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Peter Moore says that the PS3 is "failing" in Japan

When it comes to the current generation of gaming consoles, Microsoft's Xbox 360 is currently in the lead with the most units sold. Microsoft's lead can be attributed to the fact that the Xbox 360 was released a year ahead of its two Japanese rivals.

Microsoft's lead may not last long if the strong performance from Nintendo's Wii is any indication. The Wii has consistently outsold both the Xbox 360 and the PS3 in North America. The console's low price of entry and innovative control scheme has won over many gamers both young and old.

If current sales trends are any indication, the Xbox 360 could soon find itself in a strong second place position worldwide with the Wii taking over the top spot in total units sold. In Japan, however, the Xbox 360 is having a hard time finding an audience.

Microsoft Corporate VP of Interactive Entertainment Peter Moore was asked about the performance of the Xbox 360 in Japan -- where only 122,565 units were sold through the first six months of 2007. Instead of talking about the Xbox 360's weakness in Japan, Moore threw the ball in Sony's court.

"That's probably a better question for Sony who's getting outsold by what, 6-to-1? You can bet that Sony built a long-term business plan about being successful in Japan and that business plan is crumbling," Moore told GameDaily.biz. "I built a business plan [for Japan], but I don't think my expectations in Japan were anything close to what Sony's expectations are. They are failing. They're missing their plan by much more than I'm missing my plan."

Peter Moore is right that the Wii has dominated the PS3 in Japan, but the Xbox 360 hasn’t exactly set hearts ablaze, either. Microsoft has always countered, however, that their sales expectations in Japan have always been set rather low whereas Sony was expecting the PS3 to dominate the sales charts from the beginning.

That being said, Microsoft still has a few tricks up its sleeve to boost sales performance of the Xbox 360 – at least in the United States. The company announced a new HDMI-enabled, Halo 3-themed Xbox 360 at E3 along with new accessories. Microsoft’s Shane Kim has also hinted at price cuts for the Xbox 360 in the coming months. Wedbush Morgan Securities analyst Michael Pachter projected that the prices would fall to $399, $349 and $249 respectively for the Xbox 360 Elite, Premium and Core.



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Japan's Preferences
By SRoode on 7/17/2007 10:44:08 AM , Rating: 5
Japan has always seemed to favor systems that originated from their own country. Seeing the PS3/Wii sales dominate over the 360 should not surprise anyone. I think France is the only other country where the 360 is not in the lead for total sales.




RE: Japan's Preferences
By dome1234 on 7/17/2007 10:54:52 AM , Rating: 5
the current bestest game on 360 is gears and the upcoming big ones is halo3, bioshock, mass effect are all shooters. Japan actually saw sale spikes when blue dragon was released.

different region enjoys different genre. Why don't you try to sell madden to europe?


RE: Japan's Preferences
By FITCamaro on 7/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Japan's Preferences
By Aikouka on 7/17/2007 11:07:11 AM , Rating: 1
Blue Dragon was released in Japan on December 7, 2006 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dragon ).


RE: Japan's Preferences
By christojojo on 7/17/2007 12:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
Blue Dragon is too kiddie for me in the graphics department. I'm 43 years old and playing as a kid just seems.... wrong. It 's a shame since I love the old turn based games, Baldur's Gate, NWN, and my favorite series Fallout. For me the demo made me feel like I was a 43 year old pretending I'm a 5yo trying to be a teenager who is pretending to be an adult, (YUCK).


RE: Japan's Preferences
By aikend on 7/17/2007 1:25:34 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. So you would play the game if it looked different, but at 43 years old the idea of sitting around playing video games that *look* young bothers you?

Me, I say play it if it's fun. But if you really are compelled to live up to some internal perception of what a 43 year old "should" do... doesn't playing video games at all cause guilt and awkwardness?


RE: Japan's Preferences
By christojojo on 7/17/2007 11:46:40 PM , Rating: 2
First, let me apologize for giving my personal opinion.

Second, there is a difference between say, playing football and hopscotch. If a person wants to play it by all means; but (get this) I feel foolish doing it. It doesn't appeal to me and frankly hopscotch hurts my knees.

If, I told you the original EA NHL Hockey was graphically pleasing to me. Would you say that I must be insane because the current state of graphics are so much better? I, still, enjoy that game; while the newer ones bore me. Nostalgia is powerful.

Listen, the graphics hurt the game for me, they are not enjoyable to ME.

Do you remember the old joke;

Patient: Doctor, Doctor it hurts when I tilt my head like this.
Doctor: Well, don't do it then.

All I am saying is that most of us avoid things that we dont like. If I can't state my opinion without getting gigged then gig away.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By bysmitty on 7/17/2007 12:38:38 PM , Rating: 2
Though what you say about different play styles is true, it should also be pointed out that the 360 actually has more RPGs on the market in Japan than both Wii and PS3 right now. I agree with what your saying but I don't think it is the primary factor in the 360s low sales numbers.

...bysmitty


RE: Japan's Preferences
By jconan on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Japan's Preferences
By jconan on 7/18/2007 8:54:10 PM , Rating: 2
I think one of the primary factors why 360s have low sales is that the games available on 360s are already available on the PC. 2nd everyone tends to generalize that Japanese tend to prefer Japanese but that's not the case. The preference is reliability, affordability, ease of use, and the looks/packaging as Japan is known for. For 1 thing the xbox 360 is not reliable if it breaks down continuously even shipping and handling adds up having to have it shipped to get repaired.

