quote: You and I have to agree on the fact that ATI engineers know what they are doing, if they felt increase feature set richness was the way to go over TMU's then we have to respect their decision.
quote: Derek Perez: We look at today’s news as a positive for the company and there’s a couple of reasons why. Ultimately this leaves us as the only GPU and platform company that will be able to support both AMD and Intel. That’s huge. There’s no other GPU company, no other chipset company that’s going to come close to what we’re offering and that puts us in a really good position right off the bat. If you look at those two pieces of business, GPU and platform technology we’ve got four strong brands, SLI, GeForce, Quadro, and nForce which we’re all right now winning versus ATI everywhere across the board and I think you guys will agree with that.
quote: That's is simply your opinion of what you think consumers want, different strokes for different folks, some people actually perfer image quality and not have to put up with so many issues with Nvidia's AF this generation.
quote: Well 80% larger die size, for Angle Indepedent AF, and OpenEXR HDR + MSAA, as well as assorted items may not be worth it IYO, but that doesn't make it a bad decision overall
quote: I actually personally like the fact ATI is giving us a different mix rather then just an emphasis on speed at any cost, I don't want a Nvidia clone thanks. You made your views clear, just buy Nvidia it's as simple as that.
quote: the issue this generation they have are effective mainstream GPU's. They used the RV530 as a testbed for the 3:1 ratio used in R580, but that GPU wasn't much of an improvement performance wise over Nvidia 6600 GT so their mainstream suffered, though that wasn't suprising.
Nvidia grew discrete mobile segment share from 25.0% in Q1 2006 to 36.7% in Q2 2006. ATI’s segment share fell from 74.6% in Q1 2006 to 63.1% in Q2 2006.
These are the 2 discrete sections which have the largest impact on discrete marketshare.
The terms discrete in my article does cover all GPU that go into a computer as a AIB, IGP's don't count as there Intel holds more marketshare then ATI or Nvidia.
Overall Nvidia and ATI are very comparable, 80% is way dreamed out figure and unless you provide a direct link it's all your guesswork and a very misleading one at that.
Again all the evidence you provide is worthless, HardForum represents mostly enthusiasts and people "in the know", so a small fraction of the market. Tigerdirect is only 1 online retailer.
And the steam survey? At least be consistent, that includes Intel IGP's so there are non discrete units in that share, and if you wanna use those, ATI wins by having 27.6% vs Nvidia's 20.3% with IGP included shares.
So none of what your provided is worth anything.
quote: The majority of sales figures don't support your argument, they actually say for laptops it's ATI and for desktops, its Nvidia mildly, and overall it's going to be Intel if you include IGP's. So try again on that front.
quote: Nvidia's AF algorithm is not as good as ATI's on the G7x generation, there are alot of issues, Nvidia typically takes large hits with AF, as well as having shimmering issues. There is nothing superior about Nvidia's AF this generation.
quote: If you read my post before, Half Life doesn't count becuase of the way I worded my statement. Moving on, OpenEXR HDR + MSAA is quite useful on the games that can use it, it is worth it for the people who want it, as said just becuase you don't care for it doesn't mean other don't want it, ATI can do something now today, that Nvidia can't enhancing image quality, not even the faster 7950GX2 can do it.
quote: X800 GTO's and X850 XT's are pretty damn large dies themsleves, so I don't know if that is so great or whatever, as well they were doing a firesale on R4xx hardware to prepare for R5xx stuff, hence the low prices on that stuff.
quote: I am saying some consumers perfer image quality over pure performance, ATI addresses that segement of the market.
quote: Depends the X1800 GTO was basically the only choice ATI had in the meantime with the dies they had available then the R580, R520 and RV530. They made a concession on the mid range GPU, to test out a high end configuration, and it bit them in the ass a bit when Nvidia introduced a mid range GPU which was 1/2 the G71 instead 1/4 of the R580 like the RV530 is. Luckily that didn't happen till after the X1900's were released.
