were a species of prehistoric
hominid that existed 30,000 to 400,000 years ago. They
were the closest relative to humans, but it is thought that humans
drove them to extinction. Now led by ancient-DNA
expert Svante Pääbo of Germany's Max Planck Institute for
Evolutionary Anthropology, the Neanderthal genome has been
sequenced. Roughly a decade after the first full sequencing of
a human genome, the Neanderthal genome stands complete, with the full
study appearing in the journal Science.The
DNA for the project came from bone fragments of three female
Neanderthals excavated in the late 1970s and early 1980s from a cave
in Croatia. The ancient hominids lived approximately 38,000 to
40,000 years ago.It is speculated that Homo
which first evolved in
the plains of Africa, may have interbred with Neanderthals as they
spread out across the Middle East and North Africa. The new DNA
evidence indicates that this indeed occurred, but that it occurred
far earlier than previously thought -- approximately 80,000 years
ago.Humans and Neanderthals diverged between 270,000 to
440,000 years ago, but thanks to interbreeding, some Neanderthal
genetic traits survive to this day. Additionally, Neanderthals
and humans both appear to have evolved similar traits that
accomplished the same goals, but were not genetically identical (the
result of interbreeding).The project is a very difficult
one. Over 97 percent of the sample DNA is bacterial and fungal
DNA and must be painstakingly removed. Meanwhile researchers
must avoid contaminating the samples with their own DNA.
Researchers have been building a genome billions of base pairs long,
using fragments 40 to 50 base pairs in length. Describes Pääbo,
"We used half a gram of bones to produce the 3 billion base
pairs. I really thought until six or seven years ago that it
would remain impossible, at least for my lifetime, to sequence the
entire genome."Researchers found that sequenced human
genomes from one San from southern Africa, one Yoruba from West
Africa, one Papua New Guinean, one Han Chinese and one French person
shared 1 to 4 percent common genomic material with Neanderthals, the
result of these people's ancient ancestors interbreeding with the
close relative. The genes appear to offer no benefit and be
randomly placed. Additionally the transfer appears one way,
from Neanderthals to humans.The new work is not without
controversy. The hard evidence it provides is discomforting for
those whose religious doctrines claim that the Earth is less than
10,000 years old. Furthermore, it provides further evidence of
how humans and other hominids evolved,
a concept that is opposed by several religions.Still, those
more inclined to believe in science will certainly appreciate this
magnificent study. Computational biologist Webb Miller, part of
a Penn State team, a member of the team that sequenced the Woolly
Mammoth and "Otzi" iceman genome cheers, "This is a
way cool paper. I think it's really fascinating. Some [scientists]
will love it and some of them will hate it. It's great science."
quote: You gave a loaded example. Newtonian Mechanics are not incorrect. They are a valid approximation of the macroscopic world, whereas quantum mechanics does not add significant contributions to such measurements.How about the geocentric model of the universe that scientists accepted for almost 1,400 years? How about proteins and not DNA being important to heredity? Even now, they are finding that the "junk DNA" (as declared by scientists) might not be junk after all. How about anthropogenic global warming? And there are too many more examples to list, especially if one considers what's published in science journals. Depending on whom you ask, university professors generally say that 50-90% of what's published is garbage.
quote: Various fundamentalist doctrines need to begrudgingly accept evolution and an old Earth, much as they conceded in the 1500s that the Earth indeed revolves around the sun (an example you point out).
quote: I also know enough about science to understand that a lot of the claims on specifics are likely to be complete bull$h!t.
quote: What you fail to understand is that, by the knowledge at the time, the geocentric model best fit the data.
quote: The problem with the theory of evolution as I see it is that it's greatest champions are also the most biased in it's favor
quote: a lack of compelling and viable competing theories
quote: I think you've said yourself that you are an atheist, and when you take God out of the equation then evolution just makes sense, I agree.
quote: I consider myself a NON-FUNDAMENTALIST Christian
quote: but don't abandon science for your unseen diety or the man you believe to be his messenger
quote: That includes radical Muslims, like the 9/11 terrorists, and radical Christians, like Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber
quote: AND I consider myself a NON-FUNDAMENTALIST Christian. As John Lennon famously remarked, "Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me."I think there are many legitimate faiths and paths through life and to God...
quote: "those people weren't really xxxx religion", but when you preach a philosophy of damnation and intolerance, that is what you get in the end.
