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  (Source: greenrightnow.com)
Dell's profit fell 47 percent to 39 cents per share while revenue dropped 11 percent to $13.7 billion

Dell's financial report for the third quarter seems to have missed the targets predicted by Wall Street on many levels due to sluggish PC sales.

For Q3 2012, Dell's profit fell 47 percent to 39 cents per share while revenue dropped 11 percent to $13.7 billion from a year previous (Wall Street expected $13.9 billion). Its net income fell from $893 million (49 cents per share) in Q3 2011 to $475 million (27 cents per share) in Q3 2012.

A large reason for Dell's financial tumble is the lack of demand for PC upgrades. Dell's PC shipments fell 8.3 percent in Q3 2012 from a year earlier.

“In a difficult global IT spending environment we saw solid proof points that demonstrate progress in our strategy,” said Brian Gladden, Dell CFO. “A highlight has been the strong progress of our newly introduced servers, with our server and networking business up 11 percent. We’re also encouraged by early interest in our new Windows 8 touch portfolio and the opportunities it creates for our commercial and consumer businesses.”

Looking forward, Dell predicts a fourth quarter revenue of $14 billion to $14.4 billion, which is a bit less than the $14.5 billion analysts were shooting for. In Q4 2011, revenue was $16 billion.

In response to all of this disappointing news, Dell stock dropped to $8.81 this morning, which is the lowest its been since March 12, 2009.

While Dell is looking to Windows 8 for some kind of revival, the new operating system hasn't provided any immediate boost for PC makers. In fact, Gladden said Windows 8 wouldn't affect Dell's financial results for the next two quarters.

"The client business continues to be challenging," said Gladden. "Commercial customers tend to be lagging adopters of a new operating system. They're going to wait."

To make matters worse, Microsoft doesn't solely depend on PC makers for hardware anymore. Last month, it released its first tablet hardware, Surface RT, which features the RT version of the Windows 8 mobile OS. Next year, Microsoft plans to release the Surface Pro, which will run Windows 8 Pro.


Source: Dell



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Windows 8 the savior ???
By max_payne on 11/17/2012 12:12:40 AM , Rating: 5
Does anyone was really thinking that Windows 8 will bring people in drove to update their pc/laptops ? Windows 8 is such a radical move and bring nothing enticing to that platform. Why change your machine if W7 does everything you want just fine.




RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By Philippine Mango on 11/17/2012 12:53:52 AM , Rating: 2
This is how I feel about Windows XP. If XP 64 was only more mainstream...


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By drycrust3 on 11/17/2012 12:12:19 PM , Rating: 2
There are 64 bit Linux distributions as well.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By Cypherdude1 on 11/18/2012 7:23:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does anyone was really thinking that Windows 8 will bring people in drove to update their pc/laptops ? Windows 8 is such a radical move and bring nothing enticing to that platform. Why change your machine if W7 does everything you want just fine.
For non-touchscreen devices, Win8 Pro has a lot of extra code the user will never use. Win8 Pro has code for both touchscreens and the regular desktop with the start button. This is what I understand from viewing a review.

M$ is following a familiar pattern of producing an excellent O/S and then releasing a poor O/S: Win98SE, WinME, WinXP, WinVista, Win7, and now Win8 Pro. Intel has their tick-tock release policy, M$ has their's (a little PC humor there, heh, heh):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock

If you have Win7-64, there's no reason to upgrade to Win8 Pro unless you have a touchscreen. Most desktops and laptops don't have one. Others here have stated some (many?) programs will not work in Win8 Pro. I hope this is not true because, someday, I may buy a Win8 Pro quad-core, quad-speaker 15.6" tablet, upgrade it to 8 GB RAM, 256 GB mSATA and run some serious applications on it.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By StevoLincolnite on 11/19/2012 7:29:29 AM , Rating: 2
Except... The release didn't go 98 > ME > XP > Vista > 7.

You are forgetting Windows NT and most importantly, Windows 2000. - Which was pretty much released at a similar time to Windows ME if I remember rightly.
And worthy to note is that Windows 2000 had more in common with Windows XP than what Windows ME had, as XP was built on the NT kernel and not Win9x.
I remember people at the time claiming XP was just Windows 2000 with a pretty new skin as all the drivers and software pretty much worked in either OS, which was true for the time, until a few service packs later.

As for Vista, it did have a shaky release, most of the issues have been pretty much been fixed a long time ago, most of Vista's problems could be blamed on the hardware manufacturer's poor drivers.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By retrospooty on 11/19/2012 10:38:55 AM , Rating: 2
"The release didn't go 98 > ME > XP > Vista > 7."

From a consumer product perspective it did go 98 > ME > XP > Vista > 7. NT and 2000 were not consumer products. XP was the first one that got rid of the crappy Win95 kernel and used the stable NT kernel in a consumer based OS.

