backtop


Print 54 comment(s) - last by yaleman.. on Dec 13 at 6:41 PM


Toshiba SCiB Cell  (Source: Toshiba)

Toshiba SCiB Standard Module  (Source: Toshiba)
90% recharged batteries in less than 5 minutes that will still recharge even 10 years later? Where do I sign up?

When many think of rechargeable batteries the first thing to mind when making a wish list is a longer life for the battery, but that is only part of the issue with rechargeable battery. Another big part of the picture when it comes to rechargeable batteries is how long it takes to charge the battery.

Toshiba announced today that it has developed a new type of rechargeable battery dubbed the Super Charge ion Battery (SCiB). Toshiba claims the new battery will mainly target the industrial market, though representatives hint the technology may eventually find a home in electric vehicles.

The main claim to fame for the SCiB battery is that it can recharge to 90% of total capacity in fewer than five minutes. Toshiba also claims the battery has a life span of over 10-years.

Toshiba says that it adopted a new negative electrode material, new separators, a new electrolyte and new manufacturing technology to bring the SCiB to life.

The SCiB batteries can recharge with as much as 50 amperes of current and but with capacity loss after 3,000 cycles of less than 10%. Toshiba also says the battery has excellent safety with the new negative electrode material having a high level of thermal stability and a high flash point. The battery is also said to be structurally resistant to internal short-circuiting and thermal runaway.

Anyone familiar with the technology industry will know what Toshiba is most known for, the massive battery recalls in notebook computers from early this year.


Though not as widespread as Sony's battery woes, Toshiba wants to put these fears of using its products out of the minds of buyers. If the battery technology makes it into notebook computers and other consumer electronics, it could revolutionize mobility.

The first of these batteries will be ready for industrial uses in March of 2008.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Amazing
By UppityMatt on 12/11/2007 3:15:16 PM , Rating: 3
If this does everything that the article claims, its going to revolutionize the way we use mobile technologies. Can you imagine using a laptop for 2-3 hours and only have to plug it in for 5 minutes to be at 90% battery life again. WOW!




RE: Amazing
By GhandiInstinct on 12/11/07, Rating: -1
RE: Amazing
By gradoman on 12/11/2007 3:22:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Toshiba also says the battery has excellent safety with the new negative electrode material having a high level of thermal stability and a high flash point. The battery is also said to be structurally resistant to internal short-circuiting and thermal runaway.


And I'm supposed to believe you for what reason? Care to explain why they'd blow up?


RE: Amazing
By Moishe on 12/11/2007 3:41:06 PM , Rating: 2
Chances are Toshiba actually knows what they're doing... Got any way to back that up or are you just trolling?


RE: Amazing
By Alexstarfire on 12/11/2007 3:23:40 PM , Rating: 2
Too bad they don't say how many cycles the battery can go through before it's all used up. 3000 cycles for an electric vehicle can be used in less than a year. I guess that would depend on how far the car can go in 1 charge, among other things.


RE: Amazing
By Jedi2155 on 12/11/2007 3:30:59 PM , Rating: 3
It's all about wear leveling and managment. The NiMH cells are typically advertised to lsat around 500-100 "Full discharge cycles" but we see some of them still going strong in some Priuses at 250,000+ miles. Li-Ion technology were typically advertised to be around 300-500 cycles and we're going to put them into EV's.

I think 3000 cycles is far greater than anything in the consumer market right now....assuming they actually do what it says it does.


RE: Amazing
By Jedi2155 on 12/11/2007 3:46:28 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, from the PR itself

quote:
2. Long-life cycle
Capacity loss after 3,000 cycles of rapid charge and discharge is less than 10%. SCiB has an excellent long lifecycle, and is able to repeat the charge-discharge cycle over 5,000 times. This means that the SCiB can be continuously used for more than 10 years with a once-a-day recharge-discharge cycle.


RE: Amazing
By Etsp on 12/11/2007 3:32:16 PM , Rating: 4
I won't be buying an electric car if I have to recharge it 8 to 10 times a day...


