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"300" is the fastest selling high definition movie to date  (Source: Warner Home Video)
Warner owns 30 percent of HD DVD, Blu-ray Disc market thanks to "300," “The Departed,” “Planet Earth,” and others

The CGI-filled blockbuster movie “300” hit the home video market just over a week ago, and has already set the record for being the fastest and highest-selling high definition title. Since July 31, 2007, “300” has sold more than 250,000 copies to consumers on HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc, according to Warner Home Video. The studio division declined to reveal specific sales numbers according to format.

“‘300’ is an amazing film, and the high definition sales we are seeing underscores the positive business benefits of supporting both HD DVD and Blu-ray,” said Ron Sanders, President of Warner Home Video. “This phenomenal response to ‘300’ is the latest proof that our approach makes the most sense in today’s market and has enabled Warner Home Video to continue to lead the market in high definition sales.”

Shortly after the movie’s release to the home market, DailyTech used “300” to outline the current differences in the available feature sets of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc. The HD DVD product featured exclusive picture-in-picture video and web features not found on any other version.

Warner was also proud to boast that its home video division has six of the top 10 selling high definition titles with “300,” “The Departed,” “Superman Returns,” “Planet Earth - The Complete Collection,” “Batman Begins,” and “Happy Feet.”

Warner owns the title of the highest grossing high definition title with the dual-format release of “Planet Earth” – though the title’s MSRP just shy of $100 makes that a predictable feat.

With its relative neutral support for both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc, Warner is able to cash in on sales from both sides of the high definition camp. Warner says that it currently has more than 30 percent market share of software sales in the high definition market, selling more high definition product and releasing more titles than any other studio.

As another testament to Warner’s support for both high definition formats, the studio has developed a hybrid disc technology that features the HD DVD version on one side of the disc and the Blu-ray Disc on the reverse. The hybrid disc, called Total HD, was first unveiled at the Consumer Electronics Show 2007. However, complications arose, pushing the release of Total HD discs to early 2008.

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This is
By jtvang125 on 8/8/2007 10:03:15 AM , Rating: 3
This is madness!

I don't get why they won't disclose the amount sold for each format. Also the 250k total for both format probably is only a few percent compared the amount of 300 dvd sales.




RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 10:08:48 AM , Rating: 3
whatever .. 250k sales for one movie, in such a short period of time is pretty good. I bet Toshiba has only sold about that many players, and this can only do good for the advancement of the HD format. More players sold + more movies sold = cheaper movies for me :)


RE: This is
By 16nm on 8/8/2007 10:28:20 AM , Rating: 2
No, I agree with jtvang125 on this one. It's disappointing that Warner will not break it down by format. Then once they have their Total HD discs in circulation, it will be impossible to know.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
It's also interesting to note that no mention of DVD sales have been mentioned. I suspect for fear of how much it would show DVD is still king.


RE: This is
By deeznuts on 8/8/2007 12:56:36 PM , Rating: 2
Dude that argument is so freaking tired man, let it go. When DVD came out VHS was king, that didn't stop DVD did it?

Hi Def disks are being adopted faster than DVD was.


RE: This is
By Oregonian2 on 8/8/2007 1:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
That argument is "freaking tired" I suspect because you don't have an answer to it.

ALL tv's could use a DVD player when they came out, HD players are useless on the vast majority of currently used TV's (yes, can be used on a SD set, but pointless). I'd be surprised if hi-def DVDs are coming on faster (discounting for PS3 sales which weren't really purchases of the hidef format). Especially when one can't currently record using hi-def TV recorders. Something I suspect they may never allow, let alone have (HD recordable to optical disk off of cable/DirecTV?). A biggie missing thing in my book, in addition to not being useful on most tv sets. Hi-def also costs ten times as much to upgrade (TV set has to be upgraded too, and they're not cheap -- and a lot of the world can't afford such things, I think I read that CRT TV sets still are the most popular world-wide even if not in the more economically advanced countries).


RE: This is
By afkrotch on 8/8/2007 3:00:40 PM , Rating: 1
Umm...ya, but for large sized TVs, which do you think probably reigns supreme? Shoot, I don't think I've seen a 40+ inch TV that wasn't HDTV nowadays.

Course, even CRT TVs come in HD now. I've been looking at a Sansui 30" CRT HDTV and Samsung 32" CRT HDTV. I'm going for picture, not size.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 5:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
If you're talking new TV sales, then yes I'd agree with you.

If you're talking about what the majority of American homes have as a big screen TV, it's probably split 50-50 between large screen HDTVs and large screen SDTVs by now. I'm thinking HDTVs will surpass SDTVs in homes by the holidays, if not sooner.

The point being is that not everyone would benefit from simply buying a HD player. Nintendo is making a killing off the Wii and part of that is they're playing to a still large consumer base that is being neglected. For about half of American households, a HD player purchase will only make sense if they also go out and buy a HDTV.


RE: This is
By Oregonian2 on 8/8/2007 6:48:28 PM , Rating: 2
Most people aren't using sets they bought in the last year. Most sets are older than that. Much older.


RE: This is
By jacarte8 on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: This is
By Oregonian2 on 8/8/2007 6:46:40 PM , Rating: 2
That means those companies cranking out HDTV sets are in big trouble this coming year seeing as how nearly everybody in the world already has one. Who is going to buy their equipment? What's going to happen to all the Circuit City, Best Buy, and the Japanese, Australian, Singaporian, Vietnamese, Indian, Togo'ian, Sudanese, Chinese, Mongolian, Pakastani, Fiji'ian, etc TV selling employees? They'll all be out of work with no more big TV's to sell -- everybody but the poor has one already.

But then I guess we're poor too (my wife's a Doctor) our main TV is still an old tube based SD Sony XBR set connected up to DirecTV.

