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Blu-ray Disc Association claims foul-play over HD DVD attach rate data

Although Sony Corp.’s CEO Howard Stringer is calling the current high-definition format war as mostly a matter of prestige, heads of each respective side are still vehemently on the offensive.

The European HD DVD Promotional Group has revealed figures gathered by independent research firm GfK that show stronger software-to-hardware attach ratio compared to Blu-ray Disc. According to the data reported by Pocket-lint, European HD DVD player owners have already bought an average of 3.8 movies each, compared to 0.6 movies sold per Blu-ray player.

The findings also included a breakdown of attach rate according to country, each showing a positive attach rate in favor of HD DVD:
  • Spain: HD DVD owners have bought an average of 5.7 movies each (14 times the Blu-ray figure of 0.4 per player).
  • Italy: HD DVD owners have bought an average of 4.4 movies each (11 times the Blu-ray figure of 0.4 per player).
  • France: HD DVD owners have bought an average of 5 movies each (over 8 times the Blu-ray figure of 0.6 per player).
  • Benelux: HD DVD owners have bought an average of 2.9 movies each (over 7 times the 0.4 movies bought by Blu-ray owners)
  • Germany: HD DVD owners have bought an average of 2.9 movies each (which is over 4 times the 0.6 movies bought by Blu-ray owners)
  • UK: HD DVD owners have bought an average of 3.7 movies each (which is over 4 times the 0.8 movies bought by Blu-ray owners)
The release of such news has caught the ire of Blu-Ray Disc Association's European Chariman Frank Simonis. Speaking to Tech.co.uk Simonis called the HD DVD Promotional Group’s release a “gross misrepresentation of data.”

“The figures have been severely massaged and that is something you should just not do ... Honest to God, the Blu-ray Disc Association would never do this,” said Simonis. “We've seen so much rubbish come from the HD DVD Group it's unbelievable. When we supply numbers like this, we will always provide access to our source data so that reporters are able to double check the numbers.”

Simonis brings up the point that the HD DVD Promotional Group now includes PlayStation 3 sales in its calculations – something it did not do when announcing hardware sales numbers – skewing the software-to-hardware ratio downwards for Blu-ray Disc. The Blu-ray Disc association claims to have the larger hardware market share when including the PlayStation 3.

“Until now, they have refused to accept that the PS3 is a Blu-ray player because it made their numbers look better. But now it suits them they have included the PS3, which is funny in a way,” Simonis added. “Before the PS3 launched worldwide, BD movies were outselling HD DVD ones by 2-to-1 and now the PS3 is around, BD outsells HD DVD by 3-to1.”


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Errrr yea
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/15/2007 8:31:10 AM , Rating: 2
The picture is nice, very nice. Exactly what this whole thing is, a cat fight. On a side note its funny that Sony is now bitching they are including the PS3 when Sony has been doing it forever. Their whole claim to fame was that the PS3 counts and its the cheapest player on the market. Sounds like theyre just bitching because HD DVD decided to use Sony's own metrics and then bank on the attach ratio which has always been dismal.




RE: Errrr yea
By jajig on 11/15/2007 8:38:35 AM , Rating: 5
Sony is saying that HD-DVD doesn't count PS3 when talking about hardware sales, but does count it when working out attach ratio.

quote:
Simonis brings up the point that the HD DVD Promotional Group now includes PlayStation 3 sales in its calculations – something it did not do when announcing hardware sales numbers – skewing the software-to-hardware ratio downwards for Blu-ray Disc.


At least thats how I read it.


RE: Errrr yea
By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 8:48:59 AM , Rating: 4
And thats exactly my point. Sony counts PS3 for player sales, but does not want it to count it with attach rate. The HD-DVD camp is using Sony's Numbers that were released to the public, nothing more than simple division here. Only reason I side with HD-DVD here is that they never included non-standalones, where Sony did, inflating their BD hardware 4 or 5 fold what it should have been.


RE: Errrr yea
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/15/2007 8:53:09 AM , Rating: 5
Indeed, I would have to say that Sony is bitching that HD DVD is actually counting the PS3 and that makes them look worse. Rather compare Apples and Oranges, the HD DVD camp decided it could still give Sony a black eye by comparing Apples to Apples. This is Sony wanting their cake and eating it too.