RE: Amazing
By retrospooty on 12/11/2007 4:48:32 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... ya, I think his math is a lil bit off ;)


RE: Amazing
By Chernobyl68 on 12/11/2007 7:15:57 PM , Rating: 2
5 minutes would make it essentially the same as filling up your car at a gas station. So it makes it feasible to take your electric only car on cross country trips. You might have to fill up more often, but at least it won't take you hours to recharge your car battery pack.


RE: Amazing
By Ringold on 12/11/2007 9:55:15 PM , Rating: 3
That'll be good for resteraunts.

Imagine; 2-3 parking spaces at every fast food and Cracker Barrel across America along high-ways with a simple plug in port and a device like a coin-operated parking meter.. feed it a dollar, or whatever the energy is worth plus a profitable mark-up, then go to the bathroom, get a cheeseburger, or sit down to eat. Come back, ready to go.

Beautiful. Probably not a huge profit machine, but a boon in convenience.


RE: Amazing
By mcnabney on 12/12/2007 12:21:58 AM , Rating: 2
That would actually be a brilliant idea. Kind of like having Redbox at all of the McDonalds restaurants. It is just power coming off the grid. All they would need is some electrical work and they can start generating a revenue stream. It is 5 years off at the very earliest, but it is good to get the marketing in front of the problem for once.


RE: Amazing
By spluurfg on 12/11/2007 8:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
But perhaps a hybrid vehicle where the batteries are being recharged by a gasoline engine and recycled energy from the braking system? Granted though, even then I doubt you'd see 8-10 full charge/discharge cycles.


RE: Amazing
By leexgx on 12/11/07, Rating: 0
RE: Amazing
By HaZaRd2K6 on 12/11/2007 3:32:24 PM , Rating: 2
If this battery can put in anywhere near as much mileage as my car can put on a single tank of gas (somewhere in the region of 500-600km depending on conditions and aggressiveness), then it'll be charged/discharged nowhere near 3,000 times in a year. It just makes sense not to plug it in when it's not needed. Do you fill your car up with gas after every trip? The same would apply here: only plug it in when it's needed.

As for mobile applications, what would be really great is if they could make it backwards-compatible for older applications. When my laptop battery eventually dies, I'd love to buy one of these to replace it instead of using "old" Lithium ions. And cellphone batteries could last even longer and charge in even shorter amounts of time. My Samsung's battery only takes about an hour to fully charge from being completely dead and if I don't make any calls it lasts me about four or five days without needing to be charged.


RE: Amazing
By rcc on 12/11/2007 4:55:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When my laptop battery eventually dies, I'd love to buy one of these to replace it instead of using "old" Lithium ions


It would be nice, however, even if it works the recharge benefit wouldn't be there as you'd have to replace the recharging circuit in the notebook computer as well. Still a step up though. Same with the cell phone.

They could provide an external charger for retrofit applications. Then you could either let it charge slowly in place, or pull it out for a quick charge.

OTOH, it does beg one more question. Anything that is sucking up 50 amps of current is likely to get warm, and if future units are built into consumer electrics you're talking about providing much more robust power supplies and power routing.


RE: Amazing
By Chernobyl68 on 12/11/2007 7:13:38 PM , Rating: 2
to make it compatible with existing laptops (as ina replacement battery) the charging circuit would need to be able of handling the high current draw, which isn't likely.
Also, if they're stating 50 amps of house current (120v), anybody happen to know how many 50 amp breakers you have in your house? damn few...


RE: Amazing
By DigitalFreak on 12/11/2007 8:34:11 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think I've ever even seen a 50A 120v circuit. Most anything over 20A is 208/240v


RE: Amazing
By mindless1 on 12/11/2007 11:37:26 PM , Rating: 2
They aren't claiming 50A of household AC current, it's the current rate for charging the cells at their respective voltage.

Note that means in some applications the voltage could even be higher than 120V, but for most it would be lower.

