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Phillip Alpert was only 18 when he was charged and convicted as a sex offender for sending a naked picture of his 16-year-old girlfriend to her friends after a fight. He has since been kicked out of college, lost job offers, and will be marked as a sex offender untill the age of 43.  (Source: CNN)

How serious is "sexting" between teens? DA George Skumanick likens it to bank robbery. He considers himself giving teens a break, offering reeducation over jail time.  (Source: CNN)

Marissa Miller, was only 12 years old when she was charged with a sex offense by DA Skumanick. Her mother recruited an ACLU lawyer and is fighting her daughter being forced to take classes or face conviction and registration as a sex offender.  (Source: CNN)
Judge likens "sexting" to robbing a bank

Some issues in the realm of high-tech policing fall into the category of clear cut moral issues -- like prosecuting over child pornography, murders, or rapes.  However, a major debate is growing over a growing number of sex offense convictions being handed out to teens due to tech-related offenses.

This traditional legal issue has been accentuated by the trend to send picture messages via text message, email, or instant messenger.  Many teens are sending sexually provocative pictures of themselves, their classmates, or their significant others in a trend called "sexting".  Many of these teens are in turn receiving serious legal punishments.

Phillip Alpert was dating a 16 year-old sophomore at his high school when he was a senior.  Not long after he turned 18, he and his girlfriend got in a dispute.  He ended up forwarding text message sexually explicit pictures she had sent him to her friends and family members to embarrass her.

The move backfired.  Orlando, Florida police charged Mr. Alpert with the distribution of child pornography, as his girlfriend was underage.  He was convicted and sentenced to five years probation and was forced to register as a sex offender.  He states, "You will find me on the registered sex offender list next to people who have raped children, molested kids, things like that, because I sent child pornography.  You think child pornography, you think 6-year-old, 3-year-old little kids who can't think for themselves, who are taken advantage of. That really wasn't the case."

He has been kicked out of college, denied travel out of the county without making prior arrangements with his probation officer, lost job offers, and is faced with constant embarrassment from his neighbors and peers.

Mr. Alpert's attorney Larry Walters is still fighting to remove Mr. Alpert from the list of registered sex offenders.  He states, "Sexting is treated as child pornography in almost every state and it catches teens completely off guard because this is a fairly natural and normal thing for them to do. It is surprising to us as parents, but for teens it's part of their culture."

In total, nearly every state has laws that add people committing crimes against others legally defined as children in sex offender registries.  In thirty states, juvenile sex offenders also get added to such registries if they commit sex crimes, such as sexting.  Most states offer fully searchable sex offender registries to the public. 

Some prosecutors are giving the teens a break.  George Skumanick Jr., a district attorney from Wyoming County, Pennsylvania allowed 20 teens caught texting at a local school a choice between reeducation classes or jail.  He states, "An adult would go to prison for this.  If you take the photo, you've committed a crime. If you send the photo, you've committed a different crime, but essentially the same crime."

Critics of the laws, though, argue that teens sending sexually explicit pictures to each other is a natural urge and should not be punitively punished.  A district attorney tried to file charges against Marissa Miller of northeastern Pennsylvania and her friend, who snapped cell phone pictures of themselves in bras when they were 12 years old and sent them to a classmate.  Rather than facing jail or reeducation, Miller's parents have obtained an ACLU lawyer and are fighting the charges.  States her mother, "We believe she was the victim and that she did nothing wrong.  How can I ask her to compromise her values and write this essay, when she didn't do anything?"

Mr. Skumanick disagrees.  He likens sexting to bank robbery, stating, "You can't call committing a crime fun or a prank. If you do that, you can rob a bank because you think it's fun."

Perhaps the greatest troubling aspect of these laws, however, is their inconsistency.  In 2008 Jessica Logan, a Cincinnati, Ohio teen, hung herself over a nude picture sent to her friends by her 19 year old boyfriend she got in a fight with.  Despite the extreme nature of the case, the local police and the school that her boyfriend attended have thus far taken no legal action against him.



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WTF
By SlyNine on 4/9/2009 9:01:33 AM , Rating: 4
Mr. Skumanick disagrees. He likens sexting to bank robbery, stating, "You can't call committing a crime fun or a prank. If you do that, you can rob a bank because you think it's fun."

This guy has his head planted firmly in his ass. I guess he thinks these minors exploited themselves. Thus committed a crime. I just don't understand his logic.

I'm pretty sure the sex offender registry was created to protect minors, not prosicute them for what most would call expressing themselvs or simply put, being human.




RE: WTF
By otispunkmeyer on 4/9/2009 9:11:45 AM , Rating: 5
i know, i fail to see how taking pictures of yourself and sending them to girlfriend/boyfriend is in the same league as robbing a bank.... its not even the same game!!!

i send/ecieve pictures alot, though me an my girl are both 23 now. when you cant physically be together for whatever reason its a great way to try share yourselves in someway.

we wanna see each other naked because we're human, not because we're perverted.


RE: WTF
By Regs on 4/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: WTF
By Chocobollz on 4/10/2009 5:02:39 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah but you should go home now because I saw him going out together with your girl dude! ;-)


RE: WTF
By tmouse on 4/9/2009 10:37:16 AM , Rating: 5
While it's not perverted it is stupid, better hope you do not have a bad breakup and find your pictures plastered on some man love website. If she did she should be punished but would'nt you deserve some of the blame?


RE: WTF
By AEvangel on 4/9/2009 1:16:16 PM , Rating: 2
I don't agree she should not be punished by the law. I mean if your the dub ass that was "in love" and sent her pics of your junk. Then you break up and she posts them on some website or sends them to your friends so be it she is a bitch, but Jail time criminal record?? Get over it. you live and learn to be more discerning on who you trust is all.


RE: WTF
By TO on 4/9/2009 11:27:52 AM , Rating: 2
This prosecutor is just mad because when he was young he never got any play and he's taking his revenge out on theses kids because he's still a 60 year old virgin and probably gets a kick at looking at these pictures, because the law enables him to do so, cause he's "investigating" these cases. So he continues to pursue "investigating" more cases in order to see more nude underage kids. It's a power thing for him. There's no reason he should be victimizing these kids for his own benefit, kids will be kids. None of these cases were based on the intent of malicious dissemination of child pornography, it was young dumb kids, being dumb kids. This retard reminds me of a judge that wrongfully prosecuted me of speeding, 2 months later he was arrested for child molestation, he was a principle of a local grammar school and was found guilty of molesting over 300 children there while serving an "honor" in the local court system and judging others of right and wrong.


RE: WTF
By akugami on 4/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: WTF
By freeagle on 4/9/2009 4:21:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The parents of the 12 year old girls are full of crap as well. Taking pictures of yourself and then sending it out to others does not make you a victim. It means you had a moment of stupidity and that what you did was wrong but in no way does it make you a victim. I absolutely think the girls should be sent to classes and taught why it was wrong.


Wrong? What was wrong with it? Child sexual games are a very natural part of human (and other spieces) development and grow. You could argue about sending the pictures, but the initial play/game was not wrong in any way. Just because cultural and (mainly) religious influences made sex a bit of a tabu, doesn't mean it's not natural and therefor wrong.


RE: WTF
By thequoth on 4/9/2009 5:53:21 PM , Rating: 5
"The parents of the 12 year old girls are full of crap as well. Taking pictures of yourself and then sending it out to others does not make you a victim. It means you had a moment of stupidity and that what you did was wrong but in no way does it make you a victim. I absolutely think the girls should be sent to classes and taught why it was wrong."

It sounds more like the parents feel that it was not wrong for their children to send the pictures... and that they are victims to the legal system.

Based on that way of reading it... I would have to agree.


RE: WTF
By Wightout on 4/10/2009 12:46:41 AM , Rating: 5
Furthermore the article says that the photo in question is one of them in bras. I may not be a fashion expert but cant you go to a local beach and see more skin off girls in bathing suits then many types of lingerie.

I kinda want to know if while she is forced to register as a sex offender does she have to tell the neighbors when/if she moves or does her parents. Would be kinda strange to have a little girl walk up to the door and tell you that she is a registered sex offender.


RE: WTF
By jcbond on 4/14/2009 4:42:57 PM , Rating: 2
Would a 30 year old man in possession of pictures of a 12 year old girl in her bra be charged with child porn possession? I'm guessing so.
What if he teased and dared her to do so? He would probably still be charged and maybe (read should be) charged with a chunk more.
OK, so maybe neither of these two happened. The girl was just goofing and sending stuff around. IF the said 30 year old happened to get that picture in an accidental text message and didn't delete every trace of it does the potential for trouble for him exist?
If you acknowledge that the picture in this scenario could mean jail time for someone, do you think maybe the girl in this scenario (who was just goofing around) should have an administrative slap on the wrist so that she doesn't do something that can cause great and lasting embarassment for her AND great damage to someone else?
I'm not sure what to do in this case, but kids and especially teens have plenty of urges that need guarding by good parents. Just because an interest in sex in natural doesn't mean you let your kid go off willy-nilly. You do your best to prevent your kids from doing stupid things until (hopefully!) one day their judgement catches up with their capacity Or you no longer have responsibility because you no longer have authority.

- Father of Two Little Girls


RE: WTF
By Avitar on 4/14/2009 5:47:12 PM , Rating: 2
Oh my God, I had no idea! My mail carrier must be arrested immediately! He delivered the JC Penny spring catalog yesterday! . I do have many pictures of twelve-year-old girls in their bras and bikinis that took myself, of course these days my sisters friends have to visit the beauty shop occasionally to cover up the grey but they were under eighteen when slumber party and pool party pictures were taken.

Do you recommend arresting 45-year-old man with pictures of naked twelve year olds playing tennis or running through parks? Those photographs of my streaking sister her other classmates from the spring of 1974 surely must be reason to arrest my brother-in-law. Their daughter in med school will be sooo ashamed as will their son in divinity school and what will their son's in-laws say?

"Father of Two Little Girls" you have no idea what the world is really like.


RE: WTF
By FingerMeElmo87 on 4/9/2009 5:07:17 PM , Rating: 1
whats funny is that some people do have a weird way at trying to connect 2 and 2 together. because i like driving my car, thats makes me much more liable to becoming a car bomb suicide driver. doesn't make any sense. what a douche


RE: WTF
By 91TTZ on 4/9/2009 10:16:24 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Mr. Skumanick disagrees. He likens sexting to bank robbery, stating, "You can't call committing a crime fun or a prank. If you do that, you can rob a bank because you think it's fun


This guy is an idiot who should be disbarred. People like him are what really threatens your children by ruining their lives.

You can't compare consensual sexting to robbing a bank. Robbing a bank implies taking something against someone's will.

Since it's consensual, it would be more like going into a bank and depositing your money into your girlfriend's account.


RE: WTF
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:36:55 AM , Rating: 5
The guy forwarded the pics against her will.

She did something stupid and not illegal. He did something wrong.


RE: WTF
By TomZ on 4/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: WTF
By callmeroy on 4/9/2009 11:17:40 AM , Rating: 2
Granted it sounds pretty silly, but I think the other folks commenting on this forget or seem to have a much nicer and bubbly world view of the legal system and the relavant codes and statues.

This is , if you wade through all the initial stupid feelings and legalese -- it boils down to an act of classic CMA (Cover My _$$) on the part of the particular state's DA office.

