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Current style of education is too old says a university professor

According to David Williamson Shaffer, an education science professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, school kids should be allowed to play video games in school. Shaffer says that video games will provide a higher order of learning for today's generation of kids who are tech savvy.

Shaffer told reporters that the current way our education system works -- at least in North America -- is centuries old and was designed for the industrial revolution rather than the information age. Shaffer feels that today's education system is simply lacking in terms of innovation. This is what Shaffer says will prevent kids from competing with those who have been in the work force for years.

While many people will disagree with Shaffer, he did indicate that innovation in education will drive innovation in the industry. "People think that the way we teach kids in schools is the natural way we should learn. But young people in the United States today are being prepared for standardized jobs in a world that will, very soon, punish those who can't innovate. We simply can't 'skill and drill' our way to innovation," expressed Shaffer.

One of Shaffer's primary concerns is that he feels U.S. students are falling behind compared to students in rising countries such as China and India. According to Shaffer, kids should be allowed to browse the web, instant message each other and even use their iPods during class lesson -- although he did fail to mention any negative impacts this might have on kids paying attention to what's being taught. In one positive way, if a child was feeling that his teacher was moving too slow with a particular subject, he or she could simply “Google” it as the teacher continues to speak.

Shaffer is currently working on developing educational games that will help students learn about subjects such as history, chemistry, physics and other topics. Shaffer will start to promote his computer game-focused education system to various schools starting in March of this year.

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Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By rtrski on 1/12/2007 10:16:20 AM , Rating: 2
...that' why India and China are graduation thousands of engineers; because they sit around playing video games all day, while our kids are expected to "skill and drill" to learn fundamentals for real and don't get advanced unless they do.

...um, or is that the other way around?




RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By marvdmartian on 1/12/2007 10:23:31 AM , Rating: 2
Methinks said professor has been watching too many V-smile tv commercials!! ;)

Educational video games have their place, but I don't believe they've advanced enough to be a replacement for the teaching of the 3 R's. However, that's not to say the the method of teaching the basics can't use some improvement, as it's got to be tough to keep a kid's attention, when you're competing against video games & movies/tv.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By vdig on 1/12/2007 10:47:04 AM , Rating: 2
Traditional learning has one big problem over in the first world countries, and that problem is that teachers are having bloody difficult times trying to grab the attention of their students, who are surrounded by more interesting diversions, technology, and, of course, games. In third world countries where it is sink or swim, these distractions probably don't exist.

I personally think that education needs to evolve according to the environments of the students, and THAT is no easy feat. Kids are exposed to television, video games, and are surrounded by tons of things to do, that old fashioned teaching environments just don't cut it. Further, class sizes and the quality of teaching are not getting any better. 33+ students per teacher is kind of difficult to instruct properly, and without funding to knock that ratio back down, it won't get any easier.

Even if he wants to allow technology - iPods, games, and internet - in the classroom, it just won't happen. The almighty dollar is necessary, and as far as Ontario, Canada is concerned, we are more worried about school closings, thank you.

That said, there are educational qualities that few realize exits in current video games etc. If a teacher is keen to search, one can find all sorts of things, from reading comprehension to algebra and basic programming routines. Just need to know HOW to reveal it, teach it, and put it into context. I guess it also means that the teacher needs to be a good gamer....


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By rykerabel on 1/12/2007 11:33:03 AM , Rating: 2
With my child, the problem is that our litigation society has empowered the children and crippled the teachers. Todays teachers have no power to enforce any rules for fear of lawsuit so the students have control of the class now. Formerly a teacher could use intimedation to get most kids attention which works better on 25+ diverse students (30 students was not an uncommon number even in the 80's). Now teachers can only try to attract childrens attention which is much harder with so many diverse interests amoung the children.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By FITCamaro on 1/12/2007 12:07:20 PM , Rating: 5
I agree. I went to a private school and we had classrooms of 30-35. It didn't impact my ability to learn. You sit there and pay attention.

To me the main reasons kids do poorly in school today are:
1) They just don't care. Our society tells them that they can go be rap artists and make millions. Why be in school?

2) The parents don't care. Why didn't little johnny do his homework? Because you didn't make him. There's too many parents out there who weren't ready to become parents(another problem here in the US) and they still want to go out and have fun, not be parents. If I didn't do my homework and did poorly in school, my parents beat my ass with a belt.

