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Americans just aren't lining up to purchase GM's vision for electric vehicles

It appears that General Motors just can’t catch a break with the Chevrolet Volt. The vehicle is capable of driving around 35 miles on battery power alone, but can also fallback to its gasoline engine/generator to travel up to an additional 372 miles (something that can’t be said for pure electric vehicles like the Ford Focus Electric or Nissan Leaf).
 
The vehicle has come under attack for its relatively high price tag, reliance on a $7,500 federal tax credit to make its price more palatable, missed sales forecasts, and potential for battery fires.


The Chevrolet Volt can travel roughly 35 miles with a fully charged battery before the gas engine kicks in [Source: GM]
 
However, positive news for the Volt started to trickle out over the past few weeks. Production was restarted on February 6 after a holiday hiatus, and the Volt outsold the Nissan Leaf by a 2-to-1 margin in February with sales of 1,023 units versus 478. But even those bright spots aren’t enough to overcome the blunt reality: Americans just aren’t [currently] interested in electric vehicles.
 
I. GM announces yet another Volt production shutdown
GM announced on Friday that it is shutting down Volt production again starting March 19. This lull in production will last for five weeks. GM decided to take this step of cutting back production instead of putting more money on the hood to get customers to drive away from the dealership with a new Volt.
 
“This move is to keep proper inventory levels,” said GM spokesman Chris Lee.


GM's original sales target of 45,000 Volts for 2012 is simply unobtainable [Source: GM]
 
The Chevrolet Volt failed to meet GM’s sales forecasts of 10,000 units for 2011 (the year’s tally was just 7,761). Likewise, with January sales of 676 units and February’s total of 1,023, GM is likely to come nowhere close to meeting the original second-year sales goal of 45,000 units in the United States.
 
II. Gasoline alternatives cost half as much as a Volt
Many consumers are finding it hard to make a case for the Volt, which costs $39,995 before any tax credits are applied. Most other mainstream gasoline-engine compacts start in the $16,000 to $17,000 range (with most transaction prices hovering around $20,000) which puts Volt is clearly out of step with what many Americans are willing to pay for a vehicle of its size.
 
In addition, many compact sedans are touting city fuel efficiency ratings approaching 30mpg in the city and highway ratings of 40mpg or more. Even the standard Toyota Prius, which is rated at 50mpg combined, undercuts the Volt with a base MSRP of $24,000. The smaller Prius c is even cheaper with a base MSRP of $19,710.
 
And one other downside that isn’t often mentioned with the Volt is that it can only seat four passengers instead of five like its more traditional competition. The Volt’s center-mounted battery pack nixes the center-rear seat position that most people take for granted.


The Volt is strictly a four-seater thanks to its center-mounted battery pack [Source: GM]
 
III. GM looks to Envia Systems to cut Volt costs
GM needs to get the price of the Volt’s battery pack down in order to make it more palatable for consumers. GM has invested in Envia Systems, which claims to have developed a battery cell with an energy density of 400 watt-hours per kilogram. With a price of about $125 per kilowatt-hour, Envia claims that an EV with a driving range of 300 miles would cost just $20,000.




[Source: Envia Systems]
 
At that price point, EVs start to make a lot more sense to potential buyers and would help drive adoption. The batteries are scheduled to hit the market by 2015, which should be just in time to power the second generation Volt. However, it likely won’t be soon enough to help President Obama reach his goal of having one million EV’s on American roads by 2015.
 
Last week, President Obama made headlines when he said that he’d purchase a Chevy Volt when he leaves office.

Source: Bloomberg



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Something more to the story...
By Masospaghetti on 3/5/2012 12:52:19 AM , Rating: 5
A few observations...First, that GM's PR machine is atrocious and they have no idea how to sell this car, and second, there's something more to the story since there are still many markets that have zero access to Volts at dealerships. I just checked Chevy.com and zero Volts are available in my area (Charlotte, NC). I've gotten similar feedback from other markets, especially in Canada. How can a car be sold if it's not exposed to consumers?




RE: Something more to the story...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/5/2012 1:05:38 AM , Rating: 2
Try Raleigh (27603), there are 20+ in this area. Hendrick Chevy in Cary has 8 according to the dealer locator.


RE: Something more to the story...
By GulWestfale on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: Something more to the story...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/5/2012 8:15:03 AM , Rating: 3
The Prius is for sissies and hippies? Come on now. Toyota sold 136,000 of them last year, so it's hardly a hippy niche. GM has ample opportunity to take some market share here, but they're missing the mark.

We were looking at getting my wife a 2012 Hyundai Elantra GLS with preferred package to replace her Civic, but I think we'll be looking at the Prius c for roughy the same price. She commutes mostly in the city, and the 53mpg city rating is pretty impressive.

As for actual car enthusiasts, we are a relative minority in the overall U.S. market. Just look at the top selling cars for 2011 (Camry, Accord, Malibu, Altima, Sonata, Civic, Corolla... yawn... snore...)

Not that there's anything wrong with that...


RE: Something more to the story...
By GulWestfale on 3/5/12, Rating: -1
RE: Something more to the story...
By lelias2k on 3/5/2012 8:39:31 AM , Rating: 3
First of all, enthusiasts are rarely the main focus of a company. Look at Apple: they are bashed by most enthusiasts, but they are a commercial success. Look at Toyota and tell me which cars they sell appeal to enthusiasts? But hey, they are only the biggest auto maker in the world.

But what every article about the Volt misses on is the fact that there is no comparison between it and the Prius, or any other compact car for that matter. Go drive one. The experience of driving an electric car is completely different than an ICE-equipped one.

The silence and the torque alone are enough to lure people to it.

I used to work for a Chevy dealership, and had a test-drive route that included a nice hill on the highway to put engines to the test. Going up on it on a Cruze you could see the struggle to reach 75. A Prius would be screaming so loud I just wanted to stop and give my ears a break. The Volt would quietly reach 85 on the same stretch. People would be like: "whoa, I'm doing 85 and didn't even noticed!"

Is it worth the money? Well, that's for people to decide, and it is usually complicated due to their buying power. But is it comparable to a compact car? Absolutely not.

Now, is it a perfect car? Not at all, but show me one that is.


RE: Something more to the story...
By rich876 on 3/5/2012 9:09:32 AM , Rating: 2
Toyota is the third largest auto maker in the world. You say they are the biggest and they are not.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Paj on 3/6/2012 7:18:48 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Something more to the story...
By Spuke on 3/5/2012 2:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
I REALLY wish the Volt had a bit longer all battery range (like double). It might make sense at its current price point to me.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Jedi2155 on 3/5/2012 9:41:10 AM , Rating: 2
I never thought I would actually buy an American car, but the Volt swayed me over. I'm an engineer-hippie, concerned for the world, but practical. There simply is no other vehicle like the Volt currently available.

Performance, features, and green. A combination I always look for in my vehicle.


RE: Something more to the story...
By GulWestfale on 3/5/12, Rating: -1
RE: Something more to the story...
RE: Something more to the story...
By Keeir on 3/5/2012 2:24:36 PM , Rating: 1
They have an axe to grind in that article

quote:
And, in any given lifetime, there’s no way to make a payback pencil out. Based on EPA combined-mileage ratings, $4 per gallon for gas, and $0.112 per kWh for electricity, the savings attributable to driving the Volt 100,000 miles solely on electricity over the gas-powered Cruze is only $8089.


Errr.. that sentence doesn't even make sense. A base Volt costs around 12,000 more than a base ECO Manual model. And in 100,000 miles they found more than 8,000 savings. Wouldn't that suggest a break even point between 150,000-200,000 miles? Since the average car currently on the road is 10 years old with ~150,000 miles on the odometer, that seems reasonable to me.

quote:
Plugging in to recharge can be a hassle because this cart is ahead of the infrastructural horse. During an overnight stay on the shores of Lake Superior, we begged to buy 120-volt electricity at four locations before finding an outlet suitable for recharging the Volt.


Isn't that the main point of the Volt? Not having to beg at all?

quote:
the Volt finished second to the Cruze in handling and low-speed acceleration tests


Yet!

quote:
Thanks to a center of gravity 1.5 inches lower than that of the Cruze (credit the low-slung battery pack), the Volt rounds bends on a more even keel


quote:
The Volt stopped seven feet shorter from 70 mph than the Cruze, and while its brake pedal—commanding both friction and regenerative speed reduction—provided little feedback, at least it didn’t feel like stepping on a ripe tomato the way the Cruze’s did.


So in conclusion, the Volt turned better and stopped better. I was slower to 60 by a 0.4second interval. So... not really much overall difference? Confused...

quote:
Second-row passengers have three things to gripe about: no HVAC vents (the same applies to the Cruze), the near impossibility of transferring from side to side, and the hatch glass (masked with a sun screen) over their heads.


