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Print 155 comment(s) - last by MikeGk2.. on Aug 30 at 10:19 PM

If you don't have a 64-bit processor, don't bother

If any of you out there were planning on adding a Blu-ray or HD DVD drive to your PC in the near future to playback high-definition content on your PC, you're going to be out of luck with a 32-bit processor and the upcoming 32-bit version of Windows Vista. Microsoft Senior Program Manager Steve Riley made the announcement today during Tech.Ed 2006 in Sydney Australia.

“Any next-generation high definition content will not play in x32 at all. This is a decision that the Media Player folks made because there are just too many ways right now for unsigned kernel mode code [to compromise content protection]. The media companies asked us to do this and said they don’t want any of their high definition content to play in x32 at all, because of all of the unsigned malware that runs in kernel mode can get around content protection, so we had to do this,” said Riley.

In order to playback high definition Blu-ray or HD DVD content, your PC must have a 64-bit processor and a 64-bit version of Windows Vista. Running a 64-bit version of Vista means that all drivers have to be signed. This ensures that content protection is kept in place and is something that the movie studios have been pushing for to get help stomp out piracy.

Although AMD has been pushing 64-bit AMD Athlon 64 and Turion 64 processors for quite some time in the consumer space, it wasn’t until recently that Intel made a large push for 64-bit in the consumer space with the launch of its Core 2 Duo processors for desktop and mobile platforms.

Update 08/25/2006:  Microsoft PR manager Adam Anderson tells CNET that the original statement made by Riley is partially incorrect and, "It is up to the ISVs providing playback solutions to determine whether the intended playback environment, including environments with a 32-bit CPU, meets the performance requirements to allow high-definition playback while supporting the guidelines set forth by the content owners.  No version of Windows Vista will make a determination as to whether any given piece of content should play back or not."  

However, even Anderson is not correcting Riley's statement that WMP11 will not play Blu-ray or HD DVD content.  Instead he claims support will come from 3rd party vendors like Cyberlink. 


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ugh....
By Souka on 8/24/2006 1:45:05 PM , Rating: 5
ugh... I don't like the sound of this... rahter, I don't like being told I have to buy a new systems AND OS to use HD/BR media.

:(





RE: ugh....
By Tebor0 on 8/24/2006 1:50:33 PM , Rating: 5
This is all we've been told from the start of HD/BR. Buy a new tv, buy a new monitor, buy new cables, buy new copies of your movies, buy a 'cheap' (lol) PS3, buy Vista64!

Buy buy buy.. get less less less.


RE: ugh....
By RMSistight on 8/24/06, Rating: 0
RE: ugh....
By RandomFool on 8/24/2006 2:42:49 PM , Rating: 5
Good think I listened to you kept my 16 bit processor.


RE: ugh....
By lemonadesoda on 8/24/2006 7:08:24 PM , Rating: 2
Would you recommend I upgrade my 6502? I was considering going to 16bit, but I hear the software is more expensive. And the CPU gets a bit hot.


RE: ugh....
By peternelson on 8/24/2006 10:06:05 PM , Rating: 2
Upgrade to a 6809 that is far superior to your 6502. Besides 6502 has bugs in some microcode (errata). 6809 should easily decode 0.025 frames per second, if used in conjunction with a modern graphics card.

Anyway I think this is EXCELLENT as it will motivate the whole industry to migrate to 64 bit processors and 64 bit OS rather than the 32 bit rubbish intel was pushing out until lately (and continues to with pre-merom laptops). This will finally give people a compelling reason to buy 64 bit systems.

It also will encourage people not to run vista 32 but rather 64.

Also being cynical I could say it is a strategy for Microsoft to insist you move from XP to Vista (I doubt they will release bluray capability for XP64).

On the other hand, as a driver writer, it is VERY BAD that I have to go through the bother of getting M$oft to test and approve my drivers, for use with my own hardware, on my systems. Probably the only way around that is using some "middleware" intermediate driver like jungo which could be signed but take commands from me.

I can see the argument about content, but honestly, there are many ways to still intercept the content for piracy. For example acquire and recode the pixels after decryption in a cannibalised display device or HDCP module.

This move might also limit the availability of legitimate bluray/hddvd decode software to run on linux platform (possibly mac too, any confirmation?)


RE: ugh....
By cgrecu77 on 8/24/2006 11:28:02 PM , Rating: 2
actually it's a useless move, i'm sure linux will get hd support sooner rather than later, no need to canibalize anything ... however, if the move to hd media is successful we can all say goodbye to pirated movies ... Actually I can't wait until that happens to see how the movie companies will justify decreasing revenues ... I gave up downloading movies anyway ever since I found zip.ca (netflix for canadians). For 25 bucks per months I get 11 movies which is more than enough. It's true that I copy all those movies, but the reality is there are few movies worth seeing more than once so it wouldn't be a huge deal if I couldn't do that.

One thing I don't understand is why can't they apply for movies the same principle as for books. It's not like the movie studios make a shitload of money from most older movies. After all, in many respects movies can be seen as a educational tool. Not to mention that book rights expire after 50 years and for most inventions sooner than that. I mean even drug rights expire in less than 25 years, and companies put billions in R&D for them. Why should movies/music be copyrighted forever, I think 20 years is plenty of time to recoup your investments. Art should not be expensive if we want to live in a better world ...


RE: ugh....
By jmunjr on 8/25/2006 12:20:38 AM , Rating: 2
There is a difference between a copyright and a patent. Inventions have patents. Movies and other creative works have copyrights.


RE: ugh....
By cgrecu77 on 8/25/2006 12:05:23 PM , Rating: 2
technically there is, but conceptual they are the same. And books are copyrighted too, right? But only for 50 years as far as I know (in the US at least).


