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The X-Clamps on the Xbox 360 motherboard (Source: AnandTech)
Console service company Micromart will no longer repair Xbox 360 due to alleged design flaw

UK-based game console repair company Micromart has been fixing video game systems for over a decade. On its website it advertises that it will repair PlayStation 2, original Xbox, PSP and replace screens for other handheld systems.

Micromart, which used to repair the Xbox 360, recently posted a notice on its website that it “has now withdrawn from offering a repair service for the dreaded 3 Red Lights fault.”

The company states that, “This problem is endemic on the Xbox 360 console and the volume has made this repair non-viable.” Micromart will also no longer fix Xbox 360 consoles that display screen freezing problems. The company, however, will continue to support all other repairs to the consoles.

“We were seeing about 30 a week before we pulled the plug on the service,” said Micromart’s Jeff Croft to GamesIndustry. “We saw it over a period of several months and it was just getting worse. It began towards the end of last year. Once the twelve month warranty finished then we started to see more and more machines being sent in to be looked at.”

“The work we had done to the console lead us to believe that basically it was a fault with the motherboard and not something that could be resolved easily. And it wasn't going to go away,” continued Croft.

 “We're not taking that thing on board; we won't repair them. We originally did some work with it but it's labour intensive and it isn't really a feasible repair for us to undertake. We would probably end up charging GBP 100 [$202] for a repair and we still wouldn't be happy with the end result,” he added.

A recent investigation by DailyTech on Xbox 360 warranty returns revealed that up to a third of Microsoft’s latest console fail.



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At what point...
By SiliconAddict on 7/3/2007 9:30:59 AM , Rating: 5
does evidence turn from anecdotal to damning? When you start to get enough of this shit...well it starts to make the case this this IS a widespread problem. Contrary to what the fanbois and Microsoft say.




RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/07, Rating: -1
RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 10:12:10 AM , Rating: 2
1. The connotation of "fanboy" is that they are irrationally enthusiastic for the product/company beyond reason - I would consider that a negative trait

2. You say Microsoft is being unethical - what are they doing that is unethical? I'm not much into XBOX, but it seems like they've been paying for in-warranty issues and have extended some warranties. Unethical would be if they didn't honor the warranty.

And don't tell me that Microsoft intentionally planned for the product to fail just after the warranty expired. That's doesn't make any logical sense, and it would be very difficult to design the product so that it "wears out" right at that point in time.


RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 10:19:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. The connotation of "fanboy" is that they are irrationally enthusiastic for the product/company beyond reason - I would consider that a negative trait


Irrational is an opinion. They are enthusistic about the product or service they received. No says you have to be as well. Its like freedom of religion - everyone has the right to it, and to speak about it, in public. If you dont like it, dont listen. But its still not right to say they are wrong, just because you believe you are right.

quote:
2. You say Microsoft is being unethical - what are they doing that is unethical? I'm not much into XBOX, but it seems like they've been paying for in-warranty issues and have extended some warranties. Unethical would be if they didn't honor the warranty.


What I mean by unethical here, is not releasing statistics about the failures, or admitting that the RROD is a widespread problem. If they did admit, then that would open case for lawsuits. I didnt say they were doing anything illegal. You are correct that they are honoring products under warranty, but with only a 12 month warranty on the product, taking a month turnaround time to get the return item from warranty, and them sending you back a refurbished item that already had problems, I dont see how a 12 month warranty really helped that much. You paid $XXX for a brand new item. Your brand new item broke from manufacturer defect, you should be entitled to a brand new item, free from manufacturer defect.

No one is saying anything about intentially failing, because i agree, thats just stupid talk.


RE: At what point...
By SigmaHyperion on 7/3/2007 10:29:01 AM , Rating: 2
Using that logic EVERY company is unethical. No company in their right mind is going to tell you the failure rate of any of their products. Besides, in general terms, MS already said what it was -- roughly the same as any other consumer electronic device.

Whether you believe that or not is another matter, but even if they told you it was 12.82% would you believe that? Probably not because you already have an idea in your mind on what you think the number really is and if MS doesn't reaffirm it they are being "unethical".


RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 10:38:37 AM , Rating: 2
I dont have any number set in mind to be honest, and im not a fanboy of anything. I dont even own a console. I had a 360 for a few months and sold it on ebay once i heard about the RROD issues. But i definately wasn't a fan of the system. I played about an hour a week of madden and that was it.