1.) Fair Point
2.) Errr... one sentence ago you were talking about having only 2 seats. Last I checked, people don't switch side to side once there are 4 in car...
3.) Errr... people buy special sunroofs for rear seat passengers all the time. Not sure this is a "negative"

Overall though this is the biggest problem with the article. It says it ran 1,000 miles. But ~900 of them were interstate driving. Sure, the ECO is going to seem great if you drive primarly its strength and the opponents weakness. Why? They drove the Manual ECO. You know, the car that 95% of American's won't even consider.

Here are some good points to consider.

City MPG

Chevy Cruze Eco 20 MPG - 0.20 USD/Mile
Volt 122 MPGe - 0.03 USD/Mile

and

quote:
Ultimately, it wasn’t gas mileage that convinced us that the Cruze Eco is top dog here. When vital cockpit furnishings such as the clutch pedal and the hand-operated parking brake go missing—as they do in the Volt—we suffer sensory-deprivation anxiety.


Thier self identified #1 reason for perfering the ECO? The Manual. Again, most US consumers aren't going to choose the ECO Manual. Its the 2 MPG less EPA ECO Automatic that they are going to choose.

Plus they don't really address the drastic feature gap between the two cars. The Volt they are testing comes with Navigation, Years of OnStar, etc, etc, etc. Now, these features might be work nothing to a perspective consumer, but its hard to say they should be viewed as valueless when giving a fair evaluation.

They overall thrust of that article

"We don't need electric. A good driver driving a Manual on the Highway with a Turbo can do nearly as well economically provided they don't want any fancy features."


RE: Something more to the story...
By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: Something more to the story...
By Keeir on 3/5/2012 4:06:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I call BS on that. Prove it. Funny how you reject offhand any link or source that doesn't paint the Volt in a favorable light. Why are you such an unabashed advocate for this vehicle?


Read the rest of the post. Reading Comprehension.

I examine several sentences given in the article that were either

A. Poorly Written
B. Unsupported
C. Directly contrary to the Misson statement of the Volt
D. Of Little Value to the overall market.

For instance, the #1 reason to place the ECO first? The Manual. Yet less than 6% of cars are sold with manual transmissions.

http://autos.aol.com/article/stick-shift-love-affa...

Why not use the Cruze ECO Automatic instead? I think we'll have more success going to electric than getting more than 50% of drivers to accept manuals.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: Something more to the story...
By Spuke on 3/5/2012 5:50:07 PM , Rating: 2
Rec has got a point here. There's no conspiracy. Car and Drivers biases are well known. Fact is that people simply don't want EV's right now. Too expensive and too limited in their use. Quite frankly, I find that perfectly understandable given that Americans like their vehicles to be multipurpose. Which is why pickup trucks remain the most sold vehicle for the past 30 years straight uninterrupted regardless of fuel prices. EV's may one day have their day in the sun but it isn't now.


RE: Something more to the story...
By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 4:42:00 PM , Rating: 2
You got problems when you have me and the conservatives arguing against you but let me help with the two issues you don't seem to understand:

quote:
2.) Errr... one sentence ago you were talking about having only 2 seats. Last I checked, people don't switch side to side once there are 4 in car...

You've stopped next to a curb to load/unload passengers from your car. In a normal car every passenger can get in/out from the curb side. In the Volt, one passenger must get in/out from the driver side which may not be safe or desirable.

quote:

3.) Errr... people buy special sunroofs for rear seat passengers all the time. Not sure this is a "negative"

You can close the sunroof and pull a shade over it. It's not safe to do the same over your rear window.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Spuke on 3/5/2012 5:52:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You got problems when you have me and the conservatives arguing against you
I would say so. LOL!


RE: Something more to the story...
By PlainAndSimple on 3/6/2012 5:05:07 PM , Rating: 1
Sales are down because of right-wing Faux news, threatcore, dailycaller, etc, with their spiked headlines in any way possible to suppress sales.

Have a nice day!


By Reclaimer77 on 3/6/2012 7:55:59 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously doubt anyone who was on-board with buying a Volt was actually watching Fox News.

And how one news network can be blamed for nation wide sales problems...riiiight.


By DockScience on 3/7/2012 7:07:58 PM , Rating: 3
And sales for the Nissan Leaf are down because of that too?

Let me guess, you think conservatives are paranoid.
Oh the irony.


RE: Something more to the story...
By DockScience on 3/7/2012 6:11:58 PM , Rating: 2
$19,800 MSRP Cruze Eco is 42mpg highway, 37 combined.
In 100,000 miles, the Eco will burn 2700 gallons of gas.

The Volt can go 35 miles on electric before its 36 mpg gas engine kicks in. So essentially, the Volt can save a maximum of 3.5 quarts of gas per DAY over the Eco.

You are not paying $20,000 up front extra and getting that back at less than 1 gal per day.


By Dan Banana on 3/7/2012 7:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
Try again, the combined EPA MPG rating of the 2012 Cruze Eco is 31 or 33 depending on the transmission.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov


By zephyrprime on 3/5/2012 10:43:21 AM , Rating: 2
Enthusiasts mean nothing since they represent such a small percentage of the market as to be insignificant. The market approach taken by the volt design was to sell it to the broad market. Obviously what the volt has shown is that the broad market has no interest in the Volt. What the volt and prius has proven is that the only market for green cars is the hippie and sissy market. And those guys are too fashion concious to buy something form a stodgy company like GM. The biggest selling green car possible would probably be if it was sold by Apple, lol! Failing that, a quirky car from an quirky brand like Scion would probably be the best seller.


RE: Something more to the story...
By bupkus on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: Something more to the story...
By ShaolinSoccer on 3/5/2012 8:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
they simply haven't got the same rep for quality and engineering that the japanese have


and yet, the Volt won North American Car of The Year award last year and European Car of The Year for 2012.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/2012 9:23:47 PM , Rating: 1
You know that's just some magazines opinion right? It's not the automotive equivalent of the Nobel Peace Prize or something.

As far as the North American awards panels, they're a bunch of known Detroit homers. Remeber the Saturn Aura? Neither do I, but it beat out two much better vehicles simply because it was hometown GM. The year before they gave the "car of the year" to the Ford Fusion. Looking at the field of cars competing against the Fusion, it's REALLY hard to come up with a legitimate reason to claim the Fusion was the best in the field, other than the fact that it's another Detroit fan favorite.

And, the big obvious one, these awards are given out at the DETROIT AUTO SHOW.


By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 10:18:18 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, the true worth of a car is what the market thinks it is, not some automotive journalist. GM cars suffer badly in terms of resale value due to the public perception that it's not as good quality as a Toyota.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Taft12 on 3/5/2012 8:11:51 AM , Rating: 2
But Brandon, you just comfirmed there *IS* something fishy going on here. Supposedly no demand, but customers who want one are told there's none available for them. Is GM trying to play some sort of game? Free PR? Angling for further gov't subsidy?


By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/5/2012 8:24:49 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think there's anything fishy going on here... if someone in Charlotte wanted a Prius bad enough, they'd just drive to Raleigh to get it... it's only a two and a half hour drive (I know, I drive that route quite often).

And on second thought, I don't know where Masospaghetti was searching, but I went to Chevy.com plugged in a Charlotte zip code (28201) and there are 27 Volts within a 50-mile radius:

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9000/volti.jpg


RE: Something more to the story...
By Samus on 3/5/2012 3:02:02 PM , Rating: 2
I think that's a good point about dealership/market availability. GM's always had bad luck with vehicle marketing (which is why they've axed half their nameplates in the last decade.) They were slow to market European cars from Voxhaul and Holden in the United States, something Ford has been doing quite well since the 90's (Escort/Focus.) Some of their cars are so poorly marketted, people thought they were a joke (Chevy Nova) or imported (Saturn) or just embarassing to drive (that Pontiac 'SUV' I won't be mentioning by name.)

But the real problem with the Volt is the press. It is absolutely worth $32,500 if you are already considering a Toyota Prius with premium kit, because THAT will cost you nearly $30,000.

It's hard to keep in mind the Volt is a luxury car when GM is marketing it as a Chevy compact, but it is a luxury car. It has virtually no options, it comes with premium everything. The only packages are different wheels, aluminum trim, a backup camera (a ridiculous consideration for a 177" long compact car) and obviously a GPS/Onstar upgrade.

The fact is no vehicles in its class come with standard premium leather, standard climate control, standard heater/power seats, standard HID headlights, etc. Many of these options weren't even offered on the Prius until GM upped the game.

I feel the car is appropriately priced, AFTER tax credit. And that's where I have serious reservations recommending one, even to my own family. I believe in social service programs and government financial aid to those that need it, but anyone who needs government assistance shouldn't be buying a luxury car.