quote: There's overwhelming geological, paleontological, chemical, and astrophysical evidence that indicates the Earth, and the universe that it resides in are far older than 10,000 years old.
quote: And there's overwhelming evidence that evolution gave rise to species and continues to this very day.
quote: The fact that you fail to understand this fact tells me that eitherA) The American educational system in all its glory failed you very badly or..B) You're a member of a fundamentalist religion.
quote: And turn your back on fundamentalist Christianity, Islam, Scientology, or any other similar extremist message -- the world will be a better place for it.
quote: The problem with the theory of evolution as I see it is that it's greatest champions are also the most biased in it's favor. I think you've said yourself that you are an atheist, and when you take God out of the equation then evolution just makes sense, I agree. The problem is that all these schools of science you mentioned alone still cannot demonstrate how one lifeform A gets to become lifeforms B C and D+ over millions of years.
quote: DNA was discovered in 1869, but for a long time, it was kind of the unappreciated assistant: doing all the work with none of the credit, always overshadowed by its flashier protein counterparts.Even after experiments in the middle part of the 20th century offered proof that DNA was indeed the genetic material, many scientists held firmly that proteins, not DNA, were the key to heredity. DNA, they thought, was just too simple to carry so much information.It wasn't until Watson and Crick published their all-important double-helical model of the structure of DNA in 1953 that biologists finally started to understand how such a simple molecule could do so much. Perhaps they were confusing simplicity with elegance.
quote: Then you weren't rebutting my point. Are you even sure you know what it was? Try reading the thread again.
quote: We were talking about Watson and Crick, however.
quote: If you're going to move the goalposts back to the 19th century...
quote: ...then please name just one scientist who ridicules the researchers of 1869 for not instantly realizing DNA's role in heredity.
quote: If you can't, please drop this ridiculous line of reasoning.
quote: I ask again-- if you're going to continue this argument, name one scientist who ridicules 19th century researchers for not realizing the importance of DNA to heredity.
quote: No. Urban gave Galileo permission to write about Heliocentrism, as long as he treated it as simply a hypothesis.
quote: Furthermore, Galileo came into conflict with the Church long before Urban was even Pope. Galileo was denounced as early as 1615 (when Pope Paul V was in office), and the Inquisition formally ruled that geocentrism was correct, and instructed Galileo to abandon his Copernican heresies. The affair you allude to came a decade and a half later. Trying to cast this all as some personal spat between Galileo and Urban is the worst form of whitewashing historical revisionism.
quote: Once again, no. Galileo offended Urban by using the book to demolish the arguments of Simplicius on the omnipotence of God (arguments Urban himself strongly believed in and had personally expressed to Galileo personally).
quote: Grow a backbone and face the facts.
quote: You have a brain -- I suggest you try using it.
quote: The new work is not without controversy. The hard evidence it provides is discomforting for those whose religious doctrines claim that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Furthermore, it provides further evidence of how humans and other hominids evolved, a concept that is opposed by several religions.
quote: And that is exactly what Jason is doing, challenging Christians and those who believe in God. But there's just no need for it here, and it ends up actually detracting from the article. Notice how most people aren't actually discussing the discovery, but just fighting about what side is "right" or whatever.
quote: I'm no atheist, I'm just not a militant anti-science fundamentalist like you, and I can tell it really galls you.
quote: What gives me and others who research or follow the scientific community
quote: they are trying to subvert the national education system
quote: Listen up, it's good that the load of creationist rubbish is being challenged.
quote: Your post is full of stereotyping and complaints. Listen up, it's good that the load of creationist rubbish is being challenged.
quote: You act like religion and science are mutually exclusive.
quote: You also act like science hasn't ever killed anyone, but your friendly evolutionists the Nazi's and you'll quickly learn what kind of evil can result from believing that one race (blacks) and people (jews) are subhumans because of of their "science".
quote: Hitler was a christian.
quote: Nobody but the person who holds the belief can say what that belief is.
quote: By this standard anyone who does anything horrible can simply be brushed aside as not Christian.
quote: If he truly believed himself to be a Christian then that's what he was.
quote: Isn't it a "core belief" of Christianity that everyone falls short of that striving to achieve those ideal goals?
quote: What exactly is the cutoff point at which you believe a person can no longer be considered a Christian, even a bad one?
quote: You are redefining terms to fit your world view. A Christian is someone who believes in the divinity of Christ. Period.
quote: A Christian is someone who believes in the divinity of Christ. Period.
