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Hardware Triple Layer, 51GB HD DVD Approved by DVD Forum
Marcus Yam (Blog) - September 10, 2007 12:54 PM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 95 comment(s) - last by timmiser.. on Sep 12 at 1:09 AM

Will Toshiba's latest third-generation players support 51GB discs? Only time will tell.
HD DVD can now boast a 1GB storage advantage over Blu-ray Disc

When comparing the two leading high-definition optical storage formats, the immediate difference between the two is that Blu-ray Disc can store 20GB more than HD DVD. Of course, the HD DVD side had its answer to the apparent deficiency when Toshiba announced at the Consumer Electronics Show 2007 that had developed a triple-layer HD DVD-ROM (read only) disc with a capacity of 51 gigabytes.

The 51GB standard announced early this year, has finally been approved by the DVD Forum – the body responsible for the DVD and HD DVD standard. The 51GB HD DVD standard, which was submitted by Toshiba in April, received approval on August 31, 2007, according to Screen Digest.

HD DVD discs hold 15GB per layer. In order to reach a dual-layer Blu-ray Disc-besting capacity, an extra 2GB per layer was squeezed in, for a total of 51GB. Toshiba states that continued improvement in disc mastering technology has achieved further minimization in the recording pit, allowing for the boost in capacity to 17GB in single layer and a full 51GB on a single-sided triple-layer disc.

The new disc shares the same disc structure as standard DVD and previously announced HD DVD formats: two 0.6-mm thick discs bonded back-to-back. According to Toshiba, the added cost to produce discs with the third layer is minimal, thanks to the use of the same physical disc structure as DVD.

Right now, it is still unclear if the 51GB media requires any change in hardware specification. Should the 51GB HD DVD be incompatible with existing hardware, then current owners of HD DVD players may be left in a situation even less desirable than the Blu-ray Disc Association’s decision to mandate a hardware change this fall. Neither the DVD Forum nor Toshiba has indicated if the new media requires an upgraded optical assembly.

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Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By ZipSpeed on 9/10/2007 1:35:50 PM , Rating: 3
Let's hope the current players will be firmware upgradeable. If it is, that would be a huge advantage over BRD seeing that anyone who bought a HD-DVD would gain this bonus without have to fork $$$ for a new player. If not, let's all do a collective sigh as these hardware upgrades will never end as one association attempts to one-up the other. Seriously, final specifications NEEDS to be addressed otherwise mass adoption will never be a possibly as everyone will continue to wait on the sidelines.




RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By walk2k on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 2:01:48 PM , Rating: 5
> "They will not be compatible with current video players..."

quote:
According to Toshiba, its entire line of HD-DVD players will be able to read these new three layer, 51GB discs, but will require a firmware update to do so.
http://www.psu.com/Toshiba-gains-51GB-HD-DVD-appro...

> "why would it be a "huge advantage over BRD"

Because this would give HD-DVD a size and cost advantage over Blu Ray.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By isorfir on 9/10/2007 2:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to Toshiba, its entire line of HD-DVD players


What about non-Toshiba HD-DVD players?


By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 2:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
Just a guess, but if its possible with a firmware upgrade for one player, its probably so for all.


By ArneBjarne on 9/10/2007 2:33:14 PM , Rating: 5
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=1154...

Question from AVS:

quote:

Originally Posted by ECH
Will all TL51 HD titles be fully compatible with "ALL" HD players? If not, which are?


Answered by Amir:

quote:
Testing is going to start soon. Until then, there is no answer.

Please keep in mind that just because the format gets approved, it doesn't mean it gets used. So if TL-51 is not compatible with current players, the studios may choose to not adopt it and its applications will remain for specialized situations where this doesn't matter.

Then there are in between scenarios such as getting 34 gigabyte HD DVDs (two layers out of three in TL-51). Or having two layers compatible and the third layer holding things that don't matter (PC software, portable video, etc.).

Last but not least, let me say that the interest in forums around TL-51 is about 100X of the people in the HD DVD industry . Of course, if TL-51 proves fully compatible, this may change. But for most of us, TL-51 is a non-event. No different than how an Honda owner thinks wrt to Honda racing. It is cool if Toshiba can pull it off. But nothing in our strategy relies on it existing.
__________________
Amir
Microsoft (HD DVD insider)
VC-1 video codec insider in BD/HD DVD
Ask me questions about HD DVD here


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Visual on 9/11/2007 5:52:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What about non-Toshiba HD-DVD players?