RE: Something more to the story...
By MonkeyPaw on 3/5/2012 7:32:34 AM , Rating: 2
The terrible economy can't help either. There are many other places where an available $30k could go. I think most people would rather go with a nice hybrid for that price and "just" get 40MPG. That, or maybe auto buyers are less adventurous than technology folks and know better than to be an early adopter! :p


RE: Something more to the story...
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 9:25:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The terrible economy can't help either. There are many other places where an available $30k could go.

Nissan is listening! They're reintroducing "Datsun" brand in Russia and India and selling stripped down, light weight vehicles in the $6000 price range. I would imagine if this goes over as well as they think it will, we could see some of these lack-luster, but very affordable vehicles making a comeback in the U.S. I, personally, restored a $1200 '79 280Z.... and will drive it until the world is officially crude dry! That car turns more heads than the Volt ever will and I saved over $29k to have it.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 9:27:56 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Something more to the story...
By Spuke on 3/5/2012 3:08:09 PM , Rating: 2
Those will NEVER come here. Neither of those countries have the same safety and emissions regulations that we have. With the AVERAGE price of a car sold in the US costing $30,000, you will NEVER see a $6000 car. Automakers have a difficult time selling cars in the $10k to $20k range as is.


RE: Something more to the story...
By TSS on 3/5/2012 9:31:30 AM , Rating: 2
There's more to it then that as well. I don't see the opel ampera mentioned anywhere, the europian knock off of the volt? Even though they did shut production of that down as well.

http://www.opel.com/content/dam/Opel/OpelCorporate...

scroll down to section 4 sales figures and it says the 2011 figures for the ampera are just 324. That would fit for the sales figures i looked up for here in holland, which said just 9 for 2011.

Granted, the car costs 45,000 euro's (currently ~$59,000, and that's actually with less taxes as it also enjoys tax breaks here in holland)But still i would've expected it to sell better over here, with higher gas prices and all.

Guess it simply does not make sense at that price. Even with gas prices at record highs. Currently 1,813 Euro95, 1,499 diesel, 0,906 LPG national average. For gas, that means $9 a gallon. If the euro was worth as much as it was in july 2008 vs the dollar it would be $10,90 a gallon.


By Jedi2155 on 3/5/2012 10:08:23 AM , Rating: 2
The shut down production very early for the Opel Ampera so very few drivers got it before it was delayed due to the battery fire scare. I've read that there are actually over 6000 orders for the Ampera already although I'm wondering why they still had to shut down the line if there was that much demand in Europe.


RE: Something more to the story...
By Keeir on 3/5/2012 2:28:26 PM , Rating: 2
Sigh.

quote:
Deliveries of the Opel Ampera to dealerships began in Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland in December 2011.


Those are the results for 1 partial month.

Lets see what it does in 2012 eh?


By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/2012 4:01:17 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
First, that GM's PR machine is atrocious and they have no idea how to sell this car


There IS no way to sell this vehicle at those numbers and that price. GM is the worlds largest automaker apparently, so they obviously know how to sell vehicles. Even if GM's PR machine is inept, dealerships are obvious experts in selling vehicles, and they can't seem to move the Volt. Instead of calling people like me loons, look at the sheer mountain of evidence here that points to the contrary!

quote:
there are still many markets that have zero access to Volts at dealerships.


That's because dealerships have been sending the Volt back to GM! They don't want them in their showrooms. Nobody is buying them. Every Volt on the lot is a loss of profits for the dealership if they aren't going to be sold.

There's been a virtual mini-mutiny by dealerships who flat out are tired of being stuck with Volt's who wont sell, but are being pressured by GM to somehow make a loser a winner. GM is somehow convinced there's been so much demand that they haven't been able to satisfy consumer interests with enough production. Which is ludicrous. Or as someone in the biz puts it:

"Thinking we need six more Volts is just crazy," Brett Hedrick, dealer principal at Hedrick's Chevrolet in Clovis, Calif., told Automotive News. "We've never sold more than two in a month."

quote:
How can a car be sold if it's not exposed to consumers?


The only way someone hasn't been exposed to a Volt yet is if they've been living under a rock for the past 3 years. No car in the history of cars, has been advertised, mentioned, or more hyped than the Volt.

Rule #1 of any business: Listen to the freaking customer. When are you people going to listen to the consumer instead of coming up with ways why they should buy something they don't want?


By jimbojimbo on 3/6/2012 9:12:22 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly! I was looking for a new car last June and considered a Volt since you do get a lot of features for that high price but the only dealerships taking orders for it in the Chicagoland area had a 6 month wait! Hell no I wasn't going to wait 6 months so I got a Mazda.


GM VOLT-Fail
By owlafaye on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By rzrshrp on 3/5/2012 7:20:02 AM , Rating: 3
Which technology do you think is a dead-end? How the gas engine supplements the battery? It's great for the times if only the price were right. Aside from the cost issues which maybe GM will work on, I don't understand why this tech is any more doomed than the Prius C. The Volt configuration is for those that want to be able to do 95% of their driving all electric but still have gas capabilities for longer trips without having to use a secondary car. It also doesn't offend the people very concerned about their car's appearance. Nothing else fits that niche.


RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By rich876 on 3/5/2012 9:36:45 AM , Rating: 3
The Toyota Prius has reached it's technology peak which is very mechanically limited in the first place. Unless a complete new design comes out, it has no more room to improve. It does not have the capability to haul a load and a driver has to baby it to get good gas mileage. Being a mechanical engineer, I understand how they both work. The Voltec is a much superior system and has the capabilities that the Prius lacks. In time you will see the Voltec system in trucks, which is something you'll never see with the Hybrid Synergy Drive. The Voltec technology is by far a much better system and has lots more potentials.


RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 9:59:30 AM , Rating: 2
What? They just released a plug-in Prius. The technology is nowhere near mature or at the end of its life cycle. It's just beginning. The lighter, cheaper batteries just around the corner will be large leaps forward for hybrids like the Prius.


RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By Keeir on 3/5/2012 3:02:18 PM , Rating: 2
The Plug-in Prius is a good example...

It can't even complete the EPA testing cycles on electric power.

For some reason or other, Toyota has limited its HSD to ~25-30 hp electric. Ford is not really much different, though I estimate the range slightly different at 27-33. Since they both use much higher hp capable motors, I am unsure why they are limiting the type of HP the motors will put out...

Lighter and cheaper batteries won't help nearly as much. Sure, losing like a 100 lbs and 500 dollars will help, but not the leaps and bounds 400 lbs and 5000 dollars off the long-range PHEVs.


RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 4:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Plug-in Prius is a good example... It can't even complete the EPA testing cycles on electric power.


The Toyota Prius is a hybrid car that makes no pretense at being a full electric. Why should it complete its test cycle on only electric power?


RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By Keeir on 3/8/2012 11:42:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Toyota Prius is a hybrid car that makes no pretense at being a full electric. Why should it complete its test cycle on only electric power?


Plug-in cars need to have some certainity on electric range. Not being able to complete the EPA testing cycles gives me very low confidence that I could every drive the Plug-in Prius without using gasoline. Again. plug-in Prius not the normal Prius


RE: GM VOLT-Fail
By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 11:29:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The gasoline generator can't be any smaller and maintain 60 mph in gas mode...nor will a smaller gas engine generate enough power to drive it electrically at 60 mph for very long...about near to what the VOLT suffers now...it is simply a dead end idea.

It only takes 20-30 hp to travel at highway speeds, factor in gradients and 50-60hp is sufficient, which can be obtained from a tiny and efficient gas engine like the two-cylinder fiat multiair.


Don't reinvent the wheel.
By Jeff7181 on 3/5/2012 10:27:39 AM , Rating: 2
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's a reason diesel-electric trains exist and gasoline-electric trains don't. Bring the same technology to automobiles and you'll end up with a 600cc turbo diesel running at 1800 RPM to keep your battery charged while you drive 60-70 mph down the road.




RE: Don't reinvent the wheel.
By Jeff7181 on 3/5/2012 10:33:25 AM , Rating: 2
I've also wondered... if you NEVER plug a Volt in, what kind of gas mileage does it get?

Would be kinda cool if you could switch it to a "no plug" mode where the gas engine will run while you're away from the car to charge the battery while you're away.

Or if that was an option on the phone app they have for it. Open up the app, see that the battery is at 30%, move a slider up to 80% and click charge and the ICE fires up and charges the battery to 80% and shuts off. Then you can drive home on battery alone and plug it in.


RE: Don't reinvent the wheel.
By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 11:30:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've also wondered... if you NEVER plug a Volt in, what kind of gas mileage does it get?

About the same as a standard compact car like a Focus or Elantra, with slightly better city mileage and slightly worse highway mileage.


RE: Don't reinvent the wheel.
By Keeir on 3/5/2012 4:23:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
About the same as a standard compact car like a Focus or Elantra, with slightly better city mileage and slightly worse highway mileage.