Also means the U.S. Government plan to provide digital converters for SD TV's can be cancelled, there's nobody that needs them.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 5:12:10 PM , Rating: 2
Very good point.


RE: This is
By Jcruiser89 on 8/9/2007 3:46:08 PM , Rating: 2
Not all TV's could use DVD players .... They still had to have composite input, witch a lot didn't have.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 2:52:57 PM , Rating: 2
So fast the combined total disc sales of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have recently exceed that of VHS. :)

And don't forget that only about 1% of all HDTV owners have a HD player.

Fast indeed.


RE: This is
By fenderkb76 on 8/8/2007 5:18:07 PM , Rating: 2
Given their current situation as a somewhat "standard neutral" company, there's no way they want to push for one or the other. By breaking down the numbers between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, they would allow one format to gain a little traction over the other. As it stands, they can profit from both. I believe they are fence sitting now so they can jump on the winner once it's obvious, or they can just keep producing both in hopes of a cost-effective dual format player. Right now, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are both presumably improving their bottom line.


RE: This is
By FITCamaro on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: This is
By Murst on 8/8/2007 11:26:17 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
HD-DVD has sold about 3-4 movies per player not counting giveaways. Blu-ray hasn't even sold 1 movie per player.


quote:
Toshiba has sold far more than 250,000 HD-DVD players. Try over 1 million. Far more than standalone blu-ray players that have been sold.


Do you realize how stupid it makes you sound when you make such statements?

If you're not going to count standalone players when comparing hardware sales, then you should not count them when comparing how many movies are sold per unit (in which case, blue-ray would be beating HD). However, if you want to compare movies per unit and count the Playstation3 as a unit, then you should include PS3 in total hardware sales, in which case Blue Ray is winning again.

You can't just pick the statistics that are most supportive to your argument and expect people to take anything you say seriously.


RE: This is
By Murst on 8/8/2007 11:28:19 AM , Rating: 2
Err.. my post above should say: If you're not going to count PS3s when comparing hardware sales...


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 11:38:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can't just pick the statistics that are most supportive to your argument and expect people to take anything you say seriously.


and how does counting ps3's with standalone players not do the exact same thing? At least with standalone players you know what the user bought it for.

Ill say it before and ill say it again, if you can give me some sort of proof that more than say 1.5-10 ps3 owners have bought at least 1 movie other than what came with the console, then i will believe you, otherwise i look at real numbers that i know are correct. Standalone players are bought to watch movies, PS3's are bought for games, with the ability to play movies. Theres a big difference, or we might as well start making comments such as 'EVERYONE WHO OWNS A TV IS WATCHING PAY PER VIEW!'


RE: This is
By Murst on 8/8/2007 12:14:33 PM , Rating: 3
I certainly would not disagree with you about PS3 owners not buying as many blu-ray movies as HD-DVD standalone player owners (I have no data to back that up either way). However, you were not counting PS3s as a player for your player statistic, but you were counting PS3s when it came to movies per unit. You can't have it both ways.


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 12:30:05 PM , Rating: 2
What statistic? i never game any numbers, all i am saying is to count every ps3 as a used BD device is just plain wrong. With over 3 million ps3's sold, sony has only sold a little over 1 million BD movies. So even if you dont take into account the sales of standalone BD players, a maximum of 1-3 ps3 owners have actually bought a BD movie, plain and simple. Now if you take into account how many discs were bought for standalone bd players, that number will fall even further.

I am not trying to have it both ways, but everytime sony comes back and says 'we are the clear winners because we have sold more ps3's which include a BD player' it makes me want to side with HD-DVD everytime. At least their numbers are a bit more realistic, even though we all know movie sales are about even.


RE: This is
By deeznuts on 8/8/2007 1:03:09 PM , Rating: 4
omnicronx, I think he was referring to FITCamaro's statistic. Counting every ps3 as a used BD device to declare BD dominance is incorrect, as you say. But to discount the PS3 completely as the HD DVD camp does, is wrong too.

You take all players, standalone or not, and multiply them by attach rate. The BD camp will have a lower attach rate since not everyone buys a PS3 for watching blu-ray movies. But the sheer number of PS3's out there (compared to HD DVD players, not the Wii guys ;) provide BD Media a sales advantage. To the tune of 60% or more.

Yeah I agree about the breakdown of HD DVD vs. BD would have been very interesting indeed, this place would erupt!


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:22:33 PM , Rating: 2
You could take the approach of comparing the number of XBox 360 drives purchased against all XBox 360s purchased to get a rough estimate of possibly getting an idea of just how many PS3 owners are using their machines as dedicated movie players. It's a rough warm fuzzy though.

But this would also not account for the bored gamers who take Sony up on their $15 off coupon offers that came with the PS3.

I agree with you on that Sony has intentionally blurred the lines on this. But you can get a rough guesstimation with the above approach.


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 12:37:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You could take the approach of comparing the number of XBox 360 drives purchased against all XBox 360s purchased to get a rough estimate of possibly getting an idea of just how many PS3 owners are using their machines as dedicated movie players. It's a rough warm fuzzy though.

But once again, you really cant. First off, microsoft has only sold 200,000 HD-DVD player addons, so how much this can skew things in the first place is much less than that of the ps3. Second, once again this addon player is bought for one purpose, to play HD-DVDs, so one could argue that, everyone who buys an hd-dvd addon will buy a HD-DVD movie, the same can not be said for the ps3, which comes with blueray. So you can not really even use this as a rough estimate, as in my mind 360 hddvd addon roughly compares apples to apples with a standalone player, not a ps3.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:49:42 PM , Rating: 2
This is only to give you a warm fuzzy on how many PS3 owners MIGHT be using their consoles as dedicated movie players. It's based on the ASSUMPTION that the demand for Blu-Ray on the PS3 would be ROUGHLY similar to that of HD-DVD of the XBox 360.