That's a great joke, man. Cracked me up, really.

For those that didn't get it, there are no non-toshiba hd-dvd players, yet.
There are couple models that are toshibas rebadged under other brand, and supposedly a couple new manufacturers are preparing to start their own products very soon, but none yet.


By abhaxus on 9/11/2007 7:19:55 PM , Rating: 2
There will very shortly be a very, very sexy Integra player out there :)


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Keeir on 9/10/2007 3:20:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because this would give HD-DVD a size and cost advantage over Blu Ray.


Did I miss pricing and cost information? Otherwise, it would seem that some HD-DVD disks have an absolute cost advantage and some HD-DVD disks may have an absolute size advantage (after all, this is not shipping media, and Blu-Ray may ship a disk significantly larger than 51 GB by the time this disk does ship) but a cost to size advantage may or may not exist.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 4:02:42 PM , Rating: 2
There must be a cost advantage to OEM's since there is deffonetly a cost advantage (at least in hardware) for the customers... As far as per-disk cost, there's enough to infer that these disks are not expensive to make, but frankly that means zip to the customer, the savings won't be passed on to us.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Keeir on 9/10/2007 4:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
No no

you missed what I was trying to say

Its clear that a HD-DVD single layer disc is less expensive than a Blu-Ray single layer disc.

Its clear that this HD-DVD triple layer disc is bigger than a Blu-Ray double layer disc

it is not clear that a special (17 gigs per layer rather than 15) triple layer HD-DVD disc is cheaper than a Blu-Ray doubler layer disc


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 4:35:46 PM , Rating: 2
> "Its clear that a HD-DVD single layer disc is less expensive than a Blu-Ray single layer disc"

Dual-layer HD-DVDs are cheaper than single-layer BD discs. Given that, it seems a reasonable assumption that triple-layer HD-dVDs will be cheaper than dual-layer BDs.

However, the point is essentially moot, as the price differential between the two media is rapidly dropping and few discs would likely be released in the triple-layer format anyway, as nearly all Hollywood films fit easily within 30GB. The 51GB limit is important for bragging rights, but not much else.


By theflux on 9/10/2007 8:21:07 PM , Rating: 2
How much cheaper?

Can you post your sources?


By deeznuts on 9/10/2007 11:26:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dual-layer HD-DVDs are cheaper than single-layer BD discs. Given that, it seems a reasonable assumption that triple-layer HD-dVDs will be cheaper than dual-layer BDs.
You might end up being 100% correct, but that is not a reasonable assumption, unless you have some sources or more information.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:12:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dual-layer HD-DVDs are cheaper than single-layer BD discs. Given that


Given what? AFAIR HDDVD discs are a bit cheaper to produce than BluRay discs. So giving a bit of extra price to a HDDVD can only make it cost nearly equal to a BD disc...

Given a dual layer HDDVD costs nearly equal as a single layer BD disc and has equal capacity.

Given THAT you can only assume that the price difference will grow to the same price difference that is now between the two when BlueRay goes to double layer.

But a double layer BD disc had 100GB and that equals to a 4 layer HDDVD... so this kind of comparison is not fair... with every layer a BD disc grow the capacity difference.


By steven975 on 9/11/2007 12:13:43 PM , Rating: 2
except nothing is on the horizon for Blu-Ray.

all the demos of multi-layered BDs required modified optics.


By MrPoletski on 9/11/2007 8:25:18 AM , Rating: 2
Good point well made.

It's also not clear, however, whether sony are just gonna bung a 3rd layer on their discs in response...

They already have a mandated hardware change in the future (which sounds yet to be finalised) so they could just future proof players then for 3 layer operation.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By GNStudios on 9/10/2007 4:26:24 PM , Rating: 2
only in ROM-mode. What about the writable and re-writable discs?


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By timmiser on 9/10/2007 6:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
There are no writable or re-writable HD-DVD discs.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Keeir on 9/10/2007 7:14:34 PM , Rating: 2
No... there are Writable once HD-DVD media avaibile online (newegg) for 9.99 per disc and at Retail (CompUsa), 17.99 per disc.

