV, no matter what, we get that. I also agree that Charging is an issue, but is is not "THE" issue. If you can get an affordable, good looking EV with decent performance in a decent price that has 200+ range, it will go a long ways to replacing a second car in multi-car families.

My wife goes less than 9k miles a year in her car (mine gets 24K+ typically) and has not been more than 50 miles from home in 3+ years. We could easily replace her car with an EV and be much better off, but right now, the car is not available that matches those requirements.

Would it be very nice to have a car that charges as fast as you can put gas in - absolutely, is it a deal breaker for everybody, including multi-car families (like mine) no, not in my opinion.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Let's wait and see
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 5:10:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Everything else will be regulated off the marketplace.
Rich people will still have choices, the rest of us won't.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Reclaimer77 on 7/3/2014 9:42:47 AM , Rating: 2
I think that's exactly where we're heading.

How ironic that the very people who loathe the 1% and hold them up as all that's wrong in our society, will be the only ones able to have a comfortable standard of living in the new Progressive world order.


RE: Let's wait and see
By Ktracho on 7/2/2014 6:59:15 PM , Rating: 4
Choosing to buy an all-electric car must certainly be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. However, I would argue that the cost does not need to be under $30K to be viable. In my estimation, I save at least $200/mo. by driving my Ford Focus Electric because electricity after midnight is so much cheaper than buying gas. So let's say over a ten-year period it amounts to over $20K savings, and that's without adding up all the money saved from unneeded maintenance. (Last year, I sold a car I bought brand new 16 years ago. Last week, I sold a Jaguar that I bought used for $20K almost 10 years ago, and I still have a minivan I bought brand new 14 years ago - it's already on its second motor.) I would certainly be willing to pay $20K for a brand new car with leather seats, and with the savings I'm getting with my electric car, my cost is roughly equivalent to a hypothetical ICE car in the $20K range. Now granted, the cost of electricity will go up, but so will the cost of gasoline.

As for range, it's rarely a problem, but then it's not my only car. The only time I've really been in a bind in the 20 months I've had it is when our minivan's motor seized up and I had to rescue my wife, who was on her way back from taking our daughter to college. Our Jaguar was in the shop at the time.

Emergencies happen, but my point is I think all electric cars are viable for a lot of people. I won't say most, but it's way more than just me.


Perhaps another alternative for the 'AND' car
By GotThumbs on 7/2/2014 2:41:37 PM , Rating: 2
I totally agree with Porritt in that
quote:
“People don’t want to look eccentric. They want to have pride in their car’s looks.


I'll be interested to see if the ELIO does what the owner expects.

http://summerfever.eliomotors.com/

For $6,800, it would be a reasonably inexpensive 2nd car used for two and from work driving and still has great range on longer trips where only one or two people are going.

It's not your typical car and stands out in a good way IMO.

~Best wishes on your choices




By GotThumbs on 7/2/2014 2:53:03 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.eliomotors.com/

Over 23,000 reservations to date.

It will be interesting to see how this vehicle does/competes with EV's.

Price is king, and this will allow even limited budget families to have a second car. Keep the SUV for transporting around a large family.


By GotThumbs on 7/2/2014 2:58:26 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45edgjf/10364/

Forbes has more photos of an ELIO on the road an interior.

No, I don't work for ELIO, but I'm pretty siked about the possibilities this car could bring to the market and higher fuel savings.


By Spuke on 7/2/2014 5:12:08 PM , Rating: 2
Dudes! That's even MORE goofy looking than the Leaf. Hell, give me a Leaf please. Blech!


By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/2014 8:23:49 PM , Rating: 2
Holy crap, what a deathtrap. No thank you.

I see that getting a NEGATIVE score in the offset crash test, or any kind of crash test.

And I don't think trying to classify it as a motorcycle is going to fly with legislators. And if it gets classified as one, that means in most states you have to wear a helmet while driving this by law. Oh joy!


