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Spotlight case concludes in music industry's favor

Arizona P2P case Atlantic v. Howell reached is conclusion last week (PDF), with a judge siding in favor of the RIAA after defendant Jeffrey Howell was found to have “willfully and intentionally destroyed evidence” essential to the case.

Arizona District Judge Neil V. Wake found Howell liable for $40,500 in statutory damages plus $350 in court costs, in addition to an order requiring him to destroy any copyright-infringing materials in his possession.

The case, which was closely watched by all sides over Wake’s interpretation of “making available” – as in, making music available for download by others instead of actually transferring any – helped trigger a massive shift in precedent away from the RIAA’s favor.

Indeed, Minnesota defendant Jammie Thomas has a chance at retrial for the $222,000 judgment entered against her, thanks to some of the findings in Atlantic v. Howell.

It is unclear what ripple effect Atlantic v. Howell will have in other cases examining the “making available” issue.

In his case, Howell said he never placed any music in his P2P client’s shared music folder, and that the music on his computer came from ripped CDs. He did, however, admit to installing the KaZaA P2P client.

The RIAA accused Howell of downloading 54 copyrighted songs in 2006. Later discovery found that he uninstalled KaZaA and formatted his hard drive, destroying evidence on at least four different occasions.

“Howell has repeatedly destroyed evidence central to the factual allegations in this case. He admits that he removed the KaZaA program from his computer and deleted the contents of the shared folder shortly after receiving notice of this lawsuit,” reads Wake’s order. “Although he testified that he created DVDs to backup his shared folder before he removed, the DVDs he produced in discovery are inaccurate and unworthy of belief. The DVDs he created are not true backups because … they do not accurately represent the contents of his shared folder at that time.”

“The recording companies’ forensic examination also shows that Howell reinstalled his computer’s operating system on January 2, 2007, a few weeks after he had received their requests for copies of various files on his computer. Howell also downloaded a program called Aevita Wipe & Delete in November, 2006 shortly after he filed his answer in this suit.2 Then, in the middle of the discovery period, he used that program to permanently delete all traces of certain files on his computer.”

Electronic Frontier Foundation lawyer Fred von Lohmann attributed part of Howell’s defeat to his lack of representation – he did not retain a lawyer for the case, although the EFF provided some assistance – noting that “he clearly wasn’t able to adequately articulate his side of the story.”

“He never had an adequate opportunity to explain what happened on his PC, said Lohmann in an interview with Ars Tecnica. “While the RIAA had forensics experts and lawyers to tell the story.... I think if Howell had an expert and lawyer to speak for him, he would have told a different story.”



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Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By FITCamaro on 9/2/2008 8:54:05 AM , Rating: 5
You know I'm all for people legitimately pirating stuff getting busted. You take the risk, it comes with accepting the consequences.

But in this case to me his guilt was not proven. They couldn't prove that the files existed. They merely suspected and said that because he wiped the hard drive, he must have been guilty.

I mean we let murderers go because the police found the key evidence somewhere where they didn't have a warrant to be. But we'll convict a pirate because we assume he's guilty?




RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By Ticholo on 9/2/2008 9:07:12 AM , Rating: 5
Are you saying a murderer is as bad as a pirate? Come on! Pirating software and media is way worse! A murderer may kill a few people but a pirate's actions affect millions, maybe billions, in ways that we can't even begin to comprehend! Therefore, this is conclusive evidence that a pirate is worse because I think he is. And if the RIAA or the MPAA want to quote me in court on this, they have my blessing.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By omnicronx on 9/2/08, Rating: -1
By chiadog on 9/5/2008 5:01:57 AM , Rating: 2
Your sarcasm detector needs some fresh batteries :o~


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By Mitch101 on 9/2/2008 9:58:33 AM , Rating: 2
What he is saying is the crime has only dates of actions that co-inside with the case. He is not saying the are equivalent.

Lets say you were convicted of a crime and all they had to go on was that you bought a shovel and a pair of gloves that week at home depot and some disposable bags from the super market and that you were home that weekend. Then you are convicted of being the criminal. They never find the evidence, fingerprints, any video they just key off that you were around and you had these items. Then the judge finds you guilty of the crime based solely on your actions/reactions.