The Volt gets a rating of 37 Combined Cycle MPG. With 35 City and 40 HWY.

The Focus SFE gets 28/40 to a Combined Cycle 33.

The Volt gets significantly better City Mileage (25% better) and the same HWY


RE: Don't reinvent the wheel.
By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 4:29:50 PM , Rating: 2
Does the EPA test the Volt without charging? I'm curious where you got the numbers from.

According to C&D tests, the Cruze Eco beats the Volt on highway mileage.


By Masospaghetti on 3/8/2012 10:57:31 AM , Rating: 2
The numbers Keeir posted (35 city / 40 highway) are for gasoline-only operation, with the battery depleted.

The Cruze Eco only beats the Volt on the highway with a manual transmission by 2 mpg but is significantly worse overall. With the automatic (more fair comparison, since the Volt is effectively an automatic), it's worse (39 mpg).


RE: Don't reinvent the wheel.
By Keeir on 3/8/2012 12:24:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to C&D tests, the Cruze Eco beats the Volt on highway mileage.


And accord to the EPA the Manual Cruze Eco beats the Volt on HWY mileage. C&D got the same mileage as the EPA.

As a side note, C&D also presented a chart which makes zero engineering sense.

They say the Cruze Eco Manual is capable of 75! mpg steady state travel at 40 mph and 40 mpg steady state at 75 mph.

They say the Volt is capable of only 38 mpg steady state travel at 40 mph and is capable of 42 mpg steady state at 75 mph.

What's wrong with this picture?

Traveling at 40 mph requires ~60% of the energy as traveling at 75 mph. (For most cars). The Cruze Eco Manual, I assume in top gear only since the chart they present shows no discontinuates that would result from gear change, does fairly well. Assuming the car is capable of 40 mpg at 75 mph, I would assume it would be capable of ~72 mpg at 40 mph provided the engine still functions at those rpm levels.

The Volt on the other hand, should result in more than a 76 mpg at 40 mph. Yet it is returning less than 40. Something is very very wrong with how C&D did the testing. It is not logical that the Volt was able to -more than double- its energy efficieny by increasing its speed.

On top of this, the Volt is supposed to start sourcing motive power from the engine at a certain speed. I've heard this identified as ~70 mph steady state on a flat road. 70 mph is the point in the curve where the Volt stops gains efficieny as speed increases to a drastic downward curve!

Overall, the chart is so counter to what data from other cars tell us, that I highly doubt the data collection or summery mechanism.


By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 10:55:37 AM , Rating: 2
VW just showed off a diesel-electric SUV concept at the Geneva auto show that they seem serious about producing. This after saying in the past hat there was not a good economic case for a diesel-electric hybrid car.


Cost prohitive... for now
By apinkel on 3/5/2012 10:12:57 AM , Rating: 2
You know what really drives adoption of high MPG vehicles? Higher gas prices.

The average American chooses a car based on their pocketbook. While the cost of the Volt is cost prohitive for most people now, I personally think the volt is the best long-term high MPG platform since it's ICE could in theory be quickly swapped for another power source depending on how the mid-term and long-term fuel sources progress (i.e. gasoline, diesel, hydrogen fuel cell (doubtful) or compressed natural gas).

Also, the fact that GM is building the volt on the same platform as the cruze, et.al. signals to me that they may actually be serious about this platform (unlike some of their past EV efforts).

I'm not sold on full EV's as a mass market solution since I have not seen any manufacturer come up with a viable solution to the range problem. Until they solve this full EV's will serve a very limited market.




RE: Cost prohitive... for now
By Dr of crap on 3/5/2012 12:26:21 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly.
The Volt is billed to be for those that don't travel more than 35 miles a day so that they only use the battery power. But at $40,000 is the cost worth it? If your an early adopter, or have the cash, the average Volt buyer has an income over $175,000, maybe. For those that don't have the cash for it.....?

The buyers say no!


RE: Cost prohitive... for now
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 1:06:08 PM , Rating: 2
I have no doubt that 20 years from now, if your travel to work is less than 20 miles, you will be "mandated" to ride a moped. At least the MP3 can get up to 88 mph! At $8600 though, even "highway speed" mopeds are almost out of the average price range. Still... better than $40k to get the same MPGs!!!

http://www.piaggiousa.com/scooters.html#!s=overvie...


RE: Cost prohitive... for now
By apinkel on 3/5/2012 1:38:58 PM , Rating: 2
I'm doubtful of that. Mopeds are pretty much reserved for countries that don't have the national resources to build mass transit systems nor independent wealth for cars. Mopeds have significant limitations in terms of range and weather and aren't a terribly good match for the US.

As population density increases I'd guess the move will be to mass transit. For the majority of the US that's just not an option now since vast stretches of the country have very sparse population. In the future I expect we will eventually migrate to mass transit the same way most of europe has.


RE: Cost prohitive... for now
By apinkel on 3/5/2012 2:23:05 PM , Rating: 2
I'd say the volt is a vehicle designed for anyone that can afford it (unlike full EVs). It's just most cost efficient for those that travel 35 miles or less per day.

I'm a big fan of the volt (outside of the price) and I think GM is finally being a bit progressive with their platforms. I hope they are rewarded as I think it's the best high MPG platform I've seen coming out of a US manufacturer.


Try it Before You Bash it!
By Captaindon130 on 3/5/2012 4:12:07 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder how many of the folks contributing here have actually driven a Volt? I had an opportunity to drive one this past fall and was extremely impressed. The vehicle itself is well put together with good quality control and it comes with a lot of the bells and whistles you would expect on a luxury car. I found the only noise I heard in city driving was the tire noise and on the highway the only noise was the wind noise. I found it very responsive around town and when I pulled onto the freeway I was doing 80 MPH before I realized it.

Unfortunately last fall the scheduled delivery was August 2012 which was too late for me so I got a Camry Hybrid instead. The dealers in Toronto cannot get enough vehicles to satisfy the demand so I was surprised to read this article.

Bottom line I want to make is give the car a test drive then make your opinion known.




RE: Try it Before You Bash it!
By ppardee on 3/5/2012 4:36:56 PM , Rating: 2
I saw an article a while back that was talking about alternative fuel vehicles. Chevy could put out a gasoline S10 every 12 seconds or so. Alternative fuel took quite a bit longer (something like every minute). This lack of scale increased the price.

Even so, unless dealers are selling a Volt every minute somewhere around the world and production only runs during dealer business hours, there's gonna be a surplus. Unless the UAW gave a bit on demands (which I doubt), the workers get paid even if production in halted, so this means that the Volt isn't selling very well. I'm sure there are hot spots around the world that want these cars, but there just aren't enough people willing to live on the bleeding edge of car tech when that bleeding edge costs $40,000 and we're in the early days of a depressed economy that has already lasted nearly 4 years.

If Chevy was quicker and released this thing in 2005, it might have had some legs. But who's gonna buy a car that costs as much as the average US household annual income when we aren't sure if we'll have a job next month? Not the people who can't afford $4/gallon gas, that's for sure.


RE: Try it Before You Bash it!
By Dan Banana on 3/5/2012 7:33:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wonder how many of the folks contributing here have actually driven a Volt? I had an opportunity to drive one this past fall and was extremely impressed. The vehicle itself is well put together with good quality control and it comes with a lot of the bells and whistles you would expect on a luxury car. I found the only noise I heard in city driving was the tire noise and on the highway the only noise was the wind noise. I found it very responsive around town and when I pulled onto the freeway I was doing 80 MPH before I realized it.


I agree, I haven't driven one but have been a passenger in one and it's an extremely nice car. Well built, dead quiet and super smooth. Will that make any difference to those philosophically opposed to anything GM (especially a "green" electric car) since the US taxpayers loaned GM money? I doubt it. Not much will get beyond their steel encased ears.


Buy by the cell
By Shadowmaster625 on 3/5/2012 10:12:20 AM , Rating: 2
Battery packs need to be expandable and cells need to be exchangeable. You need to be able to pull into a gas station, open your hood, and start yanking out cells and replacing them one at a time.

Also, you buy a car with say 4 cells and a range of 80 miles. Every few months you buy buy another cell until you have 12 installed for a range of 240 miles. Otherwise the sticker shock is just too much, and battery production capacity constraints have too great an effect on prices.




RE: Buy by the cell
By Qapa on 3/5/2012 6:30:40 PM , Rating: 2
That's a good idea but...

Quote from the Leaf: "The 24 kWh battery pack consists of 48 modules and each module contains four cells, a total of 192 cells"

So:
- these are already exchangeable (i.e.: if one fails, its 1/192 of the whole battery system);
- they also take lots of space, so adding more would cut into your inside the car space;

Now, concerning the Volt, they just messed the whole thing up!

They have between 1/2 and 1/3 of Leaf's range, so in batteries alone they save enough to pay for the added ICE-generator and still have spare money. So it should be CHEAPER than the Leaf!!