There is no re-writable or dual layer writeable HD-DVD discs availible (for consumer purchase) that I know. But since there are no drives yet..


By timmiser on 9/12/2007 1:09:35 AM , Rating: 2
Well Hello, Hello! Thanks for the heads up.

I guess this answers the age old question of what came first, the burner or the burner media?

Do you know of anyone selling a burner to burn on this media?


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By walk2k on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 9:36:30 PM , Rating: 3
From what I read here

http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replicatio...

Dual layer HD costs as much as a single layer of Blueray, based on what info I see about scaling up layers, tripple layer HD *may* be slightly more expensive than tripple layer HD... But even if it is, the cost difference won't matter. In short, I don't think either side is going backrupt getting discs out there so really it doesn't matter at all.


By Locutus465 on 9/11/2007 1:18:15 AM , Rating: 2
Wow.. That should read *cheaper than dual layer BD.... :P


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By daniyarm on 9/11/2007 12:43:15 AM , Rating: 2
what are on dude? HD-DVD is way cheaper to produce than BD. It's also cheaper to buy. Just because CC and BB are charging more for HD-DVD because they support BD doesn't mean anything. Do your research before you post BD fanboy!


By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:17:35 AM , Rating: 2
Do you own research.
It's a matter of a few cents.
The price difference is in producing the discs for studios.
Since BD stamp machines cost and operate on much higher prices than HDDVD stamp machines which are basically DVD stamp machines.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Locutus465 on 9/11/2007 1:21:10 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah, and I found no shortage of HD-DVD disks out there (since we're discussing readonly media, I'm referring to movies)... In fact I went to Best Buy just the other day and it was a dead even split between the formats. There wasn't any difference in price either, so I'm having any difficulty understanding why the cost to turn out media for your HD player (BD or HD-DVD) is going to make a difference.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By steven975 on 9/11/2007 12:16:26 PM , Rating: 2
it makes a difference to studios as it is extra profit.

right now, studios dabble in blu-ray. Once they get to sufficient volumes, massive investment in plant and equipment must be made IN ADDITION to DVD lines. HD-DVD can run on the same line. MAJOR cost savings there.


By Locutus465 on 9/11/2007 4:43:46 PM , Rating: 1
Doesn't seem to be true right now, in fact in some cases HD can be more expensive due to the need to put movies on Dual Layer discs v. Single layer.... I'm not really a blueray fan, but based on what I've read (links somewhere here), the cost differneces between HD and BD are some small that frankly disc cost is not going to drive studio's from one format to another... Not if the differnce is a $500 total on a large batch.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By otispunkmeyer on 9/11/2007 4:37:19 AM , Rating: 2
whats to stop BR makers making 3 layer BR discs?

we'll just go round in circles one upping each other.

HD-DVD has 51gb today, next week BR is up to 75gb


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:20:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
HD-DVD has 51gb today, next week BR is up to 75gb


That would be very odd since they would have to produce a layer and a half BD disc to match 75 Gb. If one layer has 50Gb then 2 should have 100GB...

75.5Gb is a three layer HDDVD.


By theapparition on 9/11/2007 9:07:52 AM , Rating: 2
Errr, HD-DVD uses 15GB layers (17GB for the TL-51GB). Blue-Ray uses 25GB layers. Triple layer HD-DVD would be 51GB (as the title of the article), while dual layer BD is 50GB.

No clue where you got your information from, unless you were joking. If you were joking, don't try to make a career in stand-up.


By MrPoletski on 9/11/2007 8:23:21 AM , Rating: 2
Indeed you are correct...

I don't see what is to stop Blu-Ray engineers moving to triple layer discs too though.

In fact, that would probably be a killer move for sony because ti would up their capacity to 75gb, so HDDVD would need another 2 layers to beat it, or one to come up to 68GB.

But another things.... layer changes while you're watching movies are annoying. I've seen chuffing steam trains going at full whack.. pause for a half second.. then carry on chuffing. I mean wtf, ok, good screenplay can avoid them being noticable but I don't like extra layers too much.

What I'd like to see is multiple read heads for those multiple layers. So you have a 3 layer disc. Layers 1+2 are the main film and read sequentially. Layer 3 is read simultaneously and contains further detail improvements to the main film files located on layers 1+2 which can be accessed by a 3 layer player.