Total HD-DVD drives sold versus total XBox 360s is still ridiculously small. But again, you're not going to get an exact number and this rough estimate will not account for curious PS3 owners who buy a disc but don't plan on using their console as a dedicated player. That's why I'm saying this MIGHT get you in the ballpark, but it's just for guessing purposes.

Do you have any reason to believe the demand for Blu-Ray is more or less than that of HD-DVD?


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 1:05:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you have any reason to believe the demand for Blu-Ray is more or less than that of HD-DVD?

No i don't, the demand is pretty much the same, this is a given considering the very small difference in total movie sales. that said..
quote:
It's based on the ASSUMPTION that the demand for Blu-Ray on the PS3 would be ROUGHLY similar to that of HD-DVD of the XBox 360.

How can you make that assumption though? i just told you only 200,000 hddvd addons have been sold, and about 12 million Xbox 360's have been sold, by your logic this would leave me to believe that 1 in 60 xbox 360 users use their console as an HD-DVD player.

Of course the fact that the BD player comes with the ps3 totally changes things, but i think i get my point across. HDDVD addons are bought to watch HD-DVD's whereas ps3s are not, and i wouldnt be surprised if the numbers are closer to 1:5(or less) hd movies bought per ps3 console, compared to 1:1 hd movies bought per hd-dvd 360 addon.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 1:22:38 PM , Rating: 2
LOL.

Okay in the first quote you've basically agreed with me and said the demand is roughly the same between the two formats. Then immediately use another quote to contradict yourself to question me as to how I can assume the demand is the same when you just agreed with me using the first quote.

If you're questioning me on the second quote, you're also questioning yourself. :)

Using your numbers on HD-DVD drives sold (I don't know, but I'll humor your figures), you're telling me that the demand for HD-DVD in the XBox 360 community is a whopping 1.7% (rounded up).

Now I'm assuming you won't disagree with me right after agreeing with me to the relative demand of both formats, I will now apply this 1.7% towards that of all PS3s sold to roughly come to a guesstimation of just how many PS3s MIGHT be used as dedicated players (on the assumption the relative demand is about the same as that of HD-DVD).

From what I last recall, there were 1.4 million PS3s sold. Let's round that up to 2 million since it's old news. That means out of roughly 2 million PS3s, only about 33,333 PS3s are being used as dedicated movie players based on the assumption that the relative demand is the same as that in the XBox 360 community (you need to realize that the XBox 360 community is much larger which is why I'm going with percentages).

Now that being said, you say you disagree but you don't really say or show why you can logically disagree.

Here's another way to look at it.

Where we agree:

1. We both know these HD-DVD drives can only be used for playing movies.

2. You can measure demand for HD-DVD within the XBox 360 community strictly by observing the number of add on drives sold vs. total number of XBox 360s sold. Obtaining a percentage of this shows in B&W the relative demand with respect to the XBox 360 population.

3. We don't know for sure just how many PS3 owners use their PS3s as dedicated movie players.

4. The format war is a dead heat (from our other posts) thus implying that demand may also be fairly equal between the two formats (or so I think).

Where we disagree:

1. I surmise that if you can roughly conclude that we agree on 4, then I can use the percentage obtained from 2 above and apply it to 3 since the level of proportional demand is roughly the same. (You agreed with me on the demand but then questioned me and consquently yourself on just how we can do that).

2. You believe that although demand is roughly the same, that you cannot use the demand for HD-DVD in the XBox 360 community as a metric for demand for Blu-Ray in the PS3 community. You cite that the demand for Blu-Ray is unknown within the PS3 community, but you believe the demand between the two formats is roughly the same (1.7% within the XBox 360 community).

Just keep in mind, this is not meant to be an exact science here. It's only to give you a warm fuzzy.


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 1:42:23 PM , Rating: 2
heh, ok we do agree with almost everything but i think you are a bit confused when it comes to my answers to #3, #4

I said the demand for movies is the roughly the same, not player demand. I have already outlined how sony potentially has 3 times the amount of players sold than toshiba's HD-DVD camp.

So to sum it up for #3&4: We do not know for sure how many ps3's are being used, but one can deduce from the amount of movies sold, they're is a max demand of 1 movie bought per 3 ps3 sold(ps3 has sold a little more than 3 million units, not 2)
Whereas compare to the HD-DVD camp, they are very close to amount of standalone players + HDDVD addon sold, vs how many movies have been sold. That said, one could also deduce that there is more demand for HD-DVD movies than for blueray movies even though BD has more movies sold, and better releases in the past 6 months.

As for your 1.7%, my whole post was pointing out how you can not use that number, all ps3's have a bd player, in order for this % to mean anything all 360's would need to have a HD-DVD player. I know for a fact not many people use their ps3 as an HD player, but at the same time, i can assure you more than 2% of BD owners use their ps3 as a player. I think the number lies closer to 20%


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 2:50:51 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, maybe that's my misunderstanding.... I'm trying to make a rough guess for the number of PS3s being used to play Blu-Ray movies like the HD-DVD add on drives by basing player sales in one community and applying it in another. No more, no less. The assumption is the demand is about equal on both sides, but it's an assumption.

Sony EASILY has superior numbers than Toshiba in this format war. And just like in A Bug's Life, the PS3 owners don't seem to know that all it takes is every PS3 owner to go out and buy a movie on the same week. Total Annhiliation.

To sum it up, I am simply assuming that the demand for Blu-Ray within the PS3 community is the same as that for HD-DVD in the XBox 360 community using your figures which came to 1.7% of all XBox 360 owners and 1.7% of all PS3 owners.

I'm not even looking at standalone players.... just trying to get a warm fuzzy on how many PS3s are being used in the same fashion as XBox 360s for HD-DVD.... but there's another caveat.... not all of those HD-DVD drives are used on a XBox 360. As I understand it, you can use these drives on a Windows PC.