On a side note to the main topic "Peter Moore says that the PS3 is failing in Japan" according to Enterbrain Wii has outsold PS3 3:1 and 360 7:1. So PS3 seems to be holding on till they can get some good game releases out to the stores.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By stubeck on 7/17/2007 1:11:25 PM , Rating: 1
Madden is sold in Europe.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By Min Jia on 7/17/2007 10:13:15 PM , Rating: 2
Mass Effect is RPG not shooter, but then again, Japanese only love J-RPG.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By MrDiSante on 7/22/2007 3:32:57 PM , Rating: 2
J-RPG's are utter crap.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By afkrotch on 7/22/2007 11:11:36 PM , Rating: 2
The best RPGs are Japanese. Do you think Square Enix is American?

Square Co was a Japanese company. Enix Corporation was a Japanese company. Enix took over Square Co and now they are Square Enix. Still a Japanese company.

Most of the best RPGs on the market are made by a Japanese company. Course there are RPGs that are made by a Japanese company and only geared towards the Japanese market, but ppl outside of the market will import them to play them.

I've played Blue Dragon (came with my Blue Dragon Edition 360 - which, I bought to replace my other broken Xbox 360, which that one was bought to replace my other broken Xbox 360 Premium) and I disliked that game. I've played Trusty Bell demo and I enjoyed that game. I like enjoyed the battle system, unlike Blue Dragon's. I'm hoping the release of Trusty Bell in the states is region free. I'm sporting a Japanese 360.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By glenn8 on 7/17/2007 10:57:25 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah, I think the only way Microsoft will sell is if they set up a Japanese front or partner with an existing brand and sell a redesigned 360 under a new moniker.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By docmarke on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Japan's Preferences
By Parhel on 7/17/2007 12:06:02 PM , Rating: 5
No, that can't be true. If Microsoft was having hardware problems, don't you think we would have read about it on Dailytech? :)


RE: Japan's Preferences
By Piccoro on 7/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Japan's Preferences
By novacthall on 7/17/2007 12:40:05 PM , Rating: 4
Man, that was all over the place. What's your point, exactly?


RE: Japan's Preferences
By wallijonn on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Japan's Preferences
By nemrod on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Japan's Preferences
By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 12:50:18 PM , Rating: 2
I think the OP is off but he did say total sales, not montly sales.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By nemrod on 7/17/2007 1:00:11 PM , Rating: 2
Right but is it really the good indicator. 360 was launched one year before...
If this is just total sales PS2 is the winner...


RE: Japan's Preferences
By nemrod on 7/17/2007 1:03:20 PM , Rating: 2
small question what is the meaning of OP?


RE: Japan's Preferences
By TomZ on 7/17/2007 1:15:15 PM , Rating: 2
OP = "original poster" or sometimes "other poster"


RE: Japan's Preferences
By nemrod on 7/17/2007 2:32:54 PM , Rating: 2
thank you ;)


RE: Japan's Preferences
By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 1:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
Oh I agree, hence I said he was "off" that's exactly what I meant. They are leading for now, but anyone who doesn't think the Wii will catch them is delusional.

Note I didn't say the Wii is a good system though ;)

And TomZ is right, OP means original poster, usual the person who starts a thread, or starts a new subject within a thread.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By cochy on 7/17/2007 12:54:11 PM , Rating: 2
He ment total sales since the Xbox360 was in 2005. Also I don't think people count portable sales when quoting next gen console sales. Or the PS2 for that matter. The race here is between Wii-360-PS3


RE: Japan's Preferences
By Fallen Kell on 7/17/2007 1:14:54 PM , Rating: 2
However the metrics that are collected always include all systems available, which means older generations actively being produced as well as hand-helds.

This gives you the best idea of what is happening in the market. If you simply look only at the latest generation, you can not find the trends that the market watchers want to look at, which is why sales data will always include ALL the systems, not just a portion.

Just give Nintendo another 8 months and it will have sold more units then the Xbox 360 at the rates they have been currently in demand. I have still yet to see a Wii unit in a store on a shelf and we are 9 months after it released. I am glad I picked mine up release day (well morning).


RE: Japan's Preferences
By theapparition on 7/17/2007 12:57:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Is xbox360 in the lead?

The OP stated correctly "total sales" lead. So yes, the Xbox360 is in the lead of "total" systems sold of the "next gen" home consoles from their release date.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By SRoode on 7/17/2007 2:29:22 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, that is what I meant, total sales of next gen systems (I thought that was implied). I did not want my comment to start a fanboy war. I merely stated that Japanese tend to buy systems made in Japan, that's all. Previous gen, I own a PS2, an X-Box (never had a problem with it), and even a Gamecube. This gen, I own both a Wii and a 360 (never had a problem with it), and will probably buy a PS3 sometime next year when the price drops and there are some good games available.

But, to get back to the original intent of my post, the Japanese like buying things made in Japan. From my visits there, they seem to be culture that places a priority on keeping within their culture, so to speak. You really don't see many products (save, sodas, fast food, etc.) from other countries sold there. I guess it's just a different set of values and priorities.

That being said, I agree with one of the previous poster's posts... The 360 will most likely never do particularly well in Japan.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By walk2k on 7/17/2007 2:25:02 PM , Rating: 1
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. M$ can't even outsell the PS *TWO* in Japan.

Let me get this right, he's basically saying "we set our expectations so low that we can't possibly be disappointed" ?

Wow good job.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By Ard on 7/17/2007 3:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
Try the rest of Europe. The only place 360 is leading in sales is the UK.


RE: Japan's Preferences
By SRoode on 7/17/2007 3:48:31 PM , Rating: 2
As I stated in the OP, "I think France is the only other country where the 360 is not in the lead for total sales ."

Of all Next-Gen Systems, the X-Box 360 has sold more units everywhere in Europe except France, though it looks like Germany is just about to go the way of the Wii. And yes, I know it's because the X-Box 360 had a head start.

But, again to get back to the point of the OP, it's not even close in Japan, and it never will be.