Note also it is meant for industrial uses, not a replacement for your consumer devices that're charged from a residential wall outlet.

IF the tech took off and everyone started buying battery powered cars, it wouldn't be a big deal to wire a garage to supply 50A @ 120V, but more significant would be the toll on existing power infrastructure because it means up to multiple times the power delivery to any part of a grid in the evening when everyone comes home and charges their car.


RE: Amazing
By tallcool1 on 12/11/2007 3:36:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Can you imagine using a laptop for 2-3 hours and only have to plug it in for 5 minutes to be at 90% battery life again. WOW!

Yea, that would be great EXCEPT the article clearly states that this new battery technology will be...
quote:
Toshiba claims the new battery will mainly the industrial market, and perhaps eventually in electric vehicles.


RE: Amazing
By LumbergTech on 12/11/2007 3:46:51 PM , Rating: 2
aka very expensive


RE: Amazing
By TomZ on 12/11/2007 3:55:54 PM , Rating: 2
Not entirely. Industrial applications are more willing to adopt the high-power chargers that would be required to quick-charge this type of battery. The common 50-100W AC adapters we use today with laptops don't come anywhere close to providing enough power to recharge this type of battery quickly. So the cost and size of the charger are probably issues that make it challenging for consumer use.


RE: Amazing
By rudy on 12/11/2007 3:48:56 PM , Rating: 2
If they really thought it was useful in that market they would already be jumping in, since they are not it is apparent this battery has some drawback such as its heavy or expensive. Most likely it is just to large for mobile applications. Second you will need new outlets to handle 50 amps, something more likely to be used in fork lifts or as they say industrial applications.


RE: Amazing
By TomZ on 12/11/2007 4:01:29 PM , Rating: 2
That's 50A at 2.4-24V, which is 120-1200W which is in the range of what can be sourced by a typical 120VAC outlet.


RE: Amazing
By mcnabney on 12/12/2007 12:25:55 AM , Rating: 2
For reference, the small space heater sitting behind me draws 1500 watts. So does your hair dryer.


RE: Amazing
By Resh on 12/11/2007 4:03:43 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder if the high recharge rate is a function of the current supplied at charging? If so, this 5 mins to reach 90% might only apply when it is fed 50 amps. Do the plugs we use for electric ovens/ranges supply 50 amps @ 240V?


RE: Amazing
By rcc on 12/11/2007 5:08:52 PM , Rating: 2
It is absolutely a function of the current that can be supplied. If it's only 25 amps, you can double the charge time, etc.

As far as house current goes, as a rough example (very rought with no losses or conversions). If it's sucking up 50 amps at 24v, you'd need 5 amps at 240v from your wall outlet. And yes, I know there are losses, and you have to convert AC to DC, etc. It's just a quick and dirty comparison.


RE: Amazing
By Fnoob on 12/11/2007 8:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
I'd imagine these in a vehicle application could seriously benefit from regenerative breaking. Better still, a fancy new 'charge on the fly' highway system? Automatic charging at red lights? For 90% capacity within 5min, getting a little here and a little there would max them out on a short trip to.. wherever.


RE: Amazing
By acabtp on 12/13/2007 1:50:26 PM , Rating: 2
That wouldn't really work... Even though you'd be able to get the power into the battery much faster, it's still the same amount of power. So the whatever your hybrid car might have been able to charge by idling for 20 minutes could now be done in one minute, but require half or full throttle to keep up with the power demand. If you're putting X kw into the battery, it takes X kw of gasoline (charging off the motor) and/or trapped kinetic energy (regenerative braking), whether the charging time is a minute or an hour. This sort of tech will not make hybrids more efficient per se; just makes the energy storage more flexible to demands that vary over time. Nobody gets a free lunch.


