Print 92 comment(s) - last by DeepBlue1975.. on Nov 20 at 4:03 PM

Apple pokes fun at Microsoft's Vista woes in its latest advertisements... again
Microsoft rolls along with SP1 updates

While Apple is using its latest round of TV commercials to further push the butcher knife into Windows Vista -- specifically, Microsoft's decision to extend the sales of Windows XP and allow users to downgrade Vista to Windows XP -- the boys in Redmond are hard at work on the first service pack for the operating system.

Microsoft released the Service Pack 1 (SP1) beta to a select group of testers in late September. The update cured many of the ailments that afflicted Windows Vista since its retail release on January 30.

"Improvements were also noticeable in resuming from Hibernation or Sleep on both my desktop PC and laptop running SP1," remarked Microsoft's Brandon LeBlanc in September. "I discovered copying files from one directory to another is a bit faster. And on my laptop - battery life seems to be improved since running SP1. I have also noticed that transferring files to my shares on my Windows Home Server are a bit faster than they were previously without SP1. Overall performance in accessing my mapped network shares is improved as well."

Yesterday, Microsoft released a new Release Candidate (RC) build (6001-17042-071107-1618) of SP1 to testers. The latest build weighs in at 434.84MB for the x86 version and 734.3MB for the x64 version.

Testers who already have the previous SP1 beta installed, however, will run into somewhat of a roadblock when it comes to the new RC build.

"Windows Vista SP1 does not support build-to-build upgrades," states Microsoft. "Therefore, if you have installed a previously release build on your machine, you have to uninstall this old build before installing the next build of Windows Vista SP1."

Windows Vista SP1 RC is currently available for download from the Microsoft Connect website for current SP1 testers.

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Those Commercials...
By clovell on 11/15/2007 2:41:00 PM , Rating: 5
If Apple has good products, why do they keep making commercials that put down on PCs?

RE: Those Commercials...
By Souka on 11/15/2007 2:49:13 PM , Rating: 5
penis envy perhaps?

But that's not what this thread is about....

RE: Those Commercials...
By Master Kenobi on 11/15/2007 6:12:07 PM , Rating: 5
I think Microsoft should sue the shit out of Apple for those commercials. False Advertising. Plain and Simple.

RE: Those Commercials...
By FITCamaro on 11/15/2007 6:49:25 PM , Rating: 3

RE: Those Commercials...
By Nightskyre on 11/16/2007 8:38:06 AM , Rating: 3

RE: Those Commercials...
By TomZ on 11/16/2007 8:54:29 AM , Rating: 2
DT already have a rating system. :o)

RE: Those Commercials...
By leexgx on 11/16/2007 10:06:21 AM , Rating: 5
not every one knows how to make an second account

RE: Those Commercials...
By DeepBlue1975 on 11/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Those Commercials...
By afkrotch on 11/17/2007 11:31:50 AM , Rating: 5
Of course. Cause, who doesn't like having hardware that's locked down into one company, so they can be screwed on prices?

I mean, thought we all loved that. I mean, I hate having the ability to easily go 1 block down the road to pick up parts for my computer. I'd much rather drive 40 miles to the nearest medium sized city to find an Apple Store.

RE: Those Commercials...
By DeepBlue1975 on 11/20/2007 4:03:53 PM , Rating: 2
If Macs were less expensive some years ago, they would have been more widespread and they wouldn't have needed to ditch their own hardware (I liked mac's hardware till the G3, after that, PC offerings started to look much better to me).

People who bought macs all the time didn't worry about themselves being locked to just the expensive MacWorld for everything they wanted for their machines.

I never had a Mac because I didn't wanna get locked up, but I liked very early solutions very much.
Technology that doesn't make it through time is not always because it's bad technology, sometimes it simply isn't the moment or there are cost issues (I remember DEC's Alpha chips, IBM's MCA architecture on their early PCs instead of the ISA bus, and things like that)

RE: Those Commercials...
By Muirgheasa on 11/16/2007 9:30:49 AM , Rating: 2
What exactly is false? I don't think they actually say anything which is factually incorrect; it's all just slagging, basically. I really don't think Microsoft would get very far in a lawsuit alleging that their computers don't crash, anyway. Do you?

Everyone on here just hates Apple...

...plain and simple.

RE: Those Commercials...
By TomZ on 11/16/2007 9:57:14 AM , Rating: 5
I can't speak for everyone, but I personally don't dislike Apple - but I really don't like their arrogant marketing. It is a real turn-off for me, strong enough that it makes we want to never buy an Apple product. Apple thinks they are superior to everyone else, and in my opinion, that's just ugly.

RE: Those Commercials...
By clovell on 11/16/2007 11:29:15 AM , Rating: 1
That's about how I feel as well. Only thing I'd add is that the Apple faithful generally rub me the wrong way.

RE: Those Commercials...
By Muirgheasa on 11/16/2007 11:40:22 AM , Rating: 2
Well, fair enough, I may have exaggerated a little, and they may be annoying (to some people). But it still isn't false advertising, in fairness to them.

RE: Those Commercials...
By afkrotch on 11/17/2007 11:49:53 AM , Rating: 2
So the fact that the advertising always shows the PC as nothing more than a workhorse isn't....false?

How about the commercial where the Mac and PC are holding hands, then Japanese digital camera comes along and holds Mac's hand. Showing that Mac easily supports the camera, while PC doesn't without drivers. Ya...pretty false. Last I checked, Mac hardly supports any hardware.

Course every single one of those ads is false. Why is the PC always a guy in a suit? PC = personal computer. Doesn't that kind of negate the whole corporate work image?

RE: Those Commercials...
By hinchesk on 11/17/2007 8:12:20 AM , Rating: 2
Everyone on here just hates Apple...

You're getting that too eh... good lord man.

Worse than a religious war, not much sense bringing in logic I guess. Can you imagine how these threads would be going if Leopard needed 2Gb RAM or 10-11 months for 1st major update?

I've never owned a Mac, lots of PC's over the years and I've had just about enough of the nonsense, i.e. huge h/w upgrade for every OS upgrade, defragging HD's, cleaning registries, AV scans and resident programs, spyware/malware scans, mysterious setting disappearances, etc.