Or with a system of one read head per layer, you could store the movies much like a striped RAID array, so you never have to experience a layer change and enjoy a theoretical tripling of your read speed. That would also make seeking faster and the 3 read heads will always be reading the same position, so you'd only need 1 rotor arm to position the 3 lasers/lenses.

I always said, forget higher spindle speeds, the best way top get more data off a disc of any type is to have more read heads, especially on optical (cd/dvd/sacd/bd) because they seek so damn slowly.


Read Only???
By zinfamous on 9/10/2007 2:39:19 PM , Rating: 6
I'm I the only one who saw this?

quote:
Electronics Show 2007 that had developed a triple-layer HD DVD-ROM (read only) disc with a capacity of 51 gigabytes.


to me, as far as content (studio-release films) the capacity of either disc is essentioally meaningless. The advantage of BR has always been greater capacity--which is primarily a data storage solution.

So, if these higher capacity HD DVD discs are going to be read-only....where is the real advantage? It simply doesn't matter how much you increase capacity if the movie only takes up 20gig or so.

I suppose you could make double or triple feature single discs, which is nice and all...but something BR can do anyway.




RE: Read Only???
By timmiser on 9/10/2007 6:40:51 PM , Rating: 2
You bring up an excellent point.


RE: Read Only???
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 9/11/2007 3:57:13 AM , Rating: 2
Excellent point.


RE: Read Only???
By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:27:16 AM , Rating: 2
Excellent reasoning. We all argue which one is best/cheper/bigger but since high capacity is for data storage i presume this discs don't have a true market since movies with extras fit on a single layer HDDVD...


RE: Read Only???
By MrPoletski on 9/11/2007 8:30:42 AM , Rating: 2
Well I think there is gonna be pressure on the HDDVD content creators to choose compression ratios to fill the disc.

But then they could be limiting their audience if they (at least in the short term) snub the people who (won't/can't/don't know anything about it*) upgrade their players to 3 layer ability.

*delete as applicable.


Stop
By kileil on 9/10/2007 1:01:31 PM , Rating: 5
HD! Blue Ray! No, you cannot have any more standards until you finalize the ones youve already proposed. And don't you try to hide that hdmi 1.3 support under the mashed potatoes.

Now go to your rooms!




RE: Stop
By Oregonian2 on 9/10/2007 1:12:22 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't it the finalizing of something proposed quite some time ago exactly what they just did?


RE: Stop
By v1001 on 9/10/2007 1:25:36 PM , Rating: 2
HD-DVD has been finalized from the beginning. 3 layers was proposed and in the specs a long time ago. Supposedly these should play just fine in all generation HD-DVD players. Maybe just a firmware update, which is easy since all HD-DVD players have an ethernet port built in. But I suppose that still remains to be seen, you never know what bugs could come up since it is still something new coming after the fact that players are already out there. I doubt though that anyone will need a new player It's just not HD-DVD's way of doing things. Especially with all these new companies joining HD-DVD with new players now. To have them all be outdated before they even got made just doesn't seem likely. I see this as only a good thing.


RE: Stop
By kileil on 9/10/2007 1:44:26 PM , Rating: 2
True, from the aspect of uniform standards hd-dvd has been the better of the two. BlueRay has continued to be a moving target for all manufacturers. Lets just hope you're correct on the backwards compatibility so current players don't become pricey doorstops.


RE: Stop
By Devo2007 on 9/10/2007 1:51:16 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct about the idea of 3-layer HD-DVD's being around for a while.

http://www.dailytech.com/Three+HD+Layers+Today+Ten...

(yes, I did grab this off the "Related Articles" to the right).


By PAPutzback on 9/10/2007 2:23:48 PM , Rating: 1
Come next year, both players will be under 200. There won't be a winner and the same posters will be arguing the same comments. This will all go on until a new single format comes out unrelated to either. I'll buy that player. No wait. I'll just download the HI-def material. Screw both players. And I'll buy a TV when 1440P is available and projectors come with LED bulbs instead of the current short life bulbs. It's all crap. At least the people who have enough sense to buy a gaming console with HI-def capabilities will still be able to play games and download content once the next format comes along. The standalone player buyers - well you gotta enough money to throw away so it doesn't matter. Hey I hear there is a HD-VMD format now, you better get that player because it will be the winner. Poster TomXG4T says so.