I don't believe the standard 3-5% return rate from MS, and i defiantely dont believe the 33% return rate posted yesterday.

So before you accuse me of being a fan or a backer of something, just know that I am not on either side. Meerly looking in from the oustide, posting my opinions - whether you like them or not is your business, and you are entitled to your own opinions as well.


RE: At what point...
By Samus on 7/4/2007 5:23:14 PM , Rating: 2
man i wouldn't debate with this guy he's hardcore.


RE: At what point...
By cuteshox on 7/5/2007 5:12:28 PM , Rating: 2
LOL


RE: At what point...
By wallijonn on 7/3/2007 10:56:22 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
No company in their right mind is going to tell you the failure rate of any of their products.


In the case of Firestone and Cooper tires, the government forced them to disclose their rates, which were bought forth through the number of law suits which involved people dying.

Could Sony have kept their dirty little secret, i.e. exploding batteries, 'secret'? Not when you see the news flashes on the 6pm news.

By that reckoning, the reason why MS hasn't disclosed their figures is because their productsare not exploding, causing fires and personal injury.


RE: At what point...
By Oregonian2 on 7/3/2007 12:50:00 PM , Rating: 3
All of those were safety/health threatening issues. Unless the red LED lights starting killing people then it really doesn't get into that category, IMO.


RE: At what point...
By Martimus on 7/5/2007 1:55:20 PM , Rating: 2
Would that mean that the red LED lights turn the machine into HAL? (from 2001) I just remember that red dot, and thought it would fit with the RROD X-Boxes killing people.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 10:46:42 AM , Rating: 1
I don't think that not giving out exact failure rates is unethical. That information is a trade secret, and most companies don't release that unless there is a compelling reason. And, as you said, why should Microsoft (or any other company) freely give out information that could be used against it in a lawsuit, frivolous or otherwise?


RE: At what point...
By staypuff69 on 7/5/07, Rating: 0
RE: At what point...
By Kevil on 7/3/2007 11:09:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Its like freedom of religion
Consoles are religions now?? You're right to the extent that everyone has the right to their own beliefs or thoughts but a fanboy does more than just defend their position. They attack those who have different views than them, they hold strong ties to a company/product to the extent that they often ignore any misgivings. Overall fanboy behaviour makes the community a less welcoming place and damages it as a whole. But then this is just my opinion and you are free to agree or disagree.


RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 11:46:41 AM , Rating: 2
Now dont start purposely misinterpreting what was said. I suggest you read again what we were discussing.

The "just like freedom of religion" statement probably should have been rephrased to "freedom of speech". It was merely backing up the fact that fanboys of all products have the right to proud of their products, and express their opinions about theirs and other products on the market.

I do agree that there are bad apples in the fanboy market who's puprose to put down everyone else's products out of hate towards those companies. However, its not fair to classify all of them in that category.

There are people who ride Harley's, will only buy Harley's, and who tell everyone else how great they are and that they should get one too if they are looking for a bike. Out of those people - there are some that hate every other manufacturer and put them down, and there are also some that just prefer the Harley and have nothing against other manufacturers.

All im trying to say is that not everyone in that "fanboy" category deserves to be put down. Its like a women making a statement that all men are the same.


RE: At what point...
By wallijonn on 7/3/2007 10:50:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And don't tell me that Microsoft intentionally planned for the product to fail just after the warranty expired. That's doesn't make any logical sense, and it would be very difficult to design the product so that it "wears out" right at that point in time.


Then what is "Planned Obsolescence"?

Take any circuit and cut the safety margins to the bone (if a capacitor is rated to +/- 20%, then use the -20% figure in your circuit design; instead of rating the capacitor for 1.5x the actual voltage, just use the actual voltage rating), do a study that says that "x" part will likely have a lifespan of "Y" time and you can almost guarantee, with about 95% - 99% certainty that said product will last "z" days, weeks, months, years. After all, by designing a circuit to save $0.005, multiplied by millions (like capacitors) you can save a buck or two per finished unit, thereby translating into millions of dollars per year.

That is one reason why I buy only Intel motherboards. After going through 3 Abit mobos which showed the "pop corning" capacitor problems, I swore off all non-OEM manufacturers. I have an IBM monitor that is over 25 years old and it has been running for years, I have 2 DEC 21" monitors that are over a dozen years old. But I already see problems with my 2 year old HP 21" monitor.