I'm not saying he is innocent and his reactions are surely suspicious but you cant convict someone based on suspicion you need hard evidence to convict someone. I guess the judge missed that day in class. Nearly all of the RIAA's cases have no hard evidence just suspicion. When the evidence does come out the methods to collect them come into question.

I have to believe there are a lot of attorneys waiting on the sideline for the RIAA to royally screw up. The is more attorney money to be made in suing the RIAA than they could get out of individuals. In 2 years we will be flooded with infomercials of Have you been the target of an RIAA investigation? It time to call the law offices of Jacoby and Meyers and get paid.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By JustTom on 9/2/2008 10:16:07 AM , Rating: 3
This was a civil case, the judge did not convict anyone. Imposition of default judgements in cases where one party willingly destroys evidence is typical, legal, and has numerous precedents.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By Mathos on 9/2/2008 10:43:30 AM , Rating: 2
So, going by this judgement, since I've got 15 gigs of MP3's on my computer from ripped CD's. And Since I've had the likes of Kazaa installed on my computer in the past. Therefore if I need to format my hard drive to say, get rid of a virus that makes me guilty of copyright infringement and piracy, because I deleted evidence.

better yet, how bout if the RIAA contacted me and tried to sue me for having to use bit torrent to download a cracked version of Civ 4, a game which I already own, can even provide pictures of the box, because I downloaded a copy of it over a torrent program?


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By JustTom on 9/2/2008 11:09:08 AM , Rating: 4
If you format the HD AFTER you are instructed to keep it as evidence then, yes you should be found liable.

The RIAA wouldn't contact you about DLing Civ 4 since that is software and not music. The BSA might. And frankly providing pictures of the box is hardly proof of ownership.

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/bts/civ4bts...

It is really simple: If the trial judge tells you to keep evidence you keep it. If you destroy that evidence it is going to look really really bad.


By therealnickdanger on 9/2/2008 11:58:37 AM , Rating: 2
So it may be in your (you being anyone who downloads music) best interest to reformat (D-BAN) monthly after re-ripping music you download. If you're lucky, you will reformat before getting a letter, thus the incriminating evidence would be deleted prior to a court order. You could cite "system stability" as your reasoning for the monthly refresh.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By JustTom on 9/2/2008 12:22:46 PM , Rating: 5
Destroying incriminating evidence is a usually a good idea. Destroying incriminating evidence AFTER a judge has told you not to is a bad idea.


By maverick85wd on 9/2/2008 3:13:13 PM , Rating: 2
agreed... he should have changed his system time, deleted whatever needed deleting, and changed it back.


By Regs on 9/3/2008 9:42:33 AM , Rating: 2
He likely incriminated himself and the judge had no choice. He needed proper representation. The 220k he had to pay likely won't even cover the costs the RIAA took it to trial. So the judge likely let him off easy.


By therealnickdanger on 9/2/2008 10:58:55 AM , Rating: 2
So how did they even know which computer in his house had the data? Which files to look for? I'm not saying it's right, but why not claim that there is no such computer in his home? Could have been a Wi-Fi leecher!

How did Atlantic get access to his information without his consent?


By JustTom on 9/2/2008 12:32:51 PM , Rating: 2
Howell had Kazaa, with an open public folder. Atlantic has access to this folder as did everyone else who had Kazaa. He admitted to destroying the evidence despite the fact he was aware he needed to make this evidence available to Atlantic. Frankly, he screwed himself.
The judge in this case, Wake, is hardly a patsy of the RIAA. Early in the trial he came down with an important and far reaching decision concerning RIAA's contention that merely placing copyrighted material in a publicly accessible folder is tantamount to copyright infringement. Wake ruled that there is no copyright infringement simply because a user might place copyrighted material in a publicly accessible shared folder. If this decision stands and is affirmed it is a serious blow to RIAA and its ability to litigate against P2P users.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By FITCamaro on 9/2/2008 10:30:57 AM , Rating: 2
That's not what I said at all. My point is that murder IS a far more horrible crime yet we will let people off on technicalities on those trials. But we'll convict someone based on the assumption their guilty in a music pirating trial.

Please learn to read.


By JustTom on 9/2/2008 11:17:07 AM , Rating: 2
No one was convicted of anything. This was a civil case. The Judge made a default judgment because Howell deliberately destroyed evidence. This is pretty standard. The alternative is to allow people to destroy any evidence that would be prejudicial.