Interesting logic
By therealnickdanger on 7/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Interesting logic
By TomZ on 7/17/2007 10:49:53 AM , Rating: 5
I think the point that he is trying to make is that, the PS3 failing in Japan would be similar to if the XBOX360 were to have failed in the U.S. Sony expected to be very successful in Japan with PS3 (apparently not the case), just as Microsoft expected XBOX360 to be successful in the U.S. (actually happened). Microsoft, on the other hand, never thought they would be successful in Japan, so their sales are close to their plan.

The mistake everyone seems to have made in that market is to realize that a lower-end device like Wii could soak up sales away from higher-end devices like PS3 and XBOX360.

But in the overall scheme of things, Moore is just another gaming exec engaging in stupid rhetoric and horn blowing.


RE: Interesting logic
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 10:52:18 AM , Rating: 2
True.

However, Japan is the PS3s home market where the Japanese are fiercely loyal to Sony. So if the PS3 isn't doing well in Japan, thats huge. And as he said, they never expected the 360 to really sell that well. They want it to. And they're trying everything they can to get it to sell well. But the Japanese just don't like products from anyone but their own firms. Take anything largely American and try to market it to the Japanese and it's near impossible.

So yes he is correct. While the 360 is also doing poorly in Japan, its a far larger deal that the PS3 is as well. As in the US, they created a machine thats far too expensive while the competition is more fun and cheaper. The Japanese love nifty gadgets. The Wii is one. So they're buying it. And it doesn't cost them $600USD (I think the PS3 is cheaper than that in yen in Japan I just don't know the actual figure).

I'm sure though since they are as fanatical as they are, once FFXIII comes out, sales will probably soar. Of course other developers don't base their game development on a hope that a competitors title will push console sales. Which is the PS3's problem. It's banking on a few major titles to get it sold but the problem is those titles are going to come far too late.


RE: Interesting logic
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 10:58:20 AM , Rating: 2
And let me also add that Microsoft made the right move in getting the 360 out first. Could they have waited another 6 months and still been out first? Yes. But then they wouldn't have had the lead they did.

The 360 has had problems along the way, but the fact is, it got onto the market long before the competition (and by that I mean the PS3) and got people to invest in it. And the majority of people don't have the money to buy two high end gaming machines. So by getting them to buy theirs, Microsoft got the upper hand and still has it.

Yes the Wii likely will outsell the 360 by a large margin. But since its cheaper, a lot of those same gamers will likely own either the 360 or the PS3 as well. Maybe both if they're rich enough and have enough time to play that many games.


RE: Interesting logic
By Chaser on 7/17/2007 1:55:26 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah. In the U.S. But this article is also overlooking worldwide sales. In Europe and Australia the PS3 has sold 1 million units.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=...

Again...wishful thinking.


RE: Interesting logic
By Chaser on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Interesting logic
By encryptkeeper on 7/17/2007 12:40:57 PM , Rating: 2
In regards to the Wii being such a major success everywhere: Comparing sales numbers to a Game cube with a numchuck that costs half the price is like comparing sales numbers of Casio watches against Rolex.

Interesting analogy. But at the same time, Rolex has established itself as a major prestige buy for wealthy people, and they probably make TONS of profit off of a 50,000 dollar watch. Sony's not really in the same category. Sony seems to have spent a lot of time daydreaming about the PS3, thinking about all the different things it COULD do instead of paying attention to what they were actually making it do, which so far just isn't impressive enough to take the world by storm. They built the PS3 up SO much in hype in the years before it was released that they couldn't live up to expectations, but they never tried to step back and make sure they weren't writing checks their asses couldn't cash. Now the first impression of the PS3 is that it's too expensive. It'll be YEARS before it even breaks the sub 400 mark, and I think MS found that's the max that people will largely pay for a video game console. At that pricepoint, people would rather dump their money into a better PC.


RE: Interesting logic
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 12:50:40 PM , Rating: 2
Well the Elite isn't selling too bad. But yes, the average person only wants to spend $400 max. $300 or less really still is the sweet spot though.


RE: Interesting logic
By Chaser on 7/17/2007 1:29:57 PM , Rating: 2
Fair enough. But as I have said many times, I believe potential PS3 buyers (outside of this forum) are not weighing the difference between a PS3 over a PC purchase as their purchasing decision when choosing to buy any console.

Regarding my analogy: Not necessarily Casio vs Rolex but I do believe strictly comparing Wii vs PS3 sales numbers is an inaccurate means of measuring "failure".


RE: Interesting logic
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 1:51:13 PM , Rating: 2
The difference is that, once the PS3 has some more and bedtter games, it will likely start selling well in Japan. The Japanese have traditionally ignore the Xbox regardless. Unless MS starts giving away big screen TVs with them, the 360 probably won't do well in Japan even with great games.


RE: Interesting logic
By West on 7/18/2007 12:48:33 AM , Rating: 2
Japan fiercely loyal to Sony? lol They hate/love/don't care about/ Sony just like any other people around the world. If the product appeals to them, they will buy it no matter where it originated. ipod anyone?
Japanese just don't play FPS and RTS like in other parts of the world. You have to either convince them to play the games 360 excels at, or make available the type of games that they want.
And none of this "how can they like those mindless RPG games" crap, it's just a matter of preference and what they grew up with.
And of course with PS3 having no games, look where its sales have gone...


RE: Interesting logic
By SRoode on 7/18/2007 1:22:55 AM , Rating: 1
"And of course with PS3 having no games, look where its sales have gone..."

Through the roof in Japan... Both the Wii and the PS3 sold more units in their initial one month release in Japan than the 360 did in 1 year.

They did this with hardly any games out for their respective systems.

Mindless??? Who's to say...