It really is just a matter of using quality parts, inserting them into well engineered circuits, and doing QUALITY QC (quality control).

In MS's case it would seem that the circuits were poorly engineered, the hardware engineering was minimal, the quality control almost non-existent. Result: excessive returns of defective parts.

Personally, logically, any product that has an >10% return rate is a poor product. I would expect Infant Mortality to only account for <1% of said returns.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 11:00:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then what is "Planned Obsolescence"?

It is a figment of your imagination.

Think about it - why would Microsoft cut corners on quality - or worse yet, design in "planned obsolescence" as you claim? Quality problems could cost Microsoft hundreds of millions of dollars in warranty costs, lost revenue, damage to their repuation, exposure to lawsuits, etc. Don't you think Microsoft managers realize this when they design a volume product like XBOX?

In my opinion, most quality problems are the result of incompetence, not the result from a conscious decision to lower the product cost and useable life. They result from not having a good quality system surrounding the design and manufacture of a product.

Your assertion about the circuit design being bad is unfounded - there is no public information to indicate whether it was bad design, bad manufacturing, bad components, etc.

Regarding motherboards, I also buy only Intel motherboards for their quality. But I don't think you can fairly blame Asus, etc. for the capacitor issues that have plagued that industry. I don't think the MB manufacturer could have known about or avoided using those bad parts.


RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 11:03:51 AM , Rating: 3
Agreed.....but someone needs to pay for the poor Quality Assurances practices. Unfortuantely, 99% of the time is the consumer that ends up paying for it.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 11:09:02 AM , Rating: 1
Not sure about your 99% figure, but I'd guess that companies pay dearly in direct warranty costs for such problems, not to mention the value of the damage to their reputation due to poor product quality.


RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 11:50:16 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps not 99%, but the idea was that the consumer pays for it in the end, in one way or the other. The companies will increase the prices of other products on the market in a similar category, or increase the prices of the next gen console in order to make up for losses. After all, the bottom line is the shareholders, and increasing the stock price. One way or the other, it needs to maintain or go up, and making money from their products/services is how its done.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 12:18:18 PM , Rating: 2
Companies set prices based on the value of the product to the consumer, not based on the cost to produce the product. Therefore, the price is usually as high as the consumer/market will bear, and therefore, higher-than-expected warranty costs are more likely to come off the company's bottom line.


RE: At what point...
By Timeless on 7/3/2007 6:56:41 PM , Rating: 3
Maybe Microsoft is trying to follow Sony's footsteps with the PS2. IIRC the PS2 had a high failure rate when it first came out too. And in the end, Sony had the most consoles sold. Maybe Microsoft is taking taking it to the extreme this time with its Xbox360. Pretty interesting idea if you ask me...


RE: At what point...
By Parhel on 7/3/2007 4:52:21 PM , Rating: 3
It may not apply to consoles or computer components, but many products are without a doubt specifically designed to fail after a certain amount of use.

Inexpensive vacuum cleaners manufactured in the 1950's are still running perfectly well, but most modern vacuum cleaners will last for around two years of regular use. Why? After the financial failure of ElectroLux, most manufacturers redesigned their vacuum cleaners so that the dust was pulled directly through the motor, causing eventual failure. It doesn't make sense for a manufacturer to make a product that you will only need to buy once and will last forever.

I don't think you see that it electronics as much because the natural progression of technology makes that unnecessary.


RE: At what point...
By Oregonian2 on 7/3/2007 1:08:06 PM , Rating: 3
Nope, for multiple reasons.

One is that selling the console isn't big money maker, it usually is a loss leader. Planned obsolescence is something to make you buy a replacement, that's NOT what Microsoft wants even if they could.

If you've ever done MTBF calculations for a product (as an electronic engineer, I have for some products I've designed), it's a SWAG at best. It's very hand-wavy in terms of part specs and more importantly conditions under which even those numbers were made and how one corrects for the real conditions being different than that. About the only way to have accuracy is if one has a single part that has a really bad reliability so that it dominates, and even then only if it's well characterized for one's usage conditions. Trying to "hit" just-after-warranty is like trying to hit the moon with a bottle rocket. About the only way to do it would be to empirically modify the design using real failure rate statistics but the feedback loop is so slow the product would be obsolete long before being able to achieve the goal. Personally, my goal is to have the calculated be conservatively at least ten years and hope it's much better than that (my stuff might actually be used that long).

