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CEO Jonathan Schwartz speaking during the summit  (Source: Sun Microsystems)
Java on mobile phones should be big for Sun Microsystems in the future

Sun Microsystems sees a bright future for the company's Java software on mobile phones. CEO Jonathan Schwartz is even willing to predict that the marketplace is "going to be defined by the consuming public as much as by the traditional IT decision-maker."

During a press and analyst event at the company's Menlo Park campus recently, Schwartz kicked off the event with a keynote and panel discussion that specifically went over mobile phones in the emerging markets. Brazil, Russia, India, China and Africa (BRICA) were the main nations highlighted.  

Why are companies -- including mobile device manufacturers -- targeting the emerging markets?  It appears there are "already more mobile phones than wire lines in BRIC countries," according to Sun.  As noted by Reuters, mobile phones in the emerging markets are quickly outpacing wired telephone lines as the main method of communication.

According to numbers compiled by Sun, there are "more than 4B Java devices" on the market worldwide.

Even though many of the countries are still updating the way they can create infrastructures to support PCs, mobile phone access continues to grow at an alarming rate.  China alone has more than 600 million phones, with more than 1 billion expected within the next decade, according to one of the panelists during the event. 


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Sun and Java and Profit
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 8:57:53 AM , Rating: 5
Java is great, but what's the point for Sun? Sun has never made, nor is it currently making practically any money from Java, and doesn't seem to have any business plans to make money from it in the future.

So, Sun: What's the point? Making something that is popular but makes no profit is the hallmark of the foolishness of the dot-com boom companies. Most of those companies are out of business now. Does Sun plan to follow in their footsteps?




RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By Screwballl on 8/30/2007 9:40:30 AM , Rating: 4
They wouldn't still be around if they weren't making any money. To the end users they may have the SDK and software for free but when a software requires use of Java, many times they require licensing from Sun. Add on top of that the server sales and I would say they are doing well. The problem is that Java was a great language in the earlier days when the computer was about as fast as some mobile phones nowadays. With the expansion of Ruby on Rails and the ease of C++ and C# among other languages, Java is slowly becoming a mobile-only language.


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 9:47:04 AM , Rating: 2
Java is now open-source, and so licensing revenue is going to zero. Even when they licensed it, it was estimated that they only earned only somewhere in the tens of millions of dollars per year in licensing revenue. What kind of return on investment is that?

From what I understand (I don't follow their financials closely), they're still losing money. I would guess they're still living off the payment they received from Microsoft.

I wish someone would explain to me the logic of the business model that Sun had with Java, because it never made any sense to me.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 8/30/2007 10:40:40 AM , Rating: 3
There isn't from what I have seen and read. Sun has a business model that only Sun would understand.


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By HardwareD00d on 8/30/2007 5:54:19 PM , Rating: 2
I happen program in C++, C# and Java and can tell you that at least from a language standpoint, C# and Java are almost identical. Microsoft copied Java, got into trouble with Sun, and had to yank their own "version". So they essentially copied it anyway and gave it the name "C#". It is almost identical, uses a similar Virtual Machine, etc.

C++ is not an "ease of use" language. It is quite complex and has much potential for causing problems. This is why we have Java and C# now. Java has been called C++-- because some of the more complex, insecure, and dangerous language constructs have been removed to simplify things and make code safer (less chance of memory leaks, pointer issues, etc.)


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 6:04:10 PM , Rating: 2
1. Microsoft didn't get in trouble for copying the Java language - do your research!

2. Java was derived primarily from C and C++, and C# was derived from C, C++, and Java. C# is not a copy of Java; the syntax is similar, but not the same. Compare and contrast the implementations of enum, properties (absent in Java), namespaces, generics, etc. Similar, yes; same, no.


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By HardwareD00d on 8/31/2007 3:33:12 AM , Rating: 2
You must work for Microshaft. If you don't think m$ got in trouble with Sun over Java patent infringement, just you take a look at this link, stinky boy:

http://toastytech.com/news/newsvictor.html

I don't think most informed people need the real link to know I'm right. But if they do, here it is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/long...

Anyhoo, you are a dumb ass and you can believe anything you want.


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By HardwareD00d on 8/31/2007 3:39:40 AM , Rating: 2
I should definitely be uprated for that quick thinking ninja commentary! Down with the Pirates!!! Oh come on ya scuvey blokes, have a sense of humor!


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By HardwareD00d on 8/31/2007 3:44:48 AM , Rating: 2
I need to lay off the caffeine.


By damncrackmonkey on 9/3/2007 10:15:35 AM , Rating: 2
the trouble was over j++ (now j#) which is effectively java. its current aim is to allow java code to compile on the .net platform without editing the source. it doesn't really work all that well.

insulting microsoft and posters who disagree with you doesn't make you anymore correct. if you wish to disagree with my assertion, you may want to make note of when the lawsuit was filed (1997) and when c# was actually introduced (2001)


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By subhajit on 8/31/2007 7:23:56 AM , Rating: 2
First of all Java is not just a language it is also a platform. There are platforms for mobile, desktop and enterprise. Java was developed in the nineties (1995) and it was developed primarily for small electronic devices. One of the unique features of Java is platform independence (build once run anywhere). The boom of internet fueled the growth of Java and widened its scope of application beyond what its developers had initially thought. Java Enterprise Platform is a top class, robust, secure framework and a lot of mission critical enterprise applications are developed on it. I don't think we can write it off just yet.