My 1.7% is your 1.7%. It's from the numbers you provided. If you don't agree with 1.7%, then you're not agreeing with yourself. AGAIN. :)

I UNDERSTAND that all PS3s have a BD player. And no, not all XBox 360s do not need to have a HD-DVD player. You simply do not understand what I'm trying to make a rough guess on. You're basically saying that no you cannot establish that PS3s have the same demand in Blu-Ray as XBox 360 owners have in HD-DVD. You agree and then you disagree with yourself. :)

As for your 20% which you can assure me of, I don't know how you can get to that number, but you've basically just told me the rough demand for Blu-Ray within the PS3 community is rougly more than ten times that of HD-DVD.


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 3:18:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As for your 20% which you can assure me of, I don't know how you can get to that number, but you've basically just told me the rough demand for Blu-Ray within the PS3 community is rougly more than ten times that of HD-DVD.

My 20% is a rough estimate of around 1 million bd movies sold, 3 million ps3's sold, and an unknown number of standalone bd players sold, probably around 300-400k. Speculating BD standalone owners will buy atleast 1 movie, that leaves the ps3 with around 600-700k. 700k/3mil = 20%

My other estimate of 1:60 was to discredit the fact you compared the two in the first place. One is a standalone player, the other comes with the console, one is only bought to watch HD-DVDs, the other is to game/watch BD movies.
So when it comes down to it you are right, there is 10x more demand within the ps3 market for high def movies, but it still doesn't change the fact a maximum of 1/5 BD PS3's should be counted towards total player sales, Meaning sales for both movies and players are about on par for both systems.

(where as HD-DVD addons should be counted as they are only used for purpose of movies)


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 3:49:22 PM , Rating: 2
I would have to disagree with you believing that people who go out and buy a standalone Blu-Ray player would average 1 disc per player. I would surmise that standalone Blu-Ray player owners would average AT LEAST 3 or more movies per player. Just like the HD-DVD crowd.

Furthermore, you are also assuming that Blu-Ray movies have as much proportional demand within the PS3 community as that of the standalone Blu-Ray community.

What you are discrediting is that you can apply the proportional demand in one community and use that proportional demand in the other in order to gauge roughly how many PS3 owners really use their consoles for playing movies.

If PS3 sales for exclusively playing Blu-Ray movies on par, then the 1.7% is what you'd use (which is using your figures).

Your math is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more fuzzier than my approach. But we can agree to disagree. My only intention was to guess how many in the PS3 community are using their consoles like those in the XBox 360 community.

You don't actually point out why I cannot use the "demand factor" for HD-DVD add on drives to gauge how much demand there is for Blu-Ray. I think you're really over-analyzing what I'm using this for and not understanding that there's probably no more PROPORTIONAL demand within the PS3 community as there is in the XBox 360 community. We can agree to disagree. You believe the demand is 10x higher with PS3 people while I believe the demand is ROUGHLY the same on both sides.

In the end, most gamers really aren't watching as many HD movies as you seem to believe they are.


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 3:58:26 PM , Rating: 2
I dont even know what im arguing anymore, you seem to be arguing
quote:
My only intention was to guess how many in the PS3 community are using their consoles like those in the XBox 360 community.

and i seem to be arguing that all ps3's should not be included in BD player sales...
quote:
In the end, most gamers really aren't watching as many HD movies as you seem to believe they are.

Man i must have been confused before, because this is what i was trying to get at haha. I was only giving the 20% so that sony fanboys out there would not come in and start talking nonsense, i was being conservative with my numbers and you are probably right, its probably more like 2-3 sales per standalone BD player.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 5:11:05 PM , Rating: 2
I was starting to get confused myself because we seemed to be mostly agreeing but then starkly disagreeing over one slight difference. :)


RE: This is
By sviola on 8/8/2007 2:04:55 PM , Rating: 2
Altough your points are well put, I have to disagree on the % of PS3 owners that will be watching movies. Here is why:

1 - Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on is very different in nature than the PS3 blue-ray. The first is bought if someone wants to watch movies. The second comes with the console. What does this mean? Means that if someone wants to watch a movie on the PS3, all he has to do is buy or rent the movie. In the Xbox 360, it mean going out and buying a $200 add-on. Eventough I don't think adding the BD to PS3 was a great idea, it does make it easier for owner to be inclined to buy a bd movie.

2 - Consider the number of fan boys that bragged about Blue-ray on PS3, they were the most buyers in the launch (on stores or on e-bay, it doesn't matter). Most of them still bragg about having BD on the console, so it's more reasonable to think they would have a bigger chance of using it as a player as well.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 2:57:07 PM , Rating: 2
1. Understood, but at what extra premium did the PS3 cost for that integrated feature? The point is unless you want to insist that all PS3 owners are using their PS3s as dedicated movie players on a REGULAR basis, how do you figure out roughly speaking how many PS3 owners are doing so? You're assuming the demand is high. I'm not so certain if that's really true.

2. Probably true. And they represent how much of the regular Blu-Ray movie watching PS3 population?


RE: This is
By dubldwn on 8/8/2007 2:48:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
this is not meant to be an exact science here. It's only to give you a warm fuzzy.

I don't think warm fuzzy means what you think it means.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:05:32 PM , Rating: 2
The below is quote to a post I made on the page covering Toshiba announcing a 3rd Generation series of HD-DVD players.

quote:
Well if Blu-Ray is doing THAT well, there’s no reason why Samsung or LG who used to be Blu-Ray only supporters would even bother with making a combo player. Arstechnica a while back pointed out that “The PS3 has no games in the top twenty list for June, nor the top ten for the first half of the year.” http://tinyurl.com/yty5g6 It’s also no surprise that the PS3 has been in last place for console sales. The Nintedo software sales are showing just how well the hardware sales drives the software.