Time to buy a Mac I think and if I need to do some gaming I'll boot(camp) into XP. Too bad Apple can't let go of the reigns long enough to build a headless Mac desktop with some upgradability. Damn billionaires.

RE: Those Commercials...
By Rockjock51 on 11/20/2007 3:26:19 AM , Rating: 2
"i.e. huge h/w upgrade for every OS upgrade, defragging HD's, cleaning registries, AV scans and resident programs, spyware/malware scans, mysterious setting disappearances, etc."

And boot camping into XP is going to solve all that? Still the same OS.

RE: Those Commercials...
By 16nm on 11/19/2007 10:39:25 AM , Rating: 1
I think Microsoft should sue the shit out of Apple for those commercials. False Advertising. Plain and Simple.

I seriously doubt Microsoft would want a very public case with end-user testimonies defending Apple's side. Even though we all KNOW that Apple is not really any better, this could be very damaging to Microsoft. Apple knows this. Microsoft knows this. The commercials will continue. At least they are good for a laugh.

RE: Those Commercials...
By gochichi on 11/19/2007 9:31:44 PM , Rating: 1
How could you possibly "KNOW that Apple is not really any better" when in fact, Apple is better in many important areas. It's undeniable that Vista unsuccessfully tried to emulate Mac OS X Tiger. How can you even debate that point?

You damn Windows zealots, stop calling reasonable people with logical reasons, proof, practical experiences... zealots. Open your freaking eyes to the reality.

Long long ago, there was UNIX. Microsoft was "inspired by UNIX" and created DOS which was worlds cheaper than UNIX. UNIX of course was better and still is. Talk about coming up with a good frame work... UNIX's frame work is still the best available even today.

Xerox came up with something amazing. Apple started to copy it and perfect it and make it feasible right away. Then Microsoft started copying Apple... which was OK since Apple copied Xerox. Apple, like Microsoft had spaggetti code up to OS 9. Apple being a company about to loose it's ass, it ditched its past and built upon UNIX and used it's GUI expertise to build Mac OS X. Had Apple not built upon UNIX, then perhaps Mac OS X would be just as bad as Vista... but this isn't the case. Mac OS X is basically the best, closed source version of Linux with widespread support. Except it's UNIX.

Seriously, Microsoft zealots are just pissing me off these days. Your blind support just allows for crappy products. I would love it if instead of your blind loyalty, you too were asking for someone to step in and build something open (not necessarily open source, just not as closed as Mac OS X) that could actually be on par with OS X if not better. It's more that possible, why can't we stop being OK with buggy mediocrity from Microsoft when it stands as one of the richest companies in the world? They could be and should be setting the pace, and not Apple. But as much as I want them to, they simply are not. Open your eyes.

RE: Those Commercials...
By kristof007 on 11/17/2007 8:32:48 PM , Rating: 3
God sometimes I wish I could hack DT and mod some stuff to 6 myself! I am in tears from laughing so hard!

RE: Those Commercials...
By Vile2600 on 11/15/2007 2:54:11 PM , Rating: 5
They do it because it's out of sheer desperation and because it's the best they can do. Apple knows that their Operating System will never even come close to the populairty of Windows, so the best shot they have is to make lame commercials that downplay the competition.

Perhaps microsoft should stoop to their level and release commercials about all the bugs and lockups that Leopard had prior to Apple just releasing the recent updates.

RE: Those Commercials...
By calyth on 11/15/2007 4:52:07 PM , Rating: 2
Actually their software isn't particularly popular because they want lock-in to their hardware.
I'll bet if they let OSX to be installed on PCs, there would be at least a good bunch of people who would try it out on PC hardware.

RE: Those Commercials...
By hadifa on 11/15/2007 5:20:47 PM , Rating: 3
It is not as simple as allowing, if they want to release it so people can install it on their systems, they need to make sure that it works with the majority of the available hardware and hardware manufacturers are going to support it. Extremely difficult to pull off.

RE: Those Commercials...
By Calin on 11/16/2007 4:29:44 AM , Rating: 3
With almost full support to Windows, Microsoft's software is not working perfectly on every hardware out there (this is a device driver problem and most of the time not Microsoft's fault - anyway, without support from device manufacturers, Apple won't have working drivers for most of the devices on market.

RE: Those Commercials...
By ZaethDekar on 11/15/2007 2:57:33 PM , Rating: 5
Because its true. Now if you had a PC guy sitting there playing a game.... the mac guy would be sad.

If they showed the PC guy talking with a friend and then the mac guy was talking to a friend. Then the mac guy would hand something to his friend as he is walking away the file would burst into flames and be gone. While the PC guys are laughing handing files back and forth sharing information.

Its all a matter of the battle they choose. Everyone knows the windows has viruses and memory leaks and blue screens.... but thats is becuase of how large of a user base uses windows. Apple will have issues as well once the user base grows.

RE: Those Commercials...
By Calin on 11/16/2007 4:31:42 AM , Rating: 2
This (files bursting in flames) would be an ad for the Microsoft's managed life for documents/emails/...

RE: Those Commercials...
By bhieb on 11/16/2007 9:16:19 AM , Rating: 3
Actually you are all wrong here. They do it because of the 50 or so posts on right here. I agree it is a little low for such a so called "sophisticated" company, but marketing is marketing and what ever gets consumers talking is good.

microsoft should fight back
By bryanW1995 on 11/15/2007 3:09:16 PM , Rating: 5
microsoft should hire the same actors for their own commercial. they could have the pc guy playing crysis multiplayer online while the apple guy played solitaire ... with himself.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By clovell on 11/15/2007 3:14:07 PM , Rating: 5
> while the apple guy played solitaire ... with himself.

