General Motors announced
today in a public webcast that the Volt will be rated an an
impressive 230 mpg in the city. The combined city/highway fuel
economy rating for the Volt will still be rated at over 100 mpg.
The 230 mpg rating is no doubt boosted
by the fact that the Volt can travel a total of 40 miles on battery
power alone before the gasoline engine/generator has to kick in to
keep the vehicle moving. Once the initial 40 miles is exhausted, the
Volt can travel an additional 300+ miles through the use of the
For comparison, Toyota's hot-selling
Prius is rated at 51
mpg city and 48 mpg highway (50 mpg combined). Nissan's upcoming
LEAF EV will travel a total of 100 miles before exhausting its
lithium-ion battery pack. However, unlike the Volt, the LEAF doesn't
have a gasoline engine/generator as a backup when the battery is
While the Volt will definitely have an
EPA mileage advantage over both the Prius and the LEAF, both vehicles
will significantly undercut Chevrolet's offering. The Prius currently
starts at $22,000 and a new $21,000 model will hit dealer lots in
September. The LEAF is being billed as "the world's first
affordable, zero-emission car," so pricing will like be well
The Volt will retail for over $40,000
-- a figure that even took
GM Vice-Chairman Bob Lutz by surprise. "When I said I hope
to sell it in the 20s, I just thought, well, if a conventional car of
that size with a conventional four-cylinder engine, we can sell it
for $15,000 or $16,000, then let's notionally add $8,000 for the
battery and we're at $25,000," said Lutz in an interview with
GM CEO Fritz Henderson repeatedly
commented during the webcast that the price of the Volt is indeed
high, but that is the result of it being a first generation vehicle.
Henderson added the prices will come down with the second generation
Volt and the GM engineers are already hard at work on second
Other vehicles announced by General
Motors today include a new Cadillac ATS compact which will do battle
with the BMW 3-Series, a replacement for Cadillac's long-in-the-tooth
DTS called the XTS, and CTS Coupe/CTS-V SportWagon models.
quote: Yeah, I know it is 1st generation yadda, yadda....
quote: $25 more per month in electricity and $100 less per month in gasoline. Yeah I can handle that.
quote: "$25 more in electricity per month? Somehow, I thought it would be lower. The thing is, will that extra $25 put you in a higher usage bracket with your electric company? "
quote: At $4 gasoline even a Prius is more like 8.5 cents per mile.
quote: A "smaller" battery pack doesn't provide enough draw to power the vehicle at reasonable accelerations
quote: Accelerating to highway speed on a short uphill onramp requires a massive power draw
quote: You can't do that with a tiny power pack.
quote: Provide enough "draw"? What is that?
quote: Sure you can. It won't have much capacity, but it'll be capable of outputting a high amperage for a short period of time. Capacitors are commonly used for this task.
quote: Same thing goes for when you accelerate quickly, It will need energy to provide spark and sometimes your alternator will not be able to keep up so it takes a bit from your battery and then when your speed averages out the alternator charges it right back up.
quote: Unless they don't drive in ideal conditions, like traffic jams or heavy foot.
quote: Unless their battery pack isn't new anymore
quote: Unless it's cold out so they have sub-optimal storage, capacity, and acceleration.
quote: I see it a lot like my laptop. They claim a little over 3 hours. 2 years later forget about using it, rather than idling, for 100 minutes. I appreciate that the 3 hour rating was marketing department BS, but do we believe GM doesn't have a marketing dept?
quote: Traffic jams (stop and go traffic) don't significantly impact the range of electric vehicles
quote: Since the lights, radio, and air conditioning combined use significantly less power than the electric motor uses to move the vehicle, the net effect is small
quote: it's designed to get 40mi on that 50% at the END of it's useful life. When new, you might get 1.5x-2x that.
quote: They have systems designed to keep the battery from getting too hot or too cold, even when the vehicle is off
quote: They don't impact it as much as for a gas vehicle, but they certainly cause a large loss of mileage.
quote: The lights and radio, sure. But the A/C and heater both draw a large amount of power. Sit in a traffic jam with either one on for a while, and your range will quickly evaporate.
quote: The whole point of the 80%-30% charge cycle is to prevent significant deterioration of the battery over its lifespan. The range is spec'd at the beginning of the car's life, but (according to GM), it shouldn't drop much over the next 10 years.
quote: Yes, and guess what? Those TAKE POWER. Leave your Volt out in the cold for several hours, and you'll eat into the charge.
quote: Therefore, range can actually increase slightly in stop and go driving.