That said, consumer gear may tend to be made using parts where the maker says "MTBF? What's that?". May get crap, but still, it won't be a controlled-to-just-after-warranty failure sort of crap.



RE: At what point...
By mindless1 on 7/3/2007 4:51:36 PM , Rating: 2
There was no rational reason why others promoted the idea of it failing just after the warranty period ended. That was merely the point at which repair options shifted from manufacturer to 3rd party.

While it is unreasonable to think a manufacturer tried to make a hardware component fail at a given point, they can still willfully choose design, manufacturing process and parts of lower quality, not expected to last as long in a typical use. The lifespan of the product is expected to go down as they cut corners to maximize profits.

I don't mean to blame the designer and manufacturer entirely though, any moreso than we could blame any evolving tech for being imperfect. The rapid changes in the computing/gaming industry prevent adequate time to develop and debug. Unfortunately that's no consolation for the customer and IMO, at the very least the warranty period should be much longer on moderate to higher priced electronic goods.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 4:57:05 PM , Rating: 2
If you think about the business model of the XBOX - why would they do that? They take a loss on the hardware sale in order to have as many customers with units so they will buy software, services, and accessories. Building a unit that falls apart after a year or two of use contradicts that whole model.

The only logical conclusion is that Microsoft and/or its contract manufacturers may have screwed up - it doesn't make sense that they cut corners on purpose.


RE: At what point...
By Belard on 7/5/2007 3:21:07 AM , Rating: 2
Well... perhaps they are designed to fail after a year? yeah, they could put some code in the XBOX that when you first turn it on - it starts its countdown to self-destruction... there is a computer in the Xbox360, afterall.

Not hard to do at all, and perhaps the early xbox models, the code was buggy and caused death too early ;)

ROD & overheating is the most I hear about Xbox360 - geez, theres about 10 different companies selling system coolers for xbox360.

How many for PS3? BTW: Sony says their failure rate of PS3 is under 1% - which maybe true.


RE: At what point...
By deeznuts on 7/3/2007 12:51:16 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
People are "fanbois", aka "Fanboys", because they have a positive experience with a service or product. Xbox 360 "Fanbois" have obviously enjoyed their purchases to the fullest extent, have not experienced with vast issues with the console, and wouldnt trade it for anything else. I dont think that deserves to give them a negative classification.
You're wrong. Some people are fanboys because of a positive experience. Some people are fanboys because of hatred for another company. Some are fanboys just because they picked one side. Some are because they like the underdog. There are many reasons for being a fanboy, and positive experience is just one of them.

This goes with everything too. Look at Cubs fans, what positive experience do they have?


RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 1:05:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
This goes with everything too. Look at Cubs fans, what positive experience do they have?


What positive experience do they have? Man, you are very uninformed. Have you ever lived in chicago? I did for over 3 years. People, aka the North Siders, are not fans of the cubs because they win or lose. They are fans of the cubs because they love the city of Chicago, they love the traditions of the team, they love wrigley field and the classic players: Santo, Banks, Sandberg to name a few.

The majority of White Sox fans reside on the near south side of the city which has a history of being low income & minorities. Not until recently - when they won the World Series - did other people throughout the city start jumping on the Sox bandwagon, but that has quickly come to an end as well.

quote:
You're wrong. Some people are fanboys because of a positive experience. Some people are fanboys because of hatred for another company. Some are fanboys just because they picked one side. Some are because they like the underdog. There are many reasons for being a fanboy, and positive experience is just one of them


Ding ding ding! Exactly what i've been trying to say. We all know there are bad apples everywhere. My debate was merely saying that you cannot classify ALL fanboys in a negative sense. Becuase not all are that way.


RE: At what point...
By deeznuts on 7/3/2007 4:30:42 PM , Rating: 2
Take it easy bruh regarding the cubs, it was a joke. Lovable losers ring a bell?


RE: At what point...
By kellehair on 7/3/2007 10:26:32 AM , Rating: 1
My 360 just got the 3 red lights failure. My warranty expired 2 weeks ago. M$ cut the repair cost to $70 for me but I'm still pissed.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/07, Rating: -1
RE: At what point...
By hr824 on 7/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/3/2007 2:01:33 PM , Rating: 2
It's not defective if it failed outside of warranty, right? :o)

My point is that, at least it costs $70 to fix instead of $250, $300, etc. since that is probably closer to the real cost of the repair, considering the complexit as well as the cost to fix other kinds of electronic equipment.