quote: You believe in a book you've never read? And you don't find it odd I know more about your religion than you do?
quote: I'm somewhat familiar with your bible, and I do recall that, according to orthodox dotrine, there is no line that you can cross.
quote: Still, if you don't want to accept Hitler, what about Torquemada, or any of the other countless Christian fanatics who spent their lives torturing and murdering in the name of God. Was Torquemada a Christian or not?
quote: a) There is no consensus on what exactly those "teachings state".
quote: Many have concluded it includes the persecution and death of disbelievers.
quote: b) There is not only no requirement for how closely you follow those "teachings" ... but your bible specifically states it's impossible to follow them exactly, and that you will not be penalized for failing to do so.
quote: according to Islam, Jesus and his revelations are considered holy
quote: Do you realize the man killed SIX MILLION people simply because of the color of their skin and their genetics? He attempted to wipe an ENTIRE race off the face of the earth!!! How can this be summed up as just "bad" or "horrible". We're not talking about some guy who killed someone in the heat of passion and is now trying to repent for it. Can you understand the difference here ?
quote: Christianity is a way of life, not a label. Hitler did NOT live that life, he did not even attempt to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ or the Bible. And if he was ever repentant about the horrible things he did, he sure as hell didn't document them or speak to others about them.
quote: Hitler was a complete psychopath and it's honestly offensive how you have become so hateful to Christians that you lump him in with them.
quote: Justification that only a child would come up with. I believe I'm a five legged flying toad, so what?
quote: If he believed in the divinity of Christ then he was a Christian.
quote: And I have family members who are Christian.
quote: I am simply refusing to accept your conveniently personalized definition for the word 'Christian.'
quote: Stalin and Mao both ate beef, and they killed tens of millions of people between them. What does this say about those who eat beef?
quote: See the fallacy in your argument?
quote: Neither Stalin nor Mao used atheism to justify their actions.
quote: The persecution of Jews in Germany, however, had a deep-rooted history based in Christian tradition.
quote: All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor. Then, as now, Jews have to be reminded intermittently that they were enjoying rights in any country since they left Palestine and the Arabian desert, and subsequently their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live."
quote: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves...Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.. eject them forever from this country, they are nothing but thieves and robbers...I shall give you my sincere advice: first to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."
quote: Oh really? Odd that much of my family grew up (religious I might add) in Soviet Russia and they never noticed the religious being herded into railcars for execution.
quote: Good lord...
quote: ...do you really now so little history?
quote: Jewish sentiments and stereotypes undergo changes. Rejection and discrimination of Jews is no longer based on religious differences alone. By the time the term "anti-Semitism" is first used in the late 1870s, Jews in Western Europe - though citizens with equal rights - are seen by many as alien to the nation or the people.Since the beginning of the century the notion has become popular that a "people" or "nation" is not a collection of individuals but a unique organism created by climate, landscape and traditions. These ideas, influenced mainly by the German Romantic Movement, repudiate the basic tenets of the enlightenment of common humanity and equality. In this view, Jews appear as alien intruders who need to be removed from the body of the nation.
quote: belief determines faith, not actions.
quote: We'll never know exactly what Hitler believed deep inside
quote: Perhaps you could support your argument without invoking mythological beings?
quote: ...they believe in his teachings
quote: Hitler was a christian. He claimed that he was doing God's work by eradicating the Jews.
quote: Hitler was a devout Catholic by the way.
quote: You can claim to be a member of MENSA all you want, Porkypooh, but it doesn't make it so.
quote: Science is NOT faith. If you can't prove it, it's speculation, not truth.
quote: If Neanderthals and humans were breeding, then, by the standard you just set, they ARE the same species, which means that "Neanderthals" are just a different race or breed or whatever you like to call it.
quote: but thanks to interbreeding, some Neanderthal genetic traits survive to this day
quote: the transfer appears one way, from Neanderthals to humans
quote: Overall, you are the one who is quite misinformed. Where did I say that distinct species cannot interbreed?
quote: Scientists argue about the rules, and I would be in favor of defining the ability to breed fertile offspring as being the same species and any additional distinctions being used to classify as subspecies and breeds.
quote: Distinct species CAN interbreed in many cases.
quote: Canis lupus familiaris is the domesticated dog, and "familiaris" is the subspecies, and from there we have different breeds. Domesticated dogs and wolves are the same species.
quote: Science is NOT faith. If you can't prove it, it's speculation, not truth.