You see in this incredibly letigious (sp?) world of 2009 -- some laws are in place to protect the government itself against damages or liability. If someone transmitted naked images and some how through hacking , social engineering, spoofing, whatever they were received by an unintended party and then the images were mis-used for nefarious deeds.... you know some parent or guardian will be all upset and do the American thing --- which is sue everyone you can think of at that moment for some kind of negligence or misconduct.

So I think one of the reasons for this law is basically under the mindset of "well at least they can't say we didn't do anything about it" kind of deal.


RE: WTF
By callmeroy on 4/9/2009 11:18:30 AM , Rating: 2
I swear , I honestly could type and spell much better 10 years ago....


RE: WTF
By PlasmaBomb on 4/9/2009 2:28:51 PM , Rating: 5
That is because you didn't have a phone and weren't constantly distracted by receiving dirty pictures...


RE: WTF
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 11:22:01 AM , Rating: 2
What you're arguing is actually the only exception I can think makes sense. Self-inflicted should not be a crime.


RE: WTF
By celticbrewer on 4/9/2009 3:26:11 PM , Rating: 2
It may be a self inflicted crime, but what about the receiver and everyone he/she passes it along to? Do we know the person in the photo is not 18? She's 17, 15- but pretty mature looking?

So now you're unknowingly in possession of child pornography. Next you're distributing it- still believing it's legal. The pedo-police come knocking on your door. Who's the victim now? Do you think the cops are going to accept "Oh, I swear she looked 18, officer"?

This law is meant to deter kids from photographing themselves so situations like the above don't happen in the first place. They don't care about morality, they want to catch pedophiles and this is blurring the line.


RE: WTF
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2009 3:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
So let's destroy these kids self esteem, call them criminals, and put them on a list with CHILD MOLLESTORS and rapists, all because they played digital show me yours I'll show you mine ?

Meanwhile actual CRIMINALS are walking the streets or getting slap on-the wrist sentences...

sigh wtf is going on with this country !


RE: WTF
By 91TTZ on 4/9/2009 12:42:05 PM , Rating: 2
The example in this article isn't a very good one. But there have been man other articles in the news lately about kids being charged for sending pictures of themselves.


RE: WTF
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2009 3:49:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This guy is an idiot who should be disbarred.


You know what, you're absolutely right.

Now for all you who think this is too harsh, think about it. This guy is a JUDGE. Do you know what that means ? For him to use such a unfitting and wrong analogy shows a terrifying lack of basic legal understanding. He's supposed to be an EXPERT of the law, above that, his very job title is based on his JUDGMENT of situations. His judgment, in this case, is lacking severely !

I can hardly put into words how stupid his analogy is. First off, and he should know this, 99% of all bank robberies are ARMED robberies ! Hello, let's think about this for a minute people. He just told kids, who did nothing more than play digital doctor, that they were like bank robbers....

I don't know or care if what the kid did was right or wrong, but I know this, if I'm the parent that judge gets a defamation of character lawsuit slapped on him. And I don't stop until his senile ass is fired.


RE: WTF
By glennpratt on 4/9/2009 4:52:49 PM , Rating: 2
First, this guy is a DA, not a judge. I see judge at the top of the page, but as far as I can tell that's just wrong.

Secondly, you're taking his analogy out of context. He's arguing against a preemptive lawsuit to prevent him from filing charges. What if every one who might be charged with a crime did that, what a waste of time.


RE: WTF
By PrezWeezy on 4/9/2009 1:29:47 PM , Rating: 4
I guess we should also tell all minors who look at themselves in a mirror to get ready for a lawsuit too. Obviously that's looking at child pornography isn't it?


RE: WTF
By DeepBlue1975 on 4/9/2009 8:42:20 PM , Rating: 3
If the minor starts to masturbate at the sight of her/his own naked body on the mirror, then yes, the minor would be a child pornography producer AND consumer...

And don't they dare to ever have a bath and clean their intimate parts with their bare hands. That would be definitely called child abuse.
And if the said child grabs a wallet after having cleaned his/her own intimate parts with the bare hands, then it becomes another hall different game as it would imply child prostitution and perversion.

"There's no worst enemy than oneself" (?)

PS: Just in case, my whole post is intended to be sarcastic. If this judge can seriously compare sexting to bank robbery, then someone could say what I just did and be serious about it!
Oh what a world...


RE: WTF
By Oregonian2 on 4/9/2009 1:34:10 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Mr. Skumanick disagrees. He likens sexting to bank robbery, stating, "You can't call committing a crime fun or a prank. If you do that, you can rob a bank because you think it's fun.


He's right in a sense. It's like breaking into your own ceramic piggy bank on your bedroom shelf. Doing so requires jail time.

What an <expletive deleted>.


RE: WTF
By glennpratt on 4/9/2009 4:59:24 PM , Rating: 2
Again, this quote is out of context, he's commenting on a lawsuit being filed against him to preemptively prevent him from filing charges.

He's saying you can't just throw out the laws before a case is heard, he's not comparing it to back robbery. He's saying you can't break the law and prevent prosecution just because it's fun.


RE: WTF
By SlyNine on 4/9/2009 6:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see that at all. He is saying clearly that if you are under 18 and take a picture of yourself naked you are committing a crime that is as bad as bank robbery. I think he is the one taking the law out of context. The spirit of the law is OH SO OBVIOUSLY to protect the children, some how its less about protecting children and more about prosecuting any thing you find disturbing. I remember a big thing on techtv's CyberCrime about virtual child porn becoming illegal so it will make it easier to prosecute. Now their prosecuting kids taking pictures of them selves which to me is just absurd.

What worries me is, what's next. Debating laws on child porn, taking pictures of your kids while they are in a bath tub, telling you at what age you cannot give your kid a bath. What ways will prosecutors find to use this law in an obviously inappropriate manner.

To me this is freken ridiculous.


RE: WTF
By Fritzr on 4/9/2009 7:32:11 PM , Rating: 2
The DA's job is prosecuting people who break the law
Bank robbers are breaking the law
People creating child pornography as legally defined are breaking the law
People distributing child pornography as legally defined are breaking the law
There is a pattern there if you look for it...

The DA does not get to pick and choose cases based on whether the person(s) involved were having fun or were trying to commit a crime. That decision belongs to the judge in the event that the DA's office finds sufficient evidence of a crime as defined by statute.

If the parents do not want their kids charged with creating and distributing child pornography then they need to petition their legislators to get the laws changed. Until that is done the DA can be charged with a crime or sued for failing to perform his duties if he or his office do nothing when presented with evidence of a crime as defined by law.

Of course the parents can strike pre-emptively by making sure the kids understand that certain pictures need to be deleted or by making sure the kid's phones do not have working cameras.

As is stated in the article, there are ways to do an end run around the law if the community supports it. One of those ways is allowing these very low grade sex offenders (that is a legal system classification) to attend classes where they will have it explained why what they did is a crime that can cause them serious harm and hopefully convince them that if they want to do this then they had better be ready to do it in a way that does not leave evidence that is not in their control.

If sexting is declared legal & without penalty then you'll see many serious cases presenting the "We were just playing" defense in an attempt to avoid penalties. For example a 12 yo model who earns good money would be likely to say "We were just having fun" to make sure that the money keeps rolling in. Regardless of whether it is the 12 yo or her handlers ... having fun is a great defense if it becomes acceptable in court.


RE: WTF
By SlyNine on 4/9/2009 7:49:57 PM , Rating: 2
Speeding is breaking the law as well, it is a criminal offense. Not paying taxes on claiming income on a lemonade stand selling lemonade is also against the law. Doesn't mean it is the same as robbing a bank. Its not about fun, this is simply absurdity.

The spirit of the law is designed to protect children, not prosecute them. If sexting is declared illegal the consequences to these innocent children are much worse then if its if its declared legal. The spirit of the law does come in to play, This law was NOT written to prosecute children.


RE: WTF
By SlyNine on 4/9/2009 7:53:20 PM , Rating: 2
Not paying taxes or claiming income


RE: WTF
By mars2k on 4/10/2009 5:53:09 AM , Rating: 1
Where is the proportionality here? This poor eighteen year old boy's life is ruined. Registered as a sex offender for 25 years? Did the parents of the girl think these 2 were not having sex?
These are the prime years of anyone's life and productivity. The impact of this doesn't just harm the boy it harms society. Much more harm than some silly embarrassment suffered by a yung girl approaching the age of majority herself.
I'm not defending what he did or blaming the victim but it just does not rise to the level of the punishment he received. Does cruel and unusual ring any bells?


OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 9:04:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
A district attorney tried to file charges against Marissa Miller of northeastern Pennsylvania and her friend, who snapped cell phone pictures of themselves in bras when they were 12 years old and sent them to a classmate.


How do you charge someone for taking pictures of themselves? Do you then charge them for looking at themselves, or touching themselves?




RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 4/9/2009 9:06:35 AM , Rating: 5
Taking pictures of themselves wasn't a crime AFAIK. It was the act of transmitting the pictures to a third-party.

Or at least that's the way I interpret it. I think the whole thing is pretty stupid regardless.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 9:19:20 AM , Rating: 1
it is absurd.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By FITCamaro on 4/9/2009 11:48:45 AM , Rating: 2
My take on it is that it's a parents issue. Not the states. Now in the case of people over 18, then it becomes the states.

However for cases like this, I don't think they should be grouped in the same category as child rapists, pedaphiles, and those who expose themselves in public.

For the kid who sent the picture of his girlfriend out to family and friends, yes, he should be tried. He distributed a picture that was given to him by a person and he used it to attack their character. He was 18, she was a minor. Although still above the age of consent though. I don't view dating a 16 year old at 18 as a crime, but doing something like that definitely is. It would be like taking the picture and posting it on the web for the world to see.

But for the girl, it should be between her and her mom. If schools find something like this, they should call in the parents of all involved and make it clear it isn't acceptable and their kid will be expelled if caught doing it again. This should not result in someone's life being permanently screwed up due to something like this. Even if the message is between a boy and a girl, if they are of similar age and consenting, it should remain a parenting problem. Not a legal one.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By wempa on 4/9/2009 12:46:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However for cases like this, I don't think they should be grouped in the same category as child rapists, pedaphiles, and those who expose themselves in public.

For the kid who sent the picture of his girlfriend out to family and friends, yes, he should be tried. He distributed a picture that was given to him by a person and he used it to attack their character.


^^^ Wise words. He should definitely be punished, but putting him in the same class as a pedophile is ridiculous.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By Oregonian2 on 4/9/2009 1:37:34 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, speeding 5-mph over the speed limit may be illegal, but one shouldn't get the death penalty for it. Even if the law is written that way.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By Belard on 4/9/2009 2:43:25 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah... but its also the same reasoning that you DON'T convict children of adult crimes (usually).

The 12yr old girl was doing a silly 12year old GIRL thing with her friends. She was wearing a bra! Something we see on TV. If shes wearing a 2-piece bathing suit, it would show as much skin.

There is a difference of a 45year old man taking and transmitting nude pics of under-age people. But a gray area would be if a father took a pic of his 12yr old daughter and sent it to his wife to show her how it looks/fit/style... right?

The USA is very imature about sex. We all do it (okay, many of us) and some of us start in our early~mid teens. Get over it. Go after child molestors, rapists and murders... kids will be kids.