3) And yes, teachers have no authority anymore. Students can do whatever they want. Teacher's need to be able to smack the kid on the back of the head when he's screwing around and not get sued for it. Hell get the nuns back in schools with their rulers.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By Spivonious on 1/12/2007 12:11:46 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with everything you said (except for the beating with a belt bit...that's a bit harsh IMO).

It all comes down to responsibility. The kid whose parents place responsibility with the kid succeed. The kid whose parents place reponsibility with the teacher fail.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By knowyourenemy on 1/12/2007 1:03:08 PM , Rating: 2
The teachers at my former high school(Class of '06, so it's still very recent) used intimidation all the time! Sure, it wasn't physical, but a lot of my teachers pointed out to kids a couple of important facts:

1) You probably will not have a successful job or career that you want because you are all far to lazy to compete with kids in China and India.

2) American culture as it is now is dooming you to a life of apathy and complacency.

This actually seemed to work on a lot of kids, however, the kids who were already doomed to pumping gas for the remainders of their lives continued to live in a carefree void. No physical intimidation, but mind-games were certainly 100% allowed.


By lemonadesoda on 1/12/2007 7:30:52 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not so sure that's good technique. Psychological damage can last for a lifetime, whereas a little red swelling from a rap on the knuckles in gone by the morning.

CAN YOU REMEMBER some things that happened to you when you were at school? Things that either the teacher said, or classmates said, that still have a psychological effect on you today. I'm not talking nightmares, but a sense of situation that if you had only been a little more confident, a little more experienced, and knew what you know today, you would have acted! Could have acted! And just the memory of the event gives you a negative feeling? That's psychological damage. Unlike...

I bet you can't show me any marks from the knuckle raps. And I bet you dont think about it either. And it doesnt haunt you.


By CascadingDarkness on 1/12/2007 7:49:42 PM , Rating: 2
These may work for border line kids in high school, but will this work on grade school kids? You learn your study habits early on. I don't think just saying if you want a good job, study, will work.


By isaacmacdonald on 1/12/2007 8:10:56 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, those horribly cynical teachers sound familiar. I do wish we'd start compensating teachers based on their ability to teach, rather than their ability to weather years of unhappiness.

There are still plenty of careers for students these days. Instead of discouraging your classmates, they should have been pointing them in the right directions. Sure factory work and low end IT stuff is being done for pennies an hour in asia, but who dreams about working at a call center, or assembling sports shoes? There's still lots of demand for those who go on to study math, engineering, IT, and biotech.



By edge929 on 1/15/2007 11:22:37 AM , Rating: 2
Belt is harsh? Would have loved to grow up in your household then. If my kid acts up IN CLASS, then I want the teacher to use the necessary force to correct it and then notify me, the parent. At that point, my child is in serious trouble and I will be the one to exact punishment.

This modern-age lawsuit crap is out of hand. Sure there are some crazy teachers out there, but the vast majority of them were brought up just like you and me and it's a way that works. Discipline must be taught repeatedly until it's learned. That's the problem with today's children, lack of discipline.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By CascadingDarkness on 1/12/2007 7:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
This no one left behind is the trouble in my opinion. A certain amount of children just don't want to go to school and nothing will get them to behave (even tapping them to a chair wouldn't get them to learn).

I'm a student not graduated too many years and I think some kids should have just been kicked out of school. They refused to behave, listen, or work. After trips to police liaison it didn't get better. Any that stayed in school never graduated anyway, they only thing they did was make everyone else’s problems greater, disrupted class, and required there to be police liaison in first place.

Beating children isn't the answer. Positive reinforcement is always better at teaching than negative. Rather than hitting kids I think they should just be taken out of class. Down to principals office X times your done. Home schooling or nothing.

The fact is getting an education would be positive reinforcement if kids realize it will help them down the line (it did for me). Face it, some kids are dumb and can't think 3ft in front of them. They see no reason to be in school, and ultimately they will regret it, but far too late. There needs to be some way to reward them quickly so they see something good to work towards (good grades only works for above people who look ahead). I don't know what that could be, but I know there should be some changes.