RE: Interesting logic
By OrSin on 7/17/2007 10:59:17 AM , Rating: 3
Peter is crapot but he is right. The 360 never expect to do anything in japan unitl later in its life cycle. They expect to win North America and Europe and then get more developer want to work with them and hope at that piont Japan take notice. Sony expect to ti kill in Japan take europe with North america soon to follow. I think the Wii sells are hurting the PS2 but truely its own PS2 sells is killing it just as much. I know people that jsut got the PS2 just to play god or war and now hooked on the system.
The Wii is out selling the 360 and PS3 but it not out selling a 5 year old system. I think truely Sony will do ok. When people decide they want to more to real next gen system they will look long and hard at the system they already got. For the record i never owned a xbox or PS2, but own a 360 now. But if I didn't get a 360 last year I might never get one since the PS3 is look much better now.



RE: Interesting logic
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 2:04:28 PM , Rating: 2
For me there wasn't any contest. I have a big screen LCD HDTV and HDMI and Blu-ray was a big seller for me. But I understand why hard-core gamers like the 360... its cheaper, has more and better games (so far), and has a great on-line experience. For me, the question was "what is the best LONG TERM value?" Does anyone honestly think that Sony can not compete with Microsoft in Sony's own playground? Is Sony NOT going to get great games on the PS3? Is it NOT going to develop a compelling on-line experience? Remember, this is the company that launched console gaming into the new era. The problem with the PS3 is that it was designed to fight two wars at once... beat the PS3 and Wii and crush HD DVD. While it isn't doing that well in the former its more than holding its own in the latter.


RE: Interesting logic
By TomZ on 7/17/2007 2:26:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Is it NOT going to develop a compelling on-line experience?

That's still a big unknown. How well do you think that experience developing consumer electronics translates to creating compelling, large-scale social networking sites?

Hint: When you look at the most successful social networking sites, how many of them were created by traditional players in the respective markets? Not very many.
quote:
Remember, this is the company that launched console gaming into the new era.

Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future success. It's more complicated than that, and Sony's competition now are pretty fierce.


RE: Interesting logic
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 4:36:19 PM , Rating: 2
Good points Tom. My real point is that betting against Sony, while popular, isn't particularly rational. The PS3 is arguably the best value among next-gen machines, Sony has a ton of gaming development assets and a corporate DNA of massive success in the industry, it has aggressively improved the firmware of the PS3 to make it very competitive (arguably superior) to the 360, plus has major content holdings that can be leveraged. That's not a formula for failure. Bashing Sony may be fun but, from a business perspective, it is in the driver's seat and Microsoft, at least in THIS industry, is highly outmatched. Sales figures for this gen of hardware are important but only tell a small bit of the story.


RE: Interesting logic
By TomZ on 7/17/2007 10:08:46 PM , Rating: 1
I agree, I would say that I don't expect them to fail at this round, but I don't necessarily think they will win in any way that leaves them head-and-shoulders above the rest, as has been the case in the past. It's a different world now for them.


correct me if i'm wrong...
By Gul Westfale on 7/17/2007 10:36:54 AM , Rating: 2
two things:

1. wasn't the original xbox outsold in japan by the dreamcast, AFTER sega had already announced it would discontinue the system? and weren't th e360's sales actually worse than the original's in japan?

2. isn't peter moore the genius who left sony for sega during the PS1 days and then jumped ship after running sega of america into the ground? how do people like that get new jobs in managerial positions?




RE: correct me if i'm wrong...
By piroroadkill on 7/17/2007 10:51:10 AM , Rating: 3
No, Peter Moore was still with SEGA even when advertising Dreamcast - infact he was in a similar position with them as he is now with Microsoft.. "Peter Moore rose to prominence at Sega, being a big figure in the company's North American operations during the Dreamcast era."

Also, Peter Moore being realistic, putting himself down, whatever, isn't so new, and frankly you can't attack someone who's doing so since they're admitting their faults already


RE: correct me if i'm wrong...
By Flunk on 7/17/2007 11:42:33 AM , Rating: 2
The Dreamcast was discontinued in early 2001. Before the Xbox was released in November of 2001.

Also the 360 is selling much better than the origional, which is still not saying much. If Microsoft can get some games that appeal to the Japanese audience, maybe they will move some consoles.

I find that my taste in console games seems to be mostly Japanese RPGs, racing games and platformers (Zelda, Sly Cooper) and Xbox 360 doesn't really have anything interesting in that line (Unless you want to import Blue Dragon and play it in Japanese (Nihongo no hanasu koto ga jozu ja nai).

In fact, none of the new consoles really interest me yet. When's Final Fantasy XIII coming out again?


RE: correct me if i'm wrong...
By Gul Westfale on 7/17/2007 12:44:55 PM , Rating: 2
that's why i said AFTER.


RE: correct me if i'm wrong...
By edpsx on 7/17/2007 5:48:09 PM , Rating: 3
He is no longer with Microsoft either. He is leaving them for a position at EA Sports division which explains his sudden outburst of dislike for the PS3. This is really gonna hurt all EA Sports games for the PS3 when one of the head guys doesnt even like the system.


Dear Peter,
By bkm32 on 7/17/2007 1:11:43 PM , Rating: 2
Now there are many people that would argue that the X360 is not a direct competitor to the Wii (pure rubish). They (mostly blindly biased fanboys) make this assessment based on the X360 catering to a specific demographic, whereas the Wii is catering to everyone. Okay, whatever, but answer this question, "when is MS going to figure how to outsell the PS2?"




RE: Dear Peter,
By aikend on 7/17/2007 1:34:43 PM , Rating: 2
Ugh. Apparently I'm a rubbish fetishist, because the way I see it, neither the 360 nor the PS3 are direct competitors to the Wii.

The Wii excels at games for younger people, where the 360 is week (Viva Pinata is cool, but that's it) and the PS3 is irrelevant. The Wii is also great for party games for adults, where both the 360 and PS3 are utterly irrelevant (well, there's Guitar Hero, but two players is kind of limiting).

