Source: Emails [torrent]
quote: If my understanding of this is correct it sounds like the scientists are tired of explaining all their work to outsiders.
quote: going with the carbon credits, and all the costs we would put on our selfs is rediculious.
quote: The basic thesis that Co2 causes warming looks pretty easy to accept.
quote: If AWG theory was correct Earth would have been a runaway greenhouse, no abundant life would have been possible and the planet would have been a desert
quote: Instead plant and animal life exploded and there was no global warming issue.
quote: Looks like, unlike climate scientists, geologists are NOT "lazy".
quote: Good thing we all evolved some frontal lobes to allow us to break such a cycle that would have obliterated previous species...the bad news is we also have some abberation in our species that causes portions of it to recoil from unpleasant knowledge...so we might be screwed after all. Thanks deniers.
quote: We'll crap greenhouse gasses until we extinct ourselves
quote: Blah blah blah...I lack technical reading skills blah blah
quote: Finally... WTF do you mean how did life thrive on Earth with 20 times the Co2? Um buddy...we didn't start out with an oxygen rich atmosphere.
quote: Are you stupid? There was massive plant and animal life, and moderate temperatures, on Earth during the times of massive CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere. This directly contradicts the modern-day theory that CO2 is a temperature "driver" and high levels will cause a runaway greenhouse effect. Hello?
quote: Why are we even arguing? If I was a nutjob "denier" and this was already accepted science, it should be as easy for you to prove me wrong as it is proving gravity. So please, by all means, show me the proof that AWG is real and that it's a threat to our way of life. Prove to me that any "warming trend" is unnatural and man made. Where's the proof? Not evidence, but PROOF!
quote: Plant and animal life means what? Is that a thermometer? We've got plant and animal life from the arctic to the equator and even down to volcanic thermal vents. WTF does the existence of this life say about a correlation between GHG and atmospheric temperature?
quote: If 20 times the CO2 levels as we have today didn't produce the result that AGW claims will happen when CO2 levels rise, THE THEORY IS WRONG!
quote: I for one actually believe we are indeed in a small 'natural cycle' We'll crap greenhouse gasses until we extinct ourselves and most other carbon producing life. What carbon consuming life remains will thrive. This tiny cycle will be part of larger ones and the earth will move on happily without us.
quote: There was no widespread consensus involving thousands of researchers and publications.
quote: This is a fair point. Group position statements are designed to present a united front. The best indicator of what individual scientists think is in the current scientific literature, where new and different is the paramount value and scientists are free to express their own ideas, as long as they're supported by data and logic. What does the literature look like in terms of the climate debate? Sounds like a good topic for research.Naomi Oreskes took on just this topic. She did an ISI database search with the keyword phrase "global climate change," and then surveyed those resulting abstracts published between 1993 and 2003 in refereed scientific journals. There were 928.She then divided the papers into six categories: 1.explicit endorsement of the consensus position, 2.evaluation of impacts, 3.mitigation proposals, 4.methods, 5.paleoclimate analysis, and 6.rejection of the consensus position.The details can be read here. Oreskes' key finding is that none of the papers fell into the last category, while 75% fell into the first three. This is a surprisingly robust consensus of opinion, especially considering that the start date was a full two years before the 1995 IPCC report, eight years before the more recent 2001 report.A lot has happened since then, and none of it casts any doubt on the finding that the world is warming and it is primarily due to human actions.
quote: I do, however, believe that majority of the people in this field of research are convinced of Global Warming.
quote: Heres the link that answers this BS directlyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OB2prBtVFo&feature...
quote: I thought this time the salesman would have a different approach, you know show the whole email, show what it's about... ah but no.
quote: Your now like a capitalist standing in front of wall street, shouting that capitalism is a good thing!Neither the people of Wall street or occupied are gone changing there mind if you storming them with "your opinion" like a Don Quixote.