Blu-Ray supporters heavily cite the huge number of Blu-Ray discs sold. But I haven’t seen anybody put this into perspective. For the most part, I believe Sony is enjoying Blu-Ray sales much like Nintendo is for software sales but for different reasons.

Every time Toshiba declares a victory citing standalone players sold, Sony’s rebuttal has been to include their PS3 consoles as well. At last count (and at Sony’s insistence) there were 1.5 million Blu-Ray players sold. At around that time, they reached selling 1 million discs. That’s less than one disc per player.

Toshiba at that same time pointed out that they were only 2,000 discs behind Blu-Ray and their installed base was around 300,000 players. That’s over 3 discs per player.

So how is it that Blu-Ray disc sales are doing so well? It seems when you have 1.4 million BORED gamers because there are not that many games worth playing that those $15 coupons Sony bundled with their PS3s seem to be spurring those sales. Blu-Ray sales seem to be doing “okay” so long as there are no great PS3 games out.

I think Sony has seen what price cuts did for Toshiba and they realize when the good games start coming out (and they will) that those same gamers who are propping their disc sales will more than likely drop their interest in Blu-Ray movies due to cost and replay value. For those two reasons, Sony probably dropped their entry-level Blu-Ray player before launch in order to get more stand alone players in people’s hands. They know ultimately the hardware is going to drive this format war.

That being said, this format war is ridiculously small. I think I recall reading that the DVD version of Borat alone has sold more copies than all HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs sold combined and that only 1% of all HDTV owners actually have a HD player for their TVs.


However way either side wants to slice and dice things, it's a small war. But from the marketing spin, you'd swear everyone owns one HD format or the other.


RE: This is
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 12:18:55 PM , Rating: 2
Very good post, of a quote that is.. but this quote only seems to prove that most ps3 users still do not use their players?
And that the format war is pretty much dead even, as i previously thought.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:27:22 PM , Rating: 2
At least it's a quote of what I said before. :) I thought it was relevent to put it here since people are already spinning numbers and not putting things into context.

You and I are on the same sheet of music. I totally agree that for now, the format war is pretty much "balanced" due to both sides touting legitimate "victories" that seem to oppose the other format's claim to victory.

And yes, the purpose of the quote was to illustrate that each side cherry picks their facts. If you want to go with Sony's insistance that you should count every PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, then their disc sales do not really look that great.


RE: This is
By deeznuts on 8/8/2007 1:21:33 PM , Rating: 2
Regarding why Samsung or LG who used to be BD only supporters would make a combo player. Well duh. The two parts of Blu-ray that are doing relatively well, media sales and PS3 (leave the gaming part of it out of this argument for now, I know they're losing to MS and Nintendo, we're just talking about the BD player) Samsung and LG don't have a part of. They don't make the PS3, and they don't have any movie studios. A lot of people who were in the market for a BD player were advised to buy a PS3. People have touted it's superior a/v capabilities (due to constantly upgraded firmware and cell processor) all for $500/600. This includes, SACD, CD, DVD and BD playing. As well as media streaming. No standalone player can even match this, esp. for that price.

In your discussion of sales, you make the same mistake a lot of people do, equating Blu-Ray with Sony. Go to their site, sony is just one of several dozen players. Everyone knows the attach rate for the PS3 is low, duh, it's a gaming machine.

Less than one disc sold per 5-10 million (they are currently at 4.5M sold worldwide, expect a bump when good games come out, 10M is a high end estimation) is more than 3 discs sold for 600,000 (doubling HD DVD's sales you quoted).

Regarding when the good games come out, first, not everyone plays games every waking minute, they'll still watch movies. Second, more than one person in the house most likely, movies will still be watched (plus parents who probably paid for it for their kids had their ulterior motive, to use it as a BD when kid isn't playing). Third, the installed base just keeps growing.

PS3 sales have hovered about 100K in the US, maybe 200K last month because of the price drop. In 3-4 months thats more than all of HD DVD sales since inception.

No matter how you slice it, even if PS3 comes in last place (Europe and Japan will help PS3 come in second, MS has only sold 700K in it's latest fiscal quarter, just my guess) that's tens of millions of BD players. It's just too many to overcome.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 2:04:26 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know about LG, but Samsung is a movie studio (at least in Korea).

As for PS3 sales doing well, it depends on in what context you want to state your case. Sony only touts the PS3 when the discussion revolves around Blu-Ray disc sales. Not when you're talking game consoles.

You are correct that the attach rates for Blu-Ray are very low when you factor in the PS3. This is at Sony's insistance, but only when explaining sheer number of disc sales. Sony does not wish to use PS3 numbers when looking at attach rates, so they are cherry picking where and when they want to use those numbers.

For $250, I think HD-DVD has "matched" the most significant capabilities of the PS3 excluding the games and SACD (as though SACD is really relevent). It's all relative to how much you want to pay for what you WANT to get. Not everyone wants to pay more than $200 for a movie player no matter how much value you put into something to jack the price up further.

The less than one disc sold for Blu-Ray was using the Blu-Ray's camp's numbers for here in the U.S. which was 1.5 million at the time I got the news. I do not know what the worldwide disc sales are with respect to world wide player sales. Nevertheless, I suspect when the good games come out, I agree that the PS3 sales will probably jump in conjunction with agressive pricing. But I don't think most gamers will sit there thinking about which will bring more value to them. A $25 to $30 movie for 2 hours or a $60 game for 30+ hours? Which has more bang for the buck?

However way you look at it, Blu-Ray sales are being driven by the PS3 crowd. What do most of these people WANT to use the PS3 for? And I agree with you that no one plays games every waking moment. But people are much more price sensitive that you give them credit for. Sony knew this by dropping prices of their entry level stand alone player before it launched. In addition, I question what the average age group is for the primary user of a PS3 is vs. that of stand alone players. I suspect that that average age of the primary PS3 owner is in the teens to late 20s (regardless of who paid for it). I think the average age of standalone player owners is much higher. Why is this important? Deeper pockets which translates into buying movies and less concern for replay value. I believe older customers lean towards the stand alone players and they are less likely to buy games and more likely to buy more movies. That being said, only 1% of all HDTV owners actually have a HD player (Blu-Ray and HD-DVD combined).