That made me laugh.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By Mitch101 on 11/15/2007 4:20:12 PM , Rating: 4
Have you seen these? Includes the Linux community too.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By mfed3 on 11/16/2007 3:16:30 AM , Rating: 3
jesus, talk about poor taste in comedy. not funny. at all. any of them. i couldnt watch more than 5 seconds without cringing and shutting it off.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By Squibby on 11/15/2007 3:21:12 PM , Rating: 5
Microsoft probably couldn't get away with it. Apple is the underdog in the OS market, so they have the social leeway to be mean or make fun of their competitors. Microsoft, however, has the image as the giant company that picks on all the little guys, so if they made a similar ad, it would not be looked upon the same way as the Apple ads. It would be seen as Microsoft just being a bully, especially since most of the Apple ads are based on exaggeration and untruths, which Microsoft again can't participate in without a lot more scrutiny.
It's exactly the same reason the Microsoft has to stay out of the OLPC thing, since anything they try to do to help will be viewed as them being ultra competitive instead of trying to help.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By blackbrrd on 11/15/2007 3:35:41 PM , Rating: 3
It would be funny though :)

RE: microsoft should fight back
By GoodBytes on 11/15/2007 3:47:09 PM , Rating: 2
A good way to fight back would be to actually make commercial.
Since Vista released, I only saw (I'm in Canada) 1 so-so ad pass only once on TV, and that was like several months ago.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By GoodBytes on 11/15/2007 3:48:37 PM , Rating: 2
like they did with WinXP

RE: microsoft should fight back
By Schadenfroh on 11/15/2007 4:04:34 PM , Rating: 2
They are usually embedded in PC maker's advertisements.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By just4U on 11/15/2007 8:13:22 PM , Rating: 2
I am in Canada to.. and while I only catch maybe 8hrs or so of television a week, I do see atleast 1-2 Vista comercials... Strange that you dont.

Anyway, I like the mac comercials. They are always good for a quick chuckle. Yep they poke fun at the PC but so what. We all use them so it's kinda like a inside joke that I doubt is really ever taken seriously.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By mfed3 on 11/16/2007 3:19:31 AM , Rating: 2
no need to, bundled with every consumer pc on the market. unless ur a moron and pick ubuntu from for the same price or $50 less than vista home premium with office.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By onereddog on 11/15/2007 4:26:21 PM , Rating: 3
I dare that in reality those actors would have been required to sign a contract saying that they wont be in an add which is competitive to this one.

RE: microsoft should fight back
By FITCamaro on 11/15/2007 6:47:48 PM , Rating: 5
I'd love a commercial where the PC guy shoots the Mac guy and buries him near an apple tree.

Vista Death Watch Article
By mondo1234 on 11/15/2007 7:19:20 PM , Rating: 1
RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By TomZ on 11/15/2007 9:29:44 PM , Rating: 2
Sadly, Dvorak is slowly turning into an idiot. :o(

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By stmok on 11/15/2007 10:37:52 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, Dvorak is a clueless senile dinosaur when it comes to technology.

He knows how to start controversy in order to generate ad dollars for his employers. They love him for it. That's why they keep him around.

Check his history of articles, and you'll notice a pattern.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By Christopher1 on 11/16/2007 1:43:22 AM , Rating: 1
Actually, he has some good points. Not about the 'Vista is going to die' thing, but about the "Vista is overpriced" and "Vista is missing some promised features" things that he brought up.

I don't think that Vista is going to die. Once everything is upgraded or people trade in their computers (once every 5 years is the norm for all but enthusiast users), Vista will be the only thing out there.

People need to stop griping about the little flaws in Vista, and realize that all in all.... it's a pretty good operating system, which I am using to type this posting.

I've had very few problems with it, outside of problems that are now fixed, like the slow file transfer problem and the 'graphics reset' problem that Intel fixed.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SavagePotato on 11/15/2007 9:50:39 PM , Rating: 1
Should have called it the Vista fud romp, not the Vista death watch. See nothing more than a biased and personal dislike of the operating system being sold as fact.

I say this guy should take his own advice and start using a Mac or better yet a linux system. It is a great place for him. In the meantime I and the other 90 million Vista users will be continuing to wonder what kind of child abuse leads someone to take such a hate on for a corporate entity to spout such nonsense.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By retrospooty on 11/15/2007 10:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know about that... I read his article and if you ask me, he is just stating what many people are feeling and experiencing. There are alot of people unhappy with Vista and what was delivered. Even MS did extend the sales of Windows XP and allow users to downgrade Vista to Windows XP for free. I think that was a pretty good move by MS. Too many people are pissed off. I do realize many people use Vista and it runs great for them, but many have issues as well. Remember, not all people use PC's the same, and not all hardware and drivers are created equal so one system may be great while another is a mess.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SavagePotato on 11/15/2007 10:28:22 PM , Rating: 1
There are 90 million people that seem to be using Vista just fine.

Some people have had a bad experience with the program for whatever reason. Maybe they tried to do an upgrade and it didn't work out so well on an older computer. Maybe they simply couldn't handle the changes from XP.

Asking someone to believe that Vista is somehow going to get canceled and replaced, because a handfull of users had unusual problems or hardware conflicts is a big leap.

If you buy a brand new pc that is preloaded with Vista it is going to work, simple as that. It is going to be tested, installed properly, and have working drivers. If it doesn't then you should realy be getting upset with the company that made that computer and sold it to you as tested and working. If you've built your own PC and can't manage to get Vista working you have only yourself to blame for not being able to get it working, or for not doing your homework on hardware compatibility.

Some facts about the downgrade to XP option that people seem to omit, or simply not know, is that it pertains only to Vista buisness and Vista Ultimate. Joe home user that just bought a machine with home premium on it does not have a free downgrade to XP coming from Microsoft.

Something learned from personal experience based on a recent I hate Vista laptop purchaser wanting the free downgrade. As a side note after having a discussion with the woman on why she hated Vista and wanted XP back, it was over a windows 95 era game not working, (which wouldn't work in XP either) and the way the defrag utility worked. That was all, after the discussion was over she realised she realised she was over reacting and picked the system back up.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By retrospooty on 11/15/2007 10:41:43 PM , Rating: 2
"There are 90 million people that seem to be using Vista just fine."

There are 90 million Vista licenses sold, mostly through high vol manufactures like Dell and HP. There are not necessarily 90 million people using it yet, and those that are using it are certainly not all happy with it.