quote: My neighbor and friend is a real scientist, a DNA researcher and par time teacher at the university, and of course we have disused it, and he is saying:1. there is a consensus in scientific community is, that global warming is happening.2. that no one knows, if it is man made or just a natural circle.3. that it dose not hurt to be at the side of caution, as if it is man made and the balance tips, its gone be very hard unbelievable more costly to get the balance back, and we need to do it anyway because we are running out of energy.What happened was that in the 90s, scientist saw a steep rise in global temperatures, and they ware corresponding whit mans increase in pollution output.So even do they did not fully understand what was going on, they panicked and puled the emergency brake.Now a decade and a half later, and with a better understand whats going on, the consensus changed from "man is causing global warming" to "man is A factor in global warming", there is just no real consensus on how big the human factor is.
quote: And the primary solutions to fix global warming, fixes a other problem we need to fix of the same magnitude anyway, the fact that we are running out of oil and gas!And biggest solution to combat global warming is reducing energy consumption.
quote: What does capitalism and/or Don Quixote have to do with this debate?
quote: But the question is whether to let the free market mandate change or force change via political action.
quote: My point is that if you're turning your back on the cheap and simple solution (nuclear)
quote: The first part of your post just read like a creationism debate.
quote: but we drive smaller cars now
quote: But saying you gone increase energy tax by 5% for 10y, and guaranty to lower other taxes by a equal amount, that would work.
quote: Because one thing is sure, we are running out of cheep oil, and if we don't act now, the crises we are in now, will be noting compared whats to come.
quote: You're insane to want to force everybody into that mold.
quote: Promises, promises. President and Congress have a great track-record there.
quote: And now who is the alarmist? Instead of endlessly tweaking tax revenues and gov't regulations on "hydrocarbon based energy", why not just solve the energy crisis and invest in nuclear? Oh, that's right, because you haven't had enough time to tweak the regulations on that industry....
quote: If a hurricane is coming
quote: Oil is running out, that is not a prediction, its a fact.
quote: socialism is not communism, if managed well like in Holland Germany or Scandinavia, it can be a hell of a lot better then most alternatives.
quote: Or do you really think its a good plan to all keep driving V8 Doge ram's?
quote: And what happens if oil prizes go to 2~300 a barrel, what country will have the edge of the other ?
quote: Ok lets agree to disagree, as i think, putting your fingers in your ears, and go lalalalaaa works very well for you.
quote: You haven't yet answered one of my questions
quote: which just makes your alarmist claims all the more astounding.
quote: If the alarm needs to be raised it ought to be in regards to out-of-control gov't spending
quote: I really don't care to dog you out, but then I don't care to be put in such a position either. Something about you compels me.
quote: Think i have done that,
quote: We all pay tax, that's some think we cant avoid, i am saying shift the tax to mange scarce resources as mouths as possible.
quote: I would think it makes me more than average knowledgeable
quote: And i am not a alarmist, anyone that pays attention knows that oil is running out
quote: Actually its not the normal spending that's a problem. It militarily spending and contracts, the tax cuts and aviation of banks and the top 1% richest people.
quote: Did you not start the name calling ? "Commissar"
quote: I'll ask again, who do you think you are? Commissar Michael?
quote: My experience as a piping supervisor in the (perto)chemical industry tells me something else.
quote: And what happens when oil prizes go to 2~300 a barrel, what country will have the edge of the other ?The one with the V8's or the one with the small efficient 4 cylinder cars, and more energy efficient economy
quote: But yeah how would you know how other systems work, as 75% of Americans don't even own a passport. As the pure capitalistic way is working so mouths better, just ask all the people that have bin evicted out of there homes.
quote: Michael is a liberal and arguing with him is an Olympic event
quote: Another premise is that he sees taxation as a form of social engineering and policy control.
quote: More lies, BS and conspiracy theories from the "Dont tax me bro" lobby.Check out "Potholer54" channel on youtube for an answer to all this BS.
quote: The first round of "climategate" has been proven to be twisted and taken out of context
quote: How much of the warming is due to humans and what will be the likely effects? We made no independent assessment of that.
