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Honda Odyssey

Honda Pilot

Honda Ridgeline
Honda to introduce a new 3.5 liter V6 diesel by 2010

While many domestic and foreign automakers are looking to hybrid technology to improve fuel efficiency across their auto lines, Honda is looking towards the tried and true: diesel engines.

It was reported last month that the next generation Honda Accord would forgo its slow-selling and poor-performing Accord Hybrid with a diesel variant. The oil-burning Honda Accord will feature a 2.2 liter i-CTDi Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel engine along with an ammonia-filled catalytic converter to reduce NOx emissions.

Honda is also poised to make a new 3.5 liter V6 diesel engine available for its larger vehicles including the Odyssey minivan, Pilot mid-sized SUV and the Ridgeline mid-sized pickup truck. The new Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel will first be available in 2010 according to the Japanese Nikkei newspaper.

The engine is said to be 30 percent more fuel efficient than Honda's current 3.5 liter V6 gasoline engine (rated at 17/24, 15/20 and 15/20 respectively in the Odyssey, Pilot and Ridgeline based on 2008 EPA estimates). The new motor is also said to produce 20 percent less carbon dioxide as the 3.5 liter V6 gasoline engine.

Honda's new diesels likely won't come under as much scrutiny for failure to achieve EPA estimates as has been the case with hybrids. Honda knows this first-hand as it recently became the target of a class-action lawsuit regarding poor fuel economy on the Civic Hybrid.



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What utter crap.
By mongrelchild on 7/11/2007 11:19:28 AM , Rating: 3
This isn't an article, it's a press release.

"While many domestic and foreign automakers are looking to hybrid technology to improve fuel efficiency across their auto lines, Honda is looking towards the tried and true: diesel engines."

This is just untrue. Both domestic automakers are pouring money into fuel cell development. If they are developing hybrids nbow it's because of market pressure. both have stated that hybrids simply aren't viable from a cost/performance standpoint. They have not lived up to mileage expectations. A parallel hybrid system is much more useful in the real world, and costs significantly less.

Honda along with toyota have been the biggest proponents of Hybrids. They have not had viable diesel tech for years. Now after collaborating with various companies (GM, Isuzu, Ford)they have a design to sell. How newsworthy.

To present this as a news item is simply advertisement.




RE: What utter crap.
By Griswold on 7/11/2007 11:33:38 AM , Rating: 2
Have to agree here. If one wants to see impressive diesel technology, you dont look at japanese cars, you look at european, particularly german and french, car makers - they're at the bleeding edge of this technology in every aspect, be it fuel efficiency or high performance diesel sports- and racecars.

I must have missed the news when Audi won Sebring and Le Mans in 2006 with their R10 diesel. :p


RE: What utter crap.
By TomZ on 7/11/2007 11:55:28 AM , Rating: 1
Automakers outsource most of this "technology" development to automotive suppliers and companies that specialize in consulting and development. Very little is developed by the automakers themselves.

You only see greater expression of this in German and French brands, since opressive fuel taxes in Europe have driven fuel economy to be #1 priority. This is different than in the U.S. and Japan which have enjoyed relatively low fuel prices.

But my point is that the technology is available to any auto manufacturer - they just have to get it from their suppliers.


RE: What utter crap.
By Samus on 7/11/2007 1:01:35 PM , Rating: 2
Have you been to Japan. Petrol is every bit as expensive there than here. That's why their car's are already so efficient, and historically most Japanese auto manufactures have roots in motorcycles (especially Honda)


RE: What utter crap.
By TomZ on 7/11/07, Rating: 0
RE: What utter crap.
By cpeter38 on 7/11/2007 2:31:03 PM , Rating: 2
Although component technology is in the hands of the suppliers (of the components), the automaker is in complete control of the engine assembly. You would be severely stretching reality if you claimed that 1 component would make a extremely significant change in the engine assembly's performance (i.e. the world's best turbo will still be limited by the capability of the piston, block, etc. to handle the mean peak cylinder pressure [+ 3 sigma]).

The only way your assumption is true is if the engine assembly is supplied by an outside source. At the moment, the domestic automakers ONLY outsource large diesels (and there are many rumors that most of that even that production will be brought in house).

I am not trying to flame you, but, I do not see it that way (and I spent almost 7 years in engine engineering).

As far as the technology being available, I will agree that it is common knowledge - the components are nearly a commodity. Getting them to work together reliably is a cat of an entirely different color ...


RE: What utter crap.
By TomZ on 7/11/2007 2:56:34 PM , Rating: 1
Component technology is mainly what I'm talking about, like the SCR systems needed for modern diesels.


RE: What utter crap.
By cpeter38 on 7/11/2007 3:14:37 PM , Rating: 2
In that case, I agree with you that the technology is in the hands of the supplier.

However, that technology is available from many companies. What needs to be done is well known.

There are very few technical unknowns in spark/compression ignition engines - almost everything has been demonstrated many times in laboratory conditions. The big questions are how to do it cheaply and reliably in mass production.


RE: What utter crap.
By encia on 7/13/2007 7:06:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Automakers outsource most of this "technology" development to automotive suppliers and companies that specialize in consulting and development

Toyota partly owns "Panasonic EV Energy Co,.Ltd"...