By atechfan on 7/7/2014 10:27:27 AM , Rating: 2
With 55 HP, I wouldn't want to try to merge on to the freeway.


bring total cost of ownership down
By laststop311 on 7/5/2014 6:30:42 PM , Rating: 2
the problem with the model s is the only real reason you would want to go all electric is to save money. Even though you save money on fuel the initial cost is so high you never fully recoup it. Even though maintenance costs are lower that still isn't enough to be cheaper over the life of the car vs a 17k compact car. People only want the hassles of electric if the total cost of ownership over the life of the car will be cheaper (ok some hippies care about co2 emissions but whatever) and right now that isn't happening.




By flyingpants1 on 7/6/2014 5:18:54 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah.. we're not comparing a $70,000 car with a $17,000 car.


Not news
By zephyrprime on 7/2/2014 10:55:25 AM , Rating: 2
How is this even news? Of course it's going to be steel unibody since that's the cheapest way to build it. It's lower cost so it's not gonna be carbon fiber or aluminum or something like that.




Its not about battery range
By Masospaghetti on 7/2/2014 3:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
Weight doesn't affect battery range as much as you might think. Why?

While it does take more energy to accelerate a heavier car, an electric car can recover most of it while braking, via regenerative braking.

Weight DOES affect vehicle dynamics though. Acceleration will suffer, and so will braking distance and handling. But for their entry level car, this isn't their priority anyway.




By ZorkZork on 7/6/2014 3:05:35 PM , Rating: 2
... if it wasn't for the fact that the car is way too wide for european roads and in particular parking spaces. So please Elon ... make the car the same width as other cars. Yes, I know the S model is supposed to be a bit like a supercar, but if there is nowhere to park it then ...

Also, I really don't care much for range - the number of days in a year where I drive more than 100 km can be counted on two hands. I can find a way around that.




I see Porritt
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: I see Porritt
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 10:22:25 AM , Rating: 2
I doubt seriously that the Model E will be anywhere near those base prices listed for its competition. If I were to guess, base price will be in the high $40k range. I wonder if there will be a battery pack choice like the S.


RE: I see Porritt
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/2/2014 10:27:21 AM , Rating: 3
* after $7,500 tax credit in fine print ;)


RE: I see Porritt
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 11:54:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
* after $7,500 tax credit in fine print ;)
Good point!


RE: I see Porritt
By Flunk on 7/2/2014 10:28:54 AM , Rating: 2
I expect it will be about $40,000 before the tax credit. So $32,500, after the tax credit and I'm sure anyone buying this can claim that whole credit. We'll have to wait and see.

I can't see them selling very many of these if they're cutting a lot of corners and the price isn't around the same as an Audi A4 or the low end of the BMW 3 series.


RE: I see Porritt
By dgingerich on 7/2/2014 11:14:43 AM , Rating: 1
Not if I have anything to say about it. I hope we can get rid of this bogus tax credit for electric cars long before then.


RE: I see Porritt
By tayb on 7/2/2014 11:17:26 AM , Rating: 2
Get rid of one, get rid of them all.


RE: I see Porritt
By karimtemple on 7/2/2014 10:42:04 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
This would be like the VP of engineering at BMW attacking Yugo for making ugly cheap cars back in the day.
Implying the Nissan Leaf is cheap. Your argument is invalid.
quote:
You know I generally dislike when CEO's and other employees make underhanded attacks and snide remarks regarding their competition.
No, this is pretty much overhanded. "An electric car doesn't have to be f%@#ing ugly" is neither underhanded nor snide.

WTF are you even on about??


RE: I see Porritt
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: I see Porritt
By GotThumbs on 7/2/2014 2:49:18 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The Nissan Leaf absolutely is "cheap", for an electric vehicle.


and super FUGLY.

I don't see why anyone would willing pay good money for such an ugly car, when you can buy a Prius or regular car that gets high fuel mileage (Volster or Fit) for much less. The break-even point in gas savings will be years. Years spent driving an ugly vehicle.

I'd rather spend the $6,800 on an ELIO. At least it's got better/unique styling over the leaf IMO.

~Best wishes on your choice.


RE: I see Porritt
By Manch on 7/2/2014 6:23:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It just has always bothered me when people in executive positions behave like Internet trolls.


So you're not an executive I take it...