Many young women (adult) do take nude or sexy photos of themselves for their BF / husband or hey, here is what I looked like 20 - 40 years ago... etc. Its their private matter. Such a thing was used against an EX of mine in court by some creep she meet on the internet. And even accusing me of taking such photos as shown in court. She had taken the photos herself actually. I had admitted I've taken some - but have and will never used that to hold over an EX GF. BTW: I busted the creep because I found his photos, profile and more on the net. Not getting into details, it was not fun. But it was like "uh, the photos aren't illegal, the younger generation does this kind of thing all the time... ever see Girls Gone Wild TV ads?" :)

The 18yr old boy who sent photos of this 16yr ex, was very immature... he does fall in the bracket of transmitting the sexual acts with/of a minor. It was stupid on his part. If he was 30 and she was 25, he'd be mature enough to not do such childish crap. Is he a sex-offender? I would easily say NO. Just a kid.

Hopefully the judge would just look at it as such and give him 1-2 years of probation and a few days in Jail. I can think of much worse people in the world(and locally) who get away with their crimes. But I don't see him winning this, he's 18... she's 16 even thou she posed for those photos. If she was 18, she could take him to civil court.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2009 3:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or at least that's the way I interpret it. I think the whole thing is pretty stupid regardless.


Exactly. Wtf is the crime here exactly ? This is nothing more than digital 'show me yours I'll show you mine'. What the hell ? Come on lets be honest, who of us DIDN'T do that as a kid ?


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By Belard on 4/9/2009 5:07:53 PM , Rating: 1
Because in this stupd country, kids can't be kids.

Keep in mind, in many places in the USA, kids can't play tag anymore (thats assault), they get in trouble for stupid stuff that we used to do in the "old days".

The issue of under-age people is there for a good reason, but it has double standard and there are issues when people are wrongly accused and the criminals walk away. Its disgusting.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By akosixiv on 4/9/2009 8:20:52 PM , Rating: 2
The crime here is basically putting these children on the same level as those adults who have raped/killed/molested other children.

These are just kids making a kids mistake. How the hell to we expect them to grow up if we don't let them make this mistakes on their own. Sure, slap them on the wrist, a few days jail time probably, probation... But to register them as a sex offender?, deny them good education, jobs, their whole livs?. That's the crime here.


RE: OMFG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!
By Lazarus Dark on 4/9/2009 9:20:58 PM , Rating: 2
Whatever happened to the punishment fits the crime?
I'm closing on thirty and I can look back and say that at eighteen, no matter how smart or how high the IQ, every teenager is a moron. We should not punish kids for the rest of their lives for some stupid little mistake. Should there be punishment? Yes! But it should fit the crime. Community service, monetary reparation, something like that. TEACH the kid a lesson. Putting him on a sex offender list with rapists and molestors is cruel and unusual to say the least, and how can he learn a lesson if the punishment is for life? Maybe we should also give the death penalty to guys who get in drunken barfights. Or life in prison for speeding.


I love these holier-than-thou types...
By sh3rules on 4/9/2009 10:48:53 AM , Rating: 4
As it's been mentioned, the next logical step would be to prosecute teens who masturbate as child molesters.

Insane.




RE: I love these holier-than-thou types...
By FITCamaro on 4/9/2009 1:36:42 PM , Rating: 4
Please show the jury where you touched yourself.


By plowak on 4/9/2009 6:25:34 PM , Rating: 1
"Hey, not that fast!"


By SlyNine on 4/9/2009 6:37:04 PM , Rating: 1
Now thats 2 accounts. you're one sick little F***!


Huge Monster
By robin hood on 4/9/2009 11:06:18 AM , Rating: 5
Hey folks we have a huge out of control monster in America. It's called the justice system. Its goal is to catch as many people as it can in its net. Run them through the system, divest them of their money and if possible their freedom. This is all very good for all the lawyers, judges, cops and friends of the court. But it's terrible for the people. America has a higher percentage of its people behind bars than any other country. This story is a clear example of the so called justice system run amok. I'm all for protecting kids but to make a 12 year old a sex offender for transmitting a picture of herself in a bra to a friend? It would be laughable if it were not so damn serious. You get what you tolerate people. Can you say "Police State," boys and girls? I thought you could.




RE: Huge Monster
By Oregonian2 on 4/9/2009 1:39:51 PM , Rating: 2
Well, the justice system needs to do whatever it can to gain profitability.


RE: Huge Monster
By robin hood on 4/10/2009 1:03:25 AM , Rating: 2
Sadly it seems all the justice system is about these days is profit. Money all ways comes first. Make no mistake. Also, there is a rush to criminalize most everything. The more laws the more offenders which equates to more profit. Crooked lawyers hiding behind three piece suits. Bullies with badges. Tin plated dictators with delusions of godhood hiding behind judicial robes. That's what we have in America. "The land of the free." And we better get used to it. It's a growth industry. Unless, of course, the mice somehow find a way to bell the cat.


header correction
By zinfamous on 4/9/2009 12:22:42 PM , Rating: 2
Skumanick is a DA--not a judge.




RE: header correction
By nixoofta on 4/9/2009 1:31:15 PM , Rating: 5
Calling this guy a dumbass is being way too kind.

:P


By lemonadesoda on 4/9/2009 10:41:15 AM , Rating: 5
So, parents have their precious "baby book". You know, the photos, zero to three years old.

Or pictures of their young children playing on the beach under the hot sun spashing in and out of the sea/lake.

Probabilities are that those photos include a naked or part-naked picture. (When exactly is a girl wearing a bra child pornography whereas a smaller girl with no top isnt).

And by rule of law (as applied in the examples of the news post), having taken such a picture is one crime. Having it printed and in your photo album is another. Having the photo album on your flickr site is yet another. Emailing a picture to family or friend is yet another. Showing the album to visitors is another.

Parents! Throw out all those precious pictures of childhood moments.

Oh, this is so silly.




What about the Age of Consent?
By PrezWeezy on 4/9/2009 8:41:49 PM , Rating: 3
I was just thinking about this, in most states the age of consent is 16. Most states also have laws providing that if one party is under the age of 18, the other party must be no more than 2 years older (some states it's as much as 4).
This means that it is legal for an 18 year old to have sex with a 16 year old, but is illegal for said adult to posses pictures of the minor they are having sex with? Child pornography laws are, as stated above, to protect the children from abuse and damaging them as adults. But we are saying that it is ok to have sex as a minor and we don't think that will damage them, but showing someone a picture will? That seems kinda backasswards.




Poor Judgement
By dreddly on 4/9/2009 8:54:37 AM , Rating: 2
I think this is a case of poor judgement all around.

First and foremost are the prosecutors, who by enfocing the law in this manner are going to end up making it more difficult to prosecute real child pornographers, both because they waste the court's time, and because the laws are going to have to be redrafted after constitutional challenges.

Second are students themselves, while sexuality may be a normal part of growing up, digitizing naked or suggestive photos of yourself is a good way to ensure that those photos will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Third, parents thinking their kids with poor judgment are going to make good sexual choices with a camera in their pocket. Scratch up those lenses.




What kind of justice is this?
By dani31 on 4/9/2009 8:59:45 AM , Rating: 1
This is pure Kafka. What kind of justice is this?




By michaelklachko on 4/9/2009 2:03:43 PM , Rating: 1
My thought exactly. Surreal and anti-utopian.


By Marinski on 4/9/2009 11:50:33 AM , Rating: 2
If its child porn then why is she being tried as an adult??




The real issue
By Rhys on 4/9/2009 1:15:17 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sick of people living by the letter of the law and saying that it's the final say. BS! The law is supposed to be a fair and unbiased application of what we, as a society, believe is right and wrong. If the law and our sense of morality don't match up, then the law is not doing its job properly, and MUST be changed. Thus, we as a society determine the laws, not the other way around as it seems to have been brought up in earlier posts!

With that said, it seems obvious to me that there is a WIDE difference in morality in the United States today. If a group of people believe that sex is only for procreation, and the nude body should never be revealed to another person, then they should be able to live that way. On the other hand, if a group of people want to allow young adults to feel comfortable with their bodies, and experiment with sex so that they are able to make informed decisions throughout their lives, then that should be okay also.

The problem, as I see it, is that we are trying to make these two groups (along with many other shades of grey) to agree on a single set of moral values. Let's be real folks, this will NEVER happen. There are three clear choices in front of us.

1 - We continue to debate ourselves into some sort of middle ground, and enforce a single moral code throughout the United States that everyone has agreed to, but only a small minority is actually happy with.

2 - We continue to have multiple moral codes, never compromising, and the slamming of our heads into the brick wall continues throughout eternity.

3 - We admit that there is no single 'correct' way to live, and figure out a way to allow people of like minds to share in a community that supports their values while allowing other groups to do the same.

We have 3 choices, and no easy solutions. But we are going to have to deal with this and many other similar problems at some point in the near future.




laws and regulations
By lukafer on 4/9/2009 1:59:29 PM , Rating: 2
you can only make one rule

think about it

as one judge said to me ignorance of the law is no excuse

and the DA gave them an out take the class and be done with it

so

so they can either take thier scarlet letter or stfu and take the class

quit applying the situation and apply the law

or as I say at my permit counter just the facts please hold the drama or the story everybody thinks they have some extenuating circumstance.

But there are rules and regulations and my job is to apply them.

I see no differance between these stupid kids and the guy who gets drunk and gets caught pissing in ally and finds himself in the sex offender database.

life has conequences

even if they suddenly change the rules

those charges are grandfathered and not going to just go away




By jimbojimbo on 4/9/2009 2:40:58 PM , Rating: 2
When these laws were originally created children didn't have the capability to produce photos of themselves wihtout the knowledge and tools for film development. A 16 year old can't siimply walk into a WalMart with a roll of film with naked pictures of herself on it. With that in mind the way the laws were written would make sense. What they don't account for now is how easy it is for anyone to take photos of anything and distribute them.

It's just another case of the law falling well behind the times and screwing eveything up because of it.




What!?
By plowak on 4/9/2009 6:20:01 PM , Rating: 2
How many of you remember playing "doctor" when you were four years old? (Not you, you've repressed everything that doesn't fit the contemporary image of who you think you are.)IMO, much of teen sexual activity is driven by peer pressure, overwhelming hormonal rush and maybe even curiosity, not the prurient driving forces of the true sex offender.




Kids need to be locked up anyway..
By Jalek on 4/9/2009 9:04:34 PM , Rating: 2
If you let them out of their closet or the basement, they'll be out having underage sex, which I'm sure most judges and politicians would love to make illegal but can't, UNLESS they take a picture.

People under 18 need to be banned from public sight. Lock them away, no school, no phones, no nothing until age 18 when they can be released into society.

Then they're everyone else's problem to deal with.

Whatever happened to the common sense test for victimless crimes?




The main problem
By rudy on 4/9/2009 9:28:58 PM , Rating: 2
Is that sex registries need to have some basic facts about the crimes. I know people who were convicted for a sex offense with a willing party whom was only 1-2 years younger. Then I go looking through the registry and deciding on where to live I really want to know if the person living there is a true pedophile or a kid who was 1 year older, I want to know if there was a rape or a text message/you tube video. Because I don't want to live near some of them for the safety of my kids but I am not worried about others. As it is, it is impossible to tell. And that causes us to end up ignoring the list because we can't find any place more then a a block or 2 away from someone on the list.