I am not trying to get into a heavy debate about it here, just pointing out that even though most users are running fine, there are still a great deal of people with problems, and it isn't ALL user error, or apps built for Win95. There are some real issues, and alot of people are legitimately pissed off, thats all I am saying.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SavagePotato on 11/15/2007 10:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
Thats just reality. I would say to those waiting for a perfect OS from Microsoft, you are waiting for something that is never going to happen.

Having to support the amount of hardware Windows does is always going to be messy. Personaly I think they do a pretty good job considering. You show me the version of Windows that was perfect and free of any problems at launch, and I'll pay for your new Mac.

Very short memories, thats all I have to say. XP was barbaric at launch compared to Vista, and it was less of an evolutionary step by far than Vista aimed for. Have a little bit of patience and wait for the inevitable remaining issues to be dealt with. I think personaly that it's great Microsoft is getting on a service pack this quickly to address those issues, instead of leveraging it as some sign that somethings horribly wrong beyond comprehension.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By retrospooty on 11/15/2007 11:26:39 PM , Rating: 3
"Have a little bit of patience and wait for the inevitable remaining issues to be dealt with."

That, I am doing. Like XP, it will stabilize as time goes by.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By Procurion on 11/16/2007 9:31:57 AM , Rating: 2
Not true. The majority of prebuilts being sold with Vista are barely equipped to run it with all the bells and whistles. THAT is why people get upset. They buy a brand new computer and find out that they have to run it at "low" settings. Blame most of it on the lame-sorry-incompetent excuses for on-board graphics solutions that Intel tries to force onto every board.

There is really nothing major wrong with Vista. Microsoft just did what most game creators do by releasing an OS that was ahead of the "standard" offered in prebuilt systems. It works for games but the reality is that most people don't have aggressive machines.

The industry as a whole also needs to get a grip on themselves and remember that there are many areas that people need to spend hundreds of dollars frequently just to keep up with technology. Most households cannot support that rate of spending because they don't have that kind of disposable income. That creates the backlash and latent hostiity from the consumer base-frustration and a never-ending money pit.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SavagePotato on 11/16/2007 9:59:05 AM , Rating: 2
So explain to me what part of that is the fault of Vista? Someone sells you a computer that you feel is underequipped, and your first thought is to pin the blame on the maker of the OS?

It's not beyond current systems at all, I've used it on plenty of lower end systems, and you simply don't need to be running Vista on a system with 512 megs of ram.

The other day one of our network administrators ordered a new computer for his brother, he got a machine with an 8500gt in it preloaded with Vista and ready to go for $700. Honestly, why is there any reason to go out and spend $499 for an emachine with a single core celeron and 512 megs of ram and then blame vista because you feel the system is slow?

The fact of the matter is, video cards are getting cheap, very cheap. Right now I can spec systems with an x1650 pro on them for a cost of about $60 for the card. Thats it, $60 and you have a rebranded x1800 which blows away an onboard video solution. Is that and maybe $20 more for a 1 gig stick instead of a 512 going to break the bank and scar someone for life?

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By leexgx on 11/16/2007 10:13:09 AM , Rating: 2
price between 512mb and 1gb, is like less then £5/$10, there is No need to sell pcs with 512mb ram + vista + 64mb shared ram (448mb for OS use) the system will go mega slow when you load up anti virus or load up an program

vista for smooth ish running 1gb ram, 2gb should be what you aim for when getting an pc (and an dual core cpu)

min spec pcs can run XP fine

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By Chudilo on 11/16/2007 10:21:05 AM , Rating: 2
The part that everyone is blaming Vista for is the fact that both Linux and Mac OS do not have these huge hardware requirements and yet offer more eye candy on a lesser equipped machine.

For example, the big obvious change in Vista is the 3d accelerated window manager. Well Linux with Compiz or Beryl do a better job without being inconvenient. All the extra pretty graphics actually make the system faster (if you have any sort of a 3d accelerator) in other words a now dated NVidia 6800 will get you running leaps and bounds faster then Vista.

Check out some videos on YouTube of "Ubuntu with Beryl" if that can't make you see that there might be something to it after all, then you are blind.

Well obviously there are more changes to vista then just the eye candy. and that the stuff that doesn't work. Linux has always been more secure and stable the Windows by definition. That that's a given. Yes Microsoft decided to push their .net technology into Vista. and that's where they probably got burned. .NET is still pretty immature. There are lots of things still wrong with it. They though they would be ok, but it turned out that they shot themselves in the foot. And that's the reason for all the criticism.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SavagePotato on 11/17/2007 12:00:33 AM , Rating: 2
I've personaly tested beryl to see what it is about, I think it looks cheesy tacky and cheap. Aero on the other hand doesn't blaringly stand out like stupid wiggling jello windows when you drag them around.

Seriously the way people talk you would think a bloody 8800gtx was neccesary for aero. Stop beleiving the fud, it is not that intensive to run at all.

When you show me that OSX and Ubuntu support the same hardware base and application base as Vista, then maybe that statement might have some creedence.

Linux is never ever going to be a mainstream consumer OS despite how much fans want it to happen it simply isn't, ever, end of story, period.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SirKronan on 11/18/2007 7:47:34 PM , Rating: 2
The part that everyone is blaming Vista for is the fact that both Linux and Mac OS do not have these huge hardware requirements and yet offer more eye candy on a lesser equipped machine.

How can you say that? Maybe Linux demands less for the money, but OSX? I am a big fan of my MacBook, but when I payed $1200 for it and it came with 512mb ram, it's performance for price ratio with Tiger was lackluster, to say the least. If I ran several programs at a time my "pretty" interface would slow down substantially. I've since invested $120 in upgrading it to 2GB of RAM and the performance is a LOT better, for obvious reasons. I've also recently upgraded to Leopard, which still runs nice and fast, after a few timely patches provided by Apple.