RE: I see Porritt
By cruisin3style on 7/2/2014 11:00:50 AM , Rating: 3
i feel if you call other people elitist for acting or speaking in a certain way, you are yourself being elitist by saying other people shouldn't do this or speak like that

also, people say all the time how ugly hybrids or electric cars or whatever are. especially in the comments section on this website. i would be surprised if you yourself haven't said comments like that before

finally, the next time you badmouth somebody, something, some idea, or some organization on the internet, claiming that your way of thinking is better, remember to write "elitist" over the top of your bathroom mirror in lipstick or something


RE: I see Porritt
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/2014 11:08:27 AM , Rating: 1
You make some good points.

However I feel when you're in a position to speak to millions of people, you should be held to a different standard when making your statements than just some person on the Internet.

And is something wrong with your shift key, or is capitalization not your thing?


RE: I see Porritt
By cruisin3style on 7/2/2014 11:27:57 AM , Rating: 2
if i fix my shift key i'll have to fix my period key also

one or the other would be ok but i just can't deal with both ;)


RE: I see Porritt
By inighthawki on 7/2/2014 1:18:15 PM , Rating: 2
I'm calling your lie:

quote:
on this website . i would be surprised


Your period key clearly works!


RE: I see Porritt
By MZperX on 7/2/2014 1:47:58 PM , Rating: 2
That could have been Alt+46 too...


RE: I see Porritt
By inighthawki on 7/3/2014 2:41:01 AM , Rating: 2
touche


RE: I see Porritt
By amanojaku on 7/2/2014 2:06:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Your period key clearly works!
Sounds like it's moody and a hassle. It IS a period... ;)


RE: I see Porritt
By BRB29 on 7/2/2014 1:53:47 PM , Rating: 2
you obviously can use shift keys just fine since you used "" in your post.


RE: I see Porritt
By Gunbuster on 7/2/2014 11:04:25 AM , Rating: 2
The fuel cell is BS. Why push a bunch of energy into water or use natural gas to make Hydrogen when you could just use those forms of energy in the first place.


RE: I see Porritt
By chripuck on 7/2/2014 11:12:44 AM , Rating: 2
Because Hydrogen is a liquid fuel that can be transported all over the world and stored in tanks at refuelling centers. I know it's a big leap from the current method of storing highly flammable liquids in tanks around the world and quickly refilling our vehicles in a few minutes.

Oh wait...

Not only that, you could make a ridiculously large solar farm in the middle of the American Southwest where no one lives to create the hydrogen and ship it around the US and the world.

Now flip that around on battery tech and show me where it's easy to create a massive infrastructure out of thin air that will charge a battery in 3 minutes and said battery then will allow a 300+ mile range. If you had even an inkling of understanding regarding electricity and battery charging you'd realize it's likely never happening.

In reality what will probably end up happening is a convergence of hydrogen and battery in a Chevy Volt-esque setup. Electric for around town, hydrogen for long distance driving.


RE: I see Porritt
By niva on 7/2/2014 12:05:56 PM , Rating: 5
You realize that hydrogen atoms are so small that actually storing and "shipping" it is a really big problem right? This is by far the biggest challenge we have with hydrogen now as a form of fuel. Things have gotten better with materials and manufacturing over the years but this problem will persist.

Oh yeah, Hydrogen is flammable too. To keep it in liquid form enormous pressure is required. Did you ever see the space shuttle Challenger explosion?

The answer is that both technologies need to be pursued and developed. Batteries are getting better and the materials used within allow for faster charging and less degradation over lifetime. Even if that doesn't pan out so that you can conveniently charge your car in what you deep am acceptable time of 3 minutes there's always the potential of being able to swap out battery packs and off you go, in 30 seconds... is that fast enough for you?

Anyways, your last sentence summed it up well about convergence.


RE: I see Porritt
By Griffinhart on 7/2/2014 12:51:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You realize that hydrogen atoms are so small that actually storing and "shipping" it is a really big problem right? This is by far the biggest challenge we have with hydrogen now as a form of fuel. Things have gotten better with materials and manufacturing over the years but this problem will persist.


Not the huge problem you are making it out to be. Localized storage in 5000psi tanks is trivial. Any leak problems are related to cracks in the tank itself, which can be addressed easily enough. There is developing technology that allow storage of hydrogen in solid materials at low pressure as well.

quote:
Oh yeah, Hydrogen is flammable too. To keep it in liquid form enormous pressure is required. Did you ever see the space shuttle Challenger explosion?