By Nlight95 on 9/10/2007 2:35:14 PM , Rating: 3
If there's one thing AMD proved over Intel it's that backward compatibility is extremely important, hence the success behind x64 over the latter's Itanium, which requires entirely new compilers. This is one huge advantage HD-DVD has over BD imho and may just be the deciding factor in the long run. But then again, if HD-DVDs royalty fees are too high (i.e. BetaMax) it will be superseded by another, less-expensive standard.

Personally my vote is for whatever standard has less or no DRM intrusion.


By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 3:21:50 PM , Rating: 2
Considering the number of inexpensive players coming out onto the market and the average cost of an HD-DVD I would say that royalty fee's are not an issue for that particular standard... If anyone needs to worry about price it's Blueray group.


By bigpow on 9/10/2007 3:29:40 PM , Rating: 2
Don't feel sorry for us early adopters.
We don't!

Honestly I've been enjoying 42" 1080p bliss for more than a year. Absolutely a blast! HD-DVD/BD - bring it on!

Would I repeat it again if given the chance? I WOULD.

So go ahead, feel sorry for yourself for sitting on the fence while the rest of us enjoy the emerging techs freely.

The only reason why anyone would regret being an early adopter is if the product is a bust.

Regretting over the price is SILLY and you SHOULD NOT even think about buying it in the first place if you think it's too expensive!


By PAPutzback on 9/10/2007 4:58:06 PM , Rating: 2
I don't feel sorry for myself. I can't afford an island ro a trip to the moon. So do I dwell about it in the forums. I just find it funny people keep arguing one side over the other and complaining about cost. Obviously people with deep pockets will buy them all while some get the itch to buy one format and will defend it because they can't afford both.


By timmiser on 9/10/2007 6:35:01 PM , Rating: 2
So I guess your point is to wait. Wait for it all to be decided or just wait cuz another format is coming. Just wait. Wait a few more years and then maybe wait some more. Keep on waiting and pretty soon you are dead!

Life is too short to keep waiting!


To Dear HD-DVD,
By A5un on 9/10/2007 1:14:31 PM , Rating: 2
So I guess size do matter after all?

In any case, we shall see what this triple layer stuff does to the pricing. Also, I thought I heard news before that work is being done to increase BD to 80GB or 100GB, or somewhere around there?




RE: To Dear HD-DVD,
By isorfir on 9/10/2007 2:02:36 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, there's already a working version of a 200GB Blu-ray disc.

http://www.tdk.com/procommon/press/article.asp?sit...


RE: To Dear HD-DVD,
By Fnoob on 9/10/2007 8:34:12 PM , Rating: 2
And? I read this in Aug 06 also, but where is it?

Certainly we must all buy new hardware for the soon to be 75G drives... again for the 150; perhaps the year later we can upgrade again to the 200G!!

/Insert Ren and Stimpy "JOY!"

Then four months later all the cool folk (the ones that bought an iPhone for $600) with your 200G optical media can clamour over the latest holo-storage media.

The question I ask? How much do we need, and truly, how BAD do we really need it?

Cheers


RE: To Dear HD-DVD,
By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 3:19:51 PM , Rating: 2
Not unless extra capacity means better quality movies which it won't...


It's 1976 all over again Sony
By anonymo on 9/10/2007 2:33:41 PM , Rating: 2
Flame me all you want but Sony just lost the game, again. They are used to it. It's what happens when you blatantly try to screw your customers. This time however the professional film industry isn't going to use BR for anything but coasters.

Sony still makes some good products but whenever I see the words "innovation" and "Sony" in the same sentence I laugh out loud and then get very, very scared.

Well, time to thank Sony for once again forcing prices up in the audio-visual world and putting development to a stand still.

This really wouldn't bother me as much if I didn't hear people talk about "Blue-Ray is the only real HD format, HD-DVD doesn't handle high definition" or "my Mini-Disc audio quality is so fantastically better than CD" all the time.

I guess it's like everyone always says, the Japanese love to punish the ignorant.