THIS IS STUPID
By joeymantera on 4/14/2009 2:09:57 PM , Rating: 2
WHERE ARE THE PARENTS OR THESE KIDS. THIS IS TOTALLY THE PARENTS FAULT AND A TOTAL SHAME FOR NOT MONITORING THEIR KIDS CELL PHONES, DIGITAL CAMERAS, AND ACTIONS. THE PARENTS SHOULD BE SENT TO PARENTING CLASSES NOT THE STUDENTS, FOR NOT TAKING ACTION TOWARDS THEIR KIDS FOR ACTING STUPIDLY IN FRONT OF A CAMERA. I'M A PARENT AND IF I FOUND OUT MY DAUGHTER WAS ACTING LIKE A TOTAL SLUT I WOULD GIVE HER 5 ACROSS THE EYES, AND TAKE EVERY TECHNOLOGY AND FREEDOMS AWAY FROM HER. ACTIONS HAVE REPERCUSSIONS AND IF A SEXY PIC STARTED TO CIRCULATE, SERVES THAT PERSON RIGHT FOR BEING STUPID. EVEN IF THEY ARE MINORS. ONCE AGAIN ITS A SHAME THAT PARENTS AREN'T MONITORING THEIR KIDS ACTIVITIES,AND FOR THAT BANK ROBBERY COMMENT CAN WE COMPARE APPLES WITH APPLES. PLEASE!! AMERICA HAS TO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDS. WHY DON'T WE START CRACKING DOWN ON CRIME AND START USING THAT TAX MONEY TOWARDS SOMETHING TO A HIGHER DEGREE. LIKE MONITORING GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS EXPENDITURES AND BEING MORE EFFICIENT WITH THESE MONIES.

LONG LIVE THE QUEEN.




By Avitar on 4/14/2009 4:45:45 PM , Rating: 2
There are reasons the Sex Offender Registry exists. There are sexual predators that do not accord their sexual partners treatment as human beings. For the good of society, these psychos need to be locked up forever. A significant percentage of these people, though perhaps not a majority, stalk children.

The registry was established over the kicking and screaming protests of lawyers everywhere because they were not doing their jobs of locking the compulsive creeps away forever. Creating a registry to track the predators after conviction was a minimal alternative for handling the compulsive repeat offenders.

Lawyers annoyed at the establishment of the Sex Offender Registry are undermining it by adding trivial offenders who do not threaten society to the registry. Created to contain the names of men who tie ropes around the necks of dates, drive nails through their girl friend's breasts (without asking) or drug and rape the women they meet the registry is not limited to serious offenders. The registry now includes some nudists, skinny dippers, strippers who did not pay off the local DA and couples who parked on lovers’ lane in the wrong town.

DA George Skumanick has joined a small group of particularly corrupt lawyers seeking to trivialize the Registry at a completely new level by punishing perfectly innocent behavior. Up here in Hartford, Connecticut, the pictures his fellow DAs are prosecuting children for are on the level of the ones of the seventeen year old in the movie "Blame it on Rio."

Of course, DA George Skumanick may be a sick puppy pervert Muslim who believes that people should be punished for baring their bodies, in hot Florida!




Lack of values
By Nyamekye on 4/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: Lack of values
By JasonMick (blog) on 4/9/2009 9:15:21 AM , Rating: 5
Again, you're entitled to your opinion but just because you and your friends didn't have sex as teens, doesn't mean that you necessarily have the right to enforce this view of morality on others? This is basically just a digital era versions of teens having sex or sexually experimenting with other teens.

It would be different if these kids were like a 25 or 35 year old man exploiting a kid, but they're just fellow kids. Is it really worth ruining their lives to "teach them a lesson" based on your view of appropriate sexual development? Isn't it the job of the parent to enforce such opinions?


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 9:21:45 AM , Rating: 2
This has nothing to do with sex. It has everything to do with distributing nude photographs of underage children. You are telling me that age determines whether or not a law was broken?

If a 45 year old male sends photos of a nude child to another individual then it's "possession and distribution of child pornography". If the same act is committed by a 16 year old, it's ok? Since when did age determine whether or not a law was broken?

Was this poor judgement? Absolutely! As a result, they have not been punished nearly as harshly as the 45 year old (who would have gone straight to prison - do not pass go, do not collect $200). It doesn't change the fact a law was broken. Sexuality is completely different than distributing nude photos. Just because I "want to express my sexuality" does not mean I am not subject to the laws of the land.


RE: Lack of values
By retrospooty on 4/9/2009 9:32:40 AM , Rating: 4
When you were a teen and masterbated, was is child molestation? Should we have arrested you?

Of course not. If its self inflicted, its not breaking the law. At least it shouldnt be.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 10:15:50 AM , Rating: 5
Once again, sexual acts are different from distributing photos of that act.


RE: Lack of values
By icrf on 4/9/2009 11:06:56 AM , Rating: 1
Okay, say I took a picture of myself masturbating when I was 16 and sent it to someone. Is that illegal? What if I still had that picture when I'm 45 and sent it to someone? Who is the victim in these crimes that is being protected?


RE: Lack of values
By retrospooty on 4/9/2009 11:40:17 AM , Rating: 2
"Once again, sexual acts are different from distributing photos of that act. "

In this guys case, since he was sending it out, I can see that... But there are many others where the teen sent nude self-pics to thier boy/girl friend and themselves got in trouble for child pronagraphy. That is rediculous. If I take my phone out and take a pic of my junk and send it to my wife, is that pornography, or an intimate (although odd)thing between my wide and I? Now what if I was 17. Should I be arrested for taking my own picture and sending it to my girlfriend? Bah


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 9:34:32 AM , Rating: 2
saying a 45 year old man does it, is completely different that when a 12 year old does it with pictures of themselves.

quote:
Since when did age determine whether or not a law was broken?

how about drinking alcohol. age determines whether or not you are breaking a law, same with smoking. Oh, and if you wash a baby by hand, vs. washing a 16 year old girl. All these are determined quite a bit by age. 16 year olds can have sex with 16 year olds as well... so yeah age again.

You have to treat minors differently when applying CP charges, cause the laws are meant to protect minors from exploitation.
I can see the argument for the guy who sent the pictures without consent of the girl, but they aren't stopping there, they are also trying people sending pictures of themselves.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 10:42:09 AM , Rating: 1
quote:

quote:

Since when did age determine whether or not a law was broken?


how about drinking alcohol. age determines whether or not you are breaking a law, same with smoking. Oh, and if you wash a baby by hand, vs. washing a 16 year old girl. All these are determined quite a bit by age. 16 year olds can have sex with 16 year olds as well... so yeah age again.


I stand corrected on the age aspect of things. You are correct in this part of your analysis.

quote:
You have to treat minors differently when applying CP charges, cause the laws are meant to protect minors from exploitation


I would agree entirely: The law IS treating them differently (they are not doing time in jail for these acts), and the law IS try to protect the children (thus the harshness of the punishments) so that these photos don't end up in other peoples' hands feeding the child pornography industry.

quote:
I can see the argument for the guy who sent the pictures without consent of the girl, but they aren't stopping there, they are also trying people sending pictures of themselves.


Then we have teenagers with child porn on their phones who just claim that they "know" the individual and that "the individual sent it to me". Posession of explicit photos of minors is still against the law. It's similar to saying "the pot isn't mine, it was given to me." Posession is still posession. But it isn't illegal to send that illegal material to someone? It has to be illegal to send nude photos of children if it's illegal to possess photos of nude children.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 11:11:20 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Then we have teenagers with child porn on their phones who just claim that they "know" the individual and that "the individual sent it to me". Posession of explicit photos of minors is still against the law. It's similar to saying "the pot isn't mine, it was given to me." Posession is still posession. But it isn't illegal to send that illegal material to someone? It has to be illegal to send nude photos of children if it's illegal to possess photos of nude children.


Now if the person is able to provide support for the "i know them and they sent it to me" statement, and they are both kids, then take the matter out of the hands of the law, and give it to the parents.

The reason for things being illegal and the punishment for them are important things to consider. I'll try to save the pot case for another day so as to not derail the conversation, but lets take it for now for the examples sake.
In the first case the laws are on the books because the substance creates an addiction, lowers self inhibation, and makes the person a danger to others.

Whereas the CP laws are to prevent the exploitation of the children involved.

So in the first case a person is charged with possesion of something with the potential to harm himself and others.

In the second case a person is charged with having something that exploited someone. But did it actually exploit the person if the person did it themselves without force, or coercion?
This then brings up the sadjutory rape idea, where a minor willingly has sex with an adult, because of the overwhelming influence an adult can have on a child.
But if it is a minor and minor, it changes. So there should be a difference in both punishment, and legality of this.
Should a person on the receiving end be charged with CP, and labeled as a sex offender?
I say no if the person did not request it, and didn't distribute it. I also say no if the person is of that same age as the sender.
Should the sender be charged? and with what?
I say they shouldn't be labeled as a sex offender, but maybe charge them with indecent exposure.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 11:29:05 AM , Rating: 1
This is probably the best argument against my views that I have ever read. With that said, I have to say that I agree with you for the most part.

The laws ARE meant to protect children from being exploited. The question comes down to "are the kids exploiting themselves without realizing yet that they truly are 'exploiting'? Or do they truly understand the long-term consequences of their actions? Do they need to be protected from themselves?"

We are seeing more and more with the social networking realms that kids don't know when to censor themselves and are constantly getting themselves into more and more trouble as a result. Do they need to be protected from themselves?

Remembering how stupid my friends and I was as a kid (even though distributing pictures of myself nude was not something that crossed my mind), I have to say, "Yes, they need to be protected from exploiting themselves." If they turn 18 and want to continue exploiting themselves, then they can open another website and do that. Many decisions children make are not fully thought out. After all, they are kids.

Sex offender as the punishment? Probably not, but it doesn't change the fact that they are distributing photos of illegal material.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 11:52:30 AM , Rating: 3
<semi-sarcastic>
More and more I think people should have licenses to be parents.
</semi-sarcastic>

It's nice to have thoughtful debate. Have a nice day


RE: Lack of values
By TomZ on 4/9/2009 1:46:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
More and more I think people should have licenses to be parents.
As a parent, the older I get, and the more I see, the more I agree with this idea. It seems crazy to me that you have to get a license to drive, to build houses, etc. But to become a parent - itself a very important responsibility - absolutely zero knowledge, training, certification is required. I think there's something wrong with that.

And before someone comments, yes, I do understand the personal liberty argument against this; however, if you look at the negative consequences for children of parents with poor judgement, I think the case for some regulation can be made quite strongly.


RE: Lack of values
By Kenenniah on 4/9/2009 3:46:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
however, if you look at the negative consequences for children of parents with poor judgement, I think the case for some regulation can be made quite strongly.

The biggest problem with some regulation, is that regulation rarely stays limited. There's also the problem of who decides what is good judgement and what isn't.


RE: Lack of values
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 5:15:11 PM , Rating: 2
Bravo drama queen.
I especially liked how you assumed that tomz hasn't gone to parental classes of some sort.
You're diatribe is absolutely superb!


RE: Lack of values
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2009 5:19:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I especially liked how you assumed that tomz hasn't gone to parental classes of some sort.


Ok that's just absurd. How many people actually take parenting classes ? Not just parenting classes, but parenting classes that would satisfy the red tape quotient of a Government mandated policy !

I'm the bad guy here ? The guy is serious suggesting we adopt Red China style family planning policies, and I'm the bad guy ?