I realize all this said is some what intense, but I remember being in class, and feeling concern for my safety, for classmates, and teachers due to a few students in my class. It's not a good learning environment for kids who want to learn when they fear things like this. No to mention huge disruptions end with students being lead out of class only after threats of pepper spray. No my school wasn't some inner city either, it was Central Wisconsin.

If we really don't want them left behind put all the trouble kids who don't want to learn in one room with an armed guard, everyone would be better for it. Plus, they would get training for their future jobs anyway, prison. I'm not making up generalities either, more than half students I'm referring to are now in prison.

My opinion, feel free to disagree.


By isaacmacdonald on 1/12/2007 8:20:13 PM , Rating: 2
Good point. The now infamous baked florida state prof pointed out that this is a primary reason why US students tend to come up short in the international arena--he posited that most academically competitive nations have programs that phase out higher education, in favor of vocational education for those who that can't perform adequately, which leads us to a situation where all american students end up competing with a selected group of international students.

Whether this is entirely to blame for our low academic standings is debatable, but I agree that this obsession with forcing everyone to pass the same tests is stupid.

There are still plenty of great vocations for those that aren't academically gifted. Why not encourage such students to pursue viable careers as carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc?


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By tygrus on 1/13/2007 4:48:05 AM , Rating: 2
Why would 'Traditional learning' no longer work ...
What's changed:
1) Diet ?
2) Environment ?
3) Lifestyles of parents, family and commercialism ?
4) Flow on changes by each generation as those children become teachers and parents ?

It's not the children's fault but the parents and society that make them and mould them.

It would take a several pages of commentary, research and anecdotes to explain all the failings.

In summary: traditional learning doesn't inherently suck ... the world today does. Stop excusing the children, letting monkeys run the asylum and bring back common sense. Sure some of the old practices were bad, but some of the new is not working either.


By oTAL (blog) on 1/17/2007 11:34:59 AM , Rating: 2
World economy changed, dude.
The proletarian is gone! Now you are either skilled or you get really lousy jobs. Every half decent job requires you to have some skill... damn, even the McDonald's jobs at the registers are hard to learn for some ppl...
There were pretty good suggestions down the line, but your suggestion of leaving everything pretty much the same sucks.
Truth is the most important part in teaching kids is motivation which should be created by negative and positive reinforcements. Physical punishment should be aloud for indiscipline as a deterrent and as a way to provide a stable learning environment. Everything in school should be made a reward... The better students get free driving courses and are offered the license; the lockers are chosen by grades; when you did good in a test you get to eat for free in the cafeteria... whatever!
On the other hand, when you did bad you should be forced to have more classes, worst placed lockers, no bonuses, only one dish to choose from at lunch... EVERYTHING. Kids should be given options. They should be able to choose the class they'll attend (knowing beforehand the teachers and schedule) based on their grades and not luck.
Right now the reinforcement is in place either for the REALLY good or the REALLY bad. Reinforcements should be available for every student, for every small improvement, and there should be short term, mid term and long term reinforcement benefits, the best ones being mid/long term. That way, you are allowed to suddenly screw up and make up for it, while retaining most of your benefits. That would teach you about life...


By Clienthes on 1/14/2007 3:47:20 AM , Rating: 2
There are other theories...

http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html



By Polynikes on 1/12/2007 1:34:35 PM , Rating: 2
It's even worse than that in some places. My girlfriend's friend teaches at a rich suburban high school (that I'm sorry to say I went to). The kids there wouldn't even throw away their lunch trash, so she told some of them to, and they gave her a lot of trouble about it, but did it. When she talked to other teachers about it, they said to leave it alone, because the parents are so touchy about how you treat their kids. Even the most basic level of discipline is unenforceable.

How messed up is that?


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By SunAngel on 1/12/07, Rating: -1
By Fenixgoon on 1/12/2007 12:31:57 PM , Rating: 2
yeah, and how many more frivolous lawsuits and worthless congressmen could we possibly need here? i'll take the engineers any day.


By Visk on 1/12/2007 8:26:07 PM , Rating: 2
That's exactly what this country needs: More lawyers

Well said, sir. Well said.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By isaacmacdonald on 1/12/2007 2:44:42 PM , Rating: 2
As a public university student, I don't share your cynicism. There are many places in which interactive presentations could greatly benefit students.