The problem with your analogy is that in the case of murderers getting off do to technicalities it is the party who committed the infraction of rules – the prosecution – that is being punished just as it is in this case. Howell broke the rules and he is being punished.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By foolsgambit11 on 9/2/2008 1:33:20 PM , Rating: 2
Haha! That reminds me of The Misunderstood Letters of Sharwood Lish. He writes sarcastic letters and everybody misunderstands them as genuine. In response to his ex-girlfriend telling him she hopes he "never die(s) in a horrible plane crash, too", he tells her, "Learn to read!"

Mr. Show, ftw.


By Ticholo on 9/3/2008 10:10:07 AM , Rating: 2
Wait, you understood what I wrote for what it was? Damn it! I'll have to add something about baby seal killer pirates or something in my next post to make it more believable.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By Strunf on 9/3/2008 3:33:45 AM , Rating: 2
That's how you think in liberal countries? Ya a pirate may affect thousands (millions at most) but last time I checked no one has ever died cause of piracy.

And the ones getting huge villas sure aren't the pirates...


By Ticholo on 9/3/2008 10:21:07 AM , Rating: 3
Therefore, the less you pirate, the bigger your villa!! Damn! I'll unplug my internet right now!

(BTW, I'm joking. And having to explain it at the same time so it's a double joke! But just to let you know I know that wasn't your point and I'm not making light of your comment. I respect you as my peer and as an intelligent human being ;) Though apparently not enough not to have to explain myself, so now it just sounds patronizing... Sorry :( )


By Ticholo on 9/3/2008 10:03:09 AM , Rating: 2
Wow... I feel a bit stupid having to reply to my own post, but I thought it was pretty clear I wasn't serious.
I thought the "Therefore, this is conclusive evidence that a pirate is worse because I think he is" part would give it away...


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By AlexWade on 9/2/2008 9:09:28 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, something ain't right when a murderer or rapists walks free because his constitutional rights were violated but a file sharer doesn't when his constitutional rights were violated.

But then, quite often in the eyes of the media, you are guilty until proven innocent. I speak of the infamous Duke LaCrosse trial where the players were falsely accused of rape. But when the evidence came out, those who protested and rallied and vilified the innocent never apologized or never retracted. Because of the media, they were guilty until proven innocent. Welcome to the new millennium.


By tmouse on 9/2/2008 9:41:51 AM , Rating: 2
Remember this is a civil suit there is no presumption of innocence, nor guilt. Its strictly he said / she said. There are 4 codes in the US, criminal, civil, tax and military. Each has different considerations of guilt or innocence and different burdens of proof.


By JustTom on 9/2/2008 10:17:54 AM , Rating: 2
Um, which one of his oonstitutional rights were vilated?


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By tmouse on 9/2/2008 9:17:29 AM , Rating: 2
If he was smart enough to have gotten a lawyer the first thing they would have told him was to NEVER do ANYTHING that can be even remotely interpreted as destroying evidence after you are served. He clearly and consistently destroyed evidence on not one but 4 occasions within weeks of receiving requests. The judge’s hands were pretty much tied. I think he had a sympathetic judge and he blew it.


By tmouse on 9/2/2008 9:25:49 AM , Rating: 2
I do not know if anyone read the decision but it seems the recording companies requested a forensic backup and he refused, as was his right. They went to the courts and got a court order and THEN he reformatted his drive. THAT was just plain stupid, it practically guaranteed his loss. He would have had a better chance following the "making available" defense since the judge in this case was at least willing to consider it. In a civil case its 51% wins and destroying evidence every time it is requested will result in a "you lose" every time.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By tastyratz on 9/2/2008 9:25:16 AM , Rating: 2
exactly.
[sarcasm]
But its not like the RIAA has EVER been incorrect with their accusations before
[/sarcasm]

Never know what else was on his computer - 54 songs could have been the least of his problems if he was caught loaded up with hundreds of songs/pirated software/movies/etc. Good chance blowing away his pc was the smartest possible move - malware would have been a very reasonable defense. If he was smart he would have sent a few thousand spam emails out and wiped it. The isp spam warning letter that saved him could have been called "Exibit B"


By phattyboombatty on 9/2/2008 11:01:20 AM , Rating: 2
His smartest move would have been to pay the RIAA's settlement demand at the onset of the case if he knew he was busted.