So, speaking for myself, I can't imagine someone deciding between Wii and 360/PS3 the way one would between direct competitors. If you have kids or want party games, the Wii wins hands down. If you want more traditional single player console games, then you're left with a choice between 360/PS3... making those two direct competitors.

Just the way I see it.


RE: Dear Peter,
By bkm32 on 7/17/2007 2:05:44 PM , Rating: 1
No, just a fanboy. the X360, PS3 and Wii are competing in the console videogames industry. I can see if the Wii was a videogame accessory for cellphones, but it's not. The Wii is competing for dominance in the living against other videogame consoles.

This is a ridiculous arguement. Just because the X360 and PS3 aren't receiving love from women, children, and the elderly doesn't mean that males 18-34 are their only customers. The hardcore are buying Wiis. College students, yuppies, everyone are buying Wiis, including the demographic that supposedly the X360 and PS3 only cater to.

How do you account for the huge amount of casual games available for download on the XBL and PSN? Don't these compete in the Wii's demographic? Yes, they do. And Manhunt 2 is supposed to be available for the PS2 and Wii. What demographic is this game aiming for? What about RE4, Zelda, Red Steel, CoD3, etc. I can definitely see my grandma playing RE4 (sarcasm).

Take the blinders off; you might see more.


RE: Dear Peter,
By aikend on 7/17/2007 2:30:14 PM , Rating: 2
Lol. Really. Who do you think I'm a fanboy for, then? 'Cause I'm not seeing it in what I wrote, and I'm not feeling it at all. FWIW, I own a Wii and 360, but play both fairly infrequently. I'll probably pick up a PS3 when Lair comes out, if the reviews are positive.

My argument is that the Wii is better for younger audiences and for parties. I probably should say "casual" rather than "younger," because you're right that grandparents are buying it, and in a lot of ways the terms are interchangeable (that is, younger people are ipso facto more casual gamers, not the other way around).

But after you went all ad hom on me, you pretty much agreed with my point: the Wii has broader appeal *and to different audiences* than the 360 or PS3. Hello? Different audiences indicate that they are not direct competitors. Just because there is some overlap in audience does *not* mean that the products compete directly. Maybe your definition of "direct competitor" is different than most peoples'? Do you see the PS2 as a direct competitor for the 360 and PS3? If so, it's just a semantic difference between us.

The way I see it, hardcore gamers and/or those with money to burn buy a 360 or PS3 (and love either or both). People who are less hardcore and/or who want to spend less buy a Wii (and love it). Seems like pretty strong differentiation to me before we even get to the different trends in gameplay.

I think you're confusing availability with focus. Of course there are casual games on XBLA/PSN. Do you know *anyone* who bought a 360 or PS3 just to play those games? Of course not. Likewise with Manhunt 2 on Wii. Just because there are some games that cross over does not mean that the core audiences are interchangeable, and that therefore the products are in direct competition. Sure, some people play all three systems (I'm at two, will be at three soon).

By your argument, Discovery and CNN are in direct competition because they both have some shows that would appeal to the others' core audience. Talk about ridiculous arguments. They may compete in some areas, at some times, for some viewers. They are emphatically not, however, direct competitors.

My thesis: most people who are only going to buy one system find themselves either picking up a Wii, or deciding between a 360 and PS3. For some (grandparents), it's clear. For some (the hardcore) it's less clear. But in general, the way I see it, the Wii offers a very different experience at a very different price point, and is therefore expanding the market rather than directly competing with the next-gen xbox and PS offerings.

Ad hom away, if it makes you feel better!


RE: Dear Peter,
By SRoode on 7/18/2007 12:19:31 AM , Rating: 2
Owning both a Wii and a 360, I can say that I do use the 360 more. The Wii is hooked up to a 65" DLP, the 360 to a HD 126" Projector in the home theatre. Even with 4x the real estate, the 360 looks better on the bigger area.

The Wii is fun to play with your family (which is why it's on the 65" in the family room), but when you are on a big screen, it's very hard to enjoy the Wii long term.


RE: Dear Peter,
By SmokeRngs on 7/18/2007 3:32:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Different audiences indicate that they are not direct competitors. Just because there is some overlap in audience does *not* mean that the products compete directly.


Have you seen the complete game libraries of all the current generation systems? (Those systems would be the Wii, Xbox360 and PS3.) I'm talking about every game which will be released for everyone of them. I would say the answer to that is a no. Therefore, you are unable to state definitively whether there just happens to be a little overlap between the libraries of the different systems. For all you know, every major game, excluding exclusives, found on the Xbox360 or PS3 may make it's way to the Wii. Even by your definition, that would make them direct competitors.

quote:
Maybe your definition of "direct competitor" is different than most peoples'?


I would actually wonder about your definition. Mine would be a non-portable, standalone unit (barring controllers or other peripherals obviously) constructed to play numbers of new games, which is to be sold in large volume to the general public. I guess I should add that it does require being hooked up to a device such as a TV for viewing. The Wii, PS3 and Xbox360 were all successors to previous devices which also followed this definition. They were also released in a similar time frame. None of the systems are set to target one specific niche audience. The only major difference between the Wii and the other two systems is the price. The ways in which you control the systems are superficial and do not affect the actual definition of what the system is. The same goes for the price and the hardware.

quote:
Do you see the PS2 as a direct competitor for the 360 and PS3?


First of all, you forgot to add the Wii into that sentence. To answer your question, yes and no. Yes because the systems are still for sale on shelves and games are still being released for it. No because the system is previous generation and is on it's way out of production with fewer and fewer games being released for it. The PS2 is reaching EOL and won't technically be direct competition for long.

quote:
By your argument, Discovery and CNN are in direct competition because they both have some shows that would appeal to the others' core audience. Talk about ridiculous arguments. They may compete in some areas, at some times, for some viewers. They are emphatically not, however, direct competitors.