To that I totally agree. MS has a long history of "hit and miss". Win8 is the miss. Probably not as bad as Vista was a miss, but a miss. The UI is great for touchscreens and more irritating than useful for desktops and laptops.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By JPForums on 11/19/2012 9:55:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you have Win7-64, there's no reason to upgrade to Win8 Pro unless you have a touchscreen.
There are reasons, they are just not UI related. Graphically showing download speed and the ability to switch network connections (wired to wireless and back) automatically and without stopping a current download are a couple that come to mind. That said, unless you just like the new interface, it is hard to say that the changes are worth the switch. I needed to get used to it so I could work on other peoples computers. I find the interface less efficient than Windows 7 for non touch screen devices. That said, once you learn the short cut keys, it isn't much of an issue. The under lying controls are still there, but, much like with Vista/7 vs XP, they are a little more obscured. Still, I don't see a reason to upgrade from 7 if you are happy with it. However, I also wouldn't avoid a new computer just because it comes with 8.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By crispbp04 on 11/17/2012 12:42:57 PM , Rating: 5
XP was good, but for the love of god, old dogs can learn a new trick. Please do so.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By B3an on 11/17/2012 3:25:54 PM , Rating: 4
XP was ****. Its a security risk and don't work with tons of new hardware. It even got many bad reviews on release. The ONLY reason people like it is because it was around for so long that they eventually got very used to it.

And this article is BS. Q3 results are for July, August and September. So this wont include Windows 8 sales.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By bigboxes on 11/18/2012 1:25:52 AM , Rating: 3
XP was great for it's time. After SP2, you had a very stable product. Now, I know you are going to beat your chest some more for Win8, but only time will tell. In the meantime, don't be such a fanboi.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 5:05:26 PM , Rating: 1
B3an is a ridiculous MS fanboy, so its pretty funny to hear someone call him otherwise.

I'm surprised that he slams XP, but good on him for seeing reality. XP was a disaster from a security standpoint. Microsoft fixing those problems with Vista by adding Unix style user elevation of rights rather than the "every user is root/admin" style of XP (a disaster) did so much to fix the issue of malware on Windows.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By rdhood on 11/19/2012 10:22:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
XP was great for it's time. After SP2, you had a very stable product.


That was my experience. Pre-XP was a BSOD peppered 5 years. It meant praying/playing with IRQs, unstable hardware and software. Post-XP/SP2 was mostly stable and headache free.

I did not go to Vista, but went straight to Windows 7. There was a time, several years ago, when XP vs. 7 was a competitive choice. But $90 for a 6-core processor + motherboard and $40 for 8GB of DDR3 memory fixed any qualms I had about going to a new operating system with ever so slightly worse performance than XP. I upgraded my three systems at home to Win7 for under $100. There is no legitimate reason to stay on XP anymore.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By Cypherdude1 on 11/18/2012 6:23:13 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
XP was ****. Its a security risk and don't work with tons of new hardware.
I'm not sure what "security risks" you're talking about. M$ is still supporting XP SP3 with patches until April 2014. Also, if you connect a router and use Symantec Norton Internet Security 2013 or 360 2013 (both XP 32 bit only), you should not have any security holes.

As for hardware, it's difficult to gauge how much hardware no longer works with XP SP3 (I now use Win7 64).


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By martyrant on 11/18/2012 6:38:22 PM , Rating: 2
Did you really just suggest putting a symantec product on a computer?

To quote Roy from the I.T. Crowd, "Are you from the past?"

I'm sure corporate users will still be like "Backup Exec? bbqwtf???"...to that I say look outside your software circle.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By StevoLincolnite on 11/19/2012 7:37:16 AM , Rating: 2
Try Nod32. It's efficient, unobtrusive and effective, all 3 things that Norton isn't.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By TheJian on 11/18/2012 12:34:16 PM , Rating: 2
Name a piece of hardware that doesn't work with XP. Heck, if it's so easy to do so, name 10. :)

XP will have updates until 2014 as the OP stated. 32/64 both.

Enterprise my friend..LOL. Never heard of corp?

You're saying 50% of the businesses out there using it are complete idiots I guess? Whatever...I'm used to win7 but the file explorer is TERRIBLE. XP was far more usable. My mouse didn't jump down all the time either like it does on 2 pc's in my house both with different hardware. There are bugs they just won't fix and I'm not the only one with the issues. They don't even respond regarding this stuff on technet etc.

"Discovering files"...LOL. WHAT?
"calculating"...WHAT? FFS, just copy my damned files and shut up :) No rightclick-repair on network connections? WTF? Retarded. I could go on and on about win7 being a step backwards in many areas. But the Windows Explorer is the worst. XP was awesome in this.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By JPForums on 11/19/2012 10:11:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Name a piece of hardware that doesn't work with XP.
A whole slew of newer motherboards starting with the not so new 700 series (AMD) chipsets have at least one component that doesn't work with XP. Most of the time it is the audio card, though AHCI drivers for newer SATA controllers have also had issues. Some USB 3.0 chipsets are also unsupported. Quite a few newer wireless addon cards have issue. Clearly you haven't tried putting XP on a newer laptop as almost nothing works with many of them. Do I really need to get into printers/scanners.