I also agree with you that the installed base does keep growing... for everyone. Sony painfully knows this with Nintendo and how the hardware ultimately drives the software. If the PS3 is THAT much of a magnet for people wanting to play Blu-Ray movies, why bother dropping the MSRP for their entry level player before it launched? According to you, everyone is buying up PS3s left and right to play Blu-Ray. The reason why Sony lowered their pricing is because it was a knee jerk reaction to what they saw Toshiba accomplish in their fire sale. If we both agree hardware drives the software and according to your everyone would rather buy the PS3, then this move was a loss in profits for them when they did not have to do such a move.... unless standalone players is more significant than you give credit for.

I agree with you on the sheer number of PS3s having a big impact in disc sales... this is why I mentioned the lack of good games on the PS3 has played into Blu-Ray's favor for disc sales. I believe it explains how Blu-Ray disc sales are doing so "well" even though Toshiba has better standalone player sales. Granted, I realize you're saying that the PS3 is such a great value that people would prefer to buy a PS3 over that of a standalone player. But then again, you're also assuming that there is a huge demand for the HD format when only 1% of all HD TV Owners are still sitting on the fence. Not to mention, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sales combined have recently exceeded that of VHS. Those big PS3 numbers you mentioned only seem to take 50% of the cake in exceeding VHS sales.

Either way, this is all a small war. DVD is still king. Both Sony and Toshiba would have you believe their sales numbers are most significant (even though they just surpassed VHS sales).

I think it's more important to see how things pan out when HDTV owner adoption rates start approaching 10% or more. Otherwise, this victory claim on either side is making a mountain out of a mole hill.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 3:01:48 PM , Rating: 2
Slight correction. Meant to say 99%

quote:
But then again, you're also assuming that there is a huge demand for the HD format when only 1% of all HD TV Owners are still sitting on the fence.


RE: This is
By steven975 on 8/8/2007 5:35:50 PM , Rating: 2
"In your discussion of sales, you make the same mistake a lot of people do, equating Blu-Ray with Sony. Go to their site, sony is just one of several dozen players. "

That's because Blu-Ray is Sony's baby. All the other players on that list are Johnny-come-latelys to the whole party. They didn't develop the format, that's for darn sure. They either paid licenses to use the tech or agreed to distribute it in their PCs...that's the extent of their involvement.


RE: This is
By IceTron on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: This is
By Jimmybones on 8/8/2007 11:45:44 AM , Rating: 2
I agree, I can't understand why they don't show a breakdown of the SKUs based on HD format.

We can try and use the always random Amazon ratings.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/dvd/

Blu-Ray is still hanging out at number 4. While the HD DVD has fallen off the top 10 chart to number 11.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:10:37 PM , Rating: 2
I'm more interested in how both formats compare to DVD which is mysteriously absent from this press release info.

Also on a completely unscientific observation, I have noted both at Wal-Mart and Circuit City, there were more Blu-Ray versions of 300 left on the shelves than HD-DVD.

At my local Wal-Mart, I noted 14 Blu-Rays vs. 4 HD-DVDs.

At my local Circuit City, I noted 9 Blu-Rays vs. 3 HD-DVDs.

Anyone else make a similar or different observation?


RE: This is
By Anh Huynh on 8/8/2007 1:28:32 PM , Rating: 2
I drove around for 3 hours going from store to store (Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, the Mall) to find a copy of 300 on HD DVD. I ended up buying the last copy they had at Walmart. Every store had plenty of BD copies as well.


RE: This is
By seeker353 on 8/8/2007 9:41:41 PM , Rating: 2
I've had the exact opposite experience. My local Walmart had about 6 copies of the HD DVD version, no Blu-ray. The clerk told me that the blu-ray sold out in the first 30 min. Fred Meyer and Sears were also sold out of Blu-ray. (I'm living in Fairbanks, Alaska, and we don't have any Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, etc.)


RE: This is
By Gastrian on 8/8/2007 12:32:09 PM , Rating: 2
They aren't disclosing figures for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray seperately as that is counter productive.

Warner aren't pushing a HD format they are pushing HD and all the the seperate figures per format do is confuse less interested customers and put them off buying HD equipment which means less overall disc sales for Warner.

Its the simplest technique taught to sales people; you don't sell the customer the product you sell them the idea. Warner want people to want Hi-Def, details such as Blu-Ray and HDDVD formats just get in the way. Once the customer is sold on the idea of Hi-Def and wants to buy the equipment then you give them details about the different formats to help them with their route through Hi-Def.


RE: This is
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:36:09 PM , Rating: 2
Rest assured that both the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray camps will pay Nielsen for this info and whoever wins this battle, will announce it to the world.

This omission of the facts will be short-lived.


RE: This is
By monstr on 8/8/2007 1:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
Although I could not find a breakdown of sales of "300" in each format, I did find this. http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/ is a site which bases sales ranks from www.amazon.com. The sales rank for "300" on Blu-Ray was at 5, while the sales rank for "300" on HDDVD was 11 as of 10:00am on August 8th.


RE: This is
By monstr on 8/8/2007 1:33:39 PM , Rating: 2
Although I could not find a breakdown of sales of "300" in each format, I did find this. http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/ is a site which bases sales ranks from amazon.com. The sales rank for "300" on Blu-Ray was at 5, while the sales rank for "300" on HDDVD was 11 as of 10:00am on August 8th.


RE: This is
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 8/8/2007 8:01:44 PM , Rating: 2
http://blogs.usatoday.com/technologylive/2007/08/b...