Actually, you are incorrect with your example. Both stations are broadcast over cable and satellite and both air 24/7/365. Generally speaking, only one station can be watched by one person at a time. Every station is in competition with every other station which has consumer content broadcasting at the same time (availability of viewing the station due to location or the stations included in the package should be taken into account). If CNN could snag the viewership of Discovery, it would do it in a heartbeat. The stations don't really care who is watching as long as they have as many people as possible watching. The companies releasing the consoles don't care who's playing the consoles, they just want as many people playing them as possible.


Expectations in Japan
By Serenade on 7/17/2007 11:04:24 AM , Rating: 2
To all the people who say Microsoft didn't expect to do well in Japan, here's a quote from Peter Moore:

"Let me be clear, this time the rest of the world is starting to realize that Xbox 360 is a real contender right here in Japan. That is a very important point because I know success in this country is the ultimate tribute to the compelling power of our platform."




RE: Expectations in Japan
By TomZ on 7/17/2007 11:08:40 AM , Rating: 2
So, how many units do you deduce from that statement, did Microsoft expect to sell?

That statement sounds like more empty horn-blowing to me.


RE: Expectations in Japan
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 12:38:33 PM , Rating: 1
Of course they say that. What do you expect them to be like "Yeah they're never going to buy it so screw them."?

That doesn't mean they actually think they'll outsell the PS3 in Japan though. Unless a miracle happened and developers like Square Enix and Konami pledged support to the 360, the 360 will never have a chance(and probably still wouldn't). Yes Microsoft is working on getting quality RPGs to the 360, but SE is the cream filling in the twinkie. Without it, you just have a bunch of fluff.


Peter (no)Moore
By ccggman on 7/17/2007 9:47:04 PM , Rating: 3
Peter Moore doesn't even work for MS anymore, he's jumped ship to EA. Why would he try to alienate one of the systems he's going to be making games for? I wonder if he'll have all those corny tatoos removed now?




SCRUMTRILESCENT
By Gul Westfale on 7/17/2007 12:47:21 PM , Rating: 2
that pic looks like will ferrell playing james lipton :)

"... and god will look at you and say: 'you are my most wondrous creation.'"




It's VERY funny how Microsoft always omits...
By daBKLYNdoorman on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
By piroroadkill on 7/17/2007 12:05:10 PM , Rating: 3
Incorrect on the stability..

Peter Moore: "Things break. We never said a complex product like this would be reliable (360)."


By daBKLYNdoorman on 7/17/2007 12:16:45 PM , Rating: 2
I cannot find the source of your quote. I reread the article and I can't find that quote.


RE: It's VERY funny how Microsoft always omits...
By jay401 on 7/17/2007 12:34:51 PM , Rating: 1
Peter Moore: "I like red rings. I mean, they're red - and they're rings! What's not to like?"


RE: It's VERY funny how Microsoft always omits...
By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 12:52:30 PM , Rating: 2
Peter Moore. "You want to see the GTAIV Tattoo on my butt? I'm not going to show it publically until they cancel the PS3 version."

Anyone else think Peter Moore, especially in this picture, looks like the dictator from V for Vendetta?


By MrPickins on 7/17/2007 1:25:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyone else think Peter Moore, especially in this picture, looks like the dictator from V for Vendetta?


Good call! :D


By daBKLYNdoorman on 7/17/2007 1:30:40 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, let me change that... he omits the POINT of the question.


RE: It's VERY funny how Microsoft always omits...
By Wasib on 7/17/2007 5:26:23 PM , Rating: 2
Guys

Hes Gone

This was his last cheap shot in many he has given not only to Sony but to Nintendo also. The gaming industry is better off without him. Good riddance i say, less fire for the fuel to antagonise PS3 and 360 owners.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/805/805708p1.html


By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 6:54:59 PM , Rating: 2
What's funny now is he is on a company that produces for all platforms.


Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By LiptonGreenTea on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 12:46:47 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah. Just nevermind the fact that its graphics chip is subpar and can't produce any better graphics than the 360s. And that the 360 has far better and more games available than the PS3 and will for quite a while with its star lineup coming this fall.

So go buy a PS3. Because Sony cares about the consumer. Just also forget that they cut their consoles price only to empty stock of current, more capable machines to make way for a new, less capable machine with the same price the more capable one had. But it's got 20 extra gigs of hard drive space right? And it's got Cell. That gives it 1 million times more power than anything.

Go drink some more of that tea. You might get smarter. If you believe the commercials.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 1:40:19 PM , Rating: 2
I normally don't jump in on fanboy flame wars but, so-far, the PS3 has proven to have superior graphics than the 360. Almost every cross-platform game looks slightly better on the PS3. That being said, the 360 versions have better multi-player and content via Xbox Live. "Sub-par" PS3 graphics is a myth from a practical standpoint. I don't know exactly what developers are doing but PS3 games look just as good if not better than 360 games. I know the graphics system on the 360 is supposedly superior, but that's not proving to be the case in real world performance.

If you are goping to pan the PS3 GPU then at least acknowledge that the Cell CPU is superior to the one in the 360. Bottom line is, it doesn't really matter. The systems are very similar in capabilities. The 360 has better games and a better on-line experience but Sony is doing great work with Home and its upcoming games library. I don't care if you're a fanboy but have some perspective.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 2:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
No offense but which cross platform game are you referring to? Oblivion? They had an extra year of development time on it so I'd hope it looked better.

I didn't say the PS3s graphics were subpar. I said the GPU was. It's highly gimped compared to the chip it comes from. The PS3 still is able to put out good graphics. But I don't think the games look any better on the PS3 than on the 360. As you said, both are extremely close from a technical stand point.