Oh and that stupid thing about the missing seat in the middle back... wth? again, very poor design this should be below the seats, etc...


Its not that I dont want an Electric Car but...
By GruntboyX on 3/5/2012 5:49:54 PM , Rating: 2
I would like to own an electric car, but they have issues.

1. I need a charging station at work. I cant guarantee that I will make the round trip to and from work on the current published ranges. If I cant get 10 years of guaranteed charging from my employer, then it looses practicality quickly and I can get stranded.

2. Cost. 40k of upfront is a lot to put down on a car that may or may not pay for itself in 10 years. Tax incentives are nice, but I cant wait for the government to give me my refund next year. I need it at time of purchase.

3. safety. If I get into a car accident, and my child is trapped in the back seat while the battery shorts and catches fire, who is going help? Current policies of rescue squads is to contain the fire only.

4. Long term reliability. I want 10 years 200k on the battery. at least a warranty.

5. Software. I want some field data and other people to beta test the vehicles. So much is drive by wire, I don't want a software glitch to cause the car to loose control.

6. Have I mentioned Cost

7. Home Charger. I need to have modifications done to my house and inspections to occur for the installation of the home charger to get 240V fast charging. Again, I don't want my house to burn down because the charger / battery fails in the middle of the night. Who pays for that? Home owners insurance? Car insurance?

There is a lot of questions that need ironed out. I want an electric car/truck. I would love to get off forign oil, but there is too much unknown and risk to owning such a vehicle. The technology needs to mature a little more.




By Dan Banana on 3/5/2012 9:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
3. safety. If I get into a car accident, and my child is trapped in the back seat while the battery shorts and catches fire, who is going help? Current policies of rescue squads is to contain the fire only.


Where exactly is this policy? It's widely known that the the high voltage needs to be disconnected ASAP in event of an electric car crash but the idea that first responders won't rescue PEOPLE is just absurd. Anytime there's something new on the scene we hear the most fearful and ridiculous stories surrounding it.


Why buy?
By bug77 on 3/5/2012 3:44:00 AM , Rating: 3
The current generation of hybrids is just a stop-gap solution until the EV actually becomes sustainable. (IMHO, there will several more generations before that happens.) I believe the public knows that and that's why it's reluctant to paying the premium.




By jimbojimbo on 3/6/2012 9:10:24 PM , Rating: 3
With Obama talking about making the rebate $10,000 why would anybody buy it now? Even if there's only a 10% chance that it would happen that's a 10% chance you could save $2,500.

I love gadgets and I'd love an electric car but I live in the city and don't have an outlet to charge in. Also, the Volt's an effin rip off. WAY too expensive.




No way
By Rage187 on 3/5/2012 10:22:46 AM , Rating: 2
I can barely fathom spending $40,000 on a vehicle. But I would never spend that much on a GM product. $20,000, maybe.




Dear Chevy
By stivwhat on 3/5/2012 10:33:44 AM , Rating: 2
Dear Chevy, please wake up, drink some coffee and get you heads out of your @sses.




car and driver test
By zinc0099 on 3/5/2012 2:19:11 PM , Rating: 2
Look up the car and driver article on the 2011 Chevy volt vs the cruse. They undercut themselves...





Typo
By adiposity on 3/5/2012 4:27:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Americans just are lining up to purchase GM's vision for electric vehicles


Might want to correct this.




By Dan Banana on 3/6/2012 1:59:55 AM , Rating: 2
This year, out of seven finalists, the European Car of the Year Award was shared by the Chevrolet Volt and its European cousin, the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera.
As it has since 1964, the announcement of the winner for the annual contest preceded the Geneva Motor Show – open now to the press and for public attendance March 8-18.
The Volt/Ampera along with the other finalists were judged on a number of different factors, ranging from design, to comfort, performance and technology.
When the dust settled, the Volt/Ampera had garnered a total of 330 points, followed by Volkswagen’s pint-sized Up! With 281 points and Ford’s 2012 Focus with 256.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/volt-and-ampera-win...




A nice car
By johnsmith9875 on 3/12/2012 4:02:45 PM , Rating: 2
But about 10 years too late as usual. No wonder sales are soft. GM killed its profitable future with how they handled the EV-1.

Wait until our soldiers are knee deep in iranian blood though, electric cars will suddenly be quite popular.




"Just" $20,000
By ErnieLane on 3/24/2012 7:15:27 PM , Rating: 2
"With a price of about $125 per kilowatt-hour, Envia claims that an EV with a driving range of 300 miles would cost just $20,000."

How often do the batteries need to be replaced?

When EV's have a range of 1,000 miles and can be recharged pretty much everywhere (i.e., every motel) with 110V AC overnight, we can talk.




This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/12, Rating: -1
RE: This should be entertaining
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 10:23:59 AM , Rating: 2
Your mindless banter and attempt to stir the pot is mind blowing as well. Get your facts before spewing Bill Maher talking points. If you had any common sense, you'd actually put 2 and 2 together and see the irony. Noticing you lack some of that, I'll go ahead and throw this out there.

The government was granted the power to pick winners and losers with money coming in the form of "Stimulus." (a slight hint of socialism). Obama gave a pretty good chunk to GM (using taxpayer money that over 60% of voters were against) and touted the Volt (to energize the green movement) as the flagship of the future. It's 40k, doesn't actually fit the mold of "All Electric," and catches on fire. Now, its production is suspended. And yet somehow, you still a positive in all of this? Whatever you gotta do to validate your vote, I suppose!!

On the Rush comment... a little off topic but I'll be happy to indulge you again to supplement all that ignorance. The debate, or slutgate, is not about Birth Control being covered by insurance. Its about Birth Control being "mandated" by affiliations that don't support its use. But like most mindless liberals, you simply correlate.. "if it ain’t free, then its violating someone's rights" BS and can't make a reasonable argument for or against it. Rush doesn't hate women, or birth control, or "You," per se; he just thinks the system is over-reaching, yet again. But why read the actual transcript and actually build your own opinion? Oh right... cause liberals use comedy shows to get their news.

Congratulations on being an idiot! Glad you shared it with all of us!! =)


RE: This should be entertaining
By Jedi2155 on 3/5/2012 10:36:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's 40k, doesn't actually fit the mold of "All Electric," and catches on fire.


- It is all electric until the battery gets low, then it'll continue using the tried true combustion engine. I don't understand why people have such a big issue with this to even bring it up as a point.

- Read the engineering report. You'll see how unlikely it is for a Volt to actually catch on fire in everyday use.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/Final_Rep...


RE: This should be entertaining
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 10:47:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is all electric until the battery gets low, then it'll continue using the tried true combustion engine. I don't understand why people have such a big issue with this to even bring it up as a point.

I don't have an issue with it... but sell it for what it is (just another hybrid), not under some disguise. If reviews like this constitute "flagship of the future," the Chevy FAILS:

http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/10/popular-mechanics-fi...
quote:
You'll see how unlikely it is for a Volt to actually catch on fire in everyday use.
When all 8000 sold are recalled, does it really matter? The threat is still there regardless of "unlikelihood" and this will turn away potential buyers.


RE: This should be entertaining
By acer905 on 3/5/2012 12:26:45 PM , Rating: 3
Gasoline is explosive. It's just very unlikely that it will explode sitting in your gas tank. However, it can happen regardless to whether or not the car was ever involved in a collision.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 12:59:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Gasoline is explosive. It's just very unlikely that it will explode sitting in your gas tank. However, it can happen regardless to whether or not the car was ever involved in a collision.

And my dog is freak'n huge, foams at the mouth, and very well capable of biting. It is very unlikely that he would (based on the ratio of occurrences), but I have a "Beware of Dog" sign out front anyway. You going to walk into my driveway? Would you consider it an "easy decision" if you did... casting no doubt what-so-ever?

The point here is that the "model that will drive our green future" already has signs of weakness, bad stats, and such low popularity that production has been halted. You can't defend against this, no matter how much "...the chances of that happening" you put behind your logic. Hell,go buy one! I won't judge you if you do, but would love to hear the rationale.

I have 3 cars: Yep... all gasoline too. All of them could blow up at any time, I suppose. But to my knowledge, none of them have been recalled and/or fell short of what the description said it could do. Reviews were positive too. Easy decision; Sound investment.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Kurz on 3/7/2012 1:06:08 PM , Rating: 2
Gasoline is pretty inert.
Drop a Match into a gas tank.
You might get a flare up from the fumes, but it'll go out pretty quickly.

Gas is only flamable when its in vapor form.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: This should be entertaining
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 11:15:46 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
How is that conservative "austerity" policy working out for European economies and car companies lately?

And do you know why they're having to take austerity measures now? I'll give you a hint: "Entitlements." So I'll ask you the same question. How did all that "Liberal" policy work out for European economies before the Austerity measures had to be taken?