By Solandri on 9/2/2008 2:40:41 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I think too many people have gotten to thinking "RIAA is bad, their lawsuits are without merit". The RIAA lawsuits are bad because they're a shotgun approach, hitting both the guilty and the innocent, and many innocents are paying up because it's cheaper than going to court.

But that doesn't mean you should act like an innocent if you're guilty. (And yes I know this is a civil matter so "innocent" and "guilty" aren't the correct terms, but "liable" and "not liable" don't flow as well.)


By kelmon on 9/2/2008 9:34:46 AM , Rating: 2
Normally I'd agree with the sentiment of your comment but in this case "Perry Mason" willfully tried to destroy the evidence of his actions. Given this I have no sympathy and guilty sounds like a fair verdict to me. If they weren't guilty, why did they go to all the trouble of erasing their actions?


By JustTom on 9/2/2008 10:13:10 AM , Rating: 2
This was a civil case; the burden of proof is lower. And mot importantly he failed to comply with the court's instructions on discovery. He willfully destroyed evidence he was instructed to let Atlantic examine. The Judge was proper to rule against Howell.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By greenchasch on 9/2/2008 10:41:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I mean we let murderers go because the police found the key evidence somewhere where they didn't have a warrant to be.
Does no one in the country understand our legal system any more?

Murderers are tried under CRIMINAL law. A lawsuit is CIVIL law. The standards for evidence, proof, etc, are totally different.

Also your statement about murderers is not quite correct either. A murderer doesn't automatically "get let go" if police skipped a warrant when they found a piece of evidence. It just means that evidence can't be used. If they can be convicted on other evidence, they will. If not, they won't.

That's a very important restriction. Without it, police would never both with warrants. They'd just bust in, grab what they wanted, and apologize later.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By FITCamaro on 9/2/2008 12:10:01 PM , Rating: 2
I understand the difference.

And I'm not saying police shouldn't bother with warrants. Just there are times when the defense will try to say that evidence found in a car was unlawfully obtained because the warrant was only for the house. Or they invaded the person's privacy to get it. Or they didn't read the guy his rights when arresting him.

My brother is currently going through a trial for drunk driving. If he gets off it will be on a technicality. While I have no desire to see him go to jail, I do not approve of the means that will keep him out. But that's our legal system.


By JustTom on 9/2/2008 1:02:57 PM , Rating: 2
There is a good faith exception to the exclusionary rule. If a peace officer violates a defendants rights but was acting in good faith, he had reason to believe his actions were legal, the evidence is still allowed.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By Some1ne on 9/2/2008 1:12:42 PM , Rating: 2
Murder is a criminal matter, and thus the burden of proof is much higher than it is in a civil case such as copyright infringment.

Also, you are very wrong in your assertion that people pirating stuff deserve to get busted. Until copyright law is fixed so that it actually works cooperatively alongside the technology we have today (and in the future), piracy is the only sane option available to the average person. Right now, copyright law is impeding the development of technology on several fronts (it's led to anti-P2P initiatives, criminalizing modding and bot-making, and other restrictions). That's just stupid, and if anything, people have a duty to ignore the copyright laws until someone fixes them. Civil disobedience, and all that.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By JustTom on 9/2/2008 1:17:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Until copyright law is fixed so that it actually works cooperatively alongside the technology we have today (and in the future), piracy is the only sane option available to the average person.


So paying for your music, movies, and games is insane now?


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By BadAcid on 9/2/2008 2:31:48 PM , Rating: 2
Paying for something bloated with malicious DRMs, in game/movie product placement, and carbon copy music that all sounds the same with no real innovation since 1994. Yeah, I'd say that's pretty insane paying for something someone else practically paid for already.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By Solandri on 9/2/2008 2:49:47 PM , Rating: 2
I'm waiting for the inevitable case where someone who bought the record, 8-track, and the cassette tape version of an album, decided that he's already paid for it 3 times so he'll just download the digital version. It'll crystallize the whole buying/licensing ambiguity the industry has been exploiting to double, triple, and even quadruple charge people for the same product. The software industry for the most part doesn't have this ambiguity, and will sell you an upgrade version at a discount from a new version.


By Donkeyshins on 9/2/2008 10:41:21 PM , Rating: 2
That'll probably be me. I've got a lot of stuff on LP (Why? Because LP is superior to MP3 and personally I like the format better than CD.) but I've grabbed copies of several albums in MP3 format because I already own the original analog masters.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By FITCamaro on 9/2/2008 4:58:00 PM , Rating: 2
I'd say you're on some of that which constitutes your user name.