Blu-ray continues to outpace HD DVD

The stylistic Spartan battle film 300 has charged to the fastest sales start of any high-def video disc release yet, according to Warner Home Video. Consumers have purchased more than 250,000 copies of the film in the competing Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats since its release July 31. That far surpasses the previous hot seller, also from Warner, The Departed, which took three months to sell 100,000 copies.

So far, the Blu-ray Disc version of 300 is outselling the HD DVD version, 65% to 35%. According to Home Media Research, that mirrors the overall sales pattern this year (Jan-June), with Blu-ray accounting for 67% and 33% for HD DVD,.

Warner releases movies on both of the competing formats. Sony, Disney and Fox only support Blu-ray, while Universal exclusively supports HD DVD.

The Spider-Man films (Oct. 30) and Pirates of the Caribbean: At Worlds End (Dec. 4) are coming to Blu-ray later this year. Overall, released titles on Blu-ray outnumber HD DVD roughly 2-to-1. "Blu-ray tips the scales in its favor this holiday season," says Peter Bracke, editor-in-chief, High Def Digest. "It's going to be tough for HD DVD to keep pace."

By Mike Snider

Posted at 09:00 AM/ET, August 08, 2007 in Gadgets


RE: This is
By bplewis24 on 8/9/2007 1:34:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So far, the Blu-ray Disc version of 300 is outselling the HD DVD version, 65% to 35%. According to Home Media Research, that mirrors the overall sales pattern this year (Jan-June), with Blu-ray accounting for 67% and 33% for HD DVD.


http://blogs.usatoday.com/technologylive/2007/08/b...

Brandon


RE: This is
By bkm32 on 8/9/2007 12:37:28 PM , Rating: 2
Here you go, jtvang125. Not really the best estimate but at least they're numbers.

quote:
On the high-definition disc charts, "300" was the top seller on the Blu-ray Disc and the HD DVD charts. The Blu-ray Disc version outsold the HD DVD edition by a margin of nearly 2-to-1 .

Reuters/Hollywood Reporter


And link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070809/wr_nm/video_dc...


totalstupidity?
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 10:02:57 AM , Rating: 2
why would you want to buy a dual release movie. Right now either you have a HD DVD player, or a BD player.. not both.. and lets face it people, dual format players are the future, not discs you have to pay twice the price for. And its not exactly like people are going to go flock to buy HDDVD-BD releases just so they can watch it at their friends house, who happens to have a different format than you.




RE: totalstupidity?
By mdogs444 on 8/8/2007 10:08:40 AM , Rating: 2
True, doesnt seem to make much sense. However, i guess its a fool proof purchase to know that it will always be usable.

I wouldn't gamle on BD, HD, or dual format players right now. To be honest, so many different factors, I just couldnt care less to have any of them. Plus, i prefer to make copies and burn my own movies on $30 DVDRW.


RE: totalstupidity?
By invidious on 8/8/2007 10:36:08 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
...dual format players are the future, not discs you have to pay twice the price for.


CD's cost about 10 cents and sell for $10, DVDs cost about a quarter and sell for $15. Production cost has almost no affect on end user cost when it comes to digital media. It is priced purely based on demand, whatever people are willing to pay is what it will cost.


RE: totalstupidity?
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 10:57:21 AM , Rating: 1
I am sure the CD media itself costs 10 cents.. but it in no way costs 10 cents per CD or 15 cents per DVD when you take into account production costs, like equipement, r&d, etc..

Not saying they don't jack up the price 30x more than what they are worth.. but to say every dvd made is only worth 15 cents, is very closed minded..

for example: the cost of sugar is next to nothing, but after plantation, processing costs, and shipping, sugar doesn't end up so cheap does it.. this is the way the world turns so get used to it ;)


RE: totalstupidity?
By Keeir on 8/8/2007 11:37:48 AM , Rating: 2
I think that was the point

if a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD disc costs 1 dollars and a Dual-Layer Disc costs 5 dollars, end cost difference for the consumer is 25 dollars to 30 dollars (not 25 dollars to 50 dollars as the Original Poster suggested)


RE: totalstupidity?
By KentState on 8/8/2007 1:06:09 PM , Rating: 2
No, factoring in all of that a cd or dvd is probably that cheap. Right now studios can order batches of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray media at around 90 cents to 1.50 depending on capacity of the media.


RE: totalstupidity?
By bangmal on 8/8/2007 10:43:37 AM , Rating: 2
why? because the company can keep customers from both sides in the most economically way. It is smart move acually.


RE: totalstupidity?
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 11:28:19 AM , Rating: 1
Um if the goal is to keep customers from both sides, meaning they have either a BD player or an HDDVD player, then why would they need a dual format disc the first place. Warner already releases both BD and HDDVD versions, if you only owned one of the players, why would you need both?
quote:
most economically way

If by that you mean , increasing production costs for warner and consumer costs at the same time, while having to create a process that can create both hddvd and bd content on one disc is a smart move economically, i don't know what a bad move is.

If it costs them more, and costs you more, and really serves no purpose other than future proofing a spec that will never be decided upon anyways.. i just do not see the point, but if others want to waste their money.. im all for it ;) not my paycheck!


RE: totalstupidity?
By masher2 (blog) on 8/8/2007 11:37:04 AM , Rating: 5
You're forgetting one part of the equation. A dual-format disc costs more to produce, but less to stock and ship. It means half the SKUs to track and maintain, less shelf space at the retailer end, and less inventory to carry. Those costs outweigh the extra production costs.

You'd think that would mean a cheaper disc to the consumer....and eventually, it will, I'm sure. But for now, the studios intend to charge all the market will bear.