Austerity measures are typically taken if there is a threat that a government cannot honor its debt liabilities.

Holy christ, your post is without thought! STOP, please! My gut hurts from laughing.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Paj on 3/7/2012 7:49:59 AM , Rating: 2
Wrong. Entitlements have nothing to do with it.

Scandinavian countries are arguably some of the most socialist in the world, and they are doing great. Norway has free public health care, the second highest level of GDP per capita in the world, the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation. They are literally bursting with money. Everyone is happy, yet - gasp - the state has a hand in many industries and services there!

Just like in the US, the problems in Europe have arisen due to greed, poor regulation and oversight. A major factor in Europes issues is Greece, because people there effectively didnt pay taxes. Tax avoidance became institutionalised. There were no penalties against it, the law was weak, the government turned a blind eye to it, and the debt piled up. European banks that lent to Greek banks are now exposed to massive debt that will never be repaid.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/7/2012 9:42:23 AM , Rating: 2
Ironically, I ran across this and couldn't help see the irony.
quote:
Whenever a bit of European social democracy runs into trouble–healthcare system inadvertently lethal, schools dilapidated, welfare bankrupt, whatever–it’s only a matter of time before some academic pops up and suggests ‘The Scandinavian Model’ instead.

http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2011/01/19/scandinavia...

However, you're not really comparing like apples here as it pertains to the European debt crisis. Entitlements/welfare state has a lot to do with their economic problems (i.e.. spending more on perks than its currently taking in to pay for them). Greece is one thing (lack of discipline from taxpayers)... as for all the other countries you left out, you may need to research a bit more.
quote:
An important factor in retarding the EU economies is the expensive social welfare entitlements enjoyed by Europeans. While the U.S. federal and state governments spend roughly 18 percent of GDP on pensions, welfare, and health care costs, the European Union spends nearly 29 percent. The list of entitlements seems endless: unemployment benefits, welfare payments, pensions, paid maternity leaves, child-care subsidies, free university education, expansive sick leave, restricted working hours, generous paid vacation and holiday leave, and government-provided health care.


http://www.insideronline.org/feature.cfm?id=320


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 1:56:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The government was granted the power to pick winners and losers with money coming in the form of "Stimulus." (a slight hint of socialism). Obama gave a pretty good chunk to GM (using taxpayer money that over 60% of voters were against) and touted the Volt (to energize the green movement) as the flagship of the future. It's 40k, doesn't actually fit the mold of "All Electric," and catches on fire. Now, its production is suspended. And yet somehow, you still a positive in all of this? Whatever you gotta do to validate your vote, I suppose!!


Obviously a large group of economists don't agree with your thinking and the ones that disagree with you are being proven more correct each day as Europe's economy falters further. It's just the "neoliberal" ones that do agree with you (look it up, it doesn't mean "liberal" as American conservatives and libertarians use the term). This is the kind of economic failure that you apparently advocate for the USA.

quote:
On the Rush comment... a little off topic but I'll be happy to indulge you again to supplement all that ignorance. The debate, or slutgate, is not about Birth Control being covered by insurance. Its about Birth Control being "mandated" by affiliations that don't support its use. But like most mindless liberals, you simply correlate.. "if it ain’t free, then its violating someone's rights" BS and can't make a reasonable argument for or against it. Rush doesn't hate women, or birth control, or "You," per se; he just thinks the system is over-reaching, yet again. But why read the actual transcript and actually build your own opinion? Oh right... cause liberals use comedy shows to get their news.


I guess that's why Rush felt compelled to repeatedly call the young woman a "slut" for her testimony before congress. Because he doesn't hate her. BTW for Rush and other conservatives' benefit: oral contraceptives don't work like Viagra and Oxycontin do.

As far as the Volt goes, the real deal is in leasing one. The cost is only $350 a month for 3 years with $2500 down which is a pretty good deal for a car that you will only have to buy gasoline for unless you choose to do so.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 3:03:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Classy eh? And no one in these areas set themselves up to be the target for liberal talk show material like Fluke did.


Yes, I think you show all the signs of being about as classless, angry and hateful as Rush Limbaugh is. Hey how about that Chevy Volt? You know the subject of the article?


RE: This should be entertaining
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 3:09:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hey how about that Chevy Volt? You know the subject of the article?

*facepalm* Please revisit your very first post to this thread for a refresher. RUSH comments were instigated by... that's right.. YOU!
quote:
Yes, I think you show all the signs of being about as classless, angry and hateful...

And you show all the signs of being liberal: Flat out arrogant and mind-numbingly uninformed.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 3:30:48 PM , Rating: 2
Do you have any more irrelevant personal comments to direct at me given your inability to focus on the subject at hand?
If I mention any economic or political commentator topics they are at least tangentially related to the subject.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/5/2012 3:41:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you have any more irrelevant personal comments to direct at me given your inability to focus on the subject at hand?

I have many other posts throughout this thread relevant to the subject. I took special aim at you though. You came with a dagger and you now you cry foul? *pfff*
quote:
If I mention any economic or political commentator topics they are at least tangentially related to the subject.

So a conservative's disdain for the Chevy Volt is the same as Rush's "hate for birth control." That statement alone deserves jackass award of the day. Rush hates FLUKE, not birth control! Christ dude, hang it up! You haven't posted anything "tangentially related."


RE: This should be entertaining
By Nfarce on 3/5/2012 3:29:59 PM , Rating: 2
This is off topic, but I've got to say something in response. What Rush said was not right and he should not have sunk to the name-calling of the left that we see on a regular basis. The liberal talk show host named Ed Shultz called conservative commentator Laura Ingraham a slut, but not a peep was said about it in the media and from you liberals. Same with radical left wing liberal comedian pundit Bill Maher said the GOP is a "deadly enemy." Nancy Pelosi, House minority member and former Speaker of the House, equated the Tea Party members as Nazis with "brown shirt" and "goose stepping" comments.

Double standard on hate speech there much, libs?


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 3:42:43 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
This is off topic, but I've got to say something in response. What Rush said was not right and he should not have sunk to the name-calling of the left that we see on a regular basis.


What "name calling of the left" are you talking about? How about narrowing down your broad brush to A) name calling in relation to the topic and B) individuals doing the name calling instead of the entire so-called "left"? For example mentioning Rush Limbaugh relates to the topic because he has repeatedly condemned the Volt, GM and their products as a result of the federal bail out and rescue of GM.

quote:
Motor Trend Editor On Limbaugh’s Chevy Volt Attacks: ‘Just Remember: Driving And Oxycontin Don’t Mix’ Last week, the influential auto magazine Motor Trend announced that it had named the breakthrough plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volt as its 2011 car of the year. Conservatives immediately picked up on the story and attacked Motor Trend. The magazine “awarded the Obama-approved, government-subsidized Chevrolet Volt its annual ‘Car of the Year’ appellation,” the Weekly Standard whined. Referring the federal government’s auto bailout — which turned out to be hugely beneficial for GM and the ailing industry — conservative Washington Post columnist George Will complained about the government “spending some of your money” to produce the Volt. But right-wing radio blow-hard Rush Limbaugh was perhaps the most vocal critic. The Volt has been a Limbaugh nemesis for quite some time. He even launched a campaign last August to undermine the innovative car. And this week, Limbaugh said of the Motor Trend award, “[O]f all the cars in the world, the Chevrolet Volt is the Car of the Year? Motor Trend magazine, that’s the end of them. How in the world do they have any credibility? Not one has been sold [and] the Volt is the Car of the Year.” Last week, one of the magazine’s editors, Todd Lassa, shot back at Limbaugh, noting that GM hasn’t sold any Volts “because it’s not on sale yet“: So, Mr. Limbaugh; you didn’t enjoy your drive of our 2011 Car of the Year, the Chevrolet Volt? Assuming you’ve been anywhere near the biggest automotive technological breakthrough since … I don’t know, maybe the self-starter, could you even find your way to the front seat? Or are you happy attacking a car that you’ve never even seen in person? [...] All the shouting from you or from electric car purists on the left can’t distort the fact that the Chevy Volt is, indeed, a technological breakthrough. And it’s more. It’s a technological breakthrough that many American families can use for gas-free daily commutes and well-planned vacation drives. It’s expensive for a Chevy, but many of those families will find the gasoline saved worth it. If you can stop shilling for your favorite political party long enough to go for a drive, you might really enjoy the Chevy Volt. I’m sure GM would be happy to lend you one for the weekend. Just remember: driving and Oxycontin don’t mix. Lassa also noted that the Volt isn’t some left-wing “tree hugging, Obama-supporting Government Motors” conspiracy, but was in fact conceived of well before Democrats regained control of Congress in 2006 and well before Obama began his campaign for the presidency. Lassa even points out that former GM executive “Bob Lutz, who famously decreed, ‘Global Warming is a crock of shit’ introduced the car two years before Bush gave GM its first bailout from TARP pocket change.” “Limbaugh’s beef with the Volt isn’t a question of automotive aesthetics or engineering,” MLive.com’s Jeff Wattrick notes. “He just doesn’t like the Volt because it’s one of them librul eel-eck-trick cars that Muslim-Socialist Obama forced on the real ‘Mericans in Detroit.” http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/11/23/13179...