RE: ugh....
By Targon on 8/25/2006 7:43:51 AM , Rating: 2
I went with the 65816 when I upgraded, and havn't looked back since.


RE: ugh....
By exdeath on 8/25/2006 10:23:45 AM , Rating: 2
Yay for 65816! <3 SNES the best game console ever made.

lda #$07
sta $2105


RE: ugh....
By Hoser McMoose on 8/25/2006 3:29:33 PM , Rating: 2
6502?! You must be some sort of Motorola Fanboi! Everyone knows that the 8051 pwns the 6502!!!

Intel 8051 is teh Roxors! Motorola Suxors!!!

:)


RE: ugh....
By peternelson on 8/27/2006 11:25:01 PM , Rating: 2
How are you calling me a Motorola fanboi.

I also have teh great Zilog Z80A based machines!

CPM and OS9 operating system Ownz0r teh Vista and contain none of teh sux0r DRM.


RE: ugh....
By GoatMonkey on 8/25/2006 9:48:10 AM , Rating: 2
I just hope Vista has drivers for my punch card reader.



RE: ugh....
By RapidSnail on 8/24/2006 6:38:19 PM , Rating: 2
It's not like it was that hard to predict...


RE: ugh....
By BladeVenom on 8/24/2006 2:50:32 PM , Rating: 5
I hope both formats fail just like DVD-Adio and SACD. Perhaps the next format to be adopted will be online downloads like with music, or holographic discs. Holographic storage sounds like a big enough jump in capacity to make the switch worthwhile. Unitl then DVDs are good enough for me, being far cheaper and more convenient.


RE: ugh....
By abhaxus on 8/25/2006 3:14:55 AM , Rating: 2
I hope you aren't suggesting that downloaded music a la itunes was somehow a better distribution method than dvd-a or sacd. until servers are no longer bandwidth limited (and consumers as well) download formats for high definition video and high resolution audio simply won't be feasible. Every song I've ever heard downloaded off a commercial site sounds terrible, at least the ones off p2p networks give you a choice in sound quality with even the highest bitrates still leaving a lot to be desired.

it breaks my heart that SACD and DVD-A failed. I love my high res audio discs. I love the new HD DVD formats as well and hope that the two standards are merged very soon so that they can be successful.


RE: ugh....
By TheDoc9 on 8/24/2006 6:18:52 PM , Rating: 2
"Buy buy buy.. get less less less"

Thats exactly right. The only thing you get is increased resolution. In any case this is a terrible anouncement. I truly believe that microsoft is on it's way out, at least in the sense of how things are now. Microsofts entire position will probably be completly restructured in 5 years, similar to IBM.


RE: ugh....
By cgrecu77 on 8/24/06, Rating: 0
RE: ugh....
By Armorize on 8/24/2006 4:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
chear up souka, where theres a b0x theres a way. of course...theres always xp-64....laugh...


RE: ugh....
By Armorize on 8/24/2006 4:57:37 PM , Rating: 3
chear up souka, where theres a b0x theres a way. of course...theres always xp-64....laugh... and then theres open source =0


RE: ugh....
By gudodayn on 8/24/2006 9:23:46 PM , Rating: 2
Just chill~~~~~
Its MS.......someone out there will crack sooner or later!!!


RE: ugh....
By S3anister on 8/24/2006 11:36:31 PM , Rating: 2
your fault for buying intel in the age of Athlon 64...
and by that i mean pre core 2


RE: ugh....
By captchaos2 on 8/25/2006 12:50:50 AM , Rating: 2
Haven't they already crippled vista enough?


RE: ugh....
By MrSmurf on 8/25/2006 10:43:43 AM , Rating: 2
Blame the millions of pirates out there too cheap to buy a $15 DVD; who bitch about $10 CDs being too expensive.

Then again, who cares? Watching a movie on a PC isn't a major deal to 90% of the population.


RE: ugh....
By Tewt on 8/25/2006 11:51:37 AM , Rating: 2
Or is this because DRM is causing so much overhead now that it requires a more powerful processor? Wasn't there a study or test done by a hacker that showed how much extra processing DRM is causing? Even though the crack made it out to the internet, he had told everyone not to use it and was trying to prove a point about one of the drawbacks about DRM. Can't remember where I read that.


it won't really bother anyone
By dgingeri on 8/24/2006 3:09:28 PM , Rating: 1
reasons it won't really bother anyone:
1. Blu-ray and HD-DVD offer no image improvement over standard DVD because the TV don't offer that kind of improvement. if it doesn't display, how can it ba called an improvement. In order to get that type of improvement, you'd have to have a 100-120" TV. PC monitors would have to have a resolution to the point of atomic pixels in order to display that kind of resolution.

2. Most people watching a Blu-ray or HD-DVD movie won't be watching it on a computer. They would be watching it on their HDTV's. Even if it won't display the image improvment they say, people will always listen to the marketing, but will rarely do extra steps to watch a movie such at setting it up on a computer. Most people are too lazy to watch a movie on a computer.

3. in the end, it can always be hacked. there will alwasy be the people that claim that they can see the difference in HD video and will go about hacking their way so they can see it anyway. No matter what protection they put up, it will be hacked.

All in all, I will continue to buy my basic DVD's for movies and will not buy into the garbage of HD-DVD or Blu-ray. They offer me nothing. I could see the difference between VHS and DVD, so I got a DVD player and bought my movies on DVD. I then proceeded to back up all my movies to DVD-R and only actually play the DVD-R copies, to protect the originals. The tripe of HD video is absolutely worthless. This is one gadget that I will not buy into.

Besides, with the way HD-DVD and Blu-ray work, it won't be long and the only movies you can buy will be limited showing disks, where they'll play for