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 5:28:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'm the bad guy here ? The guy is serious suggesting we adopt Red China style family planning policies, and I'm the bad guy ?

No, you are the drama queen.
quote:
How many people actually take parenting classes ?

I know tons (add their weight together and its literal) of parents who do. But definately not enough. A responsibility like that needs to be taken seriously.

quote:
but parenting classes that would satisfy the red tape quotient of a Government mandated policy !


And acting like government licensing would be INSANELY hard is pretty dramatic as well. look at car licensing (as example of the licensing NOT justification) and how pretty much anybody if they take the time can get licensed. I think all around you are being incredibly overdramatic.


RE: Lack of values
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2009 5:51:28 PM , Rating: 1
Ok I'm tired of dancing around the issue. You are ok with the government deciding who can and when they can have children ? Yes or no.

I'm just amazed at how willing some people are to lay down their rights when it's for a seemingly well intentioned reason.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 6:14:25 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Ok I'm tired of dancing around the issue. You are ok with the government deciding who can and when they can have children ? Yes or no.

Lets flip this
You are ok with parents who have no way of supporting children having children? Yes or no.

My whole issue is the drama.


RE: Lack of values
By sprockkets on 4/9/2009 10:44:39 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, if a 16 year old GUY has sex with a 16 year old girl, he goes to jail, regardless of whether it was consensual or not. Good luck enforcing that law however.

I wonder what happens when two underage guys do it; do both go to jail since they are both male? Or when two girls do it, do neither of them get arrested?


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 12:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually, if a 16 year old GUY has sex with a 16 year old girl, he goes to jail, regardless of whether it was consensual or not. Good luck enforcing that law however.

These laws are under state jurisdiction in the US. In over half of the states, the age of consent is 16 - so intercourse with someone aged 16 would not be a crime no matter how old you are (unless you are in a position of authority over them).

In a state where age of consent is 18 and there is no close in age exception, two 16 year old that have sex would BOTH be sex offenders.

Where do you live that has no close in age exception, and the male is automatically guilty and the female automatically a victim? That's some seriously F'ed up law you've got there.


RE: Lack of values
By FITCamaro on 4/9/2009 1:46:21 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Where do you live that has no close in age exception, and the male is automatically guilty and the female automatically a victim? That's some seriously F'ed up law you've got there.


Nine times out of ten, the male is blamed. Even in cases where say a 25 year old guy sleeps with a 16 year old girl who lies about her age (saying she's 18+), the guy is blamed. Hell even if the guy is drunk and the 16 year old (who isn't drunk) seduces him and gets him to sleep with her, its still his fault.

Despite all the BS about how women are equal and everything, they still get to play the part of the victim and avoid a lot of trouble simply because they're viewed as the weaker sex. Look at all these cases where the teachers sleep with their students. When its a male teacher they're made a sex offender, fired, and imprisoned. When its a female they're usually just fired and a registered sex offender. No jail time.

And if a woman cries rape, normally the man goes to jail. Knew a guy who had a buddy go to jail for sleeping with a chick when they were both drunk and then she cried rape.

Is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes.


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 3:55:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even in cases where say a 25 year old guy sleeps with a 16 year old girl who lies about her age (saying she's 18+), the guy is blamed.

And generally they should be, unless there's some very compelling evidence that he took all reasonable measures to confirm her age.

quote:
Hell even if the guy is drunk and the 16 year old (who isn't drunk) seduces him and gets him to sleep with her, its still his fault.

Same thing will happen if a teenage dude gets an older chick drunk and seduces her.

quote:
When its a female they're usually just fired and a registered sex offender. No jail time.
That's simply not true. Mary Kay Letourneau is a very famous case of a female teacher server jail time, but there are many many others. Besides, even if that was true, I'd assume that male teachers would (on the average) end up with stiffer penalties because (on the average) the relations would probably show more evidence of coercion and exploitation. It doesn't take much coercion to get a teenage boy in the sack.

quote:
And if a woman cries rape, normally the man goes to jail. Knew a guy who had a buddy go to jail for sleeping with a chick when they were both drunk and then she cried rape.

Certainly not the case here in Canada. Actually, up until the 90's, the opposite was true in Canada. Most rapes went unreported, since the trials usually ended up being more a trial of the victim than the accused. Basically, the defense lawyers would start throwing out every bit of evidence they could find that the victim was a slut. Legislation was eventually put in place to prevent this.

If you want to see some amazingly misogynistic sexual assault defenses, look up Al Stokke. If you're familiar with Allison Stokke (his incredibly hot pole-vaulting daughter), it's actually pretty damned funny.


RE: Lack of values
By MozeeToby on 4/9/2009 12:43:24 PM , Rating: 2
That's not always the case, it's important to remember that in the US, the age of consent is set by the state and can vary widely. Most states in the US have 16 as the age of consent, with a handful at 17 and dozen at 18.

Of the states that have 17 and 18, almost all have so called 'Romeo and Juliette' exceptions where if the partners are close in age it is not illegal. Most also have weaker penalties if the minor is 16 or older.

Finally, the laws in the US don't differentiate between male and female. Now, the DA in your area may feel differently and not pursue cases against the female, but that is your DA being dangerously naive about the sexual attitudes minors have today.

(Incedentally, while looking up the age of consent stuff, I learned that the age of consent in some areas of Mexico is 12 years old. Say what you want about age of consent laws, but that to me is very scary.)


RE: Lack of values
By sprockkets on 4/9/2009 5:44:16 PM , Rating: 2
I was under the impression it had to do with whether you were a minor or not, which is 18.


RE: Lack of values
By Ryanman on 4/9/2009 9:34:43 AM , Rating: 5
Actually, yes it SHOULD be okay.
Pedophilia is when you're loving children, when you're obviously not their age. Should 6 year olds that flash each other be convicted of creating child pornography? What about 5th graders that draw phalluses and pass their artwork around class? Those that carve sexually graphic images into the urinals?
Why is the line "fuzzy" because these kids are over the 18-line? They're within 2 years of each other! Even if she was 15, or if he was 19, the fact is that the law doesn't account for relationships or legitimacy of attraction. It's ridiculous. Remember the outcry when that guy was sent to jail from getting head from his 17 year old girlfriend? Same justification.

Not to say sending these pictures was a good thing for this jerk to do. She trusted him and he betrayed her. But Child Pornography? She's Jailbait at worst - and she took the pictures himself. This is insane.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 10:51:23 AM , Rating: 2
Like I said in a previous post, I stand corrected on the "law being subjected to age".

All of your examples have nothing to do with the crime at hand. None of your example take into account the distibution of nude photographs. This is the crime that was broken. It has already been determine by the courts that drawings of children are not child pornography, let alone drawings BY children. This is not the issue at hand.

The question isn't who took the photos, the question is who is distributing the photos and possessing the photos. The fact remains she was 16 at the time of the photo. A company/website would be shut down for transmitting photos of a 16 year-old.

Should the laws be changed? Well, that's a different argument. This is what the law currently says.


RE: Lack of values
By Ryanman on 4/9/2009 11:31:07 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, TWO of my examples deal with the distribution of not nude photographs, but sexually explicit images involving and depicting minors. If it's drawn, is it different?
I'm not saying it isn't the law. I'm saying the law's draconian and borderline insane. If we're trying to stomp out sexuality in every American child, lets at least be consistent instead of going against kids who are at the right age to make their own sexual decisions anyway. 16 is about the time where the law should back the heck off.


RE: Lack of values
By phxfreddy on 4/9/2009 10:57:01 AM , Rating: 2
I think making age related laws is discriminatory AND confusing. It needs to either with or against the law.

In the case of these photos I am a bit surprised as nudity I thought was not exactly sexuality. I thought there would need be a sex act involved ?

I am remembering the deep dark more relaxed past in the 70's when a child I saw a nudist camp magazine with nude children. Indeed I think children of nudists can go to nuddy camps....


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 11:15:33 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think making age related laws is discriminatory AND confusing. It needs to either with or against the law.


I think laws that are always cut and dry are impractical, do not meet out justice, are not in the publics best interest, and do not take into account common sense.


RE: Lack of values
By TomZ on 4/9/2009 11:19:22 AM , Rating: 2
That's exactly why you have DA's whose job is to decide whether to prosecute, and judges and juries who can look at the situation and (hopefully) apply common sense. If you look at actual cases, there is a large range of discretion on the part of the judge in terms of what kind of punishment is imposed, even if the person is found guilty.


RE: Lack of values
By Ryanman on 4/9/2009 11:32:30 AM , Rating: 2
hopefully these guys won't get elected next year.


RE: Lack of values
By DiscipleOfJobs on 4/9/2009 11:39:58 AM , Rating: 2
Doodoo butt, she's a slut. The stinky meat and the squish spinnin'.


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 9:40:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are telling me that age determines whether or not a law was broken?

In many cases it does.

A 25-year-old has sex with a 13-year-old. Is this a crime? In most jurisdictions, yes.

A 15 year old has sex with a 13-year-old. Is this a crime? In most (western world) jurisdictions, no. There is almost always a close-in-age exception for age of sexual consent laws.

Apparently, these close-in-age exceptions that are almost universal for sex don't exist for possession of sexual materials. They probably should.

quote:
Sexuality is completely different than distributing nude photos.

So if they screw like jack-rabbits, it's OK... but if they take a picture with their shirts off OH THE HORROR!

quote:
If the same act is committed by a 16 year old, it's ok?

Yeah, I think it's OK for a 16 year old to have pictures of other 16 year olds. Calling it a crime may be in keeping with the word of the law, but not the spirit of the law. Child pornography laws exist to protect children from exploitation by adults.


RE: Lack of values
By TomZ on 4/9/2009 9:40:33 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sexuality is completely different than distributing nude photos
Uh, no - last time I checked it was also illegal to have sex with underage teens. The law recognizes an equivalence between pictures of children and having sex with children.

But that said, I agree with the other posters - the laws need to understand an exception when both parties are effectively "children."


RE: Lack of values
By Yawgm0th on 4/9/2009 10:38:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Uh, no - last time I checked it was also illegal to have sex with underage teens. The law recognizes an equivalence between pictures of children and having sex with children.
As an adult I can legally have sex with a 16-year old in my state. But if I had a nude picture of a 17-year-old it would carry more penalty than if I had sex with a 13-year-old in my state.

There is no legal "equivalence between pictures of children and having sex with children." There are different statutes with different penalties in every state. Child pornography is much more serious in pretty much every state and most countries.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 11:07:36 AM , Rating: 2
So, you are saying that it is ok for a "child" (under 18) to own a website distributing nude photos of other children? Just because a child possesses it and distributes it doesn't mean "distribution isn't a crime". An explicit photo of a child is still against the law, no matter who owns it.


RE: Lack of values
By 91TTZ on 4/9/2009 10:02:40 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
If the same act is committed by a 16 year old, it's ok? Since when did age determine whether or not a law was broken?


Ever since they wrote laws differentiating between children and adults.

If you're 14 and post nude pictures of YOURSELF, how can you be charged as an adult for spreading child porn? The government is charging you, on behalf of you, of exploiting yourself. You're the adult sex offender and you're the child victim at the same time. This makes no sense.

Do they want to treat you as an adult or a child? How can you be both in the same case?


RE: Lack of values
By nosfe on 4/9/2009 10:28:02 AM , Rating: 2
I don't see the problem, they would just put you away to protect you from yourself


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 10:57:06 AM , Rating: 2
As stated before, I stand corrected on the "law determined by age" arguement.