In certain segments of math, for example, being able to properly visualize whats going on is a prerequisite for establishing an intuitive grasp of the material. Textbook illustrations often falter when it comes to things like probability and multi-variable calculus--this could be easily rectified with interactive visual aids. I imagine the same potential for building intuition could be found in virtually all courses (even the macro humanities courses like history, which would be very well served by dynamic maps).

While things like video games would require extensive development, simpler aids could easily be constructed in flash--yet these things are sadly lacking.

While chatting and listening to ipods is counterproductive, the ancient lecture format, which is so pervasive today, could be greatly improved if only there were the desire to do so.


RE: Sure, traditional learning sucks....
By mark2ft on 1/12/2007 3:04:21 PM , Rating: 2
The reason why the ancient lecture format won't go anyway is probably because of language itself. Speech is the quickest way to transfer information for a lot of things (except charts and diagrams and things like that). The rate of information you can pass on in a minute of speech is quite impressive. If you are sitting in a classroom of 150 students, presentations will always be accompanied by some kind of lecture/speech--listening experience. It's the most efficient way, I think, in that circumstance of a large classroom. Couple this with student-led education (homework, which could be much more interactive and multimedia-based), then you have a winner.


By isaacmacdonald on 1/12/2007 3:24:15 PM , Rating: 2
Well I agree that the lecture format isn't going to go away, and it shouldn't. Nonetheless, straight lecture format without interaction or presentations--I'm thinking about history classes especially here--can completely defeat the advantages of oral delivery. I've taken many such classes where the slightest inattention loses you completely. Such volatile classes are relics of a strictly oral education--which should be obsolete, and yet aren't.

Contrast this with the best class I've ever taken, which at face value was a daunting evolutionary theory of human history/culture/behavior. The professor assembled a great wealth of presentation aids (where animations and videos took up probably 40% of the class, and all homework was based on interactive models accompanied by frequent quizzes), and managed to communicate far more than you'd think possible in the span of each lecture. I learned in incredible amount in that class, and found most students were completely attentive and in tune with the material. Tests were very challenging yet 30% managed to get A's.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of classes FAIL to apply this effective teaching technique. It disturbs me as a student, because I know how and where these classes could be improved, yet faculty are unwilling to abandon/improve upon their outmoded teaching methods.



By rushfan2006 on 1/12/2007 12:01:20 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not going to disagree with people who share the mindsets that schools are generally with over crowded class rooms and that public education in the states leaves a lot to be desired. (Don't know if was just someone blowing it out their ass but I remember the old saying that the US has some of the worse public schools but some of the best Universities).

However, a very solid and firm belief of mind whenver you talk to me about kids' education, lifestyle, or behavior in general -- goes back to parenting.

I don't think its fair to say with education its 100% the school or teachers' fault, with how kids behave I think to blame "Hollywood", videogames or music is a partial cop-out as well.

Parents folks...that's where it all starts...every thing a kid learns, endorses as a belief or accept as proper behavior is either promoted or discouraged from parents and family.

When I was a kid in High school -- I did joke around and have fun but because of how my parents were I knew I had to get my work done and show decent grades. In other words, it was my dad I worried about being pissed at me not what the school did or didn't do to me.

I was raised in such a way to not want to be a failure --- to do bad in school was something that I know would let down my parents and myself (and well yeah also get me grounded for the weekends).

Today more and more -- parents suck at being parents. At being role models. Everyone wants to be friends and cool to their kids these days. Or to the other extreme parents just abuse the hell out of their kids.

That my friends is why kids today are about to be the first generation to actually be WORSE off than their parents.

What a wonderful thing to proud of huh?

But kids today are to busy being tough guys, or whining about everything that doesn't go their way --- "What you mean the world doesn't owe me anything? HOW DARE YOU MO'FO!!!". ;)





By Spivonious on 1/12/2007 12:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
I dread the day when these kids today graduate from college and get thrust into the real world. I predict a sharp increase in unemployment matched with a sharp increase in available positions.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/12/2007 1:51:02 PM , Rating: 2
That's already here today. I haven't even finished my college degree yet, but my engineering skills have landed me a job making >70k/yr. I work with people 2x my age, and see lots of people 5/10 years older than me joining the company and they are complete morons. Were turning out people that have no practical skills, just "people skills", and "networking skills". Nobody can stand on their own 2 god damn feet anymore, its sad.