By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 3:27:29 PM , Rating: 2
I won't flame, but I don't entirely agree either... This isn't quite a BetaMax v. VHS, and it doesn't seem like Sony is *trying* to screw customers here as much as they've just invented an overly complex solution for getting HD movie content to your TV... I'm sure Blueray has it's technical good points, but unfortunetly it's too expensive and difficult to manufacture... It really does seem like blueray hardware OEM's are running into more issues than HD ones... Just an outside observation, please feel free to correct if that isn't the case.


And next week on DT
By acer905 on 9/10/2007 2:39:07 PM , Rating: 2
(Deep booming voice)
Introducing the new HD-UD! The HYPER DEFINITION-UBER DISK!!
By using UBER technology we have managed to make HIGH DEFINITION look like STANDARD DEFINITION!! Available everywhere for lifetime monthly payments of 9.99!




RE: And next week on DT
By Etsp on 9/10/2007 3:42:04 PM , Rating: 2
That doesn't seem realistic. The profit margins are way too low for that sort of High-End State-of-the-Art Technology, it should be more like $9.99 a week.


I'm not gonna buy it
By DeepBlue1975 on 9/10/2007 1:56:48 PM , Rating: 2
I want the 100gb/disc promised like... what, 2 years ago?
Oh, yes, and I also want that to be mainstream affordable, I won't buy bleeding edge stuff that gives me no real benefit over "dull edge" stuff.

And by the way, I guess that by the time some of these formats come close to giving 100gb/disc, it will be a not-so-great size as 1tb hdds will almost be popular and ssds boasting 100gb will be selling at a "possible to justify paying" price for home users.

Let the news keep coming, as for now both technologies to me are pure promise with little to no benefits and at a quite steep price.

I'm talking just about data recording, not movies... That's another matter, and I don't see the point of a movie taking advantage, at least today, of a 50gb space...
I love 4gbs dvds and the way they look, I even like normal quality divxs even when seen on LCD screens so I guess I'll personally never see point in buying none of these.




*yawn*
By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 3:17:12 PM , Rating: 2
Unless this means better features for customers (which it likely will not), then I guess this is *nice*, but whatever... HD-DVD didn't seem to have any *real* difficencies to begin with, I don't think this is going to change anything. I suppose if they get this working with readwrite then some people might start caring.




And the real advantage is???
By HighWing on 9/10/2007 3:51:47 PM , Rating: 1
Seriously am I the only one thinking big deal now the discs are on more equal grounds?

So they have 1gb more now... woohoo. But honestly, how many movies that come out ever really come close to using the full disc size where an extra 1gb would make a difference?

The only way I see this being any advantage is if it still costs less then a BRD. But even then, it's only "1GB"! If the cost savings are not significantly different then all you can really say is both format discs are on a more equal playing ground now.




Sweet.
By retrospooty on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sweet.
By Bioniccrackmonk on 9/10/2007 1:17:19 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The less say Sony has in the future of anything, the better off we all are.


I think this would be the better way to word your sentence: "The less that any corporation who only cares about their bottom line has in the future of anything, the better off we all are."

Either that, or you only shop at Sony while bashing them at the same time, which would be an oxy-moron.

Either way, everyone has to admit that the only reason these companies are vying for the next gen standard is the royalties they will receive from it. That's it, they want the consumers to spend money on their products so they can take it to the bank.


RE: Sweet.
By retrospooty on 9/10/2007 1:21:56 PM , Rating: 1
True, too much power in any companies hands is a bad thing, but I would put Sony at the top of my list of the worst, based on thier past 5 years of total idiocy in all markets. I keep my original statement.


RE: Sweet.
By Nanobaud on 9/10/2007 1:29:11 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I think this would be the better way to word your sentence: "The less that any corporation who only cares about their bottom line has in the future of anything, the better off we all are."


How about:
"The less that any corporation who only cares about their content business has in the future of hardware standards , the better off we all are."

Long ago, Sony was a pretty decent hardware company.


RE: Sweet.
By kyp275 on 9/10/2007 2:00:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The less that any corporation who only cares about their bottom line has in the future of anything, the better off we all are.


here's a reality check for you - the bottom line IS what corporations only care about. R&D, advertising, customer service, etc. is all ultimately about increasing their profit.

No company out there is doing anything out of the kindess of their heart.