RE: Errrr yea
By jajig on 11/15/2007 8:58:44 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe I'm just an idiot and reading it all wrong but the way I see it Sony wants HD-DVD to count the PS3 as a Bluray player.

quote:
Simonis did, however, welcome the HD DVD camp's decision to include the PS3 as a BD player, and said he hoped that they would continue to do so in the future. He also said that despite the HD DVD Promotion Group's claims, the Blu-ray Disc format is, in actual fact, consistently outselling HD DVD.


RE: Errrr yea
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/15/2007 9:11:44 AM , Rating: 2
They are counting it, thats why Sony is all pissy. They weren't before and Sony complained, now they are and Sony is still complaining. Sony is just complaining to complain.


RE: Errrr yea
By Carl B on 11/15/2007 9:37:28 AM , Rating: 2
They're complaining because HD DVD constantly cherry-picks what data they want to use. It's telling that the only time they have included PS3 in with BD players is this instance in which they wanted to highlight attach rates. Why would they even care to highlight that stat, I have no idea... but they did so all the same.

I'm sure if next time it goes to installed player stats, the HD PRG includes the PS3, Sony's complaints will die down; but if they are again excluded from the numbers, I would imagine it would be clear what the problem is in terms of apples-to-apples reporting.

Either way, I think it's perfectly fair for Sony to highlight "forget attach rates, BD is outselling HD over 2:1." Certainly that's a stat that ultimately matters more anyway.


RE: Errrr yea
By PurdueRy on 11/15/2007 9:43:43 AM , Rating: 2
It doesn't matter until it becomes a larger margin of the market. Keep in mind that HDDVD was outselling BR until Feb of this year. In terms of a new format, that isn't exactly a long time. Especially because prices are just now beginning to sway consumers to put their money into the war.

I am confident of neither format's victory. However, the current numbers mean very little. Until we see what your average Joe is buying at his local big box store...then the future format winner will be more clear.


RE: Errrr yea
By Carl B on 11/15/07, Rating: 0
RE: Errrr yea
By PurdueRy on 11/15/2007 9:58:42 AM , Rating: 2
I am interested to see this weeks sales. Last week we had big BR releases. This week is pretty lackluster in terms of releases standing out on either format(ocean's 13 is the big one and that's on both formats). We'll get to see the effect of the clearance of the HD-A2's and see what, if anything, that has done to the numebers.

I do think that if Toshiba doesn't restore the below $200 pricepoint for the A3 for the xmas buying season, they will be shooting themselves in the foot.


RE: Errrr yea
By ChristopherO on 11/15/2007 1:14:47 PM , Rating: 2
See this site: http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/weekly/thisw...

In its first week, Transformers sold 3 times as many copies as Spiderman 3 (all media including the HD releases).

Last week's sales are going to be huge for Blu, not necessarily because of the releases. If you check Amazon, they've been running a buy-one-get-one (BOGO). I don't know the start and end days, but the Blu Ray camp seems to do this when they need their numbers to look good.

For example, they ran a huge BOGO the week Transformers was going to be released because they didn't want HD DVD to outsell them. Despite the huge sale, the sales ratio was only 51:49 in Blu's favor. Transformers was *that* huge.

Frankly I don't know why anyone cares. All these marketing shills could just go home and the format war would probably unfold in the exact same way. The only benefit is that we wouldn't have to listen to their manure.


RE: Errrr yea
By michal1980 on 11/15/2007 3:02:21 PM , Rating: 2
and yet when the dust settled Spidermand 3 on Blu-ray sold more in week 1 then transfomers did.

and the week after transformers was released on hd-dvd. Blu-ray outsold hd-dvd 71:29.

And if blu-ray is running a gimick in having a buy one get one sale. Then what was toshiba doing when they were selling the A2 player for 99 dollars? (a whole 100 bucks below wholesale costs). That wasn't a gimick?


RE: Errrr yea
By ChristopherO on 11/15/2007 3:30:45 PM , Rating: 3
I couldn't care less who wins. Frankly, I don't think either side will. I'm fine with that, because I'm not an imbecile who is cheering for some other guy to lose his several thousand dollar investment in a "dead" format. And that's exactly what every single fanboy is... Some twit cheering for some other guy to lose money. What decent person does that?