The rest of your post I largely agree with.
quote:
Enterprise my friend.
Especially this.
quote:
XP will have updates until 2014
And this.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By TheJian on 11/18/2012 12:26:18 PM , Rating: 2
There are drivers for everything on XP64. All nics, Creative cards, Nvidia/AMD vid cards, Intel chipsets, what more you need? Some say server 2003, but they generally work fine (my edimax N card is an example). I don't have anything that isn't supported for xp64. It will get updates until mid 2014 too ;) XP64 is rock solid too. I've never had trouble with any games either. Only thing missing is DX11. But who cares for now. There's not enough of a graphical difference to be worth paying MS again for most people (though I have a lic anyway, but only because I'm on the cert treadmill).


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By kleinma on 11/19/2012 9:29:41 AM , Rating: 2
This is how I feel about Dos 6.22. If only Dos 32 bit was more mainstream.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By StevoLincolnite on 11/17/2012 1:12:07 AM , Rating: 3
Allot of people I know are still happy with their old Core 2 Duo's/Athlon X2's and integrated graphics with 2gb of ram.
They just don't see any need to upgrade as it handles all their facebook needs with ease.
Plus it doesn't help that the entire developed world minus a few countries like Australia had/having massive financial woes which makes the idea of spending hundreds on a new machine a tough pill to swallow for allot of people.

Heck, allot of gamers I noticed are still running with heavily overclocked Core 2 Quads because games just aren't that demanding with the majority being merely console ports.
Sure you might need a new GPU every few years...

Seriously, take a look at the Steam hardware survey, 50% of gamers are still using a Dual-Core processor, 40% are using Direct X 10 graphics cards still and the average Ram amount per machine is 4gb.
Which consequently other than a couple of demanding games like Battlefield 3 or Crysis will handle everything, albeit in some cases with some graphics options lowered.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By TakinYourPoints on 11/17/2012 2:48:16 AM , Rating: 3
I've been on an i7 860 for three years and I have very little pressure to upgrade, especially after getting a GTX 680. I'm going to go Haswell next year just for the heck of it, mainly because my gut tells me I'm supposed to upgrade every 18-24 months like how I always have...

The only reason I'm going GTX 680 is because I have a 1440p monitor, otherwise I'd have as little pressure to get better video like the examples you brought up.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By haukionkannel on 11/17/2012 5:58:59 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly! To most people computer have been fast enough for many years so there is not any reason for them to upgrade! That is allso reason for pads to become so popular because most things that people do can be done with pads.
For gaming and video editing etc there are not fast enough computers in the market, but Joe Average is just fine with core2 or even slover machine. And when economy is what it it at this moment... well the peoples starts buying new machines when the old brokes down... and they will buy small and cheap mobile computers.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 12:31:55 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps the next console generation will push for better PCs. Sadly, one reason why the need for faster hardware has stagnated is that consoles are the primary target platform, thus lowering the ceiling for required hardware.

That's only one thing, of course. Envelope pushing games don't really sell anymore, just look at Crysis. It isn't like 2000 where people would go out of their way to get faster hardware to play Quake 3 very well. The most successful companies like Valve and Blizzard target a very wide range of hardware now, and the most successful game at the moment, League Of Legends, runs on pretty much anything.

I dunno, maybe the next console generation will push the PC end forward, but there's still a lot to be said for PC games that target a very wide range of hardware. Developers want to make money and the model of initial $50-$60 purchases is falling aside as free-to-play/microtransaction and subscription models take over. Volume matters most in that case, which means not going after uber-hardware. We'll see.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By rdhood on 11/19/2012 12:23:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Seriously, take a look at the Steam hardware survey, 50% of gamers are still using a Dual-Core processor, 40% are using Direct X 10 graphics cards still and the average Ram amount per machine is 4gb.


That was/is me. I have one dual core intel processor (Core 2 Duo 4300) left still running (since 2006/2007). I replaced an E6300 about two months ago when the motherboard stopped booting. I replaced it with a 6 core AMD Phenom 1045 + mother board and 8 GB of memory.. all for under $135.

The Core2Duo processors were the first bunch of processors that I never upgraded just to upgrade. They are/were powerful enough to hang onto until the MB/Processor died in some way. Still, they are plenty powerful enough to run Windows 7, and their replacements (in my case, AMD Phenom 6 core processor) are 5x the performance for a very minimal upgrade cost.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By B3an on 11/17/2012 3:57:03 PM , Rating: 2
These don't include Windows 8 sales, regardless of what the stupid title says. Dells Q3 results are for July, August and September.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By JPForums on 11/19/2012 10:41:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
These don't include Windows 8 sales, regardless of what the stupid title says. Dells Q3 results are for July, August and September.
This is pretty much all that needs to be said regarding Win8.

Dell's Q3 was lower than expected.
Win8 may or may not help them out, but that won't be know until after the new year.


RE: Windows 8 the savior ???
By stimudent on 11/19/2012 8:56:37 AM , Rating: 2
There is no enthusiasm for Windows 8 that I've seen so far. Why rush to upgrade a PC when you don't use it as much as you once did, is the thinking.
Also, it seems that so far, corporate IT guys aren't taking Win8 seriously for a business OS.


well
By kleinma on 11/16/2012 10:39:28 PM , Rating: 5
Step 1 to turning things around: Stop making crap.