Cell is more powerful but only if you're able to get the most out of it. Even many developers have stated they prefer the 360s CPU since its the same PowerPC core the Cell processor has but theres three of them. Thats far easier to program for than a single CPU with basically 7-8 SSE registers on steroids tacked on(only 5-6 of which are usable for games).

And the main thing is that graphics don't make me buy games. I really don't care that a game looks better on the PS3 if I look extremely closely at high resolution screenshots. I want good gameplay and story. Graphics are a bonus.

But I still would hardly call the PS3s graphics superior. Superior generally means vastly better. Hardly noticeably better, if at all, is not superior.

I'm hardly a fanboy though. I just have a sense of value. Even if the PS3s graphics were vastly superior, I still wouldn't have bought a PS3 over my 360. I want to play games. Not look at pretty graphics. Or watch overpriced HD movies. Those don't add value to me. Yes there's games that will eventually be out on the PS3. But those haven't swayed me to buy the console the way the myriad of games I want/have for the 360 has.

And Playstation Home will be nothing but Xbox Live in 3D mixed with MySpace. I don't know about you, but I want a simple interface to navigate the features of my console. Not a 3D interface with pre-teens doing gay emotes over and over, over-aged men hitting on under-aged chicks (if the female avatar shown even actually is a chick behind the scenes), and a constant spam of people asking the same questions over and over again. If I want that I'll go play WoW.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 4:50:35 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like your PREFERENCE is the 360. That's cool. I just think that slammin the PS3's architecture and dev tools are just cheap shots. My point is that all of the new consoles have good and bad points, it's all about what you really want it for. I like awesome graphics and hi-def movies on top of gaming plus I have an HDTV, so the PS3 works for me. If I was a hard-core gamer with an analog TV, I might feel differently.

As for Home, I looks like a lot like Second Life to me. Once again, it will be about preference. I won't knock Live, it's very cool, but Home will appeal to a lot of people.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By SmokeRngs on 7/18/2007 3:42:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I just think that slammin the PS3's ... dev tools


Compared to the Xbox360's development tools, the PS3's are considerably subpar. I am not trying to lay blame on Sony with this statement as MS has been specializing in software development tools for much longer and it is known that their development tools have been thorough and top notch for a long time. I just wanted to point out this fact.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By koomo on 7/17/2007 2:36:58 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, in part...to my eyes, the PS3 graphics consistently look better.

However, GameSpot ran some updated comparisons of the two systems' graphics, including examples of detailed comparisons, and they gave the nod to the 360. For the zoomed-in details, it was hard to argue with their conclusion.

(still on the sidelines, enjoying the good ol' PC)


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By novacthall on 7/17/2007 12:49:27 PM , Rating: 3
Some people will say anything to justify spending $600 on a video game system... Next generation to what? The last generation of PC graphics cards? And regarding the 360 reliability, maybe you missed the news, but Microsoft bumped the warranty for all Xbox 360s to three years from the purchase date. How's that for caring about the consumer?

As soon as Sony comes out with these "better graphics" (side-by-side comparisons routinely show Xbox360 versions of multi-platform games are crisper, have better color, and less bizarre lighting) and these "better games" you're talking about, I'll get a PS3. And put it right next to my Xbox 360, Wii, and just about every other game console released in the last twenty years. Until then, no thanks.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 1:19:12 PM , Rating: 2
I think caring for the customer would have been making sure the product, that which the customer uses, is reliable, and not the warranty, that which was raised MONTHS after reports of reliability problems, is sufficient.

Developers, which are finally starting to understand how to use the PS3 architecture, is catching up to the 360 graphics. Remember when people said Gears couldn't run on PS3?
http://n4g.com/tech/News-51800.aspx
UT3 running better on PS3 than 360 last year. Not saying this proves the PS3 is better than the 360, but that people are discounting its graphics way too soon.

That last part wasn't addressed to you novacthall, you seem semi-objective. Fact of the matter is, Sony despite the recent price drop flap is kicking some major arse right now and has improved their prospects greatly. BOTH SYSTEMS have a great fall lineup and lineup for next year.

And right now and for the next few months you can get the PS3 for $499, not $599. That doesn't need much justificiation. Next gen console (like the 360), good lineup, Blu-Ray Wi-Fi Card Readers Upgradeable HDD (the last few aren't essential to gaming but added value).


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 2:46:36 PM , Rating: 2
Uh UT3 for the 360 isn't being delayed on the 360 for performance issues.

And after another year of development time on the UT3 engine, I'd hope that they've improved performance on an engine vs. a year ago, regardless of the system. It's not like Gears plays badly or slow on the 360. It runs fine.

And yes the PS3 is $499 right now. But it won't be for long. And those of us who do eventually want to get one but can't afford to right now, will end up with a more gimped system than those who can. Which isn't right. Nor is it right for them to be charging more money for it here or in Europe.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 2:59:32 PM , Rating: 2
Oops, I was thinking I never said UT3 was being delayed for performance reasons, then noticed I left out the quote. I meant to say, in the other post, that Mark Rein from Epic stated UT3 is running on the PS3 better than Gears ran on 360 last year (gears uses UE3).

Sorry about that.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 4:13:42 PM , Rating: 2
Yes I know Gears uses the Unreal 3 engine. I have a friend who helped develop a level of the game(the actual game, not a multi-player map).

My point was that if UT3 wasn't running better on the PS3 now than Gears was running on the 360 a year ago, that'd be sad. It's not like they just started development of the engine on the PS3 last year when the PS3 launched. They've had nearly a full year of development time to get it working. If it wasn't working better on the PS3 than Gears was a year ago on the 360, I'd be worried for Epic.