RE: Amazing
By inperfectdarkness on 12/11/2007 9:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
50 amps max charging power. so you could probably charge in 25 minutes on 10 amps power.

this will definately be used in forklifts long before anything else. the bloody things are still using lead-acid batteries. huge inconvienience to have a lift down on the charger when you need to use it.

it also costs $$$ more in the long run, because you have employees pulling it off charge prematurely for work...and reducing the battery life.

by the time this becomes available in laptops...your current laptops will be long obsolete. i wouldn't worry about it.


New Market
By Shadowmaster625 on 12/11/2007 4:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
This could create a new market for hybrid engines and charging systems. Instead of having a hybrid where the gasoline/diesel engine kicks on after the batteries get low, we'll have hybrids with a gasoline/diesel engine that kicks on and charges the batteries for a few minutes (through a high powered alternator) and then turns back off.




RE: New Market
By FITCamaro on 12/11/2007 4:29:59 PM , Rating: 5
You mean cars such as the Chevy Volt concept? No it can't charge the battery in 5 minutes but the gas motor is not used to move the car at all. Just as an electric generator.


RE: New Market
By TomZ on 12/11/2007 4:40:03 PM , Rating: 4
This is basically the same approach as used in diesel-electric locomotives, developed 90 years ago and widely used since then. Not exactly a new concept.


RE: New Market
By TomZ on 12/11/2007 4:35:01 PM , Rating: 2
That's an interesting concept, however, it results in an engine with far higher instantaneous power output than would be required for the vehicle if the engine was used in a more conventional way. This yields an engine that is much larger, heavier, and more costly than would be required. The size and weight take away more efficiency, and the cost reduces acceptance of the approach.

And running a bit engine for a short period of time isn't really any more or less efficient than running a small engine for a longer time period.


Sorry, what?
By Muirgheasa on 12/11/2007 5:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
Hang on, what now?

quote:
Anyone familiar with the technology industry will know what Toshiba is most known for, the massive battery recalls in notebook computers from early this year.


Not the fact that they're one of the world's leading laptop manufacturers, or that they have been for I'm not sure how many years, but their relatively minor battery recalls.

That statement absolutely stinks of a journalist who hasn't spent enough time thinking about what he's writing; after all, Sony's battery problems were far more publicised and I still don't think that's what they're "best known for". In fact, for a company as well established as Toshiba, I don't think any scandal like that could become "what they're best known for" in such a short space of time.

Also, and I know this has been done to death before, this is meant to be a reputable news site, so why are there constant errors in spelling and syntax in almost every article? The news coverage is second to none here, but why can't the writers spend just a little more time on each story?

Sorry, rant over.




RE: Sorry, what?
By BruceLeet on 12/11/2007 5:34:01 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, then answer for us why you come to this site?


RE: Sorry, what?
By Lotus SE on 12/11/2007 8:55:29 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, the article that is linked states that that "massive battery recall" effected only 1400units... Hardly massive, especially compared to Sony, Apple, & Dell's recall #'s for batterys.


RE: Sorry, what?
By Lotus SE on 12/11/2007 8:56:47 PM , Rating: 2
That should have been batteries... Still need edit feature


RE: Sorry, what?
By Hare on 12/12/2007 9:52:28 AM , Rating: 2
There has been at least 4 recalls this year. Try google "toshiba battery recall". At least one recall was around 10 000 batteries.


RE: Sorry, what?
By Hare on 12/12/2007 9:54:26 AM , Rating: 2
"Major Japanese electronics maker Toshiba Corp. said it is recalling 830 000 batteries made by Sony for its laptops, the latest in a growing global recall ..." - CBSnews

"Toshiba Corp. has offered to exchange 340 000 notebook computer batteries" - ITWorld


Ok power output figure is here.
By nurbsenvi on 12/12/2007 7:10:07 AM , Rating: 2
2.4v * 4.2amp / .15kg = 67.2 Wh /kg

Power needed for average vehicle to cruise at 100kmh = 7.5kw

7500w / 67.2Wh = 111.6kg is needed to travel at 100kmh for an hour.

you'd probably want 500km range so...

111.6kg x 5 = 558kg

Is this correct?