RE: This should be entertaining
By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/2012 4:55:15 PM , Rating: 2
That is a truly alarmingly radical website. No wonder you're full of hate, angst, and general stupidity when you post.

Stupid in = stupid out. You need to get your brain cleaned.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/6/2012 9:25:17 AM , Rating: 2
Alarmingly radical? Only to someone alarmingly fascist I guess. Hey didja notice how many sponsors Rush baby lost? Also Peter Gabriel requested that Rush never use his song "Sledgehammer" again since it played in the background while he called the young woman foul hateful names. To think about the hell that the FCC put Howard Stern and others through for far less yet Limbaugh skates on free after his little hate speech episode it's just appalling. He should be fined about three billion dollars for abusing the public airwaves.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/7/2012 12:40:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He should be fined about three billion dollars for abusing the public airwaves.

So what's the going rate then for Ed Shultz referring to Laura Ingraham as a "slut" on National TV? Or your liberal clansman Bill Maher repeatedly referring to Palin as a "C**t?" Oh right.. when it fits your agenda, there is no penalty. Grow up dude. Posts like this just utter incompetence.

PS... Did you see Carbonite lost 12% on their stocks today? LOL! Also, Howard Stern is now a judge on America's Got Talent. I don't think the FCC or any "ads pulled" hurt his career either. Hell, I'm willing to bet "P. Gabrial" album sales just dropped too!


RE: This should be entertaining
By Nfarce on 3/5/2012 6:58:21 PM , Rating: 1
You brought up Rush bringing up SLUT (nothing to do with the Volt), and I responded with a left wing liberal doing the SAME THING (among others in my examples). Did you just glaze over those comments?

And the bailout that gave unions power over the bond holders was pathetic. If you think that was a good thing, you are the same. The Volt is what happens when you liberals try to create a market by force at taxpayer expense where there is no real market demand otherwise.

Apparently that's just a little too complex an issue for you to wrap your head around. BTW: GM was not "rescued" because they used TARP funds to pay back the loan. You must think using a MasterCard to pay off a Visa is a good thing.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/6/2012 11:55:57 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What "name calling of the left" are you talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/SPbEqCUb3hY

I find it hilarious that your fingers have no issues google'ing the opinionated crap produced by "ThinkProgress," but can't seem to find these 'lil gems!


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 3:57:47 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Same with radical left wing liberal comedian pundit Bill Maher said the GOP is a "deadly enemy." Nancy Pelosi, House minority member and former Speaker of the House, equated the Tea Party members as Nazis with "brown shirt" and "goose stepping" comments. Double standard on hate speech there much, libs?


Clearly the GOP has been a deadly enemy to the USA by trying to trash the economy and obstruct any progress by the president as their only hope of regaining power so I don't think of that as as "name calling" just as merely accurate. The push to let GM fail and place hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work at the time of the worst recession since the Great Depression is a great example of that. That would have probably set off a chain reaction to create a worse depression that the Great one. If the other stuff by Ed Schulz and Nancy Pelosi is factual I'd love to see the entire context.


By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/2012 4:46:24 PM , Rating: 1
You honestly make no sense. You're just another radical liberal retard spewing hate while accusing the other side of the same thing you're doing.

quote:
The push to let GM fail and place hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work at the time of the worst recession since the Great Depression is a great example of that. That would have probably set off a chain reaction to create a worse depression that the Great one.


What the hell are you talking about? You're making up history to suit your hatemongering. Republicans did not "push" for GM to fail. A Republican, Bush, took the decision out of congresses hands and saved GM. There was never a vote on GM, you don't know where Republicans would have stood.

Secondly this statement is a bunch of conjecture without fact, a fairy tale. The Great Depression didn't start with the loss of jobs. Claiming GM going bankrupt on their own, as apposed to a Government controlled bankruptcy (which happened), would have plunged the country into catastrophe is irresponsible!

The only "chain reaction" that would have taken place is the other automakers hiring those people to meet the increase vehicle demand left from GM's absence. Sure it might have hurt for a while, but so what? This Administration, which you foolishly support, has doled out plenty of hurt and we're still here.

You people talk as if, without GM, demand for vehicles would suddenly stop entirely. Those workers, parts suppliers, and dealerships would have been allocated to other auto-makers. Because, without GM, their demand would surely have gone up.

What in the hell has given you people such a low opinion of our country that we could not survive the closing of ONE company? What happened to you? Where's your American spirit?

Ah silly me, you're obviously a Liberal. That answers where your spirit and love of country went.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Nfarce on 3/5/2012 7:05:06 PM , Rating: 2
Congratulations Bongo. You get the asshat of the month award here. Funny how you liberals never look at the context of what Rush says then you expect it from your ilk.

GM wouldn't have failed, numbnuts. We saw what a near trillion dollar "stimulus" bill did in 2009 rammed through Congress by Democrats and signed by Obama. People like you are emotion driven, not fact driven. Not one single credible economist (obviously excludes that childless left wing idiot Paul "beady eyes" Krugman) has come up with credible FACTS that show bailouts saved us from the soup lines. NOT ONE. But I'm done wasting time with the mindless. You aren't worth real time and real debate.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Nfarce on 3/5/2012 7:09:29 PM , Rating: 1
And another thing mouth breather: the Bush administration actually opened the door to the GM bailout in 2008 by approving an initial sum to get it started and leaving the bigger decision and larger sum decisions to the next administration. Just that fact alone renders anything you have said here on the issues - including the GOP wanting GM to fail - null and void .


By Dan Banana on 3/5/2012 9:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
Is that so? It's a very good thing then that Bush didn't hear the way his GOP buddies in Congress talked about the idea of bailing out GM. Oh how very mistaken these prognosticating geniuses were. :-)

Rep. John Boehner (R-OH): “Does anyone really believe that politicians and bureaucrats in Washington can successfully steer a multi-national corporation to economic viability?” [6/1/09]

Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL): “It’s basically going to be a government-owned, government-run company. …It’s the road toward socialism.” [5/29/09]

RNC Chairman Michael Steele: “No matter how much the President spins GM’s bankruptcy as good for the economy, it is nothing more than another government grab of a private company and another handout to the union cronies who helped bankroll his presidential campaign.” [6/1/2009]

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC): “Now the government has forced taxpayers to buy these failing companies without any plausible plan for profitability. Does anyone think the same government that plans to double the national debt in five years will turn GM around in the same time?” [6/2/09]

Rep. Tom Price (R-GA): “Unfortunately, this is just another sad chapter in President Obama’s eager campaign to interject his administration in the private sector’s business dealings.” [6/2/09]

Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ): When government gets involved in a company, “the disaster that follows is predictable.” [7/22/09]

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX): The auto company rescues “have been the leading edge of the Obama administration’s war on capitalism.” [7/22/09]


RE: This should be entertaining
By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 4:49:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As far as the Volt goes, the real deal is in leasing one. The cost is only $350 a month for 3 years with $2500 down which is a pretty good deal for a car that you will only have to buy gasoline for unless you choose to do so.

While that's a good deal compared to buying the volt, the 2011 328i xdrive is $328/month with $2k down.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Dan Banana on 3/5/2012 9:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not familiar with that car. Is it a US made electric car like the Chevrolet Volt? If so, I'm very interested in learning more about it.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/2012 9:45:03 PM , Rating: 2
www.google.com


RE: This should be entertaining
By corduroygt on 3/6/2012 1:53:38 AM , Rating: 2
It's a much more luxurious, faster, more prestigious, and a much better driving car than the Volt which also happens to be safer in the rain/snow. And it's cheaper to lease.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Dan Banana on 3/6/2012 6:06:49 AM , Rating: 2
Unless I'm missing something that's not an electric car or even a hybrid and at 20 MPG combined it's a very oil thirsty car so I'm not sure why you're comparing apples to oranges.


By Dan Banana on 3/6/2012 7:01:03 AM , Rating: 2
Looking at the BMW website it looks like they have an electric car (or soon will have a limited number of them) but it will cost you a lot more money.