By isaacmacdonald on 1/12/2007 8:36:58 PM , Rating: 2
I don't really know where all this cynicism comes from. I'm at a public university with fairly low admission standards (median SAT is 12xx), and often find myself IMPRESSED by the number of hard working american students I see taking the "hard classes," and succeeding. This idea that most kids are just goofing off getting drunk every day at college is deeply misguided.

I'm familiar with the "real world" -- I worked a desk at a prominent newspaper company for a few years before heading to college -- and I don't see any incredible deficits that will disadvantage the current crop of college students.


By typo101 on 1/14/2007 11:10:46 AM , Rating: 2
I think your idea that your personal experience at one university qualifies as sufficient information to debunk the idea "that most kids are just goofing off and getting drunk everyday at college" is deeply misguided.


By isaacmacdonald on 1/14/2007 11:31:42 AM , Rating: 2
It may well be, however as I've said elsewhere in this thread, US universities continue to rank among the top in the world--the fact that these universities aren't devoid of domestic students should speak to the fact that the students themselves are doing something right. The biggest academic question of the day (for colleges and universities, that is) is the effect of "grade-inflation"--that's something of an achievement, compared to our faltering public schools.

So yes, it's possible (though statistically unlikely) that my university alone is populated by a ridiculously disproportionate number of hard working students. But before I believe this, I'll need some kind of contradictory evidence.


By CascadingDarkness on 1/12/2007 7:59:43 PM , Rating: 2
The simple fact is the school systems need a way to compensate for bad parents without ruining everyones education, which in my opinion what happens now. I have no ideas short of just putting bad parents and their kids to sleep. (Sorry bad day at work, severs crashing left and right).


Yea, ok...
By kextyn on 1/12/2007 11:10:23 AM , Rating: 2
The last thing kids need is more distractions during class. Listen to iPods in class? Is this guy insane? How do you teach someone anything when all they can hear is their music?

If anything kids should be allowed to use computers in class but it needs to be restricted so that they can not play games. They would also need some pretty strict filtering of websites. It would be great if kids could use a laptop at their desk to look up information on the current subject, but the problem is who is going to pay for these laptops? They can't use personal laptops because then there would be no way to limit the use of games.

The problem with kids in school these days is they don't pay attention and they really don't care to learn. I say we reward the good kids more and punish the ones who aren't trying.




RE: Yea, ok...
By rykerabel on 1/12/2007 11:37:31 AM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately, "No child left behind" rewards the lazy and punishes the hard worker.

If a child is too slow, they give him more time which is a reward. If a child finishes fast, they give him more work to do so he doesn't distract the slow lazy daydreamer who knows he'll get more time so is in no hurry and thus just daydreams more. (yes, my son's teacher lets him daydream and then gives him extra time to finish work. all of his teachers since 1st grade have done this and so far we've never been able to stop them)


RE: Yea, ok...
By FITCamaro on 1/12/2007 12:11:36 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah No Child Left Behind is retarded. How about they get left behind and then when they realize that they look like an idiot, they might shape up and realize that the world isn't going to cater to them.

I had a guy in my grade who failed a grade. Probably made him feel dumb (of course he was) to be in the same grade as his younger sister. Last I heard he sits at home not working or anything and would be 25 now.


I like this Shaffer guy
By TimberJon on 1/12/2007 11:37:16 AM , Rating: 3
I did a report on this in Economics class. Though not a video game.. My report was on PC terminal desks.

Teach thought it was the best thing he ever heard. I had included screenshots of Final Fantasy XIII where Squall was in that classroom in the Balamb Garden. Teacher loved the idea of each student having a data desk with computer tutorials, being able to follow along with the material, or follow a powerpoint-style presentation. Do tests on-screen and things like that. He also stated that students wouldnt have to lug heavy books around or accessories, so that the students could focus better on classwork because personal items might not be allowed in class.

Personally, I think they should also have a little cup dispenser and a purified water fountain on each terminal.

I'd PAY to send my children to such a classroom.




RE: I like this Shaffer guy
By FITCamaro on 1/12/2007 12:13:38 PM , Rating: 2
In high school and college I long dreamt of a classroom where your books were flash memory sticks that you inserted into a computer terminal and it was interactive.