RE: At what point...
By hr824 on 7/3/07, Rating: -1
RE: At what point...
By Christopher1 on 7/4/2007 1:22:54 AM , Rating: 2
Right on! If a system has a problem like this, it should be fixed for free and they should offer a life-time warranty on the console.

Really, this BS about "It has a failure rate equivalent to other consoles!" is just that - BS.

The first Atari's - the first real home console - had a failure rate of almost 0%, they just never broke, but they were exceptionally simple in design.

The Nintendo 8-bit had a failure rate of .01%. Less than 1 out of every ten thousand consoles sold had a manufacturing defect that killed the console. Same thing for the SNES. Same thing for the N64. Same for the Gamecube. Same for the Wii thus far, I still haven't seen any articles where someone has to send one back for a warranty fix unless they dropped it or something similar.

The PS had a failure rate of .01 percent as well, when it first came out. Same with the PS2. I don't know about the PS3, because it hasn't been out long enough for there to be reliable stats.

The original X-Box had a HORRENDOUS failure rate of about 10%. After they beefed up heatsinks and changed a few other things.... it got to the .1% failure rate, still high, but not unacceptable.

33% is too high of a failure rate for any product, and if people have proof that the failure rate is that high.... it's time for a class-action lawsuit on behalf of all customers, because Microsoft is selling a known-defective product, which is illegal by federal law if something fails more than 1% of the time.


RE: At what point...
By TomZ on 7/4/2007 9:41:12 AM , Rating: 2
Can you provide some links to back up your failure rates of 0% for the Atari, 0.01% for the Nintendo, and 0.01% for the PS? I find those figures a bit hard to believe.


RE: At what point...
By hr824 on 7/3/2007 2:27:48 PM , Rating: 2
My point is, if the 33% rate it true then why in gods name would I even bother to throw good money after bad? IF MS wants to keep me as a customer then they should fix there mistakes for free.

If the falure rate was under 5% (still high if you asked me)then it falls under the shit happens catagory and I eat the 70/140 dollars and go about my busness. At 33% ( if true) thats damn near fraud and they lose me as a costumer for ever.

Now if MS admits it mistake and makes it right they have a loyal costumer for life.

I think theres a PS3 in my future;)


RE: At what point...
By geddarkstorm on 7/3/2007 4:36:40 PM , Rating: 3
That's hard to say. If all they have to do is re-solder a transistor back to the motherboard, that can't cost much at all to do--in fact, probably just the cost of paying the employee, but I doubt it would even take an hour to perform.

No matter how complex or simple something is, cost is dependent on what the problem is and how skilled (and hopefully therefore how highly payed) the worker needs to be to fix it.

To someone poor like me, paying 70 bucks to fix a crummy 500 buck console would be like salt and lemon juice in the wound, so it is Not a silver lining at all. However, that's the gambit all consumers risk when buying a product which lasts past its effective warranty, and why I'm not buying any of these horribly expensive consoles.


RE: At what point...
By Belard on 7/5/2007 3:39:00 AM , Rating: 2
In the Consumer repair business - repairs are expensive. And companies HATE doing repairs on warranted products, which can eat the profit on that item.

A failed capacitor or SMT failure on such a console may cost $50~150 per repair. (I don't know what systems M$ has in place for authorized repair centers).

Lets say $1 for the part. At least $50~75 for labor for a simple repair. Ever see the still shots on taking apart a 360? Then having to put it all back together again? It takes time to do all of that. If the service tech is paid 1hr of work - but if takes 3 hours to fix it, then the tech/shop is losing money and time to work on other things. This IS normal as well - every once in a while, there will be a job that takes a little long, but the SIMPLE jobs that take 30mins makes up for it. But if a model is constantly failing and costing more to repair than what they are getting paid for - it becomes a problem.

An expensive piece of consumer electronics fails - its a problem.


RE: At what point...
By FITCamaro on 7/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: At what point...
By mdogs444 on 7/3/2007 11:52:50 AM , Rating: 3
Thats a good way to go. Especially with the ability to return for a brand new console.

However, we shouldn't HAVE to buy an extended warranty out of fear that something is bound to happen right after 1 year.


RE: At what point...
By ViperROhb34 on 7/4/07, Rating: 0
"Intel is investing heavily (think gazillions of dollars and bazillions of engineering man hours) in resources to create an Intel host controllers spec in order to speed time to market of the USB 3.0 technology." -- Intel blogger Nick Knupffer

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