Refer to "The Prius That Shook The World" book by Hideshi Itazaki for Prius drive train development i.e. for Toyota, R&D is mostly in-house.


RE: What utter crap.
By CupCak3 on 7/11/2007 11:55:46 AM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately EPA regulations prohibit the euro "ultra" efficiancy cars from making it to the US market :(


RE: What utter crap.
By Hoser McMoose on 7/11/2007 3:04:34 PM , Rating: 1
... and for good reason! Air pollution is what is causing respiratory problems and killing people who are at high risk. The US rightfully focused on this problem instead of some potential issues that could occur over the next 100 years with climate change.

The EU has also seen the light and is in the process of updating their emission regulations to be as stringent as those in the US, and it's damn near time! Air quality in most major European cities is TERRIBLE!


RE: What utter crap.
By Lonyo on 7/11/2007 11:57:19 AM , Rating: 1
You can also look at manufacturers like Volvo and Saab, who happen to be owned by... US companies!


RE: What utter crap.
By mdogs444 on 7/11/2007 1:20:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
If one wants to see impressive diesel technology, you dont look at japanese cars, you look at european, particularly german and french, car makers - they're at the bleeding edge of this technology in every aspect


You are correct - when it comes to fuel efficiency. When it comes to power, well the US has that beat, but its for a different market (towing, trucking, etc).

What people here are failing to recognize, is that the Japanese manufacturers don't invent anything. They take what is already on the market, and refine it to be better.

Computers invented in US, now refined and produced in japan, china, korea. Cars invented in US, now refined in Japan & Korea.

The diesel engine was invented and first used in the US. Europe has been forced to make it much more efficient due to the price of gasoline & cars out there.

Japan will take the Diesel engine, and refine it to be more efficient, better quality, and cheaper than Europe. Honda will make a motor that is second to none in quality as they have been for the past decade, and produce it cheaper than you can a diesel for a VW/Audi, Benz, etc. Japanese wages & workforce VS. European wages & workforce. Its hard for any company to step up to that kind of competition.


RE: What utter crap.
By simong123 on 7/11/2007 3:28:00 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Computers invented in US, now refined and produced in japan, china, korea. Cars invented in US, now refined in Japan & Korea.

Computers - very debateable
Cars - Invented in Germany (Benz)
quote:
The diesel engine was invented and first used in the US. Europe has been forced to make it much more efficient due to the price of gasoline & cars out there.

The diesel engine was invented in Germany (Rudolf Christian Karl Diesel, working for Linde)


RE: What utter crap.
By EnderJ on 7/12/2007 7:44:17 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Cars - Invented in Germany (Benz)


Nope sorry, Benz may have invented the first Gasoline powered vehicle in 1885/1886, but the French (Cugnot) had a steam powered vehicle in 1769.

They're all based off Da Vinci's 15th century designs anyway.

As for the USA. Henry Ford didn't invent the automobile, he introduced the automobile assembly line which finally put cars in a position where everyday people could afford them.


RE: What utter crap.
By rcreyes on 7/11/2007 6:24:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Japanese wages & workforce VS. European wages & workforce. Its hard for any company to step up to that kind of competition.


What nonsense. Don't confuse Japan and China. There is no greater difference in two countries so close together geographically than Japan and China. Japanese wages are very high, perhaps higher than America's. Japanese industry is being hollowed out because of cheap Chinese labor. Of course, they keep the best, most complex work in Japan, as only the Japanese workforce can produce products with such high quality and complexity. Japan is to Europe what Europe is to China.


RE: What utter crap.
By kkwst2 on 7/11/2007 2:21:34 PM , Rating: 4
Not really. It has less to do with the manufacturers than the market. Ford is one of the more popular diesel makers in Europe. You might argue it's a different design group, but it's a U.S. company. The Fords are very competitive on fuel efficiency, performance and cost. I believe in fact that they've won

I assume the reason they don't make them here is a combination of different regulations(?EPA? as mentioned elsewhere) and market demand - either perceived or real.


RE: What utter crap.
By cpeter38 on 7/11/2007 2:59:35 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately, you are correct.

Percieved (most important) and real demand has been lower. The push from Hollywood has been for hybrids (regardless of the real world payback).

I have heard of some incredible fuel economy results when a group did the engineering excercise of putting Ford's 2.0 liter European diesel in a small SUV. We can only hope that they would release a vehicle like that for production.

Here's a couple tidbits for the Prius lovers - According to EU testing specifications, the Fiesta with the 1.6L Duratorq diesel gets 54.3 mpg in the city and 72.4 mpg on the highway. The C-Max (a Crossover/Sport Utility Vehicle) gets 37.2 mpg in the city and 58.9 mpg on the highway (with a 2.0L Duratorq diesel) ...


RE: What utter crap.
By Sulphademus on 7/12/2007 9:49:29 AM , Rating: 2
2 weeks ago I rented a CMax diesel in Italy. Drove almost 600km and that ate 3/4 of a tank. Ford UK says the thing holds 53 liters. So thats what? 15.1 km/L or about 40mpg.