The DRM part you are right is ridiculous. The product placement, no. The carbon copy music, no. If you don't like the product placement or the music, don't buy it. It doesn't give you the right to steal it just because you don't like those things. Product placements help augment the cost of developing a game or movie. They hardly cover the entire thing.

And if the music is just a carbon copy, why do you pirate it and thus listen to it? You should be ignoring it completely. Your argument is one of the worst I've ever seen.

Yes DRM only really hurts legitimate consumers. But that doesn't give you the right to steal it. It should encourage you not to buy it. Stealing it only tells them you want more of it but you don't want to pay for it.


RE: Guilty until proven innocent apparently
By BadAcid on 9/2/2008 6:23:16 PM , Rating: 2
Who said anything about pirating or stealing? I said it's insane to pay for it. That doesn't imply I automatically download things illegally. I refused to see Hancock because in the huge "US BANK" building in THE COMMERCIAL FOR THE MOVIE. I regret having seen I, Robot because hoho the first 20 minutes is a long commercial for Converse shoes and Fed-Ex just to name 2 examples. Product placement can be done very tastefully, but it's still insulting to have to give money to see a commercial.
As for music, I'm still replaying the CDs from the early 90s, before DRMs, before "piracy" where you bootlegged songs off the radio with a cassette tape.

Don't put words (text) in my mouth (post).


By FITCamaro on 9/2/2008 10:07:09 PM , Rating: 1
I apologize. I thought you did the original post too where the guy said we should steal shit.


By JustTom on 9/7/2008 1:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
While it does not imply that you automatically download things illegally it does strongly imply it, considering the context of the thread.

From the rest of your post it appears you did in fact pay for your content. You just refuse to do so now do to DRM and lack of originality.

The RIAA fought taping of music too, I remember the whole home taping is killing music campaign. I don't think that cassette taping can be compared to digital ripping. It would take me ages and substantial cash to copy cassette tapes to reach the same number of people I can by posting a ripped CD online.


By Yawgm0th on 9/2/2008 3:10:45 PM , Rating: 2
This is a civil case, not a criminal one. The comparison does not apply. No one was convicted of anything.

In any case, the burden of proof is not entirely on the plaintiff. In civil court, you do not have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Whether that is reasonable is a different conversation entirely. For purposes of U.S. civil law as it is, it would appear that the RIAA proved its case sufficiently.

In this case, I do think a lawyer could have potentially helped him win the case. However, it does appear he made a very foolish attempt to hide evidence instead of contacting a lawyer. This is effectively a smoking gun, particularly in civil court. I don't know that representation would have been enough after his willful destruction of evidence.


Malware as a defense...
By Targon on 9/2/2008 8:32:05 AM , Rating: 2
The defendant clearly did not do his homework when it comes to the issues. Many P2P programs come with spyware/adware bundled with them, and since the removal of these things is not always easy, doing a full wipe of the machine and a reinstall of the OS may be the only solution. He could also say that he had the Sony rootkit installed on his machine, and not being very good, was told by friends to wipe the machine and re-install.

Going out and buying a program to wipe the hard drive is the last thing anyone with any intelligence would do in a case like this. Saying that Windows was messed up due to the P2P software on the other hand might work.




RE: Malware as a defense...
By dickeywang on 9/2/2008 8:37:18 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, there are a lot of programs to wipe the HDD. If I remember correctly, Hitachi and Western Digital even provide free softwares for wiping your HDD.


RE: Malware as a defense...
By omnicronx on 9/2/2008 9:52:50 AM , Rating: 2
Still wont save you, unless you are using hardcore commercial software, forensic investigators will have a high chance of being able to prove that you wiped the HD, and which programs yo used to do so.

Personally I would have claimed HD failure the second I got the notice in the mail ;) Just replace the HD, set your bios back a month and voila!! Not that this would save you either, but if I was going to try and get rid of evidence, merely formatting the drive a few times is not the way to go.


By StevoLincolnite on 9/2/2008 1:19:17 PM , Rating: 2
Depends if they performed a Conditional or an Un-Conditional format, to whether the data could be reclaimed or not.