I guess such dreams will have to remain in Star Trek.


hm
By LumbergTech on 1/12/2007 4:26:24 PM , Rating: 3
it seems to me that many people are missing the point of teaching in video games..

this isnt just about trying to make it fun or try to trick kids into learning..

its about the way that it forces a person to accomplish a certain task before they are allowed to move on..

in a book you can move on and still be confused about certain concepts..completely missing some of even the main points of a piece of material..

with a video game it will REQUIRE the child or adult to demonstrate a SPECIFIC skill before even moving on to something else...and then it can restest their knowledge at a later point and repeat if they forget something

this is a very powerful tool in my opinion...




RE: hm
By zeroslugfm on 1/12/2007 10:24:54 PM , Rating: 2
it can certainly prove to be a powerful tool but it's also open to the same pitfalls as the more traditional methods. Perhaps instead of "forcing" students to play these games; maybe just use them as a simple ( optional ) tool to help visualize the material.

For one it would help make History class more interesting when students can SEE ancient civilizations and their inner workings. But just giving students a game could just make them dread learning even more if it's just forced on them.
(make a game too hard and the student is likely to just give up and walk away).

Personally I would've liked being given the option to play a simple puzzle before a test; and/or play through a game about a subject after studying in class. But it's certainly not something for everyone.


Why
By Scabies on 1/12/2007 11:39:54 AM , Rating: 2
They shouldnt be listening to iPods, they should be listening to Zunes! I say that in jest, only because the wifi component would, with a bit of tweaking, allow the teacher to moniter what the kids were listening to, or "hack" their PMPs and shut them off if needed.

I think what teachers should be teaching more of is the why, and not the what. I was years beyond my classmates in High School, because my elementary school teachers had taught me to look beyond the text, and find the inner workings of things. This made me question (and stump) one of my high school science teachers on a point about absolute zero who was just teaching out of the book. So when all of my Texas High School teachers were cramming standardized testing on the students, I was doing applied learning and intuitive deduction to learn other things at the same time.

...or maybe it was reading Calvin and Hobbes...
"But then in the thirties, wouldnt black and white pictures turned to color with everything esle?"
"No, because they were already color pictures of black and white objects."




RE: Why
By Spivonious on 1/12/2007 11:47:48 AM , Rating: 2
Ha! Calvin & Hobbes is the best comic strip ever. I've learned so many things from that boy and his tiger. Thank you Bill Watterson.


Of course it will help students' grades...
By pnyffeler on 1/12/2007 12:04:05 PM , Rating: 2
The OTHER students.

The idiots who are stupid enough to screw around in class help bring down the curve, which is great for those of us who still pay attention. Same goes for surfing the web, too, although sitting behind those slackers make it tough to listen to the professor when they've got videos playing right in front of you.

I'm in law school now. Who do you think it was that showed all of my classmates how to play old NES games on an emulator right before finals??? Everybody was passing around the code to jump to Tyson in Punchout while I was taking notes.




By zeroslugfm on 1/12/2007 10:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
and they still didn't even beat Tyson. Lose/Lose situation.


Well, only for certain things...
By mark2ft on 1/12/2007 3:00:07 PM , Rating: 2
I think interactive game-styled multimedia content in the classroom is a natural development (e.g., simple arithmetic is always great to convert into game-styled teaching). But it's not always the case that newer methods of doing something = superior results. Some concepts that you study in school are so deep and profound, that putting it into a video game would be missing the point. There is a time to have fun with learning, but there is also a time to sit and reflect on it seriously, because it's that important. There is no way that you could make a video game to make students feel the tremendous human suffering and impact of the Holocaust, for example. How? How would you do it? I don't think games are the way to go for certain things--and this is their biggest limitation for classroom use.

I think the biggest drawback about educational video game use is that it would tend to make students take their material half-heartedly, for the sake of the game instead of what the game is actually about.




By isaacmacdonald on 1/12/2007 9:51:11 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, I think you're greatly underestimating the abilities of even middle school children. Simple math doesn't require games or dynamic content, it's the stuff that either requires a deeply intuitive grasp (higher level mathematics like say calc 3 and 4) or some level of perspective.