That's also why I ordered a Samsung universal player. I'll order whatever movies I want, and I don't need to care what color the packaging is.

Skewing software sales with a BOGO is fine, but it's evil if they attempt to close-out a discontinued player? The week after Transformers was a BOGO. This week is a BOGO. Frankly, if I were a lame fanboy I'd say something snarky like, "Gee, Blu must be desperate to be giving away so much crap for free!" Both sides say garbage like that and it makes me ill.

Also, there is no evidence that the A2 was sold below manufacturing costs or wholesale. There have been a bunch of liars (aka fanboys) on various sites spouting completely misleading facts without source. These are the same people that stated with certainty WB was going HD exclusive, and Blu exclusive on the same day. No one on either side has a clue.

Frankly I don't trust anyone's figures. The fans are foaming at the mouth like crazed political donors, and the manufacturers are releasing "creative" statistics to suit whatever purpose they need to push any given week.

Seriously, just enjoy the movies and be glad that you can buy them.


RE: Errrr yea
By michal1980 on 11/15/2007 7:00:17 PM , Rating: 1
i live in a state where stores are not allowed to sell items below cost.

walmart could not sell the a2 for below about 189 dollars.


RE: Errrr yea
By ChristopherO on 11/15/2007 7:47:30 PM , Rating: 2
All this proves is that you shouldn't live in Wisconsin since your state government likes tampering with the free market. In the end you get hosed because you have to pay a lot more money for old technology than the rest of the United States.

The sale price in your state says nothing about the manufacturing cost or wholesale cost of the player. Additionally, it doesn't take into account concepts like "VMI" where vendors give a back-end rebate to retailers for selling their products.

In other words, just because your state may have not sold the player for $100, that absolutely no correlation with current manufacturing costs, current wholesale cost, etc. Only the price the retailer paid at the time they acquired the inventory (but not that inventory's current value).

Stop whining about what the other side does to sell their hardware and learn to enjoy your own. Just because hundreds of thousands of other people didn't select your format doesn't make them wrong.


RE: Errrr yea
By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 8:09:12 PM , Rating: 2
Talk about an anti Walmart law...


RE: Errrr yea
By michal1980 on 11/15/2007 9:57:38 PM , Rating: 1
wait.if we are claiming that the ps3 is blu-ray hardware. Then blu-ray has sold MILLIONS of players compared to the petty few hundred thosand that hd-dvd has?

now whos looking to play with the numbers to make themselves feel better about their format?


RE: Errrr yea
By dl429 on 11/15/2007 4:54:21 PM , Rating: 2
Three of the most valid points in the entire thread any you get voted down... There is not even an attempt to be unbiased concerning next gen dvd on daily tech.


RE: Errrr yea
By mcnabney on 11/15/2007 10:58:08 PM , Rating: 2
Ahh, Transformers was an HD release. Not Blu.

Do you know what you are talking about?


RE: Errrr yea
By PurdueRy on 11/16/2007 9:18:44 AM , Rating: 2
Spiderman 3 was last week...not Transformers...so yes I know what I am talking about. Do you?


RE: Errrr yea
By Locutus465 on 11/15/2007 3:01:24 PM , Rating: 2
Shrek the third HD-DVD exclusive... I've ordered on my self (which is coming late, ups jerks).


RE: Errrr yea
By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 1:55:28 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
HD DVD constantly cherry-picks what data they want to use.
How is HD-DVD cherry picking any data? Their numbers are quite simple, standalone players sold divided by HD-DVD movies sold. Meanwhile Sony wants to count PS3's in player sales, yet when it comes to attach rate the rules change. HD-DVD group is using sony's 'cherry picked' data to discredit Sony, and are not picking the data that makes them look better, as sony was the one that wanted to count the PS3 as a unit, not HDDVD group.
quote:
Either way, I think it's perfectly fair for Sony to highlight "forget attach rates, BD is outselling HD over 2:1." Certainly that's a stat that ultimately matters more anyway.
You obviously missed the point. PS3's should NOT count as player sales because of the fact PS3's have a very low attach rate. HD-DVD group is just playing Sony's PR game, no more, no less.

