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Anh Tuan Huynh (Blog) - April 10, 2007 12:05 AM

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13 comment(s) - last by jadedeath.. on Apr 15 at 1:26 AM

Xbox 360 Elite in its black finish

Microsoft's newest Xbox 360 SKU, in my opinion

Microsoft is set to release its Xbox 360 Elite in a few weeks. The new Xbox 360 Elite SKU adds an HDMI output, upgrades the hard drive to 120GB and features a black finish. Retail pricing is set at $479, a little more than the Premium SKU and $30 less than the outgoing PlayStation 3 20GB SKU.

However, does the Xbox 360 Elite have much to offer to current Xbox 360 owners? Let us start out with the HDMI output capabilities. The Xbox 360 Elite is capable of outputting 1080p over HDMI. How Microsoft achieved this is questionable. A Microsoft representative posted details of the Elite’s HDMI output capabilities last week on AVS Forum.

The Elite follows the HDMI 1.2 standard, which is perfectly fine for video. However, the audio comes to question. Even with HDMI, the Elite is only able to pass-through Dolby Digital, DTS, and 2-channel PCM audio through HDMI. Although this is perfectly fine for games, what about users that want a gaming console and HD DVD player all in one?

As a backer of HD DVD, Microsoft should fully support HD DVD features, especially the ability to decode lossless audio and output it as uncompressed PCM like CE HD DVD players do. The PS3 is able to output multi-channel PCM over its HDMI port, why cannot the Elite?

When playing HD DVD’s, the Xbox 360 has to take the Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD audio track and down mix it to Dolby Digital, and DTS with the spring update. Dolby Digital Plus has a bit rate of 6.144Mbit/s while TrueHD is a lossless format. Dolby Digital on the other hand has a bit rate of 640kbp/s and DTS has a bit rate of 1.5Mbp/s – that is a dramatic and noticeable difference.

Dolby Digital or DTS is then sent to a home theater receiver via optical S/PDIF. The HD DVD specification dictates that HD DVD players have to be able to decode Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD audio formats, and the Xbox 360 is capable of it or it would not be able to down mix the audio track.

If the Elite SKU implements native HDMI output, in terms of audio and video, it should have no trouble decoding the Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD audio tracks and passing it on as multi-channel PCM over HDMI. HDMI equipped Xbox 360’s will never be able to output a straight TrueHD signal over HDMI because HDMI 1.3 is required for that.

This is where I start speculating and question Microsoft’s HDMI implementation. The Xbox 360 Elite should have no troubles decoding Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD audio tracks and outputting it as multi-channel PCM, because the Xbox 360 is capable of decoding the audio formats, as per HD DVD specification and the codec has to be present for the Dolby Digital encoder to recognize the audio stream and down mix.

Judging by the output capabilities of the Elite, it is my opinion that Microsoft took the video card HDMI approach. Instead of providing native audio output, Microsoft used an HDMI transmitter that accepts S/PDIF input for the audio source. HDMI-equipped video cards typically have this type of setup including the Sapphire X1600 Pro HDMI and the MSI NX7600GT Diamond Plus models.

If you think about it, it makes sense. The Xbox 360 Elite can only output Dolby Digital, DTS, WMA Pro or 2-channel PCM. S/PDIF is limited to these protocols, including 2-channel PCM. This, however, is my pure speculation, and we will have to wait for Microsoft unleashes the Elite to the public in the next few weeks before someone is able to dissect it and figure out which HDMI transmitter the Elite integrates.

Onto the 120GB hard drive, the additional space is nice and something users have been pining for. However, is a 120GB hard drive necessary? Microsoft does not allow users to put their own content on the hard drive except music and it is most likely use is for the Xbox Live Marketplace and upcoming IPTV.

I barely use the 20GB hard drive on my Premium and most likely do the same with a 120GB hard drive. My Xbox 360 hard drive has a couple episodes of South Park and a couple XBLA titles, which occupy very little space. XBLA movies occupy approximately 5GB of space for an HD download, but those movies are rental and useless after the rental period.

I suppose the Xbox 360 couch potatoe will find uses for the extra storage space, however, the limited HD DVD output capabilities, limited codec support and lockdown for XBLA makes it a limited HTPC substitute, not to mention with the Media Center Extender capabilities, the additional drive space is moot point.

Microsoft expects to add MPEG-4 and H.264 video codec support with the upcoming fall dashboard update; however, if WMV playback is a sign of things, users should have no troubles playing the files off USB devices, CD and DVD disks.

Although I have my quibbles with the Xbox 360 Elite SKU, it is not without its positives. For an extra $80, you do gain quite a bit of features over the Premium SKU. The extra space, HDMI output and included HDMI cable is surely worth the extra $80. However, if you are an existing owner of an Xbox 360 Premium system, there is no provoking reason to upgrade to the Elite, unless your HDTV has troubles accepting 1080p over VGA and component.