The Details
$499*/month for closed-end, 24 months lease
$499 First month's payment
$2,250 Down payment
$0 Security deposit
$0 Maintenance1
$2,749 Cash due at signing

This is the moment you reshape history. But that’s easy when you’re the one making it.
As a potential lessee of a BMW ActiveE, you’re one step closer to becoming an official BMW Electronaut. After submitting your online reservation form and acknowledging the installation quote from AeroVironment, the next step will take place at your preferred BMW ActiveE center. Your BMW ActiveE center will guide you through the remainder of the lease process and, ultimately, confirm whether a car is available and you are able to claim your spot as a BMW ActiveE Electronaut.
Once you have received confirmation of vehicle availability, you should complete your charging station installation through AeroVironment.
Vehicles will be available on a first-come, first-served basis. Car deliveries expected to begin in early 2012.

http://www.bmwusa.com/activee


RE: This should be entertaining
By corduroygt on 3/6/2012 10:19:21 AM , Rating: 2
Because it's idiotic to get an electric car, or any hybrid besides a Prius today. It's apples to oranges as the BMW is the far better car, yet the car payments are less. True it'll cost more in gas but you're driving the best sports sedan out there and not some chevy.


By Dan Banana on 3/6/2012 1:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because it's idiotic to get an electric car, or any hybrid besides a Prius today. It's apples to oranges as the BMW is the far better car, yet the car payments are less. True it'll cost more in gas but you're driving the best sports sedan out there and not some chevy.


So it's FINALLY okay for a typical American throwback to admit that it's alright to buy and drive a Prius? Well, we are making progress!

In a few years you folks will all be saying the same thing about Volts and electric cars in general. Too bad you geniuses move at such a glacial pace in a time of light speed necessity or we'd have more and better products faster. The rest of the world is used to waiting for the special short bus though. :-)

If you want to pay for a low MPG gasoline car like the BMW you mentioned you're still free to do that just so go right ahead. Just don't expect anything except a trend of rising fuel prices over time.


RE: This should be entertaining
By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 11:40:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Another chance for the conservative "I hate Obama/GM/The Volt/Electric Cars/Socialism" gang to bash the Volt and electric cars in general.

I'm a liberal and I bash Volt/Electric cars because they're simply not ready for the mass market from a purely technological standpoint. When we have 500% improvements in battery capacity, cost, and recharge times, then they'll be ready. It's all about the batteries and the fact is that storing energy as electricity is dreadfully inefficient compared to storing it as combustible fuel.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 2:04:45 PM , Rating: 2
You are completely free to buy something else then if you're in the market for a new car. Should you choose to help your country get free of being dependent on oil by buying a high MPG electric car you will get a tax credit for your patriotism and efforts in this area. Fair enough?


RE: This should be entertaining
By Ringold on 3/5/2012 3:00:53 PM , Rating: 1
One would argue, perhaps even him, that why waste money we truly dont have on tax credits until those advancements are here? And when they are here, perhaps people wont even need the tax credits to encourage the purchase? It's almost assured that the improvements to the battery technology will happen; even outside of cars, mobile phones and laptops and even grid-scale energy storage for power utilities all are pushing the field forward. It's just a matter of time. In the mean time, we've pushed GM to waste valuable money on a failed project and spend money subsidizing it that we don't have to.

There's plenty of highly fuel efficient vehicles out there. Ford Fiesta is one I always like to mention; efficient, and produced by a company that didn't take one cent in bailout money in recent years and has paid all its liabilities in full. Or even the Prius that you seem to have a hard-on for, another unsubsidized firm. You call the conservative view full of hate, but it's not; it's realization that the same goals can be pursued with less government spending.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Keeir on 3/5/2012 3:12:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ford Fiesta is one I always like to mention; efficient, and produced by a company that didn't take one cent in bailout money in recent years and has paid all its liabilities in full


Errr... that depends on how you define those terms. Some like to lump the ATVM loans as "bailout", etc. Ford still owes more than 5 billion on its ATVM loans.

Fiesta is at best a 34 MPG combined B segment car which starts around 17,000 with the SFE package. I am not really impressed with Ford's Fiesta or Focus in practice.

And of course, Ford has produced Hybrids that got government subsidies, and is planning on producing not one but two Government Subsidized PHEVs in addition to a full EV.


By Boingo Twang on 3/5/2012 3:26:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
One would argue, perhaps even him, that why waste money we truly dont have on tax credits until those advancements are here?


Well for one thing the electric car credit is just that. It's NOT a tax expenditure of any kind.


By corduroygt on 3/5/2012 4:23:09 PM , Rating: 2
I'd agree with you on this point. While I do feel that there is strategic importance for the US to get off of imported oil, but the money being spent on subsiziding EV's is better off spent as grants to universities to research better batteries, biofuels, etc. We do that in military and medicine all the time and it works.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Reclaimer77 on 3/5/12, Rating: 0
RE: This should be entertaining
By Boingo Twang on 3/6/2012 9:33:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Should you choose to help your country get free of being dependent on oil by buying a high MPG electric car you will get a tax credit for your patriotism and efforts in this area. Fair enough?

That's a terrifyingly socialist viewpoint on the role of Government in the free market... "Rewarding patriotism" through selective tax credits. Interesting statement. Not exactly what I would call it though.


I imagine that just about everything under the sun is "terrifyingly socialistic" to you. It is very patriotic to fight in the battle against our slavery to national-less big oil companies whether you like it or not. It's the socialistic tendencies of the wealthiest corporations ever in the history of the world buying governments that you need to start worrying about.


RE: This should be entertaining
By corduroygt on 3/6/2012 10:22:12 AM , Rating: 2
Why don't you be patriotic and ride a bike to work, or get a motorcycle, or move to the city and use public transport? Where are THEIR tax breaks huh?

We can fight against the oil companies by drilling, or more preferably GROWING, our own oil and pouring the money on battery research instead of giving people who can afford $40K cars tax breaks that they could live without.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/6/2012 10:55:19 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
We can fight against the oil companies by drilling, or more preferably GROWING, our own oil and pouring the money on battery research instead of giving people who can afford $40K cars tax breaks that they could live without.

Here's the problem. What you just said is what 60% of voters have been saying. If the US wants to be competitive and patriotic at the same time, the best thing we could do is supply our demand using our own resources (and that includes land, air, and sea). Supply ALL energy resources domestically and in greater quantities (oil, coal, corn, hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) and use ALL OF THEM, COLLECTIVELY.

What Boingo just got out of it: "Drill, baby Drill! You're all a bunch of oil sucking Nazis).

What he fails to comprehend is that the battery industry is totally reliant on China's rare earth materials. Oil or Battery, in its present state, is an import (leading to slavery and shit, apparently).


By corduroygt on 3/6/2012 12:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
1 gallon of vegetable oil is $6.78 at Walmart and that includes the container, and the cost to ship it in individual 1 gal containers and pay for the staff to put it on the shelves, and the rent of shelf space, and at least a 20% profit margin for the store.

I say $5/gallon is easily doable TODAY if it were being served at a gas station with little profit margin. Since it contains %25 more energy than gasoline, it equates to $4/gas when used in a diesel engine designed for vegetable oil.

The only thing you have to be careful about using vegetable oil is to keep the tank and the oil lines warm because otherwise it'll freeze solid. Much easier and cheaper problem to solve compared to putting batteries in cars. It's also CO2 neutral if you care about that sort of thing, and we have tons of room to grow the plants to make them.


RE: This should be entertaining
By Dorkyman on 3/6/2012 10:31:14 AM , Rating: 2
Wow. I am speechless.

See you at the polls in November.


By Boingo Twang on 3/7/2012 10:40:12 AM , Rating: 2
I doubt guys like you will show up at the polls if Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly is on. You'll be too bust shouting in hateful agreement with them about some supposed "socialism" or "sluts" to leave the house.


By Rott3nHIppi3 on 3/6/2012 10:45:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I imagine that just about everything under the sun is "terrifyingly socialistic" to you


SOCIALISM: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital , land, etc., in the community as a whole.

quote:
"The Mackinac Center says analyst James Hohman arrived at that figure after looking at "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits" that "flow through multiple companies involved in production."

• A $105.9 million Energy Department grant to General Motors for its Brownstown, Mich., plant that assembles batteries for the Volt.

• State credits worth $106 million to keep the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, where the car is made, rolling.

• $100 million in tax breaks and cash subsidies for Compact Power, which supplies the Volt batteries.

All that for a car the public doesn't want but is being pushed into because lawmakers and bureaucrats think they know what's best for everyone else. Clearly these officials believe they're justified in spending other people's money to force their green-economy agenda."

http://news.investors.com/Article.aspx?id=603269&i...

Certainly seems to read that way.

quote:
It is very patriotic to fight in the battle against our slavery to national-less big oil companies whether you like it or not.

WTF? Your liberal spin makes my head hurt! 1. There's no battle, just lobbyists you can't stand (who funded Obama's campaign, mind you). 2. There's no slavery; you can ride whatever you want to work to avoid any "beatdowns" or "whippings" you feel your OPEC overseers are unfairly dishing out. But do be aware, your bike tires, helmet, and pedals are prob. made out of petroleum.


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