RE: Sun and Java and Profit
By Shadowmaster625 on 8/30/2007 11:26:18 AM , Rating: 2
they may not profit from java but one thing java does is prevent competitors from profiting (or profiting as much). That is a sort of profit. Unfortunately for java, it's just not very efficient. Any mobile device that uses java is going to end up consuming more power due to it's inefficiency.


Java
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 8/30/2007 9:12:19 AM , Rating: 2
Yea, except Java is NOT all that and a bag of chips like Sun would have you believe. There is a strong movement in the PC market to move away from Java and I have seen apps that were once Java based now move to something else in recent releases.

Now, for mobile devices Java isnt bad for making a simple OS, but it has some stiff competition from Linux, Windows Mobile, and Palm in this area.




RE: Java
By Griswold on 8/30/2007 9:56:52 AM , Rating: 3
Java on phones is not mainly about an OS its about applications. Just look at the sheer number of J2ME apps out there - and they run on any phone of any brand with any OS if its the desire of the manufacturer. For example, j2me is the only way to run apps and games on SonyEricssons proprietaryOS phones.


RE: Java
By djcameron on 8/30/2007 12:15:51 PM , Rating: 2
Java is fine for server-based applications, but it really sucks when used for fat client applications. It just doesn't do user interfaces well.


RE: Java
By MGSsancho on 8/30/2007 3:36:12 PM , Rating: 2
I have worked at a software company that used java exclusively, I must say with eclipse, if you really wanted to with out much effort, you can make GUIs. The problem is most people java its a scripting language that you can just whip something up like php or python. Because of the the devs get underfunded and time to do a great front end. but i agree, GUIs in the past 10 years sucked balls. oh keep this in mind, some ARM 11 Processors have built in JIT (just in time) java compiler. The iPhone has such a proc. However i doubt apple would allow consumers access to this inherent functionality.

Your comment about java on the server is true. if you have competent devs, you can do amazing things. Then again with anything, well trained and motivated (paid) developers can do great stuff.


RE: Java
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 8:44:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I must say with eclipse, if you really wanted to with out much effort, you can make GUIs.

Last I checked (only about 1 year ago), Eclipse didn't even have a production-quality GUI designer at all. There was some pre-alpha crap, but most people doing realy work were coding their GUIs in text editors, which is non-productive. Is that still the state-of-the-art for GUI design in Eclipse?


4B
By Martimus on 8/30/2007 9:11:42 AM , Rating: 2
I am guessing that the line "There are more than 4B Java ...", means 4 billion. If not please enlighten me.




RE: 4B
By Scrogneugneu on 8/30/2007 10:20:22 PM , Rating: 2
No, it's in hexadecimal.

It really means "There are more than 75 Java ...".


RE: 4B
By Martimus on 8/31/2007 10:19:28 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks, that clears it right up. I wouldn't have thought of that.


Sun *is* making money!
By rttrek on 8/30/2007 5:05:00 PM , Rating: 2
All these comments about Sun losing money!! Sun has been in the black for several quarters. Sales are up, income is up. They must know something!




RE: Sun *is* making money!
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 6:06:21 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, you're right - Sun has made money this past year, but it has also lost money for many years prior to that. But that's kind of beside the point.

Being profitable is nice, however, it doesn't silence the criticism about the business sense behind their approach to Java.


Sun
By Araxen on 8/30/2007 9:11:09 AM , Rating: 1
It's hard to believe Sun is even around anymore. All they really have is Java and like the parent said they don't even make money it!




RE: Sun
By mdogs444 on 8/30/2007 9:15:04 AM , Rating: 2
Sun makes their money in the server market and consulting services for large corporate data centers.

We have Sun consultants at our new $9mil data center construction site in columbus, oh.


Java & Mobile Phones
By hampstead40 on 8/30/2007 9:55:31 AM , Rating: 2
Java is the application platform within the SIMs that are contained within every 2G/3G GSM phone in the world. SIMs are moving away from just a network authorization token to an actual secure platform (with the addition of flash memory) which can run small "service" applications. given the growth of the mobile market, java will be embedded in the largest and fastest growing technology platform in the world.




By TomZ on 8/30/2007 12:17:47 PM , Rating: 2
I was reading up a bit, trying to understand what Sun is trying to do with Java, and I came across the news that Sun is going to change their stock ticker symbol from SUNW to JAVA.

http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/java_is_everyw...

It's kind of interesting, I don't think I've ever seen such a negative reaction in his blog comments. There must be hundreds of negative comments on the announcement.

In any case, Schwartz's observation about the brand value of Java is on the money, but what he doesn't seem to have a plan for is how to use that brand to drive revenue/profit.




"So, I think the same thing of the music industry. They can't say that they're losing money, you know what I'm saying. They just probably don't have the same surplus that they had." -- Wu-Tang Clan founder RZA









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