RE: totalstupidity?
By BWAnaheim on 8/8/2007 11:27:15 AM , Rating: 2
The combo disc most likely is a marketing ploy to only have one box in a given store and to be able to maximize the shelf space. I do not know about the likes of Target/BestBuy/Wal-Mart, etc., but in grocery stores, manufacturers essentially buy shelf space. If it is the same in other stores, WB can buy one unit of shelf space and serve two products and user groups. It really is a smart ploy, as long as the cost to the consumer is not excessively over what an individual Blu-Ray or HD-DVD version would be.


RE: totalstupidity?
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:16:54 PM , Rating: 2
Here's another way to look at things. Let's say for the sake of argument, Blu-Ray loses the format war.

I can pretty much guarantee that every Sony HD-DVD player made will support Blu-Ray. Look at SACD. It was an utter failure, but every Sony DVD player supports it.

I'm a fence sitter, but if you really want to get one or the other, I would think Sony would be "safer" simply due to them being stubborn.

Now the only problem you have is not all Blu-Ray players support all features. Samsung's 1st generation Blu-Ray players won't support 50GB Blu-Ray discs and most current Blu-Ray players do not yet support the interactive features that make HD-DVD more appealing to those who prefer that sort of "bling".

Food for thought.


Living Up to the Hype
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 9:59:21 AM , Rating: 4
Now that HD sales have exceeded VHS sales we can now all celebrate that this war is in full swing and proves the hype is real. [ SARCASM ]

http://tinyurl.com/yrsbfk

This only proves just how utterly small the format war has been, but you'd never think that as Joe Consumer. The way past victories have been announced, you'd think everyone and their mother is buying a HD player.




RE: Living Up to the Hype
By omnicronx on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: Living Up to the Hype
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 11:56:15 AM , Rating: 1
The original url was long. You can go to www.tinyurl.com and they can "convert" the long URL to be more compatible for forum postings like this.

The point being is the format war has largely been miniscule.


RE: Living Up to the Hype
By omnicronx on 8/8/2007 11:59:33 AM , Rating: 2
I'm just at work ;) I didn't know exactly what you were posting as you just left a link with no desription.. the name sounds like porn or something and i am in no mood to be getting goatse'd in the office =D good link though ;)


RE: Living Up to the Hype
By Guyver on 8/8/2007 12:06:57 PM , Rating: 2
No problem. I assure you my link is safe. Fortunately for me, I did not look at the other link you referenced. :)


HD-dvd all the way
By xxsk8er101xx on 8/8/2007 1:01:10 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know if this is any indication or not. I went to target and best buy and both stores were sold out of hd-dvd format of 300. Both stores had quite a few copies of 300 in blu-ray format.




RE: HD-dvd all the way
By Timeless on 8/8/2007 3:36:59 PM , Rating: 2
It must depend on where you live, I guess. I went down to 3 different retailers yesterday(Best Buy, Fry's and Wal-mart) and they were out of the Blu-ray version of 300. They all also said that they had some HD-DVD version of the movie stacked in the back if I wanted that instead. They told me to come back tomorrow when they get their next shipment of Blu-ray discs.


Thumb
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 8/8/2007 9:50:25 AM , Rating: 2
That article thumb just gives me chills :)




Am I the only one
By Lightning III on 8/8/2007 10:54:36 AM , Rating: 2
Am I the only one who thought hairless greeks in loincloth's with scottish accents make great softcore gay porn




small typo
By ryedizzel on 8/8/2007 10:57:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Warner was also proud to boast to boast that its home video division has...




PS3 as the only blueray player.
By Final8ty on 8/8/2007 5:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
Some one who has a ps3 will likely use it to watch BD content
and not buy a stand alone until they have the need to record to BD.




300 is awesome
By luhar49 on 8/9/2007 1:07:56 AM , Rating: 2
One reason for high initial sales is that a lot of people(like me) had pre-ordered this movie at Amazon and likes.

There seem to be lots of off topic arguments here about the numbers game..probably a reflection on the technical background of the majority subscribers of Dailytech.

What disappoints me is that few people out here seem to have watched the movie on HD and can give a valid comment about why this movie has:
quote:
set the record for being the fastest and highest-selling high definition title


Thats because this movie is a visual and aural delight on High Definition. People had upgraded to HD equipment to experience stuff like this. It makes your investment worthwhile.

I watched the Blu Ray version and its breathtaking. I am sure HD DVD version is similarly good.

So forget the numbers unless you are a shareholder of any of the companies involved...and enjoy the movie.




By PresidentThomasJefferson on 8/9/2007 4:49:07 AM , Rating: 2
http://blogs.usatoday.com/technologylive/2007/08/b...

Blu-ray continues to outpace HD DVD

The stylistic Spartan battle film 300 has charged to the fastest sales start of any high-def video disc release yet, according to Warner Home Video. Consumers have purchased more than 250,000 copies of the film in the competing Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats since its release July 31. That far surpasses the previous hot seller, also from Warner, The Departed, which took three months to sell 100,000 copies.

So far, the Blu-ray Disc version of 300 is outselling the HD DVD version, 65% to 35%. According to Home Media Research, that mirrors the overall sales pattern this year (Jan-June), with Blu-ray accounting for 67% and 33% for HD DVD,.

Warner releases movies on both of the competing formats. Sony, Disney and Fox only support Blu-ray, while Universal exclusively supports HD DVD.

The Spider-Man films (Oct. 30) and Pirates of the Caribbean: At Worlds End (Dec. 4) are coming to Blu-ray later this year. Overall, released titles on Blu-ray outnumber HD DVD roughly 2-to-1. "Blu-ray tips the scales in its favor this holiday season," says Peter Bracke, editor-in-chief, High Def Digest. "It's going to be tough for HD DVD to keep pace."

By Mike Snider

Posted at 09:00 AM/ET, August 08, 2007 in Gadgets




THIS
By ss284 on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
"If you look at the last five years, if you look at what major innovations have occurred in computing technology, every single one of them came from AMD. Not a single innovation came from Intel." -- AMD CEO Hector Ruiz in 2007

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