RE: well
By FlyBri on 11/17/2012 8:53:28 AM , Rating: 2
Amen to that. Also, they need to get some half decent customer service, or even understand what customer service is. I'm convinced there is a culture problem at Dell. I ended up having to take them to small claims court due to them refusing to service my laptop while it was still under warranty. They didn't do the right thing at any point in the whole ordeal - not after the countless hours with managers both here and in India, after filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, and even after I went to court, refused to give a decent settlement.

Not only that, but I also spoke with and "executive level" person at their corporate headquarters, and they were rude enough to accuse me of "trying to blackmail them" (which, when I reacted to that comment the woman immediately started backpedaling and profusely apologizing). Worst experience ever. If my story doesn't sum up what is wrong with Dell, I don't know what does.


RE: well
By JPForums on 11/19/2012 10:51:07 AM , Rating: 2
Thank you for that.
Another shining example of customer service that I can use dissuade people from choosing Dell. (I've been collecting them)
This makes 8 stories of this level I can tell.
So yes, this does in fact point to a culture problem at Dell.


RE: well
By crispbp04 on 11/17/2012 12:46:11 PM , Rating: 2
this goes for most lazy PC makers. It was easy when nobody innovated and everything looked like crap. It was a simple formula. 1) make a sh*t PC with subpar parts. 2) sell it at a 40% margin. 3) profit.

The only pc companies being creative today are Asus, Lenovo, and to a lesser extent Samsung. Everyone else is missing the boat.


RE: well
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 11:21:10 PM , Rating: 2
Amazingly, racing to the bottom hasn't been a long-term winning strategy. Companies that are doing well are Lenovo and Apple, ones that haven't cut corners on quality or customer service. Asus also seems to be turning it around with the Zenbook Prime.

HP/Dell/Gateway/Acer/etc have become associated with crap because that's all they've turned out in the consumer market, and all people see them good for now are cheap machines with razor thin profit margins. It is a downward spiral of crap that they've trapped themselves into.


Not everyone needs a computer anymore
By Nyu on 11/17/2012 3:25:09 AM , Rating: 1
A lot of people are content nowadays with just a smartphone and/or tablet, all those barely using email and facebook and such, PC market was bound to shrink with all this.




RE: Not everyone needs a computer anymore
By vXv on 11/18/2012 5:53:21 AM , Rating: 2
It isn't really about needing a computer but about needing a new computer.

The computer they have is "good enough" so instead of buying new ones people spend there money on "toys" (tablets).


By Tony Swash on 11/18/2012 3:14:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It isn't really about needing a computer but about needing a new computer.

The computer they have is "good enough" so instead of buying new ones people spend there money on "toys" (tablets).


Go back to the dawn of the PC era and you would have heard this:

"It isn't really about needing a minicomputer but about needing a new minicomputer.

The minicomputer they have is "good enough" so instead of buying new ones people spend there money on "toys" (Personal Computers)."


It's not that the minicomputer disappeared or that there are aren't people making money selling them it's the fact that minicomputers just don't impinge on people's lives, they are necessary but not very interesting or relevant to the vast majority of people using computers. SuchI think will be the fate of the PC in the medium term, I think Microsoft know that and hence the desperate gamble that is Windows 8, an attempt to contain the disruption of the PC markets and to create a migration path for Microsoft as a business into the new device markets. I think all W8 will achieve is to hasten the disruption of the PC ecosystem and, from Microsoft's point of view, not in a good way.


Tablet pricing
By Disorganise on 11/17/2012 5:59:39 AM , Rating: 2
Have to say I think a big part of the problem is tablets. why would you buy a desktop at $1000+ when you can buy a tablet for the same or less?
yes a desktop is more versatile but to my mum etc, who cares.

and Windows 8 is never gonna be a savior since I don't see most businesses deploying it, which leaves the consumer market....which is moving to tablets. if Dell could release a 'pro' tablet that could dual boot Windows pro and Android then they could be on a winner.




RE: Tablet pricing
By damianrobertjones on 11/17/2012 1:09:02 PM , Rating: 2
As a business we are updating to Windows 8 as we have a site licence.

As for tablets... There's zero way that Android in any flavour is touching the internal network.. ever. (Bluestacks!)

The real question: Where is the Dell Latitude 10?


RE: Tablet pricing
By martyrant on 11/18/2012 6:45:27 PM , Rating: 1
your company is upgrading to win8? can I ask who you work for so as to avoid them like the plague?


Change
By Ammohunt on 11/16/2012 11:08:20 PM , Rating: 2
The consumer market is fastly moving away from desktop and even laptops towards portbles. Dell should know this and should have had a plan to compete in those markets.




Dell Streak...
By kmmatney on 11/17/2012 4:19:02 AM , Rating: 2
It's funny that they came out with the 5" Streak phone way before the Galaxy Note, yet it didn't sell. The world wasn't ready for a 5" smartphone back in 2009, and Android wsn't very good back then either. They had the right idea, but the hardware and software just weren't there yet, and they lost their chance.

I have an iPhone and like iOS, but I played with a Galaxy Note II the other day, and I love the big screen. A big phone doesn't seem so strange anymore, and unless Apple comes out with something a lot bigger, I'll be switching to Android.