quote: I would suggest searching for these articles
quote: Entering into a geological discussion, note how the planet was a much different place during the Permian period:
quote: Penny for your thoughts?
quote: If the global temperature is only dependent on CO2, then the change of temperature at present would be around 10 °C or higher
quote: Sounds like good advice -- advice Phil Jones and Thomas Stocker are doing their best to follow.
quote: Our report wasn't perfect, but it got the most important point right. The climate emails, if authentic, inarguably prove Phil Jones and a handful of other climatologists plotted to keep their professional actions out of the public eye.
quote: I don't see how this is a problem. I've worked as a backup admin at a major public university and the email backups are structured such that they are deleted every 7 days, which is fewer than the maximum number of days required for the university to respond to an FOIA request (and my boss told me that 7 was chosen specifically for this reason).
quote: Uh that's not what I said. I said "mail backups".If a student/professor deletes an email, then it's deleted forever after 7 days. This way people can have a day or so to delete the email, lose the backup, and then "fail" to respond to FOIA.
quote: University research is inherently non-political.
quote: You are so very wrong. Politicians have no say in how entities like NSF spend their grant money. NSF is staffed by respected professors who determine who gets grants and who does not.
quote: Seems like you would agree that the problem isn't with academia itself, but rather the lack of funding :)http://www.phdcomics.com/documents/phd041410.pdf
quote: For example: many professors and grad students in my field get their funding through Intel and NVIDIA. In this case, what makes them happy isn't "treading the company line". Instead, they use us as cheap sources of labor. Basically, we are used as risk-free attempts to push the cutting edge. If something is deemed to be limited (in the case of NVIDIA, CUDA), then NVIDIA would like us to figure out what it is good at, or define where exactly its limitations lie.There is no politics involved. The only part where they have a say is the general topic area (e.g. CUDA), unless you choose to provide specifics. A company like NVIDIA simply says something like "we want to fund research in topics X, Y, and Z." There is no pressure to produce a certain outcome; indeed, if people were pressured to do so, NVIDIA would probably make incorrect business decisions in the future, which would eventually hurt their products and thus their profits.
quote: Here is where you are very, very wrong. University research is inherently very political. They get all their research money from state and federal funds. This means getting in bed, constantly, with political entities to get that money. If the politicians that run these entities don't like the results, the money gets cut. For that very reason, it is all political. All university research is suspect specifically for that reason.
quote: I gave up on [Georgia Institute of Technology climate professor] Judith Curry a while ago. I don’t know what she thinks she’s doing, but its not helping the cause.
quote: As for the NPR link, it certainly doesn't look very good but I haven't had time to take a look. In general, if the professor was tenured, there would be no way that he'd be fired. I don't see how "risk of firing" can possibly be an issue. Heck, there exist crappy professors who don't believe in evolution (and use their professorship as credentials for people to believe him), and even they haven't been fired.
quote: Professors who aren't good enough to get funding from unbiased institutions like NSF, etc. generally are the ones that end up getting the "biased" money sources.Academia is like any other field, there are competent professors and then there are incompetent professors. If you guys have gone to college, I'm sure you've experienced both first-hand.
quote: Professors who aren't good enough to get funding from unbiased institutions like NSF, etc. generally are the ones that end up getting the "biased" money sources.
quote: University research is inherently non-political. It only becomes political after outside forces affect them. Transparency to the public (not to other fellow researchers) is bad since the public is too ignorant to understand what's going on, and then the media blows up on something taken out of context and/or misinterprets something. Nothing good can come out of it. It's harsh but true: these people aren't researchers for a reason
quote: Climatology isn't the only field where there doesn't exist much transparency for the general public. Just consider any matter of national security. Indeed, one can pretty easily argue that global warming is a matter of national security.
quote: FYI there's really no point for "corruption" in academia.
quote: Professors get paid like shit, the job is stressful, the hours are long, and maybe 10 or so jobs open up every year for graduating PhD students.
quote: Uh that's not what I said. I said "mail backups".