You point to history and ask how it could be made into a game and still evoke the same responses. I don't think it's that tough to fathom, myself. For example, the Roman sack of Carthage could be made quite striking by using something like Civilization (with some slightly more advanced diplomacy options). I can imagine the infamous primrose diplomatic path leading to the complete ruin and destruction of the city evoking some pretty powerful feelings (especially if the students were given the task of playing as the Carthaginians) while making the students engage with the material vastly more than they would otherwise.

Beyond this, wouldn't history be made so much more comprehensible if there were well developed, dynamic models of cultural and military influence? I'm more of a math guy myself, but on the occasions that I do have to take a history class, I often find myself without a greater perspective in which to situate newly presented information. Hell just the other day I was looking for some kind of flash animation detailing border fluctuations and trade routes from ancient to modern history (a la civilization 4, again), and was surprised to find nothing at all.


Missing the point here
By AndreasM on 1/13/2007 1:37:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to Shaffer, kids should be allowed to browse the web, instant message each other and even use their iPods during class lesson -- although he did fail to mention any negative impacts this might have on kids paying attention to what's being taught.


I think the point is that there is no one to pay attention to in the learning environment he is envisioning, hence no distraction from listening to music. E.g. a more active learning process, where children find the information themselves, and actually try to piece together and understand what they're being taught instead of memorising things.




RE: Missing the point here
By mindless1 on 1/14/2007 9:25:09 AM , Rating: 2
A child that is motivated to think about what they're memorizing can do so with no more motivation needed than they'd need to "find the information themselves and actually try to piece together".

Instead what we have is children who try to do least amount possible, and if not required to memorize, will have even that much less education. I often find fault with people who pretend to be knowledgeable by merely parroting data, but it's a whole lot closer to the goal than someone who can't even parrot the data.

To think about something first you have to have the information in your mind and under the current educational system in the US, it's hard enough to keep kids focused to get that much done - and now this professor suggests an even less efficient way of getting less information into their minds, mostly distractions.

When the day comes that their jobs entail playing video games all day to get their work done, then similar trainning in schools will be more appropriate. Until then, targeted education will be best used to aim at the real job requirements. Thinking about the information being memorized is certainly important to be able to use it effectively, later, but then in later schooling students ARE required to be able to write essays or otherwise demonstrate a certain extent of working understanding, outside of class is where this occurs. Time in class is more precious, would truely be a waste if kids were just playing their games instead of the most active direction from the teacher, which could be argued was the whole point of the teacher being there in the first place.

Frankly I think the reason there isn't enough innovation is that there isn't enough free time. Working hours go up and everyone is rushed to be productive. Idle time away from work is where people can subconsciously put original thoughts into problems and be aided by being in a different environmental context.

Innovation isn't what will save us from ourselves though, it isn't an end onto itself unless you want to arbitrarily add the word to current problem-resolution scenarios like "find innovative way to persuade people to stop using so much power", or "find innovative way to force alternative vehicle refueling centers onto every community".


Medal of Honor. Thank you for my 98 in history
By Tsuwamono on 1/12/2007 10:25:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Shaffer is currently working on developing educational games that will help students learn about subjects such as history, chemistry, physics and other topics. Shaffer will start to promote is computer game-focused education system to various schools starting in March of this year.


Just play Medal of Honor Allied Assault. I played that through and through and it got me interested in WW1 and WW2. I then just watched the occasional show on the History channel and then when it came time to learn about WW2 i was able to sleep or listen to my MP3 player the whole time and then pull off a 98.

Of course because its an American made game i then had to focus more on the Canadian side of things when i watched the history channel or else i would have only known American sku on WW2.




RE: Medal of Honor. Thank you for my 98 in history
By bokep on 1/12/07, Rating: -1
By typo101 on 1/14/2007 11:28:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Throughout high school I pulled 90+ averages without doing any homework or studying for most tests. High school is a joke; you have nothing to be proud about.


Thats the spirit. I can't understand why people wouldn't be motivated with friends like you.

quote:
There is also a large difference between playing a video game to learn, and playing a video game to become interested in a subject and learn about it.