Why forget attach rates? Ultimately, if over 50%(with the remaining owners having an average of 1 movie) of ps3 users don't even own an BD movie, then how will this effect the High Def market going forward? The answer; It won't, the ps3 attach rate proves that the success of the next high def format will be pegged on Standalone sales, and movie sales not game console sales.


RE: Errrr yea
By FITCamaro on 11/15/2007 2:38:23 PM , Rating: 2
They want them to count it, unless it makes them look bad.


RE: Errrr yea
By nogames on 11/15/2007 9:18:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Rather compare Apples and Oranges, the HD DVD camp decided it could still give Sony a black eye by comparing Apples to Apples.


How can I use a ratio number, like building and selling one player ond the selling 100 disc's. This would give me a ratio 100:1. Total sales are for more usefull. So it still says BD outsells HD-DVD 3:1. These numbers impress salespeople and equals revenue


RE: Errrr yea
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/15/2007 9:34:21 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
These numbers impress salespeople and equals revenue

Guess you never really worked retail before. Attach rate is EVERYTHING. So you sold them this 15k high priced bitchin TV. Your margin? Nothing. Selling attachments to "improve the value" of that big purchase? That's where it's at.


RE: Errrr yea
By djc208 on 11/15/2007 11:03:26 AM , Rating: 2
Especially with respect to video/game/music players. Wal-Mart didn't make anything on the $98 HD-DVD players and even at $198 they're not breaking the bank in profits. It's the $60 copy of Planet Earth or the $30 HDMI cable I bought with it they win on. So if I'm more likely to buy 6 movies than the guy with the BD player it works out better for the retailer.

Of course the easy response for the BD camp is that with each PS3 the retailer gets game sales on top of whatever movie sales the owners might make. A fact that is naturally missing in these figures.


RE: Errrr yea
By Strunf on 11/16/2007 11:00:35 AM , Rating: 1
hmm and you will sell your attachment to whom if no one bought your high priced bitchin TV?...

The fact is that its far easier for a retailer to sell its attachments once it has sold its 15k high priced TV than try to make people buy more attachments without having sold many TVs.


RE: Errrr yea
By jajig on 11/15/2007 8:55:37 AM , Rating: 2
Sony is complaining about the lack of consistency on the part of HD-DVD in regards to player sales and the lack of checkable figures.

The linked article has more details on what Sony said.


RE: Errrr yea
By deeznuts on 11/15/2007 3:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And thats exactly my point. Sony counts PS3 for player sales, but does not want it to count it with attach rate.
Where does it say that? They complained about the HD DVD camp flip flopping. Show me one statement or statistic by Sony, giving BD attach rates and not using the PS3.

HD DVD is excluding the PS3 when it suits them, then including it when it suits them. That is what Sony is complaining about. Show me one statistic, as you say, where Sony wants the PS3 excluded from attach rates.

I think Sony's stance is, we won't even use the attach rate, let's look at overall media sales, which is what studios, of which Sony is, looks at.


RE: Errrr yea
By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 4:15:23 PM , Rating: 2
How is HD-DVD flip flopping? They are just being very clever and playing the game sony created. Sony made the claim they had sold more BD players, they also claimed they have sold more movies. So what does the HD-DVD camp do? They use the exact numbers Sony has boasted about in the past, and turned it into a totally reasonable stat, if the ps3 should 'really' be included in sales.

So lets recap, Sony claims they have the lead in software and hardware sales and they release their numbers. Yet when a simple calculation of Attach rate is done, Sony calls foul play.

So really HD-DVD group is just giving Sony an ultimatum, either the PS3 counts, or it doesn't. Perfectly reasonable in my books.

Sony's numbers manipulate the truth, not HD-DVD groups.
Sony has chosen to included the ps3 in their sales, when it is not justified at all. Up until this point HD-DVD has always claimed the PS3 should not count, well now they are playing hardball.


RE: Errrr yea
By Strunf on 11/16/2007 10:45:36 AM , Rating: 2
lol you can't be more biased than that...
The HD-DVD group doesn't count the PS3 on HD hardware sales but counts it on the attach sales, that is manipulating the numbers.