Gasoline is inflammable too. And The Challenger Disaster wasn't caused by leaky hydrogen. It was a failure with the solid rocket booster which did not use hydrogen as a fuel.


RE: I see Porritt
By nafhan on 7/2/2014 5:12:30 PM , Rating: 2
The biggest distribution problem for hydrogen is that we've already got a decent network for electricity running straight to everyone's house, and nothing even close for hydrogen.

As of the end of last year, the East cost had a single publicly accessible hydrogen fuel station (according to the NYT). I could go 80 miles in Leaf before stopping. I couldn't do anything in a hydrogen fueled vehicle.


RE: I see Porritt
By ritualm on 7/2/2014 1:59:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did you ever see the space shuttle Challenger explosion?

If you cared to read what you wrote, that disaster had absolutely nothing to do with hydrogen under high pressure. In fact, it wasn't even the primary (groupthink - when engineers' concerns over safety were overruled by management not wanting another launch delay), secondary (weather-induced mechanical failure) or tertiary (lots of flammable material) causes of the disaster.


RE: I see Porritt
By Griffinhart on 7/2/2014 11:23:27 AM , Rating: 2
Because you then have a much more flexible vehicle as a result. The advantage of being able to fully fuel your vehicle in minutes vs hours can't be understated.

No need for charging stations to be installed at home. Something that may be ok for home owners, but what about renters?

It's not really a question of EV vs fuel cells because they both are EV's. The question is on what is the best way to deliver and store the energy to the vehicle. Batteries vs Fuel Cell.


RE: I see Porritt
By chripuck on 7/2/2014 11:07:28 AM , Rating: 2
Oh come on Reclaimer, even you have to admit the Leaf is ugly by even cheap competitor's standpoint. Nissan's own Altima is significantly better looking and, starting at 21k, couldn't possibly be that difficult to switch out an electric drive train for the $35k they're selling the high end Leaf's for.

The only reason I'm considering a Leaf is because of GA's tax incentives and the only reason I'm on the fence is because it's so damn ugly.


RE: I see Porritt
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/2014 11:18:15 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Oh come on Reclaimer, even you have to admit the Leaf is ugly by even cheap competitor's standpoint.


Absolutely. Of course it is. But that's not my point here.

Actually Nissan's entire design scheme lately seems to be about ugly little bubble cars. The Versa...not sure what that's all about lol.

I just don't think it's cool for people at Tesla to bash the Leaf in public statements. That unprofessional.


RE: I see Porritt
By euclidean on 7/2/2014 11:12:59 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with you here...I mean, only 'classy' looking cars are worth putting your pride in?

We bought a Nissan Juke...definitely Eccentric, and take quite a bit of Pride in our car...Same with the Leaf. There are other options if you don't like the Eccentric look, but it doesn't mean those of us who do like the look don't take pride in our vehicles.


RE: I see Porritt
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/2014 1:31:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I agree with you here...I mean, only 'classy' looking cars are worth putting your pride in?


Exactly! Well hate to tell you, but according to Tesla's VP of Engineering, you're an idiot. You should have spent almost three times more for something that's sexier!

Next up in the news, Ferrari's VP of Engineering calls the Model S a cheap slow piece of crap that doesn't even go "VROOOOM!!"...


RE: I see Porritt
By Shadowself on 7/2/2014 11:19:43 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
I can't tell if these statements are from Porritt, or Tim Cook they're so elitist. And that's just bad, you don't want to be in that league.


What's the purpose of pulling Apple's CEO into this other than to take a swipe at him and Apple?

Your comment worse than the people you mention. At least the people referenced in the article stayed on topic (talking about other cars) while you had to pull in a whole other industry to take your swipe.


RE: I see Porritt
By Reclaimer77 on 7/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: I see Porritt
By Spuke on 7/2/2014 5:14:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I was just trying to think of a CEO that routinely says narcissistic douchebag BS, and he popped into my mind first.
LMAO!


"We shipped it on Saturday. Then on Sunday, we rested." -- Steve Jobs on the iPad launch














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