Tablet pricing
By Disorganise on 11/17/2012 6:08:52 AM , Rating: 2
Have to say I think a big part of the problem is tablets. why would you buy a desktop a $1000+ when you can buy a tablet for the same or less?
yes a desktop is more versatile but to my mum etc, who cares.

and Windows 8 is never gonna be a savior since I don't see most businesses deploying it, which leaves the consumer market....which is moving to tablets. if Dell could release a 'pro' tablet that could dual boot Windows pro and Android then they could be on a winner.




By Cannyone on 11/18/2012 9:36:52 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously I didn't think that I wanted Windows 8. But behind the Touch Screen UI it does have a lot of evolutionary improvements. Like the way it checks a UEFI BIOS to make sure it hasn't been compromized before it begins the boot sequence... So I decided to try it and investigate methods for working around Metro.

What I found is called Classic Shell. It works. It's free. And it makes Windows 8 far more usable IMHO. So now I'm "upgrading" both of my systems to 8.

But, like many here, as a tech I can't recommend Windows 8 to most people. If you have Windows 7 you'll be fine. There just isn't that great difference in real world performance. And unless you have the latest hardware its unlikely that you'll be able to take advantage of the improvements.




OMG this article is such BS
By diazea on 11/19/2012 5:25:28 PM , Rating: 2
Wow! DailyTech I visit your site every day multiple times. You don't need to resort to sensationalist BS to get people to visit. Did you actually just report that an OS that was NOT RELEASED failed to have impact on Dell's financials? Windows 8 is 3 weeks old. Poor form.

And the people mentioning XP in the year 2012 as "THE OS" to hold on to. You simply sound ridiculous at this point. Your like my kids grandfather. He wont change his flip phone for a smart phone because it does "everything" he needs. For the love of all that is good get Windows 7 or stick Linux on your full tower, CRT based, 8XCDRom machine. I would say get Windows 8 but that lack of start menu would probably cause your head to explode.




no thanks
By namhuy on 11/17/12, Rating: 0
Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: Some advice.........
By nikon133 on 11/17/2012 2:32:58 PM , Rating: 3
Same model iOS segment is following. Pumping faster hardware but no significant changes otherwise is always something to worry about; sooner or later, hardware becomes so fast that for majority of users, another speed increase becomes meaningless... what is happening in PC world these days.

MS is, at least, trying to reinvent UI, while Google is trying to provide flexibility and means for users to "reinvent" UI to their individual needs.

Apple these days is only providing more GHz, more pixels... in same, old, tired, boring OS that provides as much customization as politically correct wardrobe in Mao Zedong China...

Of course, there is always massive inertia that follows up big companies. Trends don't change over night... but I'm pretty sure Apple's decline has started. Small signs are showing already. Strange un-Apple moves leadership is pulling. Losing sales to Android. Stock value decline for 8 weeks in a row.

So many people I know - many of them Apple users - are not even aware iPad 4 is out. And iPad Mini, no excitement at all.


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/17/2012 2:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
Yup... Apple will continue to be very profitable, but the growth period is over... Unless they start innovating again. IOS is totally stagnating while everyone else is passing them by. Android and Winmobile are already better than IOS, and BB OS10 looks to be as well.


RE: Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/17/2012 3:41:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yup... Apple will continue to be very profitable, but the growth period is over... Unless they start innovating again.


We should revisit your theory when the next quarterly results are in.

I see plenty of evidence that Apple has ample room to continue to grow in it's important product markets and that demand for Apple's products continues to grow.

Sometimes a key innovation or two at just the right inflection point can carry a company a long way - look at MS-Dos and Windows 95 :)

One error I think people make when trying to judge Apple's prospects or understand it's recent staggering success is to look at individual products rather than what Apple has assembled as a whole, the entire value stack.

To take one example: in the consumer market and the mobile devices market channels are far more important than in the old PC market and here Apple's retail operation is both unique in design, best of class in terms of performance and a decade ahead of what most of the competition has deployed.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/13/apple-store...

Similarly Apple also has by far the best content stack of any device maker.

http://www.macstories.net/stories/mapping-the-ente...

Microsoft on the other hand has once again taken the 'one Windows everywhere' approach and I think it may cost them dearly.



RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/17/2012 7:36:21 PM , Rating: 2
You are forgetting that the competition has surpassed them. Privious growth was based on having a better product then competitors... They don't have that anymore.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 12:24:54 AM , Rating: 3
Surpassed in what way? iOS is still running on the fastest hardware with some of the best battery life (double the LTE and wifi browsing time of the S3) and the best app selection.

The gap has closed, certainly. Android was undeniable trash even a year ago and ICS and JB have gone a long way to address old problems, but "surpassed" is stretching credibility unless you want a 5" screen, a keyboard, or an SD card slot.

And if we're talking growth, it really can't be ignored that the bulk of Android growth hasn't been in the high end, it has been in cheap and not very capable devices sold to the poor (no-contract devices sold by Boost Mobile/Virgin) and in third world countries. Sales figures aside, there's still the fact that the bulk of mobile internet traffic and app usage is in iOS, despite lower overall marketshare.