RE: What utter crap.
By encia on 7/13/2007 7:08:32 AM , Rating: 2
"Hybrid taxi paid for itself in no time", refer to http://autos.canada.com/green/story.html?id=738538...


RE: What utter crap.
By Hoser McMoose on 7/11/2007 3:07:10 PM , Rating: 2
While the European car companies have generally lead the way in diesel tech, Toyota is no slouch here. They've offered pretty decent diesel engines throughout their line-up in Europe for several years now. They might not have the high-end that Audi and Mercedes have, but they do have some of the most fuel efficient diesel's on the market.


RE: What utter crap.
By kenji4life on 7/11/2007 4:12:49 PM , Rating: 1
I disagree completely with you.

Toyota (the #1 car company as of this year) Has been making excellent diesel engines for decades, and hasn't stopped. Look at the TLC. In countries that aren't stupid (sorry but the US import laws are rediculous) makers like Toyota and Nissan export some of the top diesel vehicles in the world.

That being said, Mercedes invented the diesel and I have no doubt in their ability to produce top quality diesel engines. Their new 2.2 diesel proto c class is a perfect example. If only it was more than just a proto.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and even shitsubishi are perfectly capable of producing high quality diesel engines.


RE: What utter crap.
By kenji4life on 7/11/2007 4:20:23 PM , Rating: 2
I was disagreeing with the statement that "only Europe" makes good diesels. Not the post above mine.

On another note, American big 3 (although some through contractors) have made good diesels for years as well.

Cummins for example.

The American companies would have had the ability to further develop diesel had they been given that chance.


RE: What utter crap.
By rcreyes on 7/11/2007 6:22:05 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like someone who cannot accept that Europe isn't what it used to be. See this article about the new Honda diesel engine: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/driving/st...

Japan's auto industry is kicking everyone's ass and has had a monopoly on the highest quality and highest reliability for 20 years now. Just read one issue of any Consumer Reports or look at any quality study. I'll take a Lexus over any rattle-trap Mercedes or crappy Audi any day.


RE: What utter crap.
By Comdrpopnfresh on 7/11/07, Rating: 0
RE: What utter crap.
By Anh Huynh on 7/11/2007 11:56:40 AM , Rating: 1
The Bluetec diesels are available in the Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD and was available in the Liberty for a while. No car usage though.


RE: What utter crap.
By Desslok on 7/11/2007 1:07:26 PM , Rating: 4
That is incorrect. The Diesel engine that was in the Liberty was not a BluTech engine.


RE: What utter crap.
By NEOCortex on 7/11/2007 12:36:56 PM , Rating: 2
All engines need an "energy carrier" to function. What do you think gasoline or diesel is?

Yes they do need rare metals, such as platinum, but catalyst are being developed every day that use less platinum and other rare elements.

Hydrogen can be stored as metal hydrides and in ultra-high surface area materials. Don't forget that fuel cells can also run on methanol and formic acid.

I'll admit that fuel cells there are still alot of things to be worked out and improved on, and they may never work for all situations, but they'll have there place. They are most definitely not a big lie.


RE: What utter crap.
By cpeter38 on 7/11/2007 3:40:50 PM , Rating: 2
What is your point about fuel cells using energy carriers?

Although battery vehicles directly store energy, they need a HUGE battery to get a reasonable range. Even the purpose built Tesla (a very light 2 seater) will have a big range issue (~200 miles). Lifetime??? I wouldn't want to be the one giving it a 100,000 mile warranty ...

Cars use energy carriers because it increases fuel efficiency (energy density is much higher and you end up with a much better fuel economy because you do not have to pay the cost of accels/decels of a huge battery).

If somebody developes a miracle battery (light weight, infinite energy storage, & totally safe energy release) only then will we have battery cars.

Fuel cell vehicles will have a range of 300 miles within the next 5 years. This range has been demonstrated with purpose built fuel cell vehicles.

Fuel cells have demonstrated efficiency of ~60% (energy extracted/chemical energy of H2). What other technology can do this? You think Hybrids can?????? Battery vehicles?????

If you think any other energy conversion process is as efficient, I want to see your data! If you try to throw batteries at me, compare it on an apples to apples basis (i.e. the vehicle will have to have an existing battery technology with enough energy capacity to get the range - the vehicle weight will have to include this capacity. Also, include the chemical energy required to produce the electricity at the power plant and the transmission losses to get the power to the vehicle).

IF you had bothered to do that excercise, you would not have made that post.


RE: What utter crap.
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/12/2007 8:00:06 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, Honda developed the Accord Hybrid to be a performance hybrid, not a mileage hybrid. So it would never have the mileage numbers that a Toyota hybrid would, for example. Not even a GM hybrid (which isn't, BTW).

Honda failed using hybrid technology and wants to back off of it and save face. So this is their way of doing it. Diesels also offer fuel savings as well as a good mileage hybrid. I am always saying here I average 38 mpg in my Camry hybrid *sniff*, which isn't phenominal, when you consider the old Echo gets way more than that without a hybrid system, but then who wants to drive an Echo?


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