RE: Sweet.
By walk2k on 9/10/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sweet.
By ajira99 on 9/10/2007 2:07:56 PM , Rating: 2
You could apply that same argument to Apple.


RE: Sweet.
By FITCamaro on 9/10/2007 2:16:40 PM , Rating: 1
The difference is that Microsoft helped the format that the DVD Forum went with. You know, that group that comes up with and decides on standards? Sony choose to do its own thing (again) and make its own format. Microsoft's involvement with HD DVD was minimal.


RE: Sweet.
By deeznuts on 9/10/2007 2:23:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The difference is that Microsoft helped the format that the DVD Forum went with. You know, that group that comes up with and decides on standards?
A significant amount of that group jumped to BD. Go look at membership for both formats, BD is much larger. As of 2005, when the war first really started to emerge, 7 of the original 10 members of the DVD Forum signed on to BD.

Just as a note, triple and quadruple layer BD's have been spotted in the wild, not sure how far along they are for approval though.


RE: Sweet.
By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 2:45:16 PM , Rating: 2
> "Go look at membership for both formats, BD is much larger"

No. The DVD Forum- which is responsible for HD-DVD also-- has well over 300 member companies. The BDA is listed as having more than 250 "members and supporters".


RE: Sweet.
By theflux on 9/10/2007 8:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
Because Toshiba steamrolled AOD through the DVD Forum does not mean that all of those companies support HD DVD. To imply otherwise is just dishonest. Those companies are/were members for SD DVD.


RE: Sweet.
By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:37:33 AM , Rating: 2
Well check again...
Just go on their sites and look at the numbers.

BD has more companies in the chair of directors and more member companies.

The guy that said it wasn't spitting numbers out of his arse, he actually said the truth.

It's just that Toshiba has been chosen by the DVD consortium... and Toshiba is pretty much alone in producing HDDVD and HDDVD drives. Just look at how many companies produced drives for either format.


RE: Sweet.
By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:41:40 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Sweet.
By erikejw on 9/11/2007 10:23:29 AM , Rating: 2
BD seems to have a very impressive lineup.
HDDVD seems to be Toshiba, Microsoft and Intel.


RE: Sweet.
By threepac3 on 9/10/2007 2:35:27 PM , Rating: 2
The DVD Forums power comes from its members hold on potential markets. Without those members the DVD Forum would not exist and if there is another group even more powerful in these areas whats to say that they can't create a potential standard of there own?

You act as if the DVD Forum holds the unquestionable right to create disk standards.


RE: Sweet.
By walk2k on 9/10/2007 7:41:00 PM , Rating: 3
Check your facts again. Many companies left the DVD Forum when they refused to start working on a High-Definition standard, fearing that it would eat into DVD sales. If it had not been for Sony and the rest of the Blu-ray backers we wouldn't even have HD format discs right now! Seriously get off the anti-Sony FUDwagon and smell the facts.


RE: Sweet.
By retrospooty on 9/10/2007 5:46:02 PM , Rating: 2
I fail to see what you mean.

Sony created Blue Ray, and other companies signed on. It IS a Sony initiative

MS did not create HD-DVD, they are merely one of many companies that helped. MS also supports Blue ray in thier OS's.


RE: Sweet.
By djkrypplephite on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sweet.
By michal1980 on 9/10/2007 2:25:23 PM , Rating: 1
because toshiba is better then sony?


RE: Sweet.
By FITCamaro on 9/10/2007 2:26:59 PM , Rating: 3
That kind of argument makes you look like an ignorant anti-Sony hater.

I like HD DVD, but not because I hate Sony. I think its the better of the two formats since its cheaper and has less DRM. If Sony had come up with HD DVD and Toshiba, Microsoft, etc. had come up with Blu-ray, I'd still like HD DVD. Unfortunately for Sony, they're often on the wrong side of these arguments.