These individuals are not being charged as adults for spreading this. They are bearing some of the consequences for their actions. They are not serving jail time. But they DID distribute nude photos of underaged individuals.

If it is ok for them to distribute it, then would it be ok for a minor to own a website showing photos of nude children just because they too are a child? Distribution of nude photos is still distribution of nude photos, no matter who is in the photo.


RE: Lack of values
By 91TTZ on 4/9/2009 12:49:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
These individuals are not being charged as adults for spreading this.


Actually they are. They're getting the same punishment that adults are getting. The pornography laws currently on the books don't differentiate between youths and adults, while most other laws do. So what we have here is a situation where it's legal for a 14 year old to have sex with other minors, but if they send a picture of themself in a bra they get charged under a law meant for adults and have to register as a sex offender... for sending a picture they took of themself.

Even the woman behind Megan's Law has publicly stated that the law is being misused to convict teens on sex offender charges.

Read about that here:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/crimeandcourts/Mea...


RE: Lack of values
By 91TTZ on 4/9/2009 1:01:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If it is ok for them to distribute it, then would it be ok for a minor to own a website showing photos of nude children just because they too are a child?


No, because the photos are not of themselves. It's sort of like punching yourself. Is it legal to punch other people? No. So why is it legal to punch yourself? You're still assaulting a person, even if that person is yourself.

Everyone in their right mind knows that a law like this is ridiculous. Yet as amusing as it may seem, there really are laws against self-injury. The state really could file charges on your behalf (against your will) for attempting to injure a person (yourself).

In the end what it amounts to is the state wanting complete control over the individual. Any and all laws which give the state more power will be desirable to them. Of course those laws will be marketed under the guise of "safety", but the real motivation is a power.


RE: Lack of values
By Pandamonium on 4/9/2009 10:11:01 AM , Rating: 2
Sometimes the "laws of the land" didn't anticipate cultural shifts and need to be amended. Just because some panel of lawyers defined something as legal 10, 20, or 30 years ago doesn't mean the general public agrees with the law. The whole point of having a living constitution is so that it can adapt as culture and technology evolves and develops.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 10:59:10 AM , Rating: 2
If you don't agree with the law, then get it changed. Breaking it just because you don't like it doesn't change the fact the law is in place. With breaking a law, there are consequences, whether or not you agree with it. Don't like it, then change it. Until then, it's still the law.


RE: Lack of values
By Morphine06 on 4/9/2009 10:55:21 AM , Rating: 3
The teen girl exploited herself to begin with by sending the pictures. The young man broke the law, for sure, but she didn't value her dignity which is why she is in this mess. She is undergoing embarrassment, not rape. The punishment doesn't match the crime.

The age gap between the TWO offenders should be considered, whether or not they can prove they had a relationship before the incident, and the nature of the content should all be factors and it seems they weren't.

I also can't help but think, "Florida, figures..."


RE: Lack of values
By bety on 4/9/2009 4:54:07 PM , Rating: 2
Good post CCM. At least one person has thought this through without defensive, emotional, knee-jerk reactions.


RE: Lack of values
By LoweredExpectations on 4/9/2009 5:02:04 PM , Rating: 2
The American justice system is WAY out of control. People in this country routinely get sentences 3 or 4 times as severe as in any other democracy. American society seems to have forgotten that one aspect of punishment is rehabilitation. We only care about punishment. The US now has a larger percentage of its population undergoing some form of imprisonment than any other country in the world. Well, whatever you think about that, the idea that some kid will be registered as a sex-offender for the rest of his life because of some stupid prank involving published photos - that is just so out of proportion to the crime that it beggars belief. It's as if the criminal justice system is trying to ruin lives.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:02:42 AM , Rating: 3
With some topics, you can't get away with this "you go your way and I'll go mine" relativism attitude. Somethings are *wrong* and somethings are *right* regardless of your "views".

Can any 13 year old girl can send me nude pics of herself and I'm ok as long as I didn't ask for them? That's just her natural way of experimenting as a teen... right?

See the problem is that you can't have exceptions to an adult. If the guy is legally an adult and the laws say he can't distribute nude pics of a minor, then he is wrong. Sure it's not sex with a minor and it's not rape, but it IS illegal and the best way for him to understand that is to slap his hand. This could be fixed by adding a "danger level" tag to his sex offender record.

In the same vein, why should *ANYONE* be allowed to distribute nude pics of minors? Why should a minor be allowed? Isn't it still child porn? Isn't it still abuse? If it's "wrong" then it's wrong no matter who does it.

What about the girl who took the pics of herself? That's child porn and it's wrong? Or it is OK if you do it to yourself without external pressure?

The parents are not teaching kids what is right and wrong, so they are free to experiment. Because of this, when they enter the world of adults, society is now required to teach them what is appropriate and what is not. The way we do this is through punishment just like we would do to other types of criminals. It's a crime and it needs to be punished in some form for the benefit of the person who did it (great lesson), and for the benefit of future teens who are now adults.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 10:44:02 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
In the same vein, why should *ANYONE* be allowed to distribute nude pics of minors?


Change "minors" to "themselves" and you will see why.

quote:
Can any 13 year old girl can send me nude pics of herself and I'm ok as long as I didn't ask for them? That's just her natural way of experimenting as a teen... right?

She should be ok from the law and her parents should stop it. You, on the other hand, depending on your age, should probably get rid of them, and request no more are sent, in a fashion that is easily traceable.

quote:
If it's "wrong" then it's wrong no matter who does it.


This is not true, as wrong is based on a situation, not on an act.

It is not still abuse if it is of and done by the person in question without coercion/force. The CP laws are to stop the abuse, so no it is not wrong.

quote:
The parents are not teaching kids what is right and wrong, so they are free to experiment.

Right and wrong is subjective and the children are free to experiment because they still have physical control of themselves.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 11:32:35 AM , Rating: 2
Wrong and right are not subjective. Take that logic to the end and it leads straight to chaos. There has to be some final rule that dictates where the line is.

My points that you answered were to be considered the extremes of any situation. If it's wrong, it's wrong for anyone... well no, because in this case she did it to herself and I don't have a problem with that. What she didn't do to herself was forward the pics to his friends and that needs to be punished.

quote:
She should be ok from the law and her parents should stop it. You, on the other hand, depending on your age, should probably get rid of them, and request no more are sent, in a fashion that is easily traceable.

I agree with this completely, but I think it's still a dangerous position that can EASILY be abused.

The CP laws are NOT only to stop abuse. If that was the case, then people who did not pay for pics would not be even indirectly abusing kids. The idea is that Child porn hurts kids and people support it by viewing it. That's only partially true and yet those viewers are heavily cracked down on regardless of how they received the pics.

Children need more than physical control. Children don't understand the consequences and should be protected from themselves to some extent. This is *precisely* what parenting is. Protecting and teaching until someone is (theoretically) mature enough to protect themselves. This girl was obviously not taught that sending nude pics of yourself to immature boys can cause her problems.

To me, the thing about all of this is that this is how people learn what not to do. I love it when people do stupid things and it bites them on the @$$. This is the essence of being human.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 12:45:36 PM , Rating: 2
Wrong and right are subjective. If you can't see that then you are WRONG, and it is not open to debate. The point being that wrong and right are beliefs, that are held individually, and are often in disagreement with other's.

quote:
What she didn't do to herself was forward the pics to his friends and that needs to be punished.

I agree. Never disagreed. There are two cases here, and they need be looked at independently of each other.
The one where someone sent the pictures without consent of the pictured, and the one where girls are being tried for taking and sending pictures of themselves.

CP laws are to stop abuse. They were written overly broad to have a chilling effect, which is now punishing those it sought to protect.

quote:
Children need more than physical control.

My point was that children don't have physical control, so you can teach them all you like and they still can do things you tought them not to do.

quote:
This girl was obviously not taught that sending nude pics of yourself to immature boys can cause her problems.


How do you say this is obvious? Children have minds of their own, and are not puppets/extensions of the parents.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 1:09:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My point was that children don't have physical control, so you can teach them all you like and they still can do things you tought them not to do


Edit... Parents don't have full physical control of children.


RE: Lack of values
By tmouse on 4/9/2009 10:19:16 AM , Rating: 2
"This is basically just a digital era versions of teens having sex or sexually experimenting with other teens"

Well yes and no. It is FAR more dangerous and if detected some form of punishment/education should be done. The fact that this is just not an act between two individuals and that others could get involved (after the fact) should be obvious. If we just choose to suspend these laws for minors what's to stop real pedophiles from hiring minors to procure the material? Ok; so you prosecute the adult but the damage is already done, victims are created and you will not be able to stop the distribution, so the consenting collaborator should get off Scott free? Let's take the two cases presented; in the first the guy has done significant damage to the girl by sending these pictures to others. You know some of these "friends" WILL forward these and so on and so on...Those pictures WILL get on the net it's just a matter of time. Did he intend it, more than likely not, but it will happen just the same. Should he get off Scott free? You would say should his life be ruined, well what about the victim? I'll admit it's not totally black and white but he does deserve punishment and certainly not just a ticket. He did not go to jail, maybe he should be compelled to send pictures of himself to all of the people he sent pictures of her to, it would be poetic justice, but would just add to the problem. In the second case the girl absolutely should be compelled to attend some sort of classes WITH her parents since both are stupid and she is clearly in need of help to prevent further endangering herself (and others since the pictures mentioned a friend so it is possible both were sending pictures but only her mother was making an issue of the punishment). She should not be put on a sex offender list(and it seems she has not). I would agree latitude should be used, to some extent it should also be used in other cases; like the guy who winds up on the registry for taking a leak when he is drunk and gets caught, maybe the first time should not require a sex offender tag ect. I do not know but a blanket pass is equally foolish. This type of behavior should NEVER be acceptable since it cannot be kept between the two 'consenting' people. Would you feel it would be ok for teens to have sex in public? Should that be just the jurisdiction of parents? I'll admit that is an extreme example but it's not really that far off the mark since neither of the two can truly control what happens to these types of pictures after they have send them, so NO I do not think we can or should accept it as just being part of growing up; to protect them from themselves. The degree of punishment I'll agree should have latitude depending on circumstances.


RE: Lack of values
By phattyboombatty on 4/9/2009 10:36:13 AM , Rating: 2
I've got some sympathy for the minors who get in trouble for sending nude pictures of themselves to their friends.

However, I don't have any sympathy for the 18 year old guy that distributed nude pictures of the 16 year old girl in a clear attempt to hurt and embarrass her.


RE: Lack of values
By dragonbif on 4/9/2009 11:49:43 AM , Rating: 2
This seems to be more about persone A sends a pick of them selves to person B. Person B gets mad at A and sends A's pick to the world without permission. Person A is a minnor and so a vary bad thing.
No matter how you look at it he send a pick of her to other people and that pick could have ended up on the internet. They can send to each other all they want but once they start doing it outside of that they have crossed the line. If a 14 year old girl sends picks of herself to her 16 year old boy toy and finds out that he has a web page with them posted should the boy get away with it because she send them to him?


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 12:50:45 PM , Rating: 2
If said 14 year old girl and 16 year old boy exchanged said pics, but neither of them redistributed them, should they be labeled as sex offenders?