So again, "surpass" is a bit of an odd thing to brag about unless one is proud of how many low end devices your mobile OS runs on.


RE: Some advice.........
By vXv on 11/18/2012 6:01:46 AM , Rating: 2
I still have an 3 year old iPhone 3GS (I don't buy a new phone every few months) .. but now is time to replace it and looking at the available options I see no reason why I should go with a newer iPhone. I will probably go with the Nexus 4 it offers a way better price / performance ratio then any other phone on the market ... Google / LG just has to have some in stock ...


RE: Some advice.........
By nikon133 on 11/18/2012 4:30:28 PM , Rating: 2
Same here.

My 3Gs is running iOS5 (have skipped on iOS6 because maps are really quite useless here in New Zealand). If I get iPhone 5, I'll get faster, slimmer device with bigger/higher res screen... but I will be using it exactly the same way I've been using my 3Gs since mid 2009. No significant changes, no improvements, no new ideas. For my usage scenario, notifications were probably the only "innovation" that happened since iOS3. Folders, maybe. Yay for folders.

I'm still undecided between high end WP8 and high end Android, but as it is, iPhone it is not going to be.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 4:47:25 PM , Rating: 2
I don't understand how going to a Nexus 4, a device that is second-tier even by Android device standards, is an improvement. It is cheap, sure, and hopefully the OS is kept up to date unlike most Android hardware out there, but that's pretty much it.

If you can spend the extra coin then there are certainly better devices out there, the iPhone 5 being the fastest with the best software. If you want to mess around with something different then I understand, even if its a step back.


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 7:50:28 PM , Rating: 2
Clearly you don't understand... see Nikon's post for some insight. IOS is stagnant.


RE: Some advice.........
By martyrant on 11/18/2012 9:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
You should stop feeding the troll, he is obviously an iDiot in denIal.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 9:15:32 PM , Rating: 2
I understand perfectly.

Speed and functionality via apps mean more to me than fiddling with home screens. Android isn't even the best in that regard, WP is with its Live Tiles.

If you want a change of pace or want to fiddle, then I guess Android is cool. I like actually using my mobile devices, so I'll stick with iOS until something better comes along.


RE: Some advice.........
By vXv on 11/20/2012 7:30:16 AM , Rating: 2
Well lets see what I use my iPhone for:

1) Phone calls
2) Texting
3) Reading mails
4) Navigation
5) Web browsing
6) Alarm
7) Kill time playing causal games
8) Sometimes IM / Skype

The Nexus 4 should do all of them just fine and the larger screen is better for 4, 5 and probably 7, while cost the half of the other options iPhone5 or Samsung S3.

It does not have LTE but LTE does not really exist in this country.

And pretty much any option is not a step back from a 3GS (and actually Android 4+ does not look like a step back to me) ;)


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 8:09:05 AM , Rating: 2
"Surpassed in what way?"

You really want to see the list again? In pretty much every way. Faster OS, even on slower hardware. Better UI, better features, more than 5x4 icons, faster voice search, better mapping software, NFC, Multi user support (for tablets), photospere, flexibility, Micro SD card better looking, Plug and play as a flash drive to copy files, all while supporting multiple chipsets and screen resolutions. While we are there, you can get larger screens, way higher res screens, micro USB, removable batteries etc etc... See vXv's reply for more info =)

In what way indeed. LOL


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 4:42:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Faster OS, even on slower hardware.


You're joking, right?

Multi-user support is the big thing iOS is missing on tablets, it is ridiculous that it isn't there yet. Everything else you've mentioned either doesn't outweigh the benefits of iOS (for me at least) or are just flat out false.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 4:44:09 PM , Rating: 2
And as for vXv's reply, the Nexus 4 he is considering is far slower, doesn't have LTE, and doesn't have SD card expansion (something you keep hammering on about).

How does him going for a phone that only has the benefit of being cheap help your points in any way?


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 8:08:51 PM , Rating: 2
That is the glory of Android. You get what you need. He doesn't need 4g or SD card or rem. batt. so he can get a cheaper phone. I want those things with a big screen and there are options for me as well. You want that on iPhone? Nope. No options.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 9:30:30 PM , Rating: 2
Low end options don't really concern me. Yeah, its cool, but the low end isn't my thing. My PC is a powerhouse, that doesn't mean that I brag about the Windows marketshare based on the fact that its mainly on $400 econoboxes.

Bragging about Android's marketshare based on how many low end devices it is on is weird to me. It is like bragging about how popular McDonald's is. Who cares? When Android has the majority of the smartphone market but is still a lower portion than iOS of web traffic, app downloads, and mobile ad revenue, all it tells me is that Android is mainly on devices that are barely better than a flip phone. And it is, its mostly on the trash no-contract phones you get on Boost Mobile or poor countries.

So if Android is on the bulk of low end devices, um, good for you I guess? I'll take the best of the high end myself, thanks.

As for options, if being on the iPhone "limits" me to the fastest hardware with the best battery in its size class and the best apps, well darn it, guess those are limitations I'll have to live with.