quote: And where is your evidence?
quote: It will experience a loss of about 30%-50% capacity over that time.
quote: Go back and re-read GMs announcement and/or interviews, they specifically state that they expect the car to have a 40 mile range near the end of the battery's useful life.
quote: You're confused. Stop and go driving decreases range. Hybrids/electrics don't get better city mileage because it's stop and go, but because the speeds (and thus tyre/wind resistance) are so much lower). Stopping still hurts MPG, period.
quote: Past electric cars, pal. The A/C on past vehicles such as the EV1 would exhaust the battery in 45 minutes..
quote: Nice to make up a statistic, eh? I call shens on this.
quote: I wasn't challenging this. I was challenging your insane comment that the Volt would have a 60-80 mile range at the BEGINNING of its life.
quote: Couldn't they make one that just runs it off the generator and forget the first 40 mile charge?
quote: You just demonstrated the idiocy of your entire rant/comment right there.
quote: the "first generation" excuse
quote: Still, I have to pause at the $40k price tag for what looks like a Chevy Cobalt ($16k) size vehicle.
quote: However, buying a vehicle to compensate for other vehicles on the road has got to be the stupidest reasoning I can imagine
quote: Same holds true for being out in public without a car, so do skinny people think "I need to become fat so I have more defense against bigger people"?
quote: Me, I'd be plenty safe in a small car with reasonable handling and acceleration because once upon a time ago I realized...if some moron who can't drive their SUV is about to plow into you, you can do things like brake, accelerate, steer
quote: Wow, what a load. Of course if you don't give exact figures
quote: The US uses less than 25% of world oil. Fact.
quote: Furthermore, US oil usage has been static or even declining recently, while China's is rising at 10% or more per year. Other BRIC nations are also rising very fast.
quote: Other BRIC nations are also rising very fast.
quote: Overall, the United States applies more pressure against China
quote: Overall, our usage has increased since the 70's.
quote: You also ignore the reason why China has seen increased use- the United States
quote: Oil hasn't gone up from the $15/barrel days because US consumption has risen 3%. It's gone up because China and other BRIC nations are seeing their usage EXPLODE.
quote: Oh please. China is using oil because 1.2 billion people are no longer driving bicycles everywhere. They're the largest car market in the world right now.
quote: They may have over a billion people, but only about 15-20% of that even live in the modern world. Even fewer own a car.
quote: you missed my point- I had a problem with your ORIGINAL argument which implied that China was solely the reason for increase in cost of oil
quote: as well as your assertions that just because our global share of usage has gone down, it means that somehow, we aren't having an affect on prices
quote: Most of [China's] population still can't afford cars
quote: you're ignoring the US's increased military involvement in oil rich countries
quote: China and the rest of the developing world are the primasrily (though certainly not the sole) reason.
quote: The real pressure on oil prices comes from China, a country that now is buying more cars than we are (and tiny cars at that, for the most part)
quote: If our percent of total usage is declining, it means we're not the primary driver of increased prices. This is inescapable.
quote: What you've forgotten is that, even when 900 million Chinese can't afford cars, the 400 million who can are still a larger group than the entire USA.
quote: Despite this explosive growth, with 20 percent of the world’s population, Chinese citizens still own only 1.5 percent of the total number of cars in the world. This stands in stark contrast with the United States where Americans own 25 percent of the world’s cars with only 5 percent of the population.
quote: You're the one telling us to view more than a decade of history.
quote: You're the one telling us to view more than a decade of history. Ok, let's look back over the past 60-odd years. Where have most US military operations been?
quote: Wait... your getting confused
quote: The gains made in bringing the rest of the world "up to" the level of the United States -is- the principle reason why demand for oil increased.
quote: Personally, I hope they do buy tons of them...and keep the demand for gasoline down so my price to fill up my Navigator and F-150 stay cheap.
quote: by using a Volt type car, you have reduced the consumption of energy during transit a good 79%
quote: Your right, 2/3 of energy usage is due to transportation. This includes, Trucks, Buses, Planes, Ships, Trains, etc.
quote: If we build new High Efficieny Combined Cycle Plants and burned the gasoline in them, we can acchieve efficieny of 60% energy conversion
quote: 19 kWh * 90% (Tramission Losses are estimated at 7%, So again, I am favoring the gas car) * 90% (Charging inefficieny, again Lithium Ion typically is 95% or more so this favours the gas car)
quote: Converting to Electric Drive increases overall efficieny by 50%. IE, we could reduce our oil for transportation by 50%
quote: Your average power plant TODAY is not 60% efficient. It's a bit more than 40% IIRC.