RE: Lack of values
By dragonbif on 4/9/2009 7:12:52 PM , Rating: 2
How would anyone know about it???? If they do not give it out who would know? The only way for anyone to know what they were doing is if they shared it with someone ether by sending or just showing the picture on their phone to someone.
If they do not show or send or post they should not be labeled as sex offenders however I do not want to make a loop hold for the real ones out there. Some may not think it but there are 16 year old sick kids out there. Thats what makes this so hard dont you think?


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 9:17:57 AM , Rating: 2
No, I certainly wouldn't have send "explicit" photos of myself to my friends when I was younger. I had no desire to see my friends naked, nor did I have any desire for them to see me.

However, boyfriends and girlfriends? Absolutely, that sounds natural and normal, and I would be amazed if it wasn't happening.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:03:53 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is not the sending of the pics... although that is just stupid.

The problem is that this "man" decided to share those pics. He deserves to be punished in some form so that everyone learns not to do it.


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 10:07:34 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, I agree. I've said elsewhere in this rapidly growing thread that this guy deserves to be punished, and is a very bad example to use when arguing that it's wrong to charge teens for 'sexting.'

However, the poster I replied to seems to think sending pics is some kind of deviant aberration and moral failure. I was responding to him.


RE: Lack of values
By Mitch101 on 4/9/2009 9:47:27 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe its the modern day version of "if you show me yours I will show you mine." Except today it seems your a sex offender instead of a curious kid.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:06:08 AM , Rating: 2
This is a case of I'll show you all my ex-girlfriends.

It's a bit different.


RE: Lack of values
By Mitch101 on 4/9/2009 12:07:44 PM , Rating: 2
True this case is a bit different from that.

I just wonder how can you stop it? Cameras are put on everything today and this is one technology that has a lot of abuse potential. So much that some companies block you from bringing your camera phone to work. But there are a lot of public places where this is not enforced. This is one of those things that is going to get much worse and were going to hear more and more about it being abused.


RE: Lack of values
By JasonMick (blog) on 4/9/2009 9:00:35 AM , Rating: 2
More like our nation still has a tendency to prudishness that's an unfortunate legacy of its Puritan roots.

Teens are going to have sex. Its simple biology. I mean back in the Middle Ages, you'd be married with kids by 14. If you're a parent, and you can't stand this thought, don't let your kids out of the house except to go to school and sports. And if you don't want them "sexting", don't let them have cell phones.

These laws are seriously questionable, imo. Their purpose is to "protect" kids, but to do this they're ruining the lives of other kids.

Is it right to strip the job, college, and social development prospects of an 18 year old, or even a 16 year old, and public expose their name and address all because another underage kid consensually sent them sexual materials? That's insanity.

Sure there should be laws against exploitation of young people, but they shouldn't apply to teenagers. Parents should be the ones responsible for policing their kids relationships, not the government/law enforcement.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 9:12:56 AM , Rating: 2
the prosecutors are exploiting the kids for their own political gain i would say.


RE: Lack of values
By kart17wins on 4/9/2009 9:19:17 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
all because another underage kid consensually sent them sexual materials? That's insanity.


He didn't get in trouble for receiving the photo. He got in trouble for sending them out to family and friends when he was pissed at her.


RE: Lack of values
By zzeoss on 4/10/2009 1:42:15 AM , Rating: 1
So if you're a teen and want to ruin someone's life you just send them photos of yourself naked. Maybe, just maybe he/she'll send them to someone else and he get's fvcked.

This is wrong!
Why isn't she in trouble in the first place for commiting the original "crime": sending pictures of herlsef naked to her boyfriend?


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 9:27:09 AM , Rating: 5
I think this guy is a terrible example to base your argument on.

quote:
Is it right to strip the job, college, and social development prospects of an 18 year old, or even a 16 year old, and public expose their name and address all because another underage kid consensually sent them sexual materials? That's insanity.


That description completely contradicts your own article. The fact that his girlfriend sent him photos isn't the issue here, it's that HE sent those photos of HER to other people. I don't know if the punishment is proportionate, but what he did should unquestionably be considered criminal.

I think it's ludicrous for teens to be charged for sending explicit photos of themselves to other teens (or receiving those photos), but sending photos of someone else without consent is just plain wrong. The fact that the girl was a minor exacerbates the issue, but it would be wrong even if she was an adult.


RE: Lack of values
By JasonMick (blog) on 4/9/2009 9:40:58 AM , Rating: 3
I agree with you that what this kid (Alpert) did was very stupid. He should be charged with some sort of libel/slander civil charges, though, not as a sex offender.

But what about teens like Marissa Miller? Should she be charged as a sex offender? Or charged at all? Because she sent pictures to some teenage boy, likely, who got caught by his mom who turned them over to police?

Should she be a sex offender and stripped of her rights and denied a future? Does it make sense to charge someone for "sexually exploiting" themselves and punish them to "protect" them? All because she was acting on a normal biological impulse?

Based on your previous comments I think you agree that this is ridiculous.


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 9:49:33 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Based on your previous comments I think you agree that this is ridiculous.

Yeah, in her case I agree that it is absurd.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:30:40 AM , Rating: 2
Some people's normal impulse is to kill, rape, steal, etc... yet we regulate things that are deemed good for society as a whole. Some things are personal and should be. Some things are societal and should be.

There are two ways to look at this.

A. She sent her pictures voluntarily and she has to deal with the fact that they are now in "the wild".
or
B. She sent them and that's OK, but the guy has less than zero rights to forward those to other people.

I think marking him as a sex offender on par with a rapist is stupid, BUT he deserves some kind of mark on him for what he did. Without consequences he (and others) will never learn what society deems as inappropriate. This lesson needs to be taught.

His life should not be ruined, but it needs to hurt him.


RE: Lack of values
By AMDJunkie on 4/9/2009 11:07:54 AM , Rating: 2
I question the philosophy of anyone who believes punishment should exclusively harm instead of reform. Or that the former is the exclusive way to the latter.

Why does he deserve a mark? The only way he could repeat this scenario is that an under-aged girlfriend sends him porn SMS's and then breaks up with him. I don't think he'll be repeating it again, so I think scarlet letters will be unnecessary.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 11:36:18 AM , Rating: 2
This IS reform.

I don't mean mark as in harm. Human nature is that pain causes us to avoid similar (not just identical) situations in the future. The sex-offender tag is excessive, but that's the fault of the law being not fine-grained enough. One way or another A. he needs to remember this lesson, and B. others need to see him as an example of what not to do.

Laws need to balance grace and forgiveness with punishment that acts as a deterrent.


RE: Lack of values
By tmouse on 4/9/2009 10:33:53 AM , Rating: 2
As I posted in another section; while I do not think she should be charged as a sex offender she should be treated as let's say a teen who attempts suicide and compelled to get help (WITH her parents). It show that her family clearly has not provided her with enough common sense to not endanger herself by doing these sort of actions. If she wound up in the same predicament as the first girl I'll bet her mother would be raising holy hell and not see her daughter shares some of the responsibility for the situation. What has happened to common sense? There have been cheap cameras around for decades and this has never been a problem. Probably because we knew there would be a middle man (the developer) but come on has common sense really totally disappeared? It does not take a 200+ IQ to realize these pictures are in some else's control forever. Maybe we need a common sense class around third grade.


RE: Lack of values
By bhieb on 4/9/2009 10:18:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Again, you're entitled to your opinion but just because you and your friends didn't have sex as teens, doesn't mean that you necessarily have the right to enforce this view of morality on others?


Our Puritan roots being unfortunate is your opinion, and you have not right to enforce your lackluster view of morality either.


RE: Lack of values
By rdeegvainl on 4/9/2009 11:21:11 AM , Rating: 2
so you agree that morality should not be enforce because of differing morals?


RE: Lack of values
By bhieb on 4/9/2009 5:16:50 PM , Rating: 2
I believe in our system and the laws are enforced/created because of the majority of people agree. I think it is a fine line, and should be kept out of laws as much as possible. I happen to agree that shrewd outdated policies need to be questioned. My comment was more a jab at Jason since he is the one who said not to force morality in one post, then proceeds to force his own view of what morality he thinks is "correct".


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:25:31 AM , Rating: 2
You're like most socially-liberal people that want to remove the benefits of puritan morality without offering a solution to the consequences or an alternative to the benefits that are provided by a strong moral grounding.

Whatever your belief, we have to agree that puritan type beliefs prevented a lot of teen-sex and the results of that sex, which is early pregnancy, rape, child porn, and other "deviant" behavior. It worked. It's normal that society gets more sexually open, but to remove the boundaries without offering education, guiding morals, or some other kind of barrier to entry is just foolish.

Now we have a few generations without built in belief that sex is not a toy to be passed around without care. But we haven't have any common sense approach. Sure we teach what sex is and functionally how it works, but that's not enough. Isn't there any common sense that children/some teens are simply not psychologically or emotionally able to handle everything that surrounds sex?

You can't just throw a bag of crack into a room full of uneducated people who are not prepared to think through the consequences of delving into that drug. Without common sense and logic taught to them they are essentially animals who will do whatever is "fun". We, as a society, are left to clean up the mess later because WE failed to teach them how to handle thing or we failed to keep it away from them until they were mature enough to handle it.

Sex isn't harmless and sex isn't just fun without worry.


RE: Lack of values
By AMDJunkie on 4/9/2009 11:03:00 AM , Rating: 1
You're comparing sex to crack? Seriously?

Besides, it was the same Puritan morality that wanted "abstinence-only" education in schools across the country. Because, you know, teaching young adults (don't tell me you thought yourself a "kid" in high school, or else you're a liar or a shut-in) how to have safe sex is like saying that we shouldn't teach our kids chemistry in case they develop pipe bombs. And don't make me go hunt down the articles that show abstinence-only education is a flop; Google it yourself.

Sex only seems "dangerous" because it's common in American culture to keep people as ignorant of it as possible. Although study of the original Puritans will show they aren't as "Puritanical" as they are made out to be today, it's also bunk that a religious morality is better than any other, and especially the "moral grounding" we have in this country. Have the Dutch transformed into a vicious, cruel and atavistic people for becoming less religious? Uh, no.

Back to the topic; the debate seems to be centered on the case of Alpert, where some sort of wrongdoing was done, but it seems the punishment has been cruel and unusual compared to the act done. I'll throw in my two cents: even though he sent the nude pictures out to spite his ex-girlfriend, it was only to her family and friends. This wasn't uploading child porn to some public image board for any pervert to have. To call that "distribution" in the sense that you want to share your treasure trove of under-aged porn with other pervs like you is a stretch, which is why the law prosecutes against distributing underaged porn.

It's also the case that she's bloody sixteen; just because she isn't a "legal" adult doesn't mean she wasn't developmentally an adult, and since females' brains develop faster than males, she probably all the rational faculties necessary to make the adult decision to send him porn of herself. I see it as a more permanent form of your girlfriend flashing you before you have to go back home because your parents are going to bitch at you for breaking curfew. But hey, if you think that's perverse, let's squash teenage romance for good. We can install cameras in couches across the country too; we'll catch that heavy petting in progress and send in the SWAT team. No despoiled maidens in this country.

(Does that mean the security guard watching the video feed is watching child pornography live? We should arrest them every month, because they'll become filthy, deranged perverts just doing their job for too long.)


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 11:55:50 AM , Rating: 2
Please... I'm not comparing sex to crack. Did you read my post? I don't think I'm talking about a terribly difficult concept.

I'm comparing the inability of certain people to properly think through situations either because they are immature or simply uneducated.