Anyway in comparison Tesla Roadster has following spec

# Full-charge time: 3½ hours.[12]
# Electric energy: about 53 kWh
# Total mass: between 900 and 1000 lbs (400-450kg)




By nurbsenvi on 12/12/2007 7:12:08 AM , Rating: 2
# Total mass: between 900 and 1000 lbs (400-450kg)
That's battery only


RE: Ok power output figure is here.
By mcnabney on 12/12/2007 11:27:24 AM , Rating: 2
You are a little off. A really efficient EV car can get 4 miles down the road when consuming 1 kw(hour is assumed).

Lots of things can impact how much 'power' is required for highway speeds. Rate of discharge and voltage of the batteries in addition to any gearing and the torque available in the motor.

Also, the Tesla Roadster uses Li-ion batteries (which hold 3x the power kg for kg as Toshiba's new battery technology). Tesla's battery pack weighs 1000 pounds and has a range a little over 200 miles in a very efficient design. Using these would require at best 3000 pounds, and since you want a 500km range I would push that up to two metric tonnes. Not going to happen.


honestly, this really isn't that incredible
By acabtp on 12/13/2007 1:42:22 PM , Rating: 2
It seems pretty obvious that they've just packaged chemical super-capacitors in a battery replacement form. It's been coming for a while, but I am glad to see them start to hit the market finally. Here's a link from '05 with a DIY one (the read link is now missing, but you get the idea and can find the PDF elsewhere on the intertubes if you're interested)... http://handhelds.hackaday.com/2005/12/06/supercap-...
And that one's even in a consumer sized replacement format that most of you posters seem to be expecting/looking for.




By yaleman on 12/13/2007 6:41:02 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder...
By Oregonian2 on 12/11/2007 7:35:58 PM , Rating: 3
I do notice right away that they don't list anything about
power density in terms of size or weight in Toshiba's list.
I wonder how it compares to current standard products in that
regard.




Interesting
By Schugy on 12/11/2007 6:28:55 PM , Rating: 2
I'm dying to max out my 400V 3-phase current connector. But maybe I need to build my own Repower 5M wind turbine into my garden.




Chemistry type?
By ninjit on 12/11/2007 7:08:57 PM , Rating: 2
I'm guessing Lithium-Ion from the name but it isn't really stated anywhere in the article.




Big Problem
By mcnabney on 12/12/2007 12:48:58 AM , Rating: 2
This new technology has a huge problem.

It can only provide about 50 Watt-hours/Kg.
This is similar to NiMH, but is dwarfed by Li-Ion which delivers 150 Wh/kg.

Let's see. For a EV passenger car getting 2 miles per kwh and desiring a range of, say, 300 miles between charges to mimic the combustion engine. You will need 3000kg of batteries. Not going to happen. That means that cars using this battery are going to have limited range. Like maybe 60 miles between fillups (and the battery will still weigh half a ton)




By nurbsenvi on 12/12/2007 6:23:11 AM , Rating: 2
kudos to Toshiba!
by the way what's the power output and price?




Battery life?????
By birdofprey on 12/13/2007 4:21:47 PM , Rating: 2
There is no mention of the dishcarge rate. The discharge rate is the most important factor in determining a batteries life.

The article mentions you can charge them at 50c but doesnt mention the discharge rate.

I find the claim of 3000 chargers a little strange without specifying a discharge rate.

I use this type of battery(LI/LIPO) in very high current draw applications and know the key tpo a batteries long life is living under the manufacturers discharge rating. The article mentions nothing about discharge ratings!




Pro-SCiB
By Cygni on 12/11/07, Rating: -1
RE: Pro-SCiB
By Cygni on 12/11/2007 7:24:24 PM , Rating: 1
I guess some people arent PBF fans around here. ;)


RE: Pro-SCiB
By Ringold on 12/11/2007 11:29:34 PM , Rating: 2
http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF232-The_Unforgiving_T...

Can I bill you for the last hour that Googling "PBF" cost me? :)


"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki