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Honda's 2.2-liter i-CTDi diesel engine  (Source: Honda)

2008 Honda Accord EX Sedan  (Source: Honda)
Honda readies its diesel engines for passenger vehicles in the U.S.

DailyTech reported in early June that Honda's newly redesigned Accord would receive a diesel engine. Honda today confirmed that the 2009 Honda Accord would be available with an optional 2.2 liter i-CTDi 4-cylinder Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel engine.

The diesel engine is reported to produce in excess of 150 HP, while torque -- always a diesel strength -- is pegged at 260 lb-ft. The diesel will be emissions legal in all 50 states and is set to deliver real word fuel economy in excess of 40 MPG.

If the fuel economy estimates pass the Environmental Protection Agency's testing, that would make the diesel Accord more fuel efficient than the previous generation Accord Hybrid and Toyota's current Camry Hybrid.

The 2.2 liter diesel is expected to be closely followed by a new 3.5 liter V6 diesel destined for Honda's large vehicles. The engine is 30 percent more fuel efficient than the current 3.5 liter V6 gasoline engine used in the Odyssey, Pilot and Ridgeline according to the Nikkei newspaper.

In addition to the diesel news, Honda also announced that the CR-Z hybrid concept will make it to production. The small two-seater uses the same powertrain as the Civic Hybrid (4-cylinder gasoline engine, Integrated Motor Assist and CVT) and is likely to better its 40 MPG/45 MPG city/highway EPA ratings.

The CR-Z will be accompanied by a $22,000 five-seat Global Small Hybrid (GSH) which will do battle with Toyota's Prius in 2009.



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Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 2:42:49 PM , Rating: -1
Is it so hard to make a car that runs off of corn oil? Geez, Nebraska, Iowa, and Indiana have so much corn left over each harvest certainly it can be put to good use. No?




RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SeeManRun on 10/26/2007 2:47:49 PM , Rating: 2
The cost of making the corn into oil would offset the savings gained, and overall making it more economically feasible to just use oil. Also, it would drive up the cost of food. So you pay more for food, pay more for gas, but it is a tiny bit cleaner.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 3:04:56 PM , Rating: 2
Your saying it cost more to drill and remove a barrel of crude than it is to raise, harvest and transforming corn into corn oil.

Let's see -- a bushel of corn $0.55, transformation $0.35 a bushel, 83 bushel to a barrel -- total cost per barrel of corn oil $74.70.

Crude is currently over $90.00 a barrel.

In the past when crude was $60/barrel then yes your correct. But, that statement of yours is nologer true.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Chris Peredun on 10/26/2007 3:14:42 PM , Rating: 5
I can play the numbers game too.

Number of barrels of gasoline consumed in one day by America (2006) = 9,159,000

Number of bushels of corn produced in one (record) year by American farmers (2004) = 11,800,000,000

Number of barrels of ethanol that can be produced from that corn (83:1) = ~142,000,000

Number of days until all the ethanol is gone and the US has completely exhausted its domestic corn supply = 15.5


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 3:27:03 PM , Rating: 1
you can plant more corn in the short and long run. let me see you "plant" more crude in the long run.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Lord 666 on 10/26/2007 3:29:37 PM , Rating: 3
Can you plant more water? Each ethanol plant consumes 2 million gallons of water per day.

Ethanol as a "filler" makes some sense (as in the 10% in all of gasoline now) to take the edge off of gasoline use. This also applies to bio-diesel like B20. However, the idea of running E100 is not practical.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 3:36:08 PM , Rating: 2
then I take it you agree with both processes. why complicate matters with a two step process? why not just simply matters, saving the trouble of finding an alternative source once crude has been depleted?


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Lord 666 on 10/26/2007 3:45:18 PM , Rating: 3
I support more efficient means of transportation AND alternate fuels as a complete approach.

Converting the soccer mom's H2 to straight E100 makes zero sense. Dropping in a fuel efficient diesel or even hybrid-diesel into the H2 actually saves fuel resources.

Even better would be for soccer mom to trade in for a diesel CR-V that gets 40mpg.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By ThisSpaceForRent on 10/26/2007 3:40:48 PM , Rating: 2
We're also forgetting that ethanol contains less heat energy. So we would actually need more barrels of ethanol to get the same mileage. I think we need to face the facts and admit that liquid fuels are on their way out.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Chris Peredun on 10/26/2007 3:39:29 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
you can plant more corn in the short and long run. let me see you "plant" more crude in the long run.


As soon as you find the resources (manpower, land, and others) to support a twenty-five-fold increase in corn production, by all means - let me know.

(Remember, we need to feed ourselves too.)


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 5:55:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Number of days until all the ethanol is gone and the US has completely exhausted its domestic corn supply = 15.5


Whew! You scared me at first!

Not contesting the numbers you threw up, biodiesel production of corn oil is 6 time more efficient than diesel production. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/no... A barrel of crude only gives 7 gallons of diesel, whereas to fill a barrel with corn oil is a whole 42 gallons.

Furthermore, your solution of 15.5 is the number of days corn supply TO MAKE a barrel of corn oil, NOT the number of days to exhaust a corn reserve. To compound your miscalculation, 15.5 can be reduced by a factor of 6 since a barrel of corn oil is 42 gallons, not 7 gallons, like diesel. 15.5/6 = 2.6 days corn supply.

We need to increase our corn production 2.6 times to satisfy the increase biodiesel use of corn.

I like you Peredun. You made me sit on the edge of my seat.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 6:03:46 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Furthermore, your solution of 15.5 is the number of days corn supply TO MAKE a barrel of corn oil ...


***Correction***

Furthermore, your solution of 15.5 is the number of days corn supply to satisfy a days use of biodiesel corn ...

Raggedy-ass website can even institute a simple edit button.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By ziggo on 10/26/2007 6:33:35 PM , Rating: 3
He didnt quote the number of crude barrels consumed, and he wasn't talking about corn oil, or bio diesel, he was talking about ethanol.

Diesels can be made to run on tar if you know what you are doing,thus requiring much less refinement of the fuel.

What I would like to see is the amount of energy that the sun puts down onto the surface of the earth defined by some unit area, and then compare that to current energy use. Combine that with the efficiencies involved, and the acreage of farmland and voila. Thats where all this junk needs to start.

The energy source is the sun, all of our "renewable" energy solutions would require that the daily balance of energy consumed is not greater than that converted from sunlight. Should be pertty easy to weed out the viable options from there.

I think that kind of analysis is why the defense department is looking at space based energy collection.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9275

This article isn't just blowing smoke. They might be looking for proposals in the next 2 years to begin technology demonstrations. If bio-fuels were a viable energy option I believe the defense department would be investing in developing powerplants based upon using it and
better methods for its creation.

http://insidedefense.com/secure/defense_docnum.asp...


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 8:48:36 PM , Rating: 2
dude! stay with us. we have enough attention deficit people flocking (and writing) on Dailytech.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By MonkeyPaw on 10/27/2007 11:37:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
As soon as you find the resources (manpower, land, and others) to support a twenty-five-fold increase in corn production, by all means - let me know.


Yeah, and there's this thing called a "growing season" too. It's not like Iowa can grow corn in January!

quote:
(Remember, we need to feed ourselves too.)


We also feed livestock corn as well.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Aiserou on 10/26/2007 3:40:07 PM , Rating: 2
So in an effort to provide a slightly cleaner burning fuel at a cheaper price than oil, you want to clear cut vast amounts of new farmland and raise the price of corn.

Also , 15.5 days of fuel from a record year of production, that completely discounts the fact that a lot of that corn still needs to be eaten. Just how much more corn do you think we could plant. Even if we clear cut every square mile of land available and used slave labor.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Parhel on 10/26/2007 5:37:54 PM , Rating: 2
That doesn't add up. If all gasoline sold in the US is 10% ethanol, and not all corn produced in the US is used to manufacture ethanol, then how is that figure possible?

In other words, we must already be producing enough ethanol to provide for 36.5 days of fuel (10% of 365 days,) right?

Now, I don't think ethanol provides nearly the same amount of energy per barrel as gasoline, but that's another discussion.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Parhel on 10/26/2007 5:42:01 PM , Rating: 2
In hindsight, I suppose we could be importing corn and/or ethanol. Duh.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Ringold on 10/26/2007 9:19:17 PM , Rating: 2
We are. And rainforest around the globe is being slashed and burned to provide the global corn market what it wants at record prices.

How the hell is that an acceptable "green" solution?


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Parhel on 10/27/2007 12:23:35 AM , Rating: 2
No idea. I was only questioning the math behind how much ethanol we could currently produce, not whether it's a viable solution or not. However, I doubt that ethanol has raised the demand for corn that significantly. In Brazil, where they are slashing the rain forest, it's not mostly for ethanol. To my understanding, it's due to the rising meat export market in Brazil and providing feed for the livestock.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By psyph3r on 10/26/2007 3:23:06 PM , Rating: 2
crude went over 90$ for a moment the other day...and yes, it is still more expensive to make corn based fuel. It is a simple fact of how efficient a process is..and 25% going into a combustion engine is ridiculous.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By timmiser on 10/26/2007 5:00:33 PM , Rating: 2
On top of the price of crude oil is the incredibly high cost of transporting it half way around the world and the environmental risk that can and does occur.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By walk2k on 10/26/2007 5:38:32 PM , Rating: 2
Add the cost of human blood, limbs and lives lost please then come back.

Also there are better things to turn into biodiesel than corn. Soybeans and hemp for starters.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Spuke on 10/26/2007 7:11:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Soybeans and hemp for starters.
Yeah, you can use that stuff to make things like tape and speaker cones.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By walk2k on 10/26/2007 8:00:41 PM , Rating: 2
The original diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By SunAngel on 10/26/2007 8:30:50 PM , Rating: 1
"Analysts agreed with the study’s conclusion that biodiesel compares favorably with ethanol from an environmental standpoint. “Biodiesel is much cleaner-burning fuel and much less harmful to the environment,” Daniel W. Basse, president of AgResource in Chicago, an economic forecasting firm, said Wednesday.

But Mr. Basse said ethanol production is far more efficient, with some 420 gallons of ethanol produced per acre of corn versus only 60 gallons of biodiesel per acre of soybeans. If biodiesel use ever increased greatly, Mr. Basse said, the cost of soybean oil would rise significantly."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/business/13ethan...


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Ringold on 10/26/2007 9:27:54 PM , Rating: 2
I almost raised an eyebrow at the theoretical suggestion that soybean prices would rise, then noted you found an ancient (in terms of this industry) article.

Food prices have already gone wild, and we've just barely started using ethanol. Americans and Western Europe can absorb this in the form of inflation, but middle income nations such as Mexico have already had riots and low income developing, or, ahem, "transitional" economies could be devastated if they're food importers.

I firmly believe that the humanitarian aspect, that being massive global inflation and considerable human suffering from doubling, tripling and quadrupling food prices, is an even more convincing case against using crops for fuel. What's more important to environmentalists; allowing a hungry family in Mexico to have a full dinner of their cultures traditional foods or saving a little CO2?

IMHO, this mad drive to ethanol is primarily driven by the agribiz lobby and given the nod to by the likes of Greenpeace because, hey, a little human suffering is a good thing, we deserve it, apparently.

There is far more promising technology in the works, not even refering to cellulose, if only the farm lobby can be held at bay and fanatical "greens" can stop bloody hyperventilating can spoiled children.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Ringold on 10/26/2007 9:59:07 PM , Rating: 2
"can" in the last sentence = like

Also:
http://www.thefinancials.com/charts/i001572v.PDF
http://www.thefinancials.com/charts/i001610v.PDF
http://www.thefinancials.com/charts/i001625v.PDF

Having a hard time finding commodity price charts for free that I can link to, but those ought to work. For high-income environmentalists in California shopping at Whole Foods, no big deal. For everybody else that's a kick in the teeth and it's only just begun. Not trying to be alarmist; my language is justified, as the transition to biofuels based off edible crops really is just begining and yields just can't respond that quickly.

The measurement here hides the margin compression that is likely occuring but even with that nice cushion food inflation is marching rapidly towards 5%.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CPIUFD...

Of course, so is energy measurements, but air conditioning is a convenience. Food, not so much.

This should also be free to view:
http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displa...

+30% for a broad market food indicator.. not sure what's in that, but just more evidence.

Also, internal oil firms projections (I think PTR's CEO was the last I heard say this) think oil could return to $45 in the long run. It seems clear enough Iranian and Turkish provocation is driving at least some of these record prices. Food, on the other hand, is probably not being stoked in such a way.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Shining Arcanine on 10/27/2007 12:12:53 AM , Rating: 2
Due to supply and demand curves, the cost of a bushel of corn will skyrocket if everyone decides to do that. Ethanol is now barely profitable, despite heavy federal subsides, because of the very same effect.

It is projected that for us to use corn as fuel, we would have to use all of the land in the mainland United States to do it and that is not counting the fact that there are mountains, deserts, roads, etcetera on which people will not be able to grow corn. If there was a year-round growing season like the one Al Gore is predicting, then this might be feasible, provided all of our forest and farmland are replaced with corn fields and we stop eating.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Vanman345 on 10/31/2007 9:05:41 PM , Rating: 2
How bout fixing the prices too....a bushel of corn is currently selling for about $3.16 per bushel.

And lets subtract all the subsidies our government provides for producers of ethanol, as well as the subsidies the farmers receive. I'm not to go the the trouble of digging up all the data on the subsidies and then crunch the numbers, but I think it's safe to assume that a gallon of ethanol costs a hell of a lot more then it does to refine a gallon of gasoline.