We fail young people by not teaching them some important things while they're young.

Short term thinking is a problem. Trading one moment of fun for years of misery happens all the time. Kids need to understand that there are real life-changing consequences to everything and that nothing is free.

Please read my other post and stop reading in between the lines. I actually SAID what I mean.

I'm not promoting abstinence as the only method for education. I'm saying that there were benefits for this kind of attitude toward sex. Yes there were *definitely* negatives too. But it's foolish to remove all barriers without proper education and protection. Sex without maturity or education can have serious effects on people and to think otherwise is highly ignorant.

quote:
even though he sent the nude pictures out to spite his ex-girlfriend, it was only to her family and friends. This wasn't uploading child porn to some public image board for any pervert to have.

You're splitting hairs and making exceptions. I agree that he should not be equated to a rapist, but he does deserve some kind of consequence for his legal wrongdoing, otherwise what's the point of even having the law?

The law needs to change in some form so that people like Alpert are not ruined, but other deserving people are still punished. That's a matter for the courts.

The last half of your post seems to indicate that you have a chip on your shoulder against religious views about sex. I understand that because I agree that a lot of it is stupid and overbearing. But you are also going too far in saying that the religious establishment wants to be the big brother of sex. Instead of saying "hey, lets be reasonable", you're striking out against perfectly valid ideas and points that lie very close to center just because some of them resemble something that you deem as religious. This is a shame. Abstinence is NOT a religious idea and abstinence is one of many sex education topics that needs to be taught. Kids need options and abstinence may be an option that works for 10% of kids. But because people are so anti-religious, they kick and scream and throw the baby out with the bathwater. Who suffers? Kids. They suffer because they are taught only one thing and the other valid points are ignored.

Teaching *all* people via one method is stupid. People are not robots and are not all the same. We learn differently and what is good for you may be less than ideal for me.

All I ever do here and elsewhere is call for logical, common sense approaches to the issues. But because people are unable to see past their own bias and the chips on their shoulder, many good ideas are immediately thrown out. It's a crying shame.


RE: Lack of values
By AMDJunkie on 4/9/2009 7:42:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kids need options and abstinence may be an option that works for 10% of kids. But because people are so anti-religious, they kick and scream and throw the baby out with the bathwater. Who suffers? Kids. They suffer because they are taught only one thing and the other valid points are ignored.

There's no problem with teaching abstinence as, say, the only way to prevent transmission of STDs and avoid pregnancies 100% of the time. But to think that you can advocate abstinence to children until some arbitrary point seems foolish to me too, because that just makes sex something mysterious and exclusive only to adults. Like that makes kids not want to do it... I'd also say your rhetorical figure of 10% being entirely too high.

Otherwise, abstinence is already taught to us by experience, and to most DT'ers, enforced by society. Kids should know that abstinence is the only way to truly avoid STDs and pregnancy 100%, but that should not be taught if it somehow blocks the message that safe sex is in fact safe , and much better than the alternative of letting hormones take over with no protection and no guidance as to what's safe.
quote:
You're splitting hairs and making exceptions. I agree that he should not be equated to a rapist, but he does deserve some kind of consequence for his legal wrongdoing, otherwise what's the point of even having the law?

We have distinctions between involuntary manslaughter and first-degree murder. Certainly there needs to be a difference between those who create porn involving the youngest and most vulnerable members of society, and a guy being a prick and telling his ex-girlfriend's family and friends that she's a slut through pictures. You yourself say that Alpert shouldn't be punished as harshly as he was, just punished in an appropriate fashion. I agree, but you have to realize that sometimes you do have to split hairs and make exceptions to make the punishment fit the crime. Our "think of the children" laws often need such refinement.

We probably agree far more than you think. I just thought the idea of comparing kids having sex together in their formative years to dropping a bag of crack to a bunch of addicts just too ridiculous to let stand. You want there to be sex education, and for people to understand there are consequences for actions. That's perfectly fine too. You yourself say that a lack of education may very well be the cause of our problems. Well, knowing what sex is, how it's done safely , and getting a developing teen to learn their own relationship to sex are all learning tools to help those who will be having sex build a healthy sex life. And that's what we should have, a relationship with sex, not a fear of it. Don't hide sex, don't abuse it either; just respect it.


RE: Lack of values
By bety on 4/9/2009 4:52:23 PM , Rating: 2
SSSHHHHHHH.....

You're making too much sense. IN future, please try to add more non-logical conclusions, knee-jerk reactions and ultra-liberal/vacuous thought. Thank you.


RE: Lack of values
By Fritzr on 4/9/2009 8:04:35 PM , Rating: 2
The ones receiving the pics have a very simple and extremely effective defense ... the delete key ... no pics==no poessession. It is also difficult to be charged with distributing pictures if you delete them instead of sending them.


RE: Lack of values
By TomZ on 4/9/2009 9:07:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
More like a lack of values
That type of dismissive attitude is part of why there is a problem in the first place. Just label the teens and/or their parents and stupid and the problem will go away...?

The fact of the matter, whether you care to admit it or not, is that many teens at that age are sexually active, so it is no surprise that they are sending explicit photos. The real question is, should that really be a crime? I don't think so.


RE: Lack of values
By ccmfreak2 on 4/9/2009 9:14:27 AM , Rating: 2
Sexual activity is one thing, taking pictures of yourself nude and sending it to people is another. The fact is the individual is underaged and - by definition - a child. The fact is the child is nude in the photo. Photo of an underaged nude child is by definition "child pornography". If these are allowed, they will undoubted eventually end up online. Some sick website being hosted in Africa will pick them up, and it will continue to feed a disturbing industry.

Sexual activity is not in question here. The photographing and distributing of this activity is what is in question.


RE: Lack of values
By TomZ on 4/9/2009 9:29:02 AM , Rating: 2
There's no doubt that what you say is possible, and could contribute to the problem of child porn. But that really is not the issue here, is it? After all, the girl took the photo of herself and sent it out. She created the "child porn." But only the guy is charged with a crime because he is technically an adult? That's just wrong.


RE: Lack of values
By VaultDweller on 4/9/2009 9:47:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Photo of an underaged nude child is by definition "child pornography".

That is not true by definition.

The nudity of the child does not automatically make a photo pornographic, nor is the photo automatically non-pornographic if the child has clothes on.

Nudity != pornography.


RE: Lack of values
By 91TTZ on 4/9/2009 10:09:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The fact is the individual is underaged and - by definition - a child. The fact is the child is nude in the photo. Photo of an underaged nude child is by definition "child pornography".


Yes, but what about when the child takes pictures of themself and sends them to people? Is it reasonable to charge that CHILD as an adult for child porn charges? If the government wants to treat them as an adult, then the child porn charges should not apply. They're either an adult or a child. You can't treat the child as both simultaneously.


RE: Lack of values
By Moishe on 4/9/2009 10:32:11 AM , Rating: 2
Are you saying it was not stupid to send pics of herself to a boy? Are you saying it was stupid to not forward those pictures to his friends?

Face it, it was stupid. It's a valid label even if it doesn't "help".


RE: Lack of values
By raelalt on 4/13/2009 7:18:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
by Moishe on April 9, 2009 at 10:32 AM Are you saying it was not stupid to send pics of herself to a boy? Are you saying it was stupid to not forward those pictures to his friends? Face it, it was stupid. It's a valid label even if it doesn't "help".


Last time I checked, stupidity wasn't illegal.


RE: Lack of values
By Etern205 on 4/9/2009 12:02:31 PM , Rating: 1
When I was their ages I don't take a naked pic of myself or the people I know and place them all over the internet.

"...this is a fairly natural and normal thing for them to do"

Seriously you need to come visit the past where punishment is with a leather belt and then you'll learn something about moral values.

GET YOUR BRAIN CHECK!


RE: Lack of values
By LumbergTech on 4/9/2009 12:53:51 PM , Rating: 2
Oh yes, we should solve all teen sex issues by whippings with leather belts......wait a minute......


RE: Lack of values
By Takemaru on 4/9/2009 1:32:19 PM , Rating: 2
the whole thing is utterly absurd and in the end it'll only wind up making life easier for the real pedophiles after the whole statute gets its teeth removed in constitutional challenges. All because some overzelous DA's are trying to score political points with more sex offense convictions by destroying the lives of children.


RE: Lack of values
By Belard on 4/9/2009 2:50:38 PM , Rating: 2
When you were their AGE, most liky you were not in the internet age with digital cameras and phones, I wasn't.

Thats the thing... in the OLD days, you took photos with your Polorid which would allow you to do personal nudes, or you took your film to the photo lab (not so private)... which WILL process nude photos of adults... but sex acts are not allowed and sex or nude children means a call to the police.

Nowadays, young teens have cellphones... we didn't have this tech until the past few years... when internet is fast and cellphones are cheap.

Its like me saying "I didn't do the things my 4 year old does!" - thats because, unlike him - personal computers we're just hitting the market at thousands of dollars even the VCR was a new thing. He has is own XP computer and a game console that is far more advanced than anything I owned in my teens. Hopefully he won't be required to have a cel phone until he's at least 15... I don't see that happening. :(


RE: Lack of values
By Etern205 on 4/9/2009 11:11:44 PM , Rating: 2
Comparing photo processing from past and present, the digital age of photography has less privacy and here's why.

During the age when 35mm films were used to take photos, that person would take it to a photo lab to get their photos processed. Processing those films requires a dark room since normal light would destroy it and with so many roll of films to work on, who has all the time to do it. Thus a machine is used to do all the work and it's all automated from developing of the photos even to the packaging (saw one of those photo processing machines before).

Digital photos on the other hand are not so private since how does a photo lab technican process those pictures? All I've seen was, took some digital photos during vacation and decided to get them processed at a photo lab. The technican told me to insert the memory card and all he did was copied it to his computer (right on the desktop). Yeah some privacy that was, and now he can peek at the pictures I've took before he uses a regular printer to print them out.

Now are there automated photo processing machines with card readers? Maybe there is, but I don't really know if it exist or not.

Anyway, it's up to the child to make the right decision since a parent can only do so much.


culture
By fic2 on 4/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: culture
By Oregonian2 on 4/9/2009 1:55:20 PM , Rating: 2
Child pornography laws are in place for the purpose of protecting the young from rape and pornographers who will seriously affect their lives that they have ahead of them.

Sexting does not fall into this category because the "evil deed" is being done by one's self through one's own motivation, probably in private. It's like robbing one's own savings by going to the bank and withdrawing all of one's own funds and calling it "bank robbery".

Even the secondary distribution doesn't violate the purpose of the laws. Getting rid of distributors is to devalue the images so that they won't be taken in the first place by unsavory types. With the photos being self-made the distribution reasoning goes away once distribution is done by the self-photographer.

Your arguments about "part of their culture" is very valid and a good one, but is missing the point that the intent of the child porn laws is not being violated. The wording of the laws have a bug in them -- but bureaucrats don't notice or care.

Yes, it's not a good thing (just as emptying out one's bank account isn't), but it should be the subject of a more personal "family court" prosecution, not a government one.


RE: culture
By glennpratt on 4/9/2009 5:10:20 PM , Rating: 3
I don't think you can say that just because the photo was self made, that removes the reasoning for preventing distribution.

Consider a manipulative person influencing a minor to create and distribute for example. I agree that minors shouldn't be locked up over this, but I do think it's fair to minimize it and educate those involved.


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