quote: but a god (who is, by definition, far more complex) can.
quote: Yes. Google "protocells" for details.
quote: And, if you refuse to believe that, perhaps you can explain why you believe a cell can't form on its own, but a god (who is, by definition, far more complex) can.
quote: Err, actually we HAVE produced protocells in the lab. Many times, in fact
quote: Interpreting our not yet having every single answer in the book as being "proof that gods exist" is short sighted beyond belief.
quote: One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt."
quote: That's amazing progress for such a short amount of time. Interpreting our not yet having every single answer in the book as being "proof that gods exist" is short sighted beyond belief.
quote: Theologians, particularly some Protestant ones were vehemently opposed to a theory which set the Earth in motion "in contradiction of the scriptures". Among the first and most ardent opponents of the theory are prominent Protestants such as Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchton and Calvin. Initially the Roman Catholic church had not opposed the theory...possibly because of [the book's preface, which] suggested that the heliocentric theory was only a mathematical model which simplified computations but did not necessarily insist that the Earth was not the center of the Universe.However, around the turn of the century anti-Copernican sentiments started to grow. It spurred fundamentalist clergymen of many persuasions to search the Bible, line by line, for new passages that would confound the adherents of the Earth's motion. With growing frequency Copernicans were labeled "infidel" and "atheist." When, 67 years after the publication of the first edition, the Catholic Church officially joined the battle against Copernicanism in 1610, the formal charge was heresy. On March 5, 1616 the Sacred Congregation of the Index recognized the scientific value of De Revolutionibus but placed it on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum, that is the list of books forbidden as dangerous to the faith or morals of Catholics. It also decreed that, if the book was to be used, a number of "corrections" must be made . The decree was not promulgated until after the 1617 publication of the third edition in Amsterdam.One of the most famous victims of the Inquisition was Galileo Galilei who was persecuted for his support of the Copernican theory. He had been given permission by his friend, Pope Urban VIII, to write a book about the Copernican and the Ptolemaic system provided he discusses both systems noncommittally. The Inquisition, however, found him guilty of teaching Copernicanism in the resulting book, Dialogue Concerning the two Chief World Systems: Ptolemaic and Copernican. His sentence was commuted by the Pope to house arrest under which he spent the last eight years of his life.
quote: Hahahah!!You just lost your credibility bud. Spanish inquisition = another form of Catholicism, in which PEOPLE organized by men who like to determine belief, it was NOT the Roman Catholic church.
quote: Lets see..We have scientists who look at evidence and facts to come up with theories that fit.
quote: I like how you put that Mick: 'Still, those more inclined to believe in science' A belief is exactly what it is.
quote: Some humans apparently thought Neanderthals were looking mighty fine
quote: On the contrary, it merely proves beer goggles have existed as long has mankind has
quote: ...the transfer appears one way, from Neanderthals to humans.
quote: The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death
quote: As we move to the period of first Greek and then Roman domination of the eastern Mediterranean world (the fourth century B.C.E. to the first century C.E.), the biblical materials reflect drastic development with regard to the view of the future. The older Hebrew view of the cosmos, the restoration of national Israel, and the transformed cosmos of the new age–continue, but they are fundamentally transformed and merged in rather complicated ways. Two views dominate: the hope of an eschatological transformation of the cosmos and the notion that an immortal soul escapes the body at death to enter the heavenly world.
quote: To quote from Dr. James Tabor, Chairman of Religious Studies at UNC:
quote: Originally, as I stated above, there was no "place of punishment" after death. Sheol was simply the grave...death itself.
quote: Jewish religious thought evolved to state rewards were given in the afterlife, and 'Sheol' became a place of eternal punishment for evil men.
quote: quote: "True religion evolves towards a greater understanding of truth." I got a nice chuckle out of this, thanks.
quote: "True religion evolves towards a greater understanding of truth."
quote: However, scientific experiments are performed using apparatus ad not senses.
quote: Any two members who can interbreed and produce viable (meaning they can then reproduce) offspring are the same species. Check.
quote: I would bet that this "species" from the artical is more closely related to me then say the Aborigine people of Australia.
quote: The majority of the Neandertal divergences overlap with those of the humans (Fig. 3), reflecting the fact that Neandertals fall inside the variation of present-day humans.
quote: slective breeding simply brings out genetic features that are already in the genome!…no mutations needed
quote: It's a proven scientific fact that mutations are harmful to an organism.