As a solution how about removing the 60% tariff on imported ethanol produced in brazil from sugarcane. Which happens to be a much more efficient way to produce ethanol and has the added benefit of not competing with a food staple for people and a most of the meat we eat that is fed corn.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By rangerdavid on 10/26/2007 3:23:29 PM , Rating: 5
Do you know why they have so much corn in those states? Because it's very heavily federally subsidized. Take away all those (wasted) tax dollars, and you don't have so much corn. Furthermore, it's still up in the air whether you actually expend more energy producing ethanol than you get when you use it instead of gasoline. If anything, look to sugar cane, not corn, for your alternative energy source.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By DragonMaster0 on 10/26/2007 7:31:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but it is a tiny bit cleaner

I'm not so sure. Burning corn oil does the same as burning oil, there's CO2 released. At the same time, conversion to ethanol (fermentation) releases CO2, no great benefits here...


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By thejez on 10/26/2007 2:49:10 PM , Rating: 2
FYI an un-modified diesel engine will in fact run on used cooking oil... (i saw this on mythbusters) -- which makes this accord even more enticing... so go right ahead... no one is stopping you.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By kkwst2 on 10/26/2007 3:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
Not in general without processing it or heating it up. On a moderately cold day, your regular diesel engine is not going to start on cold raw cooking oil. I'd like to see the details of what they did on Myth Busters. Maybe I'll see if I can Tivo a repeat. They play the hell out of those episodes.

Even B100 has it's issues on cold days.

That being said, I think biodiesel is a lot better long-term solution than ethanol and I'm in favor of more diesels. I think this is a good move on Honda's part.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By DesertCat on 10/26/2007 5:40:06 PM , Rating: 2
Cooking oil works better if it's actually converted to Biodiesel first. That helps deal with some (not all) of the congealing problems at lower temperatures.

I like the idea of these efficient diesel cars that can run biodiesel. In the long run, however, I don't think corn and other food crops are the way to go. They are too inefficient per acre.

One of the most promising areas for biodiesel is growing algae on sewage. It is not in competition with food/farmland and much more can be produced per acre. For example:

http://www.ecosherpa.com/green-energy/algae-biofue...


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Spuke on 10/26/2007 7:13:40 PM , Rating: 1
I wonder if one can convert horse shit to biodiesel. I've got PLENTY of that.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By 16nm on 10/27/2007 11:46:10 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah, but I see enough bullshit on these comment boards to solve the world's energy problems for ever. LOL

This reminds of MadMax Beyond Thunderdome when they were turning pig excrement into fuel. Oh, if it were really so simple.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By zombiexl on 10/26/2007 8:34:40 PM , Rating: 2
I saw that episode too. You forgot to mention that the myth of it being more economical was busted.

As they pointed out it gets less mpg, and isnt that easy to come by. They also pointed out that while right now it's free, it would definately start costing money if resturaunts knew they could sell their old cooking oil.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By psyph3r on 10/26/2007 2:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
What the other guy said about diesel engines, i did to an 80s Mercedes. You have to find a restaurant to sell the "used" oil from fryers. but it works just fine with limited modification

back to the horrible idea of corn oil...ethanol fuel has raised the price of food everywhere. I think I pay 1 or 2$ more for a 6 pack of Corona thanks to the lack of corn. Also, it takes about .75 gallons of fuel to produce 1 gallon of ethanol based fuel. seems kinda stupid to me.

so...we shouldn't be looking at food for alternative fuels.


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By rangerdavid on 10/26/2007 3:32:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
so...we shouldn't be looking at food for alternative fuels.


Sorry, but this is most certainly NOT a food vs. fuel debate. As I posted earlier, corn is heavily subsidized, and for a multitude of reasons, mostly political, and incredibly cheap and highly available on the market. Corn is used in many ways, including feeding you directly. However, this is a tiny fraction of total consumption, which is primarily for cattle feed and sweeteners (that awful, ubiquitous high fructose corn syrup making America so fat).

I recommend this essential reading: The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals, (link to Amazon, at least read the first Editorial Review for a synopsis.)

http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dilemma-Natural-Hi...


RE: Here's a solution Honda
By Lonyo on 10/26/2007 5:20:55 PM , Rating: 2
You proved his point...
You say it's not a food vs fuel debate by saying most corn is used for cattle feedstock. We tend to eat those cattle, or products derived from cattle... so how is that corn not (indirectly) being a foodstuff?
High price of corn as direct food or as feedstock for animals equates to high price for food.


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