Reasonable stat? for who ? maybe for the marketing group folks cause the consumer couldn't care less about it, what matters for the consumer is the total players available (which means more support from the movie industry), total movies sold (which means more support from hardware industry)... had the BD camp sold billions of players they would be completely screwed up on your "reasonable stat", had the HD-DVD camp only sold a single HD-DVD player and 10 HD-DVD movies they would beat anything on earth and maybe even beat the DVD attach stat.


RE: Errrr yea
By nogames on 11/16/2007 4:23:41 AM , Rating: 2
What I am missing in these numbers is the number of HD-DVD drives sold for the XBOX 360. This number should be included as well in the number of sold HD-DVD units.

Guess we never get true figures for any of this. I mainly bought my PS3 for gaming, but now I also buy blu-ray movies (6 so-far within the last 9 months), just for info

I do not plan to buy HD-DVD movies or a combo-player as long the HD-DVD movies cost $10 extra comparing to blu-ray here in Denmark


Yeah, so....
By soulbabel on 11/15/2007 8:56:47 AM , Rating: 2
I own like 30 Bluray movies, and the PS3 is actually my roommates, so what kind of attach rate is that when I don't even own a bluray player? Just kidding, I don't really care.




RE: Yeah, so....
By mcnabney on 11/15/2007 11:06:15 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. You spend over $500 on the sparse BD titles available now? I couldn't find 20 in the current lineup that I would pay more than $10 for, much less $25-30.


RE: Yeah, so....
By soulbabel on 11/16/2007 1:28:14 AM , Rating: 2
Well then your obviously not an HD-DVD supporter, because their lineup is even worse.


RE: Yeah, so....
By Locutus465 on 11/16/2007 12:15:23 PM , Rating: 2
Or perhaps the current selection of BD movies doesn't appeal to them... I participate in a couple of these forums and I see posters talk about how much they love the movie selection on their fav format and how the other format doesn't have anything to offer (or instance one BD person was saying HD-DVD has absolutly nothing... when I asked about that it turns out they don't like the matrix, shrek, bourn or a host of other hd-exlusive movies)... Some times it just works that way...

My tastes are such that I like exlusives of both camps, but it just so happens hd-dvd is the only camp I can afford to join.


Sony what?
By mdogs444 on 11/15/2007 8:42:51 AM , Rating: 1
So lets see, Sony basically wants to manipulate the figures in their own defense.

For one, Sony WANTS the PS3 counted as a BD player because then it will increase the total number of BD players sold, and better the ratio of BD to HD players sold in the market.

But then, Sony DOES NOT WANT the PS3 counted in the attachment rates because it would decrease their numbers.

Sorry Sony, but you have to pick one way over the other. And if you are going to claim the figures that the HD camp released are false, then go ahead and release your own figures to be debunked.




RE: Sony what?
By jajig on 11/15/2007 8:51:06 AM , Rating: 2
You should read the linked article

quote:
"Until now, they have refused to accept that the PS3 is a Blu-ray player because it made their numbers look better. But now it suits them they have included the PS3, which is funny in a way."

Simonis did, however, welcome the HD DVD camp's decision to include the PS3 as a BD player, and said he hoped that they would continue to do so in the future. He also said that despite the HD DVD Promotion Group's claims, the Blu-ray Disc format is, in actual fact, consistently outselling HD DVD.


Sony is complaining about HD-DVD doing what you're accusing Sony of doing. Sony are telling HD-DVD to pick one or the other.


RE: Sony what?
By Zandros on 11/15/2007 8:58:07 AM , Rating: 4
Nice spin. While I agree that Sony should include the PS3 in their attach rate statistics, and I will believe they do until proven otherwise, the article is about the HD DVD camp doing the exact thing you are accusing Sony for, AND they are accusing the HD DVD group for releasing unsourced statements. Congratulations yet again.

So, if it is unacceptable for Sony, how can you argue that the same thing is acceptable for the HD DVD group, and if you don't think so, why only attack Sony?


Blu-Ray is dead
By bigboxes on 11/16/2007 10:04:22 AM , Rating: 2
It's only a matter of time. It's all about getting it (the format) to the masses. Crazier things have happened, but I think this game has already been won. My condolences to those that have paid mucho $$ on the losing format.