Here's my problem with your comment. To get my machine running the interface smoothly, especially multitasking, I had to buy a $1200 machine and upgrade the RAM for another $120. Obviously a notebook is going to be more expensive, but to get comparable performance on a Mac with Tiger or Leopard you're still going to pay around a grand. That's ONE THOUSAND dollars for the most basic Mac with a monitor. Shortly after I bought my Macbook I built a system for a friend for about $1000. It has a nice AMD dual core processor, 2GB ram, 320GB hard drive, inexpensive 7600GT video card, AND a 20" Widescreen monitor. It runs Vista Home Premium just fine with bells and whistles, multitasking, etc. When people come in to buy a desktop with Vista, they want to spend $500 for the whole outfit with a monitor. Then they come back in later and complain that Vista runs slow... Same problem with Vista laptops. Customers want to spend $600 on their laptops. The CHEAPEST Mac laptop starts at over $1000, so the hardware had better be superior to the $500 Vista laptop. People who spend a grand or more on a Vista desktop or even laptop now are going to get 2GB of RAM and the faster processors necessary to run Vista without any hiccups.

Point is, you really get what you pay for. Linux might give you more bells and whistles and customizability for your dollar, but lacks the broad support and peripheral compatibility of Windows. I'm not a "fanboy" of either, I just want to see people making fair comparisons, and yours was not.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By Procurion on 11/16/2007 10:45:28 AM , Rating: 1
In a way you are right, but in another you are wrong. The ads that attract most people to buying a new computer don't give information that's necessary. You are right, Vista isn't to blame and I never said that it is all Vistas' fault.

Discreet graphics are an arcane science to 95% of the world. Calling people stupid or idiots because they don't understand or know how to build a computer is a non-starter, and we've seen a lot of that on the boards in posts. People don't need, nor want, to know how to repair an automobile in order to drive it. A pilot does not need to be an A&P mechanic to fly his airplane. And so on...

That is my point. Your response by talking about how your friend ordered a computer for his brother is exactly what I mean. You have to admit that his brother did not know how to set up or order a computer. Whether it is "right" or "wrong" is beside the point.

If you want to spend the rest of your life traveling the world, enlightening people about computers, have at it, lol. The phone calls from my parents and friends are enough for me. In my hour of drive time home I spend most of it solving their current computer-related issues. THAT is my point, do you see? 99% of the consumers don't want to be a geek-they have us! The person goes out and buys a new computer and expects it to work, expects just that. If it doesn't, for whatever reason, work the way they were lead to believe it would, they become upset.

Vista through some inefficiencies and undocumented shortcomings(memory) caused enough moms and pops to bitch. It is a technology issue and consumers don't need or want to be IT specialists to push the power button.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By SavagePotato on 11/17/2007 12:11:25 AM , Rating: 1
Back the truck up a few steps there and maybe you can show me the quote where I said people are stupid idiots. I would realy love for you to show me where i used that word.

If you are building your own computer, you better know what you are doing or go home, simple as that. Thats what package systems are for. If you are buying a package system do your homework or ask someone knowledgeable for help, again end of story.

What does it have to do wether the fellow from works brother is computer savy or not? I don't see any relevence whatsoever to that. He ordered his brother an out of the box, non customized completely factory system for $700, and it works fabulously. He doesn't need to be an airplane mechanic as you say either to use it, because yes, guess what Vista is every bit as easy if not easier than Xp to use. Honestly I don't get where this "have to be a rocket scientist" stance comes from.

Casual users have no idea whatsoever what the memory space inneficiency is, the people that do are gamers who have had games crash running out of memory (example stalker). This issue was addressed long ago via hotfix, therefore it is a non issue. The reason people bitch, and trust me I've personaly listened to them bitch, is because they don't want to get around the learning curve of a new OS, and trust me it is as minimal a learning curve there could be.

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By hinchesk on 11/17/2007 8:26:32 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know about that... I read his article and if you ask me, he is just stating what many people are feeling and experiencing. There are alot of people unhappy with Vista and what was delivered. Even MS did extend the sales of Windows XP and allow users to downgrade Vista to Windows XP for free...

Agreed, the question I have what does Vista give over XP to justify the cost (other than a prettier GUI)?

RE: Vista Death Watch Article
By retrospooty on 11/18/2007 10:08:28 AM , Rating: 2
They say it is much more secure, but in all my years dealing with older versions of Windows (and most recently XP) on friends and family's PC's I have never seen any security threats. I suppose if I were dealing with some sort of top secret stuff I would like that, but for me its just not worth it to me either

By mankopi on 11/15/2007 9:27:10 PM , Rating: 3
I dont know why people rant about how horrible Vista is. I recently upgraded to Vista ultimate 64bit and I love every part of It. To me it is WAY better than XP. There are times I think all these people who complain about Vista may not have even tried it.

By SavagePotato on 11/15/2007 9:55:30 PM , Rating: 2
Thats because most of them havent. It's a case of drinking the kool aid and believing the fud, then adding some more fud to it.

Ever do one of those pass the information experiments in gradeschool? They used to do those all the time for fun in my days. You know where you form a circle and one person whispers a simple phrase in the next persons ear, then you wait till it gets to the other end of the circle and see how out to lunch it became.

That in a nutshell describes most anti Vista ranting. Something gets exagerated and twisted a hundred times over and pretty soon people are beleiving their own lies.

By ChronoReverse on 11/15/2007 10:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
At this point here (a year later) the support for Vista 64 is significantly better. I've moved to a dual-boot setup with Vista 64 recently and haven't found a reason I needed to go to a 32bit system so far. And even if I did, there's a good chance I could just use VPC2007.

By SavagePotato on 11/15/2007 10:33:30 PM , Rating: 2
I used Vista 64 at launch and drivers were poor, that should be qualified to Nvidia drivers were poor. Overall the performance of Vista 64 at launch had quite a few unacceptable hitches that 32 bit did not have.

Having switched back to 64 to support 4 gigs of ram, and used it for the last 6 months, I can honestly say from experience that 64 performs 100% as well as 32 bit for me at this point. The only problem left at this point is application compatibility. For me a non issue with any applications I've used.

By gochichi on 11/19/2007 9:45:58 PM , Rating: 2
I own Vista Ultimate 64-bit ... I installed it on a brand new 500GB hard drive leaving my Windows XP installation intact. I've only booted up Win XP a handful of times, and generally strongly prefer Windows Vista.