RE: Malware as a defense...
By Targon on 9/2/2008 2:43:25 PM , Rating: 2
In many cases though, there are valid/justified reasons to reformat or reinstall MS Windows. If the defendant in this case was too stupid to even try using those reasons to justify what he did, he deserved to lose.


RE: Malware as a defense...
By tmouse on 9/2/2008 9:35:21 AM , Rating: 2
Yes but remember there is NO "reasonable doubt" in civil cases. Both sides are considered equals, so 51% is enough. Multiple "accidents" would not fool anyone. The papers specifically say you MUST take EVERY precaution to ensure evidence is not destroyed. The burden is on the one being sued. Lawyers will tell you to have a forensic backup made or remove the drive to keep it safe. Otherwise its a strike against you and you have to convince the judge why you did not follow the courts order in the summons.


RE: Malware as a defense...
By JustTom on 9/2/2008 10:25:05 AM , Rating: 2
Using malware as an excuse to wipe your HD AFTER a Judge has ordered you to make said HD available to Atlantic likely would have resulted in the same decision.

He did in fact wipe the HD and reinstall windows. He always used the utility Aevita Wipe and Delete to make any file references unrecoverable. ANd after using Wipe and Delete he deleted the logfile that listed those files Wipe and Delete deleted


No Body, No Gun, No Crime....
By Tegrat on 9/2/2008 9:22:11 AM , Rating: 2
No Body, No Gun, No Crime.... = Guilty? WTF. My favorite line is the one about "the DVD backups did not truly represent the state of the shared folders at that time....." Who the F\_/K are they to tell him what he is supposed to have backed up? I know when I do a back up, I only back up what "I" feel to be important to "Me".




RE: No Body, No Gun, No Crime....
By JustTom on 9/2/2008 10:29:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
No Body, No Gun, No Crime....


Yeah, and Reiser was innocent too...

http://www.dailytech.com/Jury+Finds+ReiserFS+Creat...


RE: No Body, No Gun, No Crime....
By greenchasch on 9/2/2008 10:46:00 AM , Rating: 4
Look, what's hard to understand here? The court served him with an ORDER to make certain evidence available. HE then destroyed that evidence. The guy deserves what he got.

It's not like he's being punished for just formatting his drive at some random point in time.


RE: No Body, No Gun, No Crime....
By jay401 on 9/2/2008 12:55:50 PM , Rating: 2
i have to wonder what would have happened if he'd just used Eraser to remove the file. No record of it would remain, assuming he also removed any traces in the registry and his music-playing software.


RE: No Body, No Gun, No Crime....
By Tegrat on 9/2/2008 2:08:37 PM , Rating: 2
I fully understand...

"Arizona District Judge Neil V. Wake found Howell liable for $40,500 in statutory damages plus $350 in court costs, in addition to an order requiring him to destroy any copyright-infringing materials in his possession ."

Do you?


That's scary
By dickeywang on 9/2/2008 8:34:31 AM , Rating: 2
So now re-install operating system could also be considered as an "evidence" on the court?




RE: That's scary
By Ticholo on 9/2/2008 9:27:59 AM , Rating: 2
You have to admit the guy's actions and the time line may raise suspicion. I think that the EFF lawyer's comments are key to understanding why the suspicion was escalated to "almost fact".
I think it was recently that I read an article or something about how experts presented in court as corroborators are often anything but experts and yet their findings or opinions are taken to be as important as facts or can support weak accusations, sometimes on their word alone.
And, in my opinion, pitting experts against experts is hardly any good for clarifying anything. But of course that's what court cases are most often about :)


RE: That's scary
By Solandri on 9/2/2008 3:00:04 PM , Rating: 2
If the court tells you not to reformat and reinstall, and you do, then yes it can be considered evidence.

Folks, this is not new. They're not singling out filesharesr for this treatment. This is the way our courts have worked for centuries. If you're ordered by the court to preserve evidence, and you destroy that evidence, the court can and usually does decide that your actions are just as much evidence of your guilt as the original evidence might have been. It has to be this way or everyone who ever had a lawsuit filed against them would immediately start destroying everything.


RE: That's scary
By 16nm on 9/2/2008 5:04:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So now re-install operating system could also be considered as an "evidence" on the court?

From the article: The recording companies’ forensic examination also shows that Howell reinstalled his computer’s operating system on January 2, 2007, a few weeks after he had received their requests for copies of various files on his computer.