RE: Blu-Ray is dead
By PurdueRy on 11/16/2007 10:14:17 AM , Rating: 2
I think your crazy...and I own a HDDVD player.

The war is no where near over. Blu-ray is CERTAINLY not dead. I have no idea where you get off saying this considering that the HD-A3 is selling over $200 everywhere you look now, so no more "the price is so low people will buy it" thing. Blu-ray has so far still outsold HDDVD(we still have yet to see the impact the clearance of A2's will have on future HD media sales charts however).

What information makes you confident HDDVD will win? Currently I am saying its deadlocked just as Sony's CEO said. Neither side is showing signs of taking the market completely.


RE: Blu-Ray is dead
By bigboxes on 11/16/2007 11:01:43 PM , Rating: 2
I like you bro, but don't shoot the messenger. To me it looks inevitable. Even the Sony CEO sounds resigned to that fact.


ohhhhh..
By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 8:32:27 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
The figures have been severely massaged and that is something you should just not do ...
Oh.. you mean like counting ps3's in BD sales? It sounds like the HD-DVD camp is just playing on Sony's 'messaged' numbers, not the other way around. I can tell you one thing though, Sony's attach rate seems right. 5 million ps3's, 3 million BD movies sold, thats 60% attach rate right there. Whether or not HD-DVD numbers are correct is a different matter, but they do without a doubt have a higher attach rate.




RE: ohhhhh..
By xfrgtr on 11/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: ohhhhh..
By omnicronx on 11/16/2007 9:45:28 AM , Rating: 1
Desperate? The war has barely begun, things are still hunky dory on both sides as both camps still think they will become the winner.


What it sounds like sony is saying
By SavagePotato on 11/15/2007 9:39:55 AM , Rating: 2
What it sounds like Sony is saying from their complaint is that they have taken skewed data and skewed it further.

Ie, taking the diminished blu-ray sales from dis-including the ps3, and then making up a per player ratio that does include the ps3 using the already false numbers to make it seem even worse.

Personaly based on the creative stats from the HD-DVD group in the past I would be inclined to agree with Sony's assessment.




RE: What it sounds like sony is saying
By goodstuff on 11/15/2007 10:26:05 AM , Rating: 2
Since HD-DVD does not count PS3's when they tout their "hardware" sales superiority, they shouldn't count it for attach rates. In that case Blu-Ray standalone players would destroy HD-DVD in attach rate, considering Blu-Ray discs sales are twice as much as HD-DVD.


By BansheeX on 11/15/2007 9:35:19 PM , Rating: 1
I agree. They can not have it both ways. That is pure distortion of the facts and I'm glad Sony is getting more vocal in this war.


By Locutus465 on 11/15/2007 10:29:43 AM , Rating: 3
"We're going to put out way more PS3 out there vs. SA HD-DVD players so we'll sell more software! YAY! Remember kids, your PS3 is a BD player!"...

Sales data is realeased...

"WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? YOU'RE COUNTING THE PS3 AS A BD PLAYER YOU DIRTY BASTARDS!!"




Why don't we solve this with some simple Math
By arrowspark on 11/15/2007 11:24:43 AM , Rating: 1
Problem: Many people buy PS3, but no one knows who buys it mainly for Blu-Ray

If we assume that Owners of Standalone Bluray Players are Similar to standalone HD-DVD player owners it would be reasonable to assume that that the attachment rate for STANDALONE BD PLAYERS is the same as for standalone HD_DVD players.
HD_DW = # of HD_DVD Standalone Players (Known Value)
HD_Attach = HD-DVD Standalone attachment rate (Known Value)
BD_Attach = Bluray Standalone attachment rate
PS3_Attach = PS3 attachment rate
BD_HW = # of Bluray Standalone Players (Known Value)
BD_PS3 = # of PS3 owners who primarily use the PS3 as a BD Player
BD_HW_SWSales = Total Number of Bluray Movie sales
attributes to Bluray standalone players.
BD_PS3_SWSales = Total number of Bluray Movie sales
attributed to PS3
BD_SWSales = Total Bluray Movie Sales (Known Value)