In the end, the Xbox 360 Elite is still a gaming console with a few home theater-esque features. However, for those looking for a gaming console and HD DVD player in one device, it is a terrible choice, considering the Sony PS3’s feature and price. The Xbox 360 Elite will cost $479, couple that with the $199 price tag of the HD DVD drive add-on and you are looking at $678 for a gaming console that possesses sub-par HD DVD playback capabilities and no real additional features.

Sony is able to produce a high-definition gaming console with complete Blu-ray playback capabilities, why cannot Microsoft do the same with the Xbox 360 and HD DVD? A Sony fan boy I am not, a home theater aficionado I am, and I’m disappointed by the Xbox 360 Elite.

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HDMI...

By Hyperlite on 4/11/2007 12:49:12 AM , Rating: 2

So if i'm understanding you correctly, there is no way to improve the audio function of the HDMI output through software updates? or will we not know until we can see exactly what hardware they are using?

RE: HDMI...

By Anh Huynh on 4/11/2007 1:01:14 AM , Rating: 2

We have to wait and see, but from the early available information, this seems like the case. Its the quickest and most economical way for Microsoft to equip the 360 with HDMI.

Parent

RE: HDMI...

By Dave Baumann on 4/11/2007 2:38:53 AM , Rating: 6

I'm not convinced that this is either the quickest or the most economical methiod that MS have chosen in fact, at least in upfront costs.

From what I can tell Sony have opted for HDMI 1.3 capabilities by picking up an off-the-shelf Silicon Image HDMI transmitter, which is probably the quickest route in terms of integration into the system.

From what we've seen from MS they have changed from "ANA" to "HANA" with the Elite version. ANA appears the be the ANAlogue image output device which takes the output from the graphics framebuffer, scales it, passes through a DAC and then passes it out the required analogue output method. "HANA" looks to have the same functionality as ANA excpet with HDMI functionality - to achieve this MS would have needed to add an HDMI TMDS, HDCP and audio passthrough to the existing functionality of the ANA chip. By doing this themselves and building a custom display engine, rather than adding an off-the-shelf design, its likely that it was both a longer development path and greater upfront costs - note that as this is being retroactively added there may have been increased qualification to to make sure that it doesn't affect any existing software (also why we've heard from developers that have had HDMI versions for some time). Given that this is their own design, its likely that the solution will end up cheaper than a 3rd party solution over time, though.

What this suggests to me is that either HANA started design prior to the ratification of the HDMI 1.3 specs or that it started design before the HD DVD add-on was decided upon.

Parent

RE: HDMI...

By ArneBjarne on 4/11/2007 5:11:11 PM , Rating: 4

There is no need to wait. Amir stated in the original discussion on avsforum that the limitation is in the internal data paths for audio in the Xbox http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=77...

quote:

quote:

quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
The 1.3 profile was not possible because we started the design before 1.3 was finalized and we did not have access to the on-going spec work there. 7.1 LPCM is a high rate audio signal and would require more circuit redesign than we wanted to have in this new addition. But at high level, this stuff is not too hard to do compared to all the other electronics in the box. And certainly not an issue of processing power. We are only talking about audio data paths being wide enough.

Originally Posted by togad
Amir -

With all due respect, this is far from the truth.

HDMI 1.0 has wide enough data paths to carry 7.1 LPCM at 192KHz and at 24Bit resolution.

If it's not hard to do, and it's not an issue of processing power, and it most certainly isn't an issue of which 'profile' of HDMI you're using, what is the true reason for the Elite not being able to deliver 7.1LPCM over HDMI?

Originally Posted by amirm
I was not talking about HDMI data path. But internal data path in 360 for audio on the way out to HDMI bridge.

I guess I need to go through another 6000 posts before people assume that I know what HDMI can or cannot do .

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Half ass approach by MS...

By ToeCutter on 4/11/2007 11:49:20 AM , Rating: 2

The technical details of HDMI on the Elite have been disappointing to say the least.

I've been sitting on the fence forever waiting for MS to implement HDMI specifically for HD-DVD support. After reading several articles describing the functionality of the Elite, I suddenly find myself looking to Sony for my HD fix.

With the prices these consoles are demanding, it's outrageous to overlook these features. Most HD fans consider the HD functionality of these consoles to be as important as the game titles being offered on each platform.

It's crystal clear that Sony is offering full HD functionality with PS3. It's also doing so at a lower price. The Xbox has lost much of its allure with the announcement of the Elite. It boggles the mind that MS could have screwed this up so horribly so late in the game.

RE: Half ass approach by MS...

By Master Kenobi

(blog) on 4/11/2007 12:04:28 PM , Rating: 2

HD Movies are a non-driver for Microsoft, they simply don't care. X360 is a Gaming Console First.

Parent

RE: Half ass approach by MS...