RE: Sweet.
By BansheeX on 9/11/2007 1:02:08 AM , Rating: 2
Cheaper in the short term. Both formats have the same rock bottom, it will simply take a little bit longer for blu-ray to get there. So essentially, for the major disc format for the next fifteen years, you're supporting a temporarily cheaper format with more disc-swapping, less storage per layer (very important considering burn reliability), and slightly less DRM? Consider a future where HD-DVD wins and then consider a future where blu-ray wins. Writable media is 15gb per layer instead of 25gb. TV shows have 30% more discs and disc-swappage. Why? Because you want your $200 hd player RIGHT NOW? This is what the blu-ray people are thinking. If the technology exists to increase capacity and disc robustness remarkably, why not wait a little and take it? I don't know about you, but it sure makes me feel better to have these when I know I'm going to be investing hundreds if not thousands in the next fifteen years on movies and tv shows in HD. Makes wanting to save $150 on TODAY's stand-alones seem like a silly decision.


RE: Sweet.
By Locutus465 on 9/11/2007 1:27:34 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know about you, but I would like to get to that rock bottom faster....


here it comes
By mdogs444 on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
RE: here it comes
By Oregonian2 on 9/10/2007 1:16:43 PM , Rating: 2
Has more to do with how much does it cost and does anybody care. Thing about HD is it's being made in similar fashion as regular DVDs and the manufacturing part being in expensive. So if one did want to compare (like 50G Movies exist) then the question would be whether it's cheaper to manufacturer a 3-layer HD vs a 2-layer BR. From the comparisons I recall with the 2-layer vs 2-layer, the HD 3-layer would still be quite a bit cheaper to make.


RE: here it comes
By Bioniccrackmonk on 9/10/2007 1:27:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Thing about HD is it's being made in similar fashion as regular DVDs and the manufacturing part being in expensive.


You know, if that were the case I think HD DVD would have won by now. But, since cost of savings for making the disc is not passed on to the consumers, then why should it matter to us. And if you don't know what I am talking about, take a trip to your local Best Buy and Target like I did and compare the dvd costs to buy either BDs or HD DVDs. You know what I saw, both being 29.99 for new movies, and 25.99 for older ones that are still new. The only price differences I saw were for the players themselves and that is where HD DVD is winning, becuase they were cheaper.


RE: here it comes
By FITCamaro on 9/10/2007 2:10:45 PM , Rating: 2
Also remember though that a lot of HD DVD movies also have the DVD version on the other side of the disc. That adds cost.


RE: here it comes
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/11/2007 8:09:14 AM , Rating: 1
Which they need to stop doing. If they would knock that shit off and release it HD DVD only on the disc it wouldn't be a problem.


RE: here it comes
By Locutus465 on 9/11/2007 4:49:54 PM , Rating: 2
I think they do it right now as an insentive... "See, you can buy the HD disk now and play it in your regular player and upgrade hardware later"... Or how about (better yet) "Ok, so you want to watch HD content at home on your Home theater! Awesome! What if you want to watch it at friends house who doesn't have an HD set up? Or lend it out? Not a problem!".....

I'm sure they'll stop once there is a big enough market.


RE: here it comes
By Locutus465 on 9/11/2007 4:50:08 PM , Rating: 2
I think they do it right now as an insentive... "See, you can buy the HD disk now and play it in your regular player and upgrade hardware later"... Or how about (better yet) "Ok, so you want to watch HD content at home on your Home theater! Awesome! What if you want to watch it at friends house who doesn't have an HD set up? Or lend it out? Not a problem!".....

I'm sure they'll stop once there is a big enough market.


RE: here it comes
By dflynchimp on 9/10/2007 1:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
mkay, that thought probably crossed every one of our minds when we read that article.

meh, there's ALWAYS people who will care about higher specs.

think the AMD vs. Intel Gigahertz war


this wasn't approved by the full approval commite
By michal1980 on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
By FITCamaro on 9/10/2007 2:42:00 PM , Rating: 2
I still think 30GB is plenty for a movie. 51GB discs will make it more attractive for a storage format on the PC compared to Blu-ray. Which is the only thing I like Blu-ray for. Data backup.


By Keeir on 9/10/2007 3:23:49 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunely, this is a Read Only Disc. So right now, Blu-Ray is still more attractive for computer back up. Not the least because you can actually buy drives at retail in the US


By Inkjammer on 9/10/2007 2:49:21 PM , Rating: 2
That's crazy talk! Surely 512K will last forever and high definition 256 color shall last forever! Who needs these gigabytes and multi-tasking fangled technowadgets.


By timmiser on 9/10/2007 6:38:47 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, I just happy we have progressed past the world of CGA!

Light blue and pink no more!


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