So:
assume BD_Attach == HD_Attach;
BD_HW_SWSAles = BD_HW * HD_Attach;
BD_PS3_SWSales = BD_SWSales - BD_HW_SWSales;

Scenario 1:
Assume PS3 users who use the PS3 primarily as a Bluray Player make up the Bulk of BD_PS3_SWSales so we assume that HD_Attach == BD_Attach == PS3_Attach

BD_PS3 = BD_PS3_SWSales / HD_Attach.

if(HD_HW > (BD_PS3 + BD_HW))
{
HD-DVD is winning;
}
else
{
Blu-ray is winning
}




By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 2:27:50 PM , Rating: 2
Sure they do.. PS3 SALES (5 mill)/ BD MOVIES SOLD(3 mill) = 0.6 movies per ps3. Now you can take into account how many standalone BD owners bought movies, and you would have to think that would lower the ps3 attach rate considerably.
My guess(its probably less), Sony maybe has an attach rate of 0.5 BD movies per ps3.

So on average, half of ps3 users use their BD player in the first place, with that number also being inflated because you know there are many people who bought more than one movie.


statistics
By Gul Westfale on 11/15/2007 9:01:33 AM , Rating: 2
statistics can and are often manipulated, misinterpreted, and misrepresented. it's an easy way to try to sway someone's opinion in one camp's favour.

as far as i'm concerned they can quote stats until they're all blue in the face; i am still going to wait for an affordable bluray/HD DVD combo burner for my PC.




By wempa on 11/15/2007 12:47:16 PM , Rating: 2
The only way to determine the real attach rates is to eliminate the PS3 owners who have no clue about Blu-Ray or don't care about Blu-Ray. This would obviously have to be estimated. On a different note, both sides will throw around any statistics that make their side look better.




Same thing, different decade
By Procurion on 11/16/2007 9:05:07 AM , Rating: 2
Spin-spin-spin. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. As I pointed out weeks ago, standalones and games are different animals. Sony wants to lump them together until it's time to compare the attach rates.




Silly useless stat
By rktek on 11/16/2007 10:25:49 AM , Rating: 2
The attachement rate stat is useless in this case whether you count PS3 units or not. PS3s are either bought for gaming only, for playing BR movies as a primary reason, or somewhere in between.
I think the HDDVD camp is grasping here to use this stat the way they did.




Tickets please
By BansheeX on 11/15/2007 12:43:02 PM , Rating: 1
Fight back blonde-ray! Push her into the mud!




Wow People are bllind by sony hate.
By michal1980 on 11/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: Wow People are bllind by sony hate.
By michal1980 on 11/15/07, Rating: -1
By PurdueRy on 11/15/2007 12:33:22 PM , Rating: 2
Or people realize that both sides will present the facts in a way that makes them look the best. This is the case for any buisness not just this format war. Look at car ads for instance:

"More HP than any other car in its class!"

They don't define which cars are in the same class. Perhaps you would consider a Mazda CX-9 and a Ford Excursion in the same class. But maybe someone else might consider the CX-9 a crossover and not in the same class as the Excursion.

I am just making up and example but you will see this advertising everyday. BOTH companies in this format war are presenting data in a way that supports their product. They would be stupid not to.

Do you think its merely an oversight that Blu-ray lists that it has "90% of studio support" on Sony's website? Do you really think this is still true? Do you think its merely an oversight that they have not removed paramound/dreamworks from their studio support list?


By Shawn on 11/15/2007 12:08:59 PM , Rating: 1
As long as they (the HD DVD promotional group) specifically state that they have sold more stand alone players (which they do), I don't see what the problem is.


RE: Wow People are bllind by sony hate.
By omnicronx on 11/15/2007 7:51:51 PM , Rating: 1
People rate you down because you make stupid comments like 150,000 HD-DVD players sold. They sold almost 100 thousand in last weeks sale alone.

Furthermore you along with all BD lovers are missing the point. PS3's should not count as a BD player. Considering how many people got their movie for free, and that sony's attach rate for the PS3 must be lower than 0.6 if you take standalone BD player owners whom actually buy BD movies into account. HD-DVD group has tried to play the game giving real numbers without console addons. Yet people like you believe the PS3 actually sells movies.