quote: You want 80% faster for 80% increase die space with increased feature set? Well sorry not going to happen your asking for the impossible you will not get increased featureset and maintain the same performance efficiency for die area, as a architecture with less. Yes the OpenEXR HDR + MSAA is related to die area, as the ROP's have to be enhanced in order to handle it. Features cost die space, it's a very simple concept. Again what you want isn't relevant, as what you ask can't be done as ATI is preparing for the future this generation
quote: Go look at the steam survey. Latest it's from March 06 to April 06. It's showing 28,000 7800 series cards and 2,000 X1800 and another 2000 X1600. Grand total of 4,000 X1k vs 28,000 7800 class. So in that case, Nvidia commands greatly more than 80% of this generation of cards. And that reporting period is almost done, this cards are head to head competitors for that time period past.
quote: I already told you my definition of discrete. What I mean are cards that somebody goes out and buys. Not IGP, etc. In THOSE CARDS (not sure what they're called, you tell me?) I sincerely believe Nvidia has 80% market share, and I think you probably know it too. And those are really the real battleground anyway, those are where people are making a choice (as opposed to locked into OEM contracts that take great time to shift) and also where profits are highest.
quote: How about this "Nvidia has 88% of SM3 market"
quote: How can you say this with a straight face? You and I both know ATI is losing momemtum big time in EVERY. MARKET. SEGMENT. Nvidia mildly in desktops..and gaining. ATI in laptops..and losing. Intel: completely irrelevant, please dont bring them up to try to make yourself look better. We're discussing ATI vs Nvidia and only ATI vs Nvidia.
quote: Yes, it is. Nvidia does not take a large hit with AF. All benchmarks are typically run with AF on and Nvidia competes very well, thanks. There is no large hit with AF on Nvidia cards. There are alledgedly some shimmering issues but apparantly, people still buy the cards in droves. The people have spoken. ATI has plenty of their own IQ issues. On balance you cannot say ATI has better IQ than Nvidia.
What is your argument? That ATI is making the choices consumers dont want and losing market share in every segment? If so, then yes. Sales figures support your argument.
They were 15% smaller than NV40 dies that they directly competed with, and were generally faster than. The polar opposite of ATI today in other words. How hard is this to understand? THE X850 was a DIRECT COMPETITOR VERSUS 6800 ULTRA. IT WAS SMALLER. IT WAS JUST AS FAST OR FASTER. DO I NEED A FRICKEN DICTIONARY TO GET ACROSS THE MOST BASIC OF FRICKEN CONCEPTS HERE.
quote: Well, we already know it's buggy and irrelevant and only a couple games support it. Beyond that, we only know tha you like it, and that apparantly consumers dont find it a compelling feature in it's current incarnation (as I dont, it's simply not supported enough).
quote: Who says ATI has better image quality? Proof? Further, it really doesn't matter if MORE consumers prefer cards that are faster with lower IQ. Which we have established, they do by huge numbers.
I guess Ford should come out with a new car that runs very quietly but only gets ten miles to the gallon. Then when consumers stay away from it in droves, Ford can tell them what to think. That they should prefer a smoother ride and quieter engine instead of prefering a car that is still decent in those areas, but also happens to get 30 MPG.
That again and again is the crux of our debate. You are trying to tell me what is "right" or somehow "better" in GPU's. When it's bullshit and down to personal preference. FOR ME AND YOU BUT NOT ATI. ATI BETTER SELL CARDS.
quote: Blah blah. Everything I said is exactly correct. Why are you wasting your words? You cannot argue with the obvious truth: ATI doesn't have a good 7600 GT competitor. Because it's one more side effect of the fact their architecture sucks, and is too big to compete in that segment and be cost effective. Period. Please, stop talking about this.
quote: WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
I'm going to scream.
Preparing for the future..so they'll be a lot faster than Nvidia in the future right?
THEN WHAT THE FUCK GOOD DID IT DO THEM?