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 11:27:20 PM , Rating: 2
Whatever floats your best man. You buy the best phone for you and let others do the same. I totally disagree with the root of your logic but we will have to agree to disagree. With that said we should easily agree that I am right and you are wrong. LOL


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/19/2012 1:46:36 AM , Rating: 2
I have always said that if someone wants bigger screens, keyboards, SD cards, tinkering/rooting their OS, sideloading apps, or cheaper low end devices, that those options are out there with Android and that people should buy them. Hell, I've advocated Windows Phone long before it was "ok" to do so. I think it has many of its own benefits, namely UI and huge potential with apps due to its SDK and programming languages. If you value the best hardware with the highest quality apps and the best centralized OS/vendor support, then iOS devices are generally the way to go.

Its all about pros and cons and tradeoffs.

I've always spoken in tradeoffs, a far cry from the one-dimensional "hurr durr Android rules Apple drools" circlejerk that goes around here.

PS - LOL :)


RE: Some advice.........
By JPForums on 11/19/2012 9:43:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
When Android has the majority of the smartphone market but is still a lower portion than iOS of web traffic, app downloads, and mobile ad revenue, all it tells me is that Android is mainly on devices that are barely better than a flip phone.

An alternate scenario for your consideration:
Android is indeed on highend phones, perhaps breaking roughly even with Apple on the high end. People who buy into highend Android are (in general) power users that may download fewer apps from the marketplace because they can get them elsewhere ... without the ads. Frankly, I wouldn't brag about iOS having more ad revenue. It just means you are getting bombarded by more adds. Until you tell me the source of iOS vs android web traffic numbers I can only speculate that they can't necessarily properly identify the preponderance of unique web browsers Android has. (Particularly if they default to the non-mobile versions of the webpage with their monstrous sized phones.) In conclusion, Apple has done a wonderful job of monetizing your purchase by making sure that any apps you buy come from them and you have no (sanctioned) way to subvert a potentially increasing number of advertisements coming directly to your phone.

Or you could be absolutely correct and nobody buys high end android. Given the number of high-end android phones available, I tend to think the answer lies somewhere in between.

Apple does hands down the best job with power efficiency. It seems to be true across multiple product lines. I'm sure there is a trade off, but thus far they've done a fine job keeping it hidden. The screen res goes back and forth, but Apple currently has a fair lead. Further, Apple has always made sure that the screen is at least good, even if they weren't the best at times. The A-series SoCs are impressive SoCs, easily among the best. However, despite being the "uncontested" leader in the GPU space, there are games on the market with effects that can only be used on the (relatively) weak nVidia SoCs. I have to wonder if the GPU power is focused in the wrong area going forward. A certain industry leading PC graphics card company no longer in existence kept blindly pushing things like fill rates while ignoring texture and lighting (or vertex/pixel shaders). Still at the moment the A-series processors are pretty dominant.

Android is far more customizable than iOS. It also legitimately scales the spectrum from small devices to large ones and from low end devices to high end. Though its biggest strength (for those that want it) is probably the fact that Apple/Google doesn't get to dictate to Android users what Apps they have access to or what program is required to get data/media on and off the device.

As far as apps go, I've seen the spectrum from golden calf to steaming pile on all platforms. Even first party apps are occasionally lemons. The only real distinguishing feature between Android and iOS apps is perhaps that, with android, you have to make sure you trust the author of applications that you get outside of the market place. I consider this as a responsibility that comes with the freedom.

Interestingly, the mantra of just works apparently goes to Windows Phone. They don't have the same number of apps, though they apparently have a fair amount. They can't match the hardware (err, haven't checked out the latest). They try to strike a proper balance between Apples total lock down and Androids free for all, but come off as less than convincing as they lean pretty heavily in Apples direction. However, despite the low end hardware, the experience is smooth. More importantly, I have yet to crash a Windows Phone. A feat I've accomplished within a weeks normal use on an iPhone 3G and an iPhone 4 and within a few hours use of an HTC Evo 4G and a Samsung Galaxy S3. That said, if you learn the quirks, it is largely a non issue.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 5:00:53 PM , Rating: 3
I'm amazed that you mentioned faster performance on slower hardware, btw. I thought I could count on you being at least a little more balanced than the standard Fandroid, but bringing up superior performance on slower hardware speaks of either surprising ignorance or delusion that would make a Mactard jealous.

Even when WP7 was briefly on decent hardware it was far smoother and snappier on slower clocked hardware than Android, and the same has always been the case with iOS. iOS has consistently run circles around Android hardware running at 30%-50% faster clock speeds. Part of it is Android (even JB) being a comparatively inefficient OS, and another part of it is the difference between Java and Objective-C/C/C++ performance in applications that do use Java. Android simply needs more horsepower, which translates to the need for larger batteries, which drives larger chassis/screens, and so on.

Again, its fine if you bring up things like bigger screens, SD card slots, keyboards, whatever, those are legitimate reasons to go with something else, but keep it in the realm of reality.