True, but I think it has been established thats its interest thats lacking. And I'm sure you would be more likely to remember the importance of say the battle at Vimy Ridge (spl?) when you fought in that campaign and battle yourself, virtually.


i can't agree more
By slickr on 1/13/2007 5:59:23 AM , Rating: 1
And not just in US but in europe as well.
For example why learn history from boring 400 pages books, when you can learn from watching a documentary on a 82inch flat TV in the classroom.
For example why learn science from a boring black and white 500 pages book, when you can learn from interesting documentaries with lots of graphical presentation and explanation!
Though the current-OLD system has not still failed, it is being failing little by little.
For example why waste 1 or 2 hours on a subject in a day and
totally 7-8 hours a day when you can watch a documentary which lasts 30 minutes, so 7 subjects a day that last 30 minutes thats 3 and a half hours. That way you will have more time to study home, and use the other time for doing your everyday things and just have more time to go out and hang out and stuff!
I mean come on, the world has changed so much, no-one finds todays 7-8 hours of school interesting. It woubd be great if
students find at least 1 horur/subject interesting from the total of 7-8 hours. So not only that every student looses interest and pays very little attention to the teaching but he wastes that time just siting there.
So yeah, the classrooms and schools/universities/etc.. should be more tech, more interactive in terms of survery of students and what they want to be changed or added and professors teachings should be based on modern ways of presentating and teaching the material to students!




RE: i can't agree more
By Pythias on 1/13/2007 7:46:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
For example why waste 1 or 2 hours on a subject in a day and
totally 7-8 hours a day when you can watch a documentary which lasts 30 minutes, so 7 subjects a day that last 30 minutes thats 3 and a half hours. That way you will have more time to study home, and use the other time for doing your everyday things and just have more time to go out and hang out and stuff!


Because no thirty minute video can cover the same amount of subject matter.


Depends
By Nik00117 on 1/12/2007 12:20:03 PM , Rating: 2
Ok it really depends...

I take several PC courses and if I listen to music I completely forgot what I just read.

However if i'm taking a math test and I got my MP3 player I seem to do a LOT BETTER.

So this have some truth but if i'm rocking out to Korn or osmthing in History class well my teacher is giving a lecture on the civil war i'm not going get much about of the civil war.




An idiot
By mindless1 on 1/12/2007 9:02:12 PM , Rating: 2
He's an idiot. Today's workforce DID play video games when younger. Innovative ignorance is not bliss.




Shaffer in fantasy land.
By crystal clear on 1/13/2007 3:22:41 AM , Rating: 2
Quote-
"One of Shaffer's primary concerns is that he feels U.S. students are falling behind compared to students in rising countries such as China and India"

Unquote-

I know India & china very well indeed.I have travelled for years to these regions & sometimes stayed for extended periods of time.
I know these countries very well.
Example- India
*They learn the old fashioned ways-Tried & Trusted-the British system(old).

*They work hard living in poverty to educate the children-
to give them a bright future.In short the kids have Studied
their way out of poverty.

*They had No computers/games/software etc-They had plain
Notebooks(not computer),Textbooks,A black board & ofcourse
A TEACHER totally committed to his /her profession.

*A simple quality edecational system with totally committed
professionals(teachers/professors) & equally committed students

*You dare not misbehave with your teacher/professor-out you go

*Way back they barely had TVs in their homes-ask Anand Shilpi-What is India????

*Its hard work & dedication that gets you success in your field/profession/edecation etc.

*In short the problem is in the USA itself-its not computers or games ,rather
-Financing School/University education for students-Let it be subsidized by the the Govt.
-A stable & quality education system
-Subsidize educational materials.

*Spend billions on a Educational & Health system & less on
arms development,financing wars,pouring billions into the middle east & else where.

*Stop outsourcing jobs from the USA-This is the MAIN reason
why Student have no motivation to study.
All JOBS go to China/India-WHY?-what about USA citizens-why do you steal their right to earn a living respectfully for COMPANY PROFITS & lower prices.

*Heavy TAXATION is needed on all products from companies that outsource their production/R&D.
Make it attractive to produce in the USA.

*Schaffer is totally out of touch & lives in a fantasy world.




Lets be honest......
By crystal clear on 1/13/2007 3:30:33 AM , Rating: 2
Quote-

Shaffer is currently working on developing educational games that will help students learn about subjects such as history, chemistry, physics and other topics

Unquote-

Shaffer wants to makes a few million/billion $$$$$$$$$$-
Thats his prime motive & concern.
what people dont do TO GET RICH the FAST FOWAR WAY.




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