And that video also doesn't mean that UT3 isn't running better on the 360 with the Unreal 3 engine than Gears was a year. For both consoles the engine is probably running better. Hell the engine still isn't finished. Epic is hiring developers for it.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 1:45:35 PM , Rating: 2
Don't know what you are writing about because I've seen the opposite. Most cross-platform games actually look slightly better on the PS3.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By novacthall on 7/17/2007 3:00:22 PM , Rating: 2
My statement is based on a series of comparisons done by GameSpot. Part 1 was published on 6 December of last year, and Part 2 was published 13 June, just this year.

Part 1: http://www.gamespot.com/features/6162742/index.htm...
Part 2: http://www.gamespot.com/features/6171831/index.htm...

As koomo mentions above, it's hard to argue with the images.

It's worth noting their closing comments on part 2:
quote:
Our quick seven-game tour has shown that the PlayStation 3's game graphics are getting closer to the Xbox 360's. The Xbox 360 had an edge in texture quality and antialiasing in many of the games, but we didn't see any nasty lighting deficiencies like the ones we found in Fight Night Round 3 in the original comparison feature. Additionally, in what may be a hint of things to come, Bethesda's Oblivion proved that there can be a PS3 game port with better textures than the Xbox 360 version. The PS3's graphics win in Oblivion gives us hope that game developers will be able to produce competitive graphics if given enough time to work with the hardware. We can't wait to see how the games compare this holiday season!

source: GameSpot

Just to be clear: I have nothing against the PS3. As a game system, I'm looking forward to what it will accomplish. The system has massive potential, that much is undeniable. The spin can get so intense sometimes, though, it's sickening.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2007 4:26:27 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. I have nothing against the PS3 as a system. I'm just against the method in which Sony is marketing the PS3 and treating us gamers when it comes to giving us a next gen games console.

I don't want the PS3 to fail. I just want to see it brought down to a price level we can all afford. Not just those with a lot of money. I bought a 360 Elite which now is only $20 less than a PS3 (until all the 60GB models are gone anyway). And yes it was expensive. So you know what that means? I don't have a ton of money to run out and buy another $500-600 system. So I went with the one that shows the most promise so far and likely hood to have the games I want to play.

There were a few games that I absolutely had/have to have. Gears of War, Halo 3, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, Dark Sector, and Metal Gear Solid 4. 4 of the 5 I can/will be able to get on the 360. 3 of the 5 I will be able to get on the PS3. GTA4 will likely be bought but I can get that on the 360 and with extra, exclusive content. For MGS4 it is still uncertain whether it will come out for the 360, but if history repeats itself, it will. Final Fantasy XIII is a title I'd like to play, but I'm not going to buy a PS3 solely for it. Of course then theres the whole other slew of good 360 games coming out this holiday. Other than GTA4 and Warhawk for the PS3, is there anything? Another generic shooter or a sports game doesn't count. GTA5 looks impressive visually, but I've got Forza 2 and Xbox Live, so I'm good in that area. And I don't even then GTA5 will let you do whole engine (and sometimes drivetrain) swaps like you can with Forza 2.

So yes, I got a 360. I'm not against the idea of getting a PS3. But Sony is hardly making it easy to own one. Both with their "we're better than you attitude" and the price of entry. Yes the PS3 is $500 at the moment, but I don't have the money to buy one, nor will I before the 60GB supply is gone. So I'm going to get stuck with a system that is less capable than the current one and pay the same amount for it.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By Timeless on 7/18/2007 1:15:06 AM , Rating: 2
Give Lair or Heavenly Sword a try.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By Mach Omega on 7/17/2007 5:06:24 PM , Rating: 2
I'd give the comparison more credence if it had been done with different TVs. I do agree with the outcome but I don't think the test conditions were diverse enough.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By novacthall on 7/18/2007 8:29:40 AM , Rating: 2
Why would the TVs influence the hardware output capabilities of the systems? Were they testing televisions, sure, I'd like to see them use an array of different sets. Barring that, though, I fail to see how the TV would be relevant.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By deeznuts on 7/17/2007 3:02:03 PM , Rating: 2
I'm a PS3 owner only, so I have no incentive to say ... most crossplat games have ran better/looked better on the 360. Notable exceptions, Oblivion, etc.

But as I say this is not a hardware issue but due to developers not "getting" it at first. A crossplat developer, Mark Rein of Epic, has stated UE3 is running great on PS3.


Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By LiptonGreenTea on 7/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By aikend on 7/17/2007 1:53:57 PM , Rating: 5
Hey, everyone, this here is a zealot in its natural habitat. The zealot is notable for its complete disconnection from reality and its unique insistence on believing things which are not only demonstrably untrue, but wildly unlikely. Most zealots become True Believers in some form of religion or politics, which both have philosophical underpinnings, but for reasons not yet understood, some less discriminating zealots choose to act as internet champions of multi-billion-dollar international conglomerates.

In a feedback loop, the zealot distorts its perception of reality to confirm its already held beliefs, then uses that confirmation to justify its continuing conscious manipulation of its own reality. Zealot reasoning goes like this: "My side is noble and good because the other side is full of agents of Satan who eat babies and defecate on all that is holy, and therefore my side is noble and good, because they oppose the baby-eaters." Circular and improbable, yes, but zealots are uniquely able to cultivate deep seated convictions based on this sort of thought process.

Most zealots go through a chrysalis phase and emerge as normal adults shortly after adolescence, but some have been known to persist through adulthood. Prime specimens like this one often cause unsuspecting viewers engage in wild displays of surprise and amusement (e.g. barking laughter or spewing coffee out of their noses). Always be wary when drinking coffee in habitats where zealots lurk.


RE: Xbox360 is CRAP! Get a PS3
By darkpaw on 7/17/2007 3:47:11 PM , Rating: 3
LMAO, would rate you up higher if I could.


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