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 7:59:59 PM , Rating: 2
My point by that is the OS is just better. It flows better even on the old OMAP in the G nexus. Dang dood, you seem to be in serious denial about the OS. Even Tony doesn't debate that point anymore... and Testerguy is buying a Nexus 4. LOL. Your minority is shrinking more each week that goes by with each powerhouse Android phone announced and feature update released. Android 4.2 brings more improvements , while IOS 6 may as well be called IOS 3.3

I know your dinosaur works for you but most people prefer to get more and pay less


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 9:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
No it isn't, the old OMAP on the Galaxy Nexus is noticeably choppier than iOS on the older iPhone 4! What world are you living in? This has been the case for years, and the gap continues still.

There is no denial here, the difference in performance is something that even Google is well aware of and has been trying to address with each release of Android.

In the end the best Android devices are still slower than the iPhone 5, with half the LTE browsing time, and with an inferior app market.

Powerhouse Android phones? Point me to them, please. Right now your position is based on being proud of the sheer volume of low end devices out there, not the quality of the high end.


RE: Some advice.........
By TakinYourPoints on 11/18/2012 9:43:27 PM , Rating: 3
I'm still surprised that you guys here are in denial to this degree.

Even the biggest Android fan has at least copped to choppier UI performance than iOS and WP, now I'm hearing revisionism from you guys that Android was always smoother to begin with, something that it finally (and barely) caught up with in JB. Actually, it still isn't as smooth as iOS6 on the iPhone 5.

Then you talk about performance being better on Android devices when it objectively isn't (even on the international Galaxy S3), and you talk about superior battery life when the S3 has literally half the LTE browse time of an iPhone 5. The difference in app quality continues, but it either "doesn't exist" or "doesn't matter". Whatever.

And the basis of Android's popularity is on the massive volume of low end devices out there, something you either sweep under the rug or that you're proud of.

They say that the RDF is restricted to Apple fans but clearly it isn't, amazing! What fantasy are you going to cook up next?


RE: Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/19/2012 9:12:38 AM , Rating: 2
I have to say that this whole thread reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J3SdBAhhFA


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/19/2012 9:36:48 AM , Rating: 2
LOL... OK it is kind of ridiculous, we can all admit that, assuming that you are lumping yourself in with the rest of us. Defending a company on the internet is pretty much your claim to fame here at AT/DT. ;)


RE: Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/19/2012 10:46:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
assuming that you are lumping yourself in with the rest of us


Totally. None of this makes any sense nor does it have any true significance and at the same time one can feel very passionate about it. My definition of a hobby :)

BTW this cartoon has become a running joke between me and my wife :)

http://www.mattcutts.com/images/duty_calls.png


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/19/2012 3:08:26 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... True.

What a bunch of dorks.


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/20/2012 11:55:18 AM , Rating: 2
"is has been the case for years,"

BTW, WTH are you going on about here? For years? The Galaxy Nexus hasnt even been out 1 year.

"I'm hearing revisionism from you guys that Android was always smoother"

Again, who said that? I am talking about Jelly Bean, it came out a few months ago. Older chips like the OMAP on the Galaxy Nexus running Jelly runs fast.

I know you like to massively up-play Apple's advantages, but your whole argument is just mistaken. OK, we arent buying Gingerbread phones in late 2012. It's JellyBean now, consider any conversation to be about today, not last year. As far as the fastest chip, yes, Apple gets that, but its a bit like me saying my Ivy bridge i7 is faster than your Nehalem i7. Both are crazy fast and the difference is tiny in 99.9% of all situations. Honestly, this gross exaggeration of any Apple advantage is tiring. You do it with speed, apps, LCD. Its kind of silly at this point.


RE: Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/18/2012 6:15:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are forgetting that the competition has surpassed them. Privious growth was based on having a better product then competitors... They don't have that anymore.


I love the way an article and a comment touching on the obvious weakening of the Windows ecosystem and business has morphed into a series of comments about the imagined failure or weakening of Apple. iPhobes are the biggest Apple obsessives in town.

The company that the competition has well and truly surpassed is of course Microsoft :) Which I find very pleasing indeed.


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 8:14:07 AM , Rating: 2
Hey, I agree about Windows on a downward path... I was replying to someone that said Apple is headed down, and I said they are not. I said They will remain highly profitable. Where they are today is absolutely astounding as far as profits. If they stay where they are now, they are forever healthy, its a great place to be... I simply inserted that the insane growth rate that they enjoyed for the past 5 years is over. They had a better product and cached in... They no longer have a better product. Your prediction of $1000 stock is a laugher. Again though, they wont go up much from here, but "here" is extremely good.


RE: Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/18/2012 1:05:35 PM , Rating: 2
Leaving aside our differences of opinion I thought you might find this amusing. It's a business card for an Apple specialist. His name is Sam Sung.

http://c414155.r55.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uplo...


RE: Some advice.........
By retrospooty on 11/18/2012 3:50:57 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... Awesome.


RE: Some advice.........
By Tony Swash on 11/17/2012 3:46:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
So many people I know - many of them Apple users - are not even aware iPad 4 is out. And iPad Mini, no excitement at all.


You mean other than the queues of people waiting to buy them and the three million sold in the opening weekend?

We both know that the iPad will outsell every other model of tablet several times over this coming holiday season.

iPad Mini sales will not be 'modest' :)


“And I don't know why [Apple is] acting like it’s superior. I don't even get it. What are they trying to say?” -- Bill Gates on the Mac ads

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