That having been said. I tried Vista. I also tried a MacBook Pro... and Macs truly are better than PCs. I purchased and returned two Vista laptops before purchasing the MacBook Pro.

Based on the fact that Mac OS X has WAY more "eye candy"... it's really not candy... it's very useful stuff, especially on a portable, and it doesn't tax the system. I'll tell you right now, Vista is junk, and it's not the amount of eye candy. The level of eye candy is so slim on Vista.

I run Ubuntu on my old PC, and it too has more eye candy... and I just can't believe how much peppier it is to Vista on my new PC. An older 512MB Athlon XP appears faster as far as the interface than my new dual-core 2GB machine... that's screwed up. Quit assuming that Vista nay-saying is based on ignorance. It's generally not. 100% Mac users would never comment on Vista, as a matter of fact they'd never be on a website like this.

Public or Closed Testing?
By Assimilator87 on 11/15/2007 2:46:22 PM , Rating: 2
Is this new build available to the public or do I have to be a Microsoft beta tester?

RE: Public or Closed Testing?
By Brandon Hill on 11/15/2007 2:47:39 PM , Rating: 2

RE: Public or Closed Testing?
By Master Kenobi on 11/15/2007 3:29:59 PM , Rating: 1
Isn't on my beta list either.... Must be very closed.

RE: Public or Closed Testing?
By Brandon Hill on 11/15/2007 3:33:41 PM , Rating: 2
If I login to Microsoft Connect, it shows up for me under the Windows Beta listing.

Then again, I'm already signed up as an SP1 tester.

RE: Public or Closed Testing?
By mixpix on 11/15/2007 3:57:12 PM , Rating: 1
If it's closed WHY is there a link to Microsoft Connect to download it... It should state that only current beta testers can download, anyone signing up will just see a list of... nothing interesting.

beta testing
By Shawn on 11/16/2007 2:59:24 AM , Rating: 2
How does one go about getting selected for such beta testing?

RE: beta testing
By crystal clear on 11/16/2007 4:46:47 AM , Rating: 2
Contact your local or regional M.S. office depends where you are located.

Express your interest in doing such beta testing also give them your backgrounds/skills/etc.(they have to know who you are & what your capable of)

Your request will be forwarded to M.S. headquaters via their internal communication links.

That way you have a chance to get involved,provided you meet all their criteriors/terms & conditions/qualifying requirements etc.

RE: beta testing
By crystal clear on 11/16/2007 9:32:31 AM , Rating: 2
I refer to the small group of testers-

A Beta release of Windows Vista SP1 is slated for availability in the next few weeks. A small group of testers has been putting a preview of the SP1 Beta through its paces to help prepare for broader release. We made the choice to start with a very small group of testers because we think it’s better for both our customers and for Microsoft to keep the beta program small at the start.

A later pre-release of SP1 will be available to a larger group of testers via MSDN and TechNet subscribers.

RE: beta testing
By TomZ on 11/16/2007 8:56:47 AM , Rating: 2
I believe you can sign up here:

I'm a longtime Microsoft beta tester, so I'm not completely sure how to get started these days, but from what I can tell, signing up on the Connect web site is the first step.

Microsoft: " Give Windows Vista Another Chance"
By crystal clear on 11/16/2007 6:09:04 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft: Give Windows Vista Another Chance

That's the message from Microsoft !!!!

In an interview with CMP Channel, Mike Nash, corporate vice president of Windows Product Management, said

So it's time for organizations that have stayed with Windows XP to take another look at upgrading.
That's the message from Microsoft, which is in the midst of a pre-holiday full court press to dispel what it feels are misconceptions about Vista that have sprung up since the operating system's release in January, and which have caused many businesses to remain in a Windows XP holding pattern.

My response-I think M.S. should be speaking a lot to companies to get their opinions on Vista before they can dispel those misconceptions.

By giving interviews/advets etc is not the right way.

Here are some examples-

Still, some solution providers simply don't see enough of a business case to warrant recommending Vista to their business customers. Dan Hogan, vice president and COO at DSR, an Elkridge Md.-based solution provider and Microsoft partner, says the combination of technical uncertainties and the cost of migrating an entire organization to Vista is keeping customers on the sidelines.

"Most of my customers are staying on XP Professional, and I think businesses are going to hold off as long as they can until the word is out there that Vista is fixed and running smoothly," Hogan said.

My response-

Note :

until the word is out there that Vista is fixed and running smoothly,

" the combination of technical uncertainties and the cost of migrating


But despite the rosy picture being painted by Microsoft, some channel partners say the OS is still as unpredictable as a bucking bronco when it comes to porting applications from XP to Vista.

"The biggest problem is that I can't install Vista on a client's network that has any pre-existing software without the risk of needing to spend 4 or 5 hours working on it," said Jay Tipton, vice president at Technology Specialists, a Fort Wayne, Ind.-based solution provider.

"For business owners, it just doesn't make sense to pay someone to sit there and debug. Someone is going to have to pay for the time needed to make it work, that's what it boils down to," added Tipton.

My response-

Someone is going to have to pay for the time needed to make it work, that's what it boils down to,"

M.S. should take these hints seriously !

RE: Microsoft: " Give Windows Vista Another Chance"
By TomZ on 11/16/2007 8:11:14 AM , Rating: 2
I certainly understand the views you're echoing here, however, I think there is also a problem with expectations as well. It's important to keep in mind that Vista is a major OS update, and along with any major update, there are going to be HW driver and application compatibility issues to work through. This has been true of every major Windows release up until now, and I'm a bit puzzled as to why people expect Vista to be any different.

Vista does a really good job with compatibility overall, but Microsoft doesn't have a magic wand that can make all the engineering tradeoffs just simply vanish. Some OS changes are going to affect existing code, and in some cases it is better to spoil old code so that the OS can move forward, for features that are important in the OS.

By crystal clear on 11/16/2007 9:02:33 AM , Rating: 2
Imagine yourself as CEO of a major organization discussing this issue of switching over to Vista with your IT manager & staff.

You are taking certain calculated risks-to take that fateful decision.

You are scared inside that this move could backfire,even though you dont show it-So what do you do ?