Whats even worse is that although HD-DVD group has been doing the same offers with their standalones, Sony has been offering at least one movie with the PS3 for the past while.
And you have to know Sony counts this in its numbers.


RE: Wow People are bllind by sony hate.
By michal1980 on 11/15/2007 10:11:28 PM , Rating: 1
my posts are stupid. You post is asine then.

Fine DONT count the ps3 as blu-ray hardware.

Dont do it.

Then talk about attach rate.

If the ps3 is not blu-ray hardware. and HD-DVD hardware has outsold blu-ray hardware 2:1. While blu-ray software outsells hd-dvd software 2:1. That must mean the blu-ray Attach rate is 4x that of hd-dvd.

So pick one. does the ps3 count as hardware or not?

And if it does then theres more blu-ray hardware out their by MILLIONS of units. and with a piss poor attach rate OWNS software sales.

and if theres not. Then the blu-ray attach rate is amazing


RE: Wow People are bllind by sony hate.
By mcnabney on 11/16/2007 12:27:30 AM , Rating: 2
The issue is not black and white.

The PS3 is a product that does a fair job of doing two things: playing games and BD disks.

Some people buy it just for games and will never load a movie.
Some people buy it as a cheap BD player and will never play a game.
Most buy it as a game console, but plan to pick up one or two of the new BD releases.

But it is all a bunch of doublespeak anyway. These are mostly 1080p players. The market penetration for that kind of display probably isn't even 1% yet. I don't even think that 1080i is much over 50%. The HD media fight is still over an immature technology which won't be mainstream for at least another year. Selling a half million $100 players this holiday season might help, but it is still in the future. It just doesn't matter who is ahead now...


RE: Wow People are bllind by sony hate.
By omnicronx on 11/16/2007 9:41:23 AM , Rating: 2
I do not deny that Blueray is outselling HD-DVD in software sales. I also realize Sony would have a higher attach rate if the PS3 was not to be counted.

I was merely pointing out that the 0.6 attach rate proves most people don't use their PS3 for BD movies. And for the record.. most people don't own an HDTV, so Most people will buy a ps3 to play games, any movie that comes with it is just an added bonus.

I also agree with you that the HD media is still no where near mainstream. I also feel that when it does become mainstream and there are more standalones than PS3's, Sony is going to be begging everyone to no longer count the PS3.. mark my words..


By michal1980 on 11/16/2007 10:27:11 AM , Rating: 2
The problem alot of people are missign is that its much easier to have HIGH, in fact. HUGE attach rates when the attach rate is part of a limited number of samples.

i.e. both hd-dvd and blu-ray have very limited numbers of standalones sold. If you dont count the ps3. Both have attach rates that are between 5-10 disks a standalone.

But what happens if you sell millions of standalones? the more mass market you get the lower your attach rate gets. When you start getting down to that 99 dollar player... those people tend to be renters. Their not going to buy a 35 dollar disk... They have already proven to be budget shoppers.

I'd love to know what the yearly attach rate is for dvd sales now? about what 2-3 disks a year per player?

Toshiba has over inflated attach rates because of a limited base of standalones. Sony has a grossly tiny attach rate due to the unkown nautre of the ps3 as a player. Over time both should tend to drop/rise to similar levels as dvd's.

Both companies are taking different routes their. Blu-ray with slightly higher cost hardware... which is decreaseing in cost year over year, if not even in 6month cycles.
and using the ps3 to flood the hi-def market. (so with even terrible attach rates they can outsell software, like i pointed out before, a .6 attach ratio times 6,000,000 players, would need to be balanced out by 250,000k hd-dvd sales with a 4 attach ratio.(and there is no data that suggest even that kind of parity of software sales)).

toshiba thinks flooding the market with cheaper players will help them win.

at the end of the day right now. neither format really matters since sales are like .1% of dvd. And we could really end up with dual-format players. and media thats just hi-def, without people knowing if the disk is blu or red, and the studios picking disks on a per movie basis. Where longer movies with more features go blu. shorter movies go red.

And yes both sides spin numbers.
If sony wants to count the ps3 as blu-ray hardware, they have to live with bad attach rates.
If hd-dvd wants to say they have a better attach rate, they have to live with the fact their hardware has been outsold 10-15 fold.


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