By Anh Huynh on 4/11/2007 12:57:53 PM , Rating: 2

Yea, I was too and the early details are very disapointing. I ended up purchasing a Toshiba HD-A2. It wasn't too bad in terms of price, 4 free movies instantly, 5 free by mail from Toshiba for $399 with a $50 gift certificate because it was an open box. I couldn't be happier.

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RE: Half ass approach by MS...

By OrSin on 4/11/2007 1:01:25 PM , Rating: 2

Seriously MS never cared about HD except tp stick it to Sony. The 360 is a gaming center and media extenter. And as a media extender its the best out there. People can keep blueray and HD dvd, while stream any think I own in any format to the 360. If Bit torrent dies and nothing takes it place (the will never happen) and I can rip DVD's them Blue and HD might be something i'm looking at. Until then the 360 is much better then all other options.

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HDMI 1.2 is just fine.

By sotti on 4/11/2007 2:03:41 PM , Rating: 2

This is not HDMI 1.2 v 1.3 issue

Basically what the console needed was 8 channel PCM out. Why they couldn't get that I do no know. But getting the full PCM out would solve all the issues.

BTW go find me a reciever that takes HDMI v1.3 and can decode dobly truHD! They don't exist and are not neccisary. The decode step is lossless (the compression may have been lossy, but decoding isn't) and the PCM passthrough is lossless, so there is absolutely no benefit for passing encoded DTHD (DTSHD) vs passing decoded DTHD (DTSHD) via PCM , no to mention 8 channel PCM would be optimal for game output!

RE: HDMI 1.2 is just fine.

By Anh Huynh on 4/11/2007 3:22:08 PM , Rating: 2

Onkyo's upcoming 605 and higher models will decode TrueHD/DD+ in the receiver. However, i agree, PCM or TrueHD/DD+ it should make no difference because the audio is still going through the receiver DACs.

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MS's decision...

By oTAL

(blog) on 4/11/2007 2:57:06 PM , Rating: 2

I believe MS is taking the wait and see approach on HD DVD and they could be proven right eventually. If they included HD-DVD then they could be left with a useless drive if BD wins the format war. Right now they can always launch a standalone BD player compatible with the XBOX.
With that being said, I do believe they should have included the drive. If it is elite it is elite! More living room space, better looks and improved comfort for the user. This opinion is base on my belief that the format wars won't be solved in 2007, and they will probably last throughout 2008 which would give over 1.5 years of sales for the console. A year from now they could always rethink the strategy and offer the BD alternative if the market desires. One of the key aspects here is that games are limited to DVD only, and the HD drive is for movies. That means MS has the choice to change sides eventually.

RE: MS's decision...

By jadedeath on 4/15/2007 1:26:00 AM , Rating: 2

MS should have included the drive, Universal would probably pay through the nose to get them to do so as well, all the Gates has to do is drop the hint, and Universal and Toshiba would be all over it like shit on velcro.

As for MS waiting, I think that's a mistake. For starters we're just seeing the tip of the iceburg with regards to MS screwing people out of their money with the Xbox Live subscriptions and Guitar Hero downloads, the longer they wait, the worse off the backlash will be if they don't offer an alternative to those who have bought HD add-ons for their 360's.

Think of it like this, if you bought a HD add-on for your 360 now and they don't really release anything substantial over the next year and BD wins hands down and MS up and decides that they're going to start offering a BD add-on for the 360, wouldn't you be a little pissed? I certainly would be considering that I'd have spent 200 bucks on something that for all intents and purposes just became a rather expensive paper-weight.

That's why I'm thinking that Sony has a slight edge in that category, the PS3 is multi-functional, studies have shown that people want more out of a unit than just one thing they want something that does multiple things {see: the I-phone and any other MP3/Camera/phone for details} The PS3 is pushing Blu-Ray sales, Blu-Ray is a Sony controlled market, and Sony owns some of the movie studios that make Blu-Ray movies {MGM and the Bond release being the least of which} The more PS3's that sell the better off Sony is with regards to either games or movies.

Speaking of games, the next Gen consoles NEED the capacity of the BD {or HD} disks if they want to survive, it's all well and good to get the next Fable or Gears of War on the 360 however as good as those games were {and I loved them both} they were incredibly short for what you pay for them, HD-style disks are the way of the future and without that X360 will be behind the curve. With more disk space PS3 will be able to cram on more maps, better cut scenes, and more single player and multiplayer missions.

I don't own either yet and I'm planning on getting a PS3, Microsoft has a certain way of micromanaging and trying to suck the life out of a customer with Xbox-live subscriptions and adding charges on after-the-fact for me, with the PS3 at least I know what I'm getting into and Sony won't make Sony-Home a pay-by-play adventure.

Logan

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HDMI advatage

By Trisped on 4/11/2007 3:08:53 PM , Rating: 2

You can now use your 360 with a DVI monitor. I know a number of people that would be very happy with this.

But like the article said, no point in upgrading, just in buying new. MS still has bugs to work out though, so it would be prudent to wait till they fix them before taking the dive.

"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." -- Bill Gates