You tend to play it safe.

But if you had M.S. assisting you in the actual switch over to Vista,with their qualifed manpower guiding you till the end & training your staff at the same time.
M.S absorbs a portion of the Cost elements involved

You will feel more confident to take the decision to switch.

You are ultimately responsible for the success or failure-so you prefer to wait it out or delay it.

Not that simple/easy being a CEO

By crystal clear on 11/16/2007 9:47:53 AM , Rating: 2
A repost of an earlier comment of mine-

RE: Waiting on the first SP...
By crystal clear on 9/29/07, Rating: 2
By crystal clear on 9/29/2007 6:47:58 AM , Rating: 2

May be this could help you-

Microsoft has announced the Windows Vista Application Compatibility Factory.

ACF is a cooperative venture between Microsoft and "services partners" such as Satyam Computer Services, Tata Consultancy Services, and Wipro Technologies. ACF will consist of an assessment of the current applications with a "high-level" scan for compatibility problems. Then, a few pilot applications will be tested for compatibility followed by broader testing and remediation. Once all the bugs are squashed, Vista will be rolled out to all the desktops and laptops in the company

The 3 companies mentioned are India based & good reputations.


The cost involved in getting these companies do the jobs should be split between M.S. & the buyer (here me the company)

Take A Joke
By T4RTER S4UCE on 11/15/2007 5:17:28 PM , Rating: 1
I look around and it seems that practically everyone here hates the Mac commercials. I'll admit they're often incorrect and hypocritical. But you've got to admit they're pretty funny. So calm down, and take a joke.

RE: Take A Joke
By darkpaw on 11/15/2007 5:57:15 PM , Rating: 3
I hate Apple and think those commercials are full of steaming crap, but yah some of them have been pretty funny.

RE: Take A Joke
By mondo1234 on 11/15/2007 6:09:17 PM , Rating: 1
That is funny. Didn't Microsoft make one of their commercials on a Mac?

RE: Take A Joke
By retrospooty on 11/15/2007 10:02:04 PM , Rating: 2
I had heard that before, but its not really relevant. The entire business community runs on PC's and Widows, and of course so do the contract manufacturing facilities that make Macs... every single one of them. all the parts, logistics, day to day ops, management ets... Every single aspect of manufacturing Macs uses PC's.

By Shlong on 11/15/2007 4:02:39 PM , Rating: 2
Hopefully they fixed the Wireless Lag Issue... Searching for Access Point every Minute or so. In counter-strike or any online game I would get a lag spike lasting 4-5 seconds (ping jumping from 20 to 500) every minute. In Windows XP I could disable Wireless Zero Configuration to get around this, but in Vista if you disabled WLAN you couldn't use wireless period. This & the super slow speeds at copying files is why I don't use Vista full time.

RE: Wireless
By Squibby on 11/15/2007 4:06:35 PM , Rating: 2
The file copy bug was fixed. I can't remember if it was a hotfix or if it was pushed out to everyone, but it should stop you from using Vista anymore.

RE: Wireless
By AlphaVirus on 11/16/2007 9:31:23 AM , Rating: 2
In counter-strike or any online game I would get a lag spike lasting 4-5 seconds (ping jumping from 20 to 500) every minute.

You game with wireless?

It's Popular
By rupaniii on 11/16/2007 11:27:40 AM , Rating: 2
Apple has risen to success by riding popularity itself.
PDA's never really took off. Hence, Newton a failure.
MP3 Players were hugely popular.
Apple said, OK.
Lets redesign that. It's a Digital Music Player.
OK. We will release a great one, with ease of use.
We will however tie it to our own service that only we use.
Then, we will strive to make that service the best.
For better or worse, iTunes is a digital media crossroads like no other.

So, Making fun of things is popular. Humor is popular.
You can either yell at things that frustrate you or make fun of them.
Windows frustrates people.
Vista INFURIATES people.
Apple, always has seen Windows as something that frustrates them.
BINGO, It's popular to make fun of Windows.
But, we'll call him PC. We don't sell a competitor to Windows. We sell a competing HARDWARE PLATFORM with proprietary Software, though, it is based on freeware BSD.
So, we will make fun of the PC Platform.
SmartPhones frustrate people. They have 'features' no one uses. At least, well, Windows ones. They are slow and Clunky. It would be great to make the best phone in the POPULAR SmartPhone category. Oh,and, we'll need our own service for that. Yup, we have to control it to deliver it.
The problem with those is the speed and code. Ok, we'll make the slickest mose functional smartphone in history.
DONE, it's called the iPhone. It'll really work when the 4G or WiMaxx version hits.
Now, it seems to me that Internet Service is Popular... you think the 700mhz band auction is Google learning from Steve Jobs?

RE: It's Popular
By maven81 on 11/16/2007 1:26:06 PM , Rating: 2
Sure making fun of things is popular, but...
The problem with the apple ads isn't always what they say, it's what they imply...

For instance by saying that PCs crash, you're implying that somehow macs don't have that problem. Yet anyone with any serious experience with macs will tell you that's not true.
By saying that PCs are good at "business stuff" they are implying that it's the ONLY thing PCs are good for, which is nonsense... I'm a designer and I use macs at work and PCs at home.
When Vista came out apple got really scared... a lot of what they were touting as serious windows issues were alleviated. Windows is more secure, "pretty", and feature rich. So the claws came out...
What's really ironic about the newer vista ads though, is that Leopard was late... Leopard users are reverting to tiger, and even with the latest bug fix release many people are disappointed with it. Apple doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Apple commercials are way off...
By thedudeabides on 11/16/2007 1:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
For some odd reason Apple keeps forgeting why they suck so bad and I can't figure it out. Maybe they know this which is why they had to offset thier losses by developing Ipods and Iphones and using more funds for thier marketing scams then R&D.

Regardless, PCs are much more versitale than Apples when it comes to applications. Take for example gaming; Can you play Crysis or Call of Duty 4 on an Apple? And why doesnt Apple ever show a PC gamer and an Apple person in those me an Apple running sli with dual 8800 GTX ultras...