He didn't have the sense to change the system date/time on his computer before re-installing his operating system. The date's the problem, not the re-install.


For the clueless...
By Beenthere on 9/2/08, Rating: 0
RE: For the clueless...
By bendrx on 9/2/2008 5:38:14 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah right on fill the prisons with these non violent offenders.Maybe one day you will be fortunate enough to have someone close to you raped and murdered or even yourself because law enforcement was more concentrated on these hardened criminals sitting at their pc.


RE: For the clueless...
By cloh2083 on 9/2/2008 9:47:37 PM , Rating: 2
Probably one of the most sensible threads I've seen. The fundamental problem is with the profits the media companies rip off the common good (even with piracy). The existence of pirates is a crime - fair enough. But it should be those who actively rip media and make them available who should be tried - everyone else is simply a consumer. Anyone who dare says otherwise is a hypocrite (let us have a look at your HDD shall we?). If consumers are now tagged as 'pirates' also, you will have to fine and imprison over 90% of the population who have access to the PC and Internet!

The courts are meant to provide justice and to protect the common good, not make more money for the rich. In the meantime, with all this bias against the consumers, what is left of taxpayers' money that get used to protect us against real threats like murderers, rapists, lying-CEOs, and gun toters?


RE: For the clueless...
By bendrx on 9/2/2008 10:08:36 PM , Rating: 2
Im still trying to figure out this intellectual property thing.Only so many ways the english or any other for that matter language can be arranged.On day anything you say can be someone elses "intellectual property".You cant write that, you cant say that.And where the hell they get off calling themselves artists.Professional if you expect to be paid.And everyone thought the goverment wanted to control us.If i have my stereo blasting you better not listen,its not released yet.Pirates profit....Fans listen and watch.End of rant.


RE: For the clueless...
By Mathos on 9/3/2008 1:33:28 AM , Rating: 2
Don't throw the gun toting thing in there. What does having a legally owned gun have to do with being a criminal? The problem with the anti guns thing is more than most people understand. All gun laws do, is make it illegal for the law abiding citizen to own weapons. Doesn't matter how many guns laws you institute, criminals will still be able to get ahold of guns regardless, through their normal illegal and shady means. So instead they take guns away from those that need to defend themselves and do nothing to stop criminals.

Now to DRM, it's the same exact thing. It does nothing to stop pirates, since they'll find a way around it anyway. And lately it's been more intrusive to the legitimate user than anything. Anti piracy countermeasures have always been around, even back in the days of the early c64 and apple floppy disk games.

Now as far as music goes there are some issues with this whole riaa crusade. 1) it's legal under copyright law to make a digital copy of music you've paid for as back ups. Thus there is nothing wrong with ripping music from a cd to your HDD or mp3 player. This part of the law was worded due to the fact that many forms of recorded media degrade over time. Yes that includes CD's, DVD's, and older magnetic tape based cassettes such as 8 track the regular small cassette tape, and also VHS tapes. The same stands for computer software.

What's illegal under copyright law is distributing copies of a product you didn't create. Such as taking said MP3's or CD backups and selling of or giving out copies to friends. Now how many here have copied a cassette, DVD, CD and given it to a friend? Other such things would be public performance and imitation of said ware without express permission from the original creators. There are more things of course.


By spuddyt on 9/2/2008 1:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
is call in sick to work, chuck your computer down the stairs a few times, making sure the HDD isn't the same shape it was before, and then chuck the whole lot in the tip, later claiming it was broken by you accidently dropping it, and you couldn't see a point in keeping it?
legal people, would it be possible to proove anything then?




By Guttersnipe on 9/2/2008 6:53:26 PM , Rating: 2
those kind of judgments against normal people are insane. you could beat someone to a pulp and be charged with less. someday they are going to have someone snap and its going to turn ugly.




Easy way to avoid this
By soloman02 on 9/2/2008 7:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
If you want to pirate stuff there is a simple solution.

Buy two hard drives of the same size. Format both and put the applications you normally use on both (except file sharing software). Then you store one of the hard drives while using the other for file sharing. Then when you are served, switch the hard drives and either dispose of the one with infringing material or hide it somewhere it won't be found. The when the RIAA brings you to court feign ignorance since there is no evidence on your HD.

It would be more believable if you used the other HD from time to time.

Of course, those smart enough to think of the above method aren't stupid enough to share files.

Even the above method isn't foolproof though.




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