quote: You're more accurate here, but you've forgotten conversion losses. You can't convert house AC to different-voltage DC without incurring a bite. Probably around 8-10% or so, though that would depend on how much Chevy spends on their electronics.
quote: Again, even assuming your efficiency number, the conclusion doesn't follow. A Volt is only "all electric" if you drive it under 40 miles per day. And even if you do that, almost half the oil used for transportation is for things besides personal cars.
quote: Your right. Well, Lithium Ion from DC is 99.9% efficient
quote: But I think its fairly clear that the 10-20% of Car transformed into electric drive over the next 10 years will
quote: "infinity miles per gallon"
quote: (their estimates have also been discredited many times
quote: brace the public for the 100% rate increases that will come about if the legislation was passed.
quote: Parking's free?
quote: With Photovotaics on your roof providing the elctricity..
quote: Winter or summer I think this would work really well on my place.
quote: Burning coal is not as polluting as burning gasoline-- and creating electricty from nuclear doesn't pollute at all.
quote: If you knew anything about the subject, you'd know that we don't even get the majority of our oil from middle east nations.
quote: Just because you and your supporters don't like to hold yourselves responsible for your own well being, it doesn't give you any right to try and guilt someone else into feeling like they owe YOU something because they don't.
quote: The answer is that there is no good answer to this. While I'd love to tell you that we can simply stop buying Middle Eastern oil, we can't.
quote: The technology is progressing so fast, we may not even need fuel in 100 years. I know it sounds absurd now, but go back and ask people in 1900 what they think about getting news from Twitter.
quote: You're throwing up red herrings. In reality, the US is more at military risk from the toys and dog food we buy from China, than the oil we purchase from OPEC. In 25 years, China will be a superpower equal to the US (sooner, if we keep cutting our military budget).
quote: Compared to them, the danger from any Middle Eastern country is basically zero.
quote: China is almost 30 years behind us in military technology...
quote: ... and almost 60 years behind is as a nuclear power
quote: How many thousands of Americans have been killed by the Chinese in the last ten years?
quote: How often do the Chinese publicly vow to kill the American infidels?
quote: ... and almost 60 years behind is as a nuclear power Huh? Where did you get this nonsense statistic? China has had nuclear weapons since the 1960s. They've been able to strike the US with nuclear ICBMS since the 1970s. They have MIRVs, nuclear cruise missles, enhanced-yield neutron bombs, and (other than some fancy tamper-implosion ultra-low yield devices) pretty much everything we do on a nuclear basis
quote: How many thousands of Americans have been killed by the Chinese in the last ten years?
quote: In 1938, how often were the Japanese vowing to kill the infidel Americans?
quote: The real danger is from a nation with a nuclear arsenal, and the means to deliver it en masse. An attack that can kill tens of millions in the blink of an eye, and hundreds of millions more in after effects.
quote: We're not in an arms race with China
quote: We're in far more of an arms race with China than we are with any Middle Eastern terrorist group. China is now building nuclear subs, aircraft carriers, and anti-satellite weapons.
quote: An alliance of China and Russia (for those of you who know history, they were allied against us not that long ago) could very easily threaten the US. Today, not in 30 years.
quote: We've basically destroyed our heavy industry capability in this country. We don't produce our own steel or most other metals any more. We produce less than a third of our energy, and without oil, we can't even grow our own food any more. The US is a lot more vulnerable than you think to geopolitique.
quote: Why would China and Russia ally against us?
quote: A nuke in a suitcase is more probably and more dangerous than Chinese nuclear weapons.
quote: These are ridiculous generalizations with minuscule relevance and accuracy.
quote: What price do you put on the oil you consume in: military actions, loss of US soldier lives in hostile territories in the middle-east, transfer of wealth from the US to countries like Saudi Arabia etc etc.
quote: However I know the algorithm they use to calculate how much you get is based on the MPG DIFFERENCE. So you probably wouldn't get much switching from anything really to a hummer
quote: Wrong. The "large trucks" category that is exempt from the MPG ratings is also exempt from that calculation. Trade in your old 16 MPG "guzzler" for a 10 MPG Hummer and you get a $4500 credit.
quote: In addition, work trucks may only be traded in for the purchase of a Category 2 truck or another Category 3 truck that is of similar size or smaller than the traded-in vehicle. Finally, the Act provides only for a $3,500 credit for trading in a work truck.