Show me in the commercial-- the guy that built his own PC, who uses Vista, who can run over 50 background programs while transering files and gaming all at the same time...who also surfs, who skydives, snowboards in Alaska, parties with the hottest girls in south is good, my PC is good.

I own a brown suit. What's your point Apple? I am a PC nerd and proud of it.

By hinchesk on 11/17/2007 8:41:18 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed PC's are better for gaming and upgradeability but that doesn't make PC's better overall.

PC: upgradeability, gaming, market share
Mac: stability, consistency/integration,, security, interface, multiuser support, innovation, versatility (run MacOS or Windows)

Arguably, the count is PC 3, Apple 7 so far. Market share doesn't make the PC a better product... just makes more people defend it... as with a religion... the number of people believing isn't evidence of it's truth.

Those commercials...
By indyJ on 11/16/2007 12:43:58 PM , Rating: 2
Long story short...some of the commercials are funny, but give false exaggerated information. Most biz competition does exactly the same. The 80's Coke Pepsi Challenge is a good example. Pepsi was touting how around 80% of people preferred Pepsi over Coke. What they didn't admit until years later was they did like Pepsi in the initial swallow, but the majority preferred Coke when having to drink a half soda or more.

On the topic of Vista flaws and performance....First, I have to admit I work in the industry(sales). The biggest reason I see why people have problems is their inability to get what is necessary to run Vista. I would infatically tell people that if they don't get atleast X amount of ram or X graphics card for their needs they would have a horrible experience and still they would refuse. The obvious results were bad and they would blame the system. These people always felt they were being upsold so I would try to lead them to independent tech webpages that confirmed what I suggested as proof and it still fell on deaf ears.

Astonishingly, from experience(from family and friends) these same people would research for months on what car, stereo surround system or big screen tv they would want to get and slack off when they get a computer. I do not feel you need a geek to help. Maybe an adviser yes and a small(small) amount of research into what you want and need would solve most problems. It is no bigger purchase than a big screen tv purchase and should be treated the same way. I would ask people, "do you buy a Kia Sephia to pull you boat to the lake?". Ofcourse not.

Lastly, I purchased a new notebook last April with Vista Home Premium(2.0g core2, 2gigs ram & nvidia256 ram). I download music, do office work, play some 3D rts games and play movies from online on my system. I even play some games from 1998 on it and they loaded and played without skipping a beat. I haven't had a single problem with Vista. I know some problems exist and that is expected. As others have posted their are tons of companies they have to support.

By hinchesk on 11/17/2007 7:54:41 AM , Rating: 2
With bajillions of users dependent on backward compatibility MS has been limited on the depth of Windows changes they've been able to make over the years.

If they'd be able to dump their legacy code and start over on some UNIX derivative base with better security/multiuser support/stability and finally get to where they've been trying to go in terms of GUI design they'd be... well they'd be Apple.

Looking forward to SP1
By gochichi on 11/19/2007 9:11:56 PM , Rating: 2
I hope they add something in the way of "candy" with Service Pack 1. I need some Expose killing, Spaces emulating version of Vista... b/c right now the performance hit is just not worth it for a little bit of translucent windows.

Seriously, look at Beryl/Compiz... Microsoft desperately needs to come out with some options.

In terms of the Apple ads, there is absolutely no grounds for Microsoft to sue Apple. That's a hilarious reaction. What's not hilarious, is that they are filled with truth, people really get upset about them and start (or continue?) "hating Apple".

In any case, I think Apple should stop these ads. I personally enjoy them, and think they're quite funny and effective. But there's got to be a better way for Apple to reach out to people. For instance, they could release a regular desktop.

If no manufacturer has "retaliated" to Apple with an ad, it's because they simply don't make something that's better, let alone better enough to be able to mock Apple. You wouldn't see a Ford Focus competing with a BMW 3 series would you?

One last point in that. Why does Apple focus on "PC" if it's products are so good? Because there are still millions of people that haven't realized how much better, how much of a leader Apple is... and how much of a clone, how much of a follower Microsoft is.

Anyhow, most of us aren't "PC users" nor "Mac users", we use what we want to or need to use. Just like you very well may have different brands of cars in your household. You're not going to buy a BMW for every car are you? BMW doesn't even make a pickup truck... so if you need a pickup truck you do what? Use an X5 b/c you can only use one brand.

That having been said, Vista SP1 is something I'm very much looking forward to. I think Microsoft could be and should be making a better product. This isn't about Apple, it's about Microsoft being up to no good.

The loyal Mac user is a thing of the past. As soon as other companies start making great products at a better price I'll stop buying Apple's products. As I see things now, there's no other company that even makes laptops in my mind. IBM used to make laptops that were on par with Apple, but the Lenovo takeover has those laptops looking kind of remedial now. Sony makes cosmetically appealing, overpriced junk. If you require a laptop with a decent screen... where the f**k else do you turn to? Not HP, not Sony, perhaps Lenovo?? Dell,... really? Dell? With all these laptop manufactures how is it that nobody can make a better product than Apple?

It's not just mediocre Vista that makes PCs inferior, it's all of the mediocre brands that build PCs too. They can't even give a brand new computer that's free of junk ware??? They can't even give you disks to re-install the OS with... instead they just take up 10GB of your hard drive with a disk image and that's it. You would think throwing a couple of DVDs would not be a big deal even for the cheapest laptop sold.

So is Apple in a position to gloat a little bit? Yes. Get over it. BMWs are better than Fords... get over it.

Looking forward to Vista SP1, because I think it's important for Microsoft to have a better product, and because I expected a better product when I purchased Vista Ultimate. If you think that because I am aware of the reality that Apple is running a better business right now than the PC industry... that this somehow makes me a zealot, you're wrong. I want Microsoft to make a kick ass product. I want a great laptop for $700.00 ... that would be nice.

Microsoft really dropped the ball with Vista, if they hadn't why are so many of us complaining? And it's 2007 going on 2008, it's really not too much to ask for a modern window manager and multiple desktops.

"We are going to continue to work with them to make sure they understand the reality of the Internet.  A lot of these people don't have Ph.Ds, and they don't have a degree in computer science." -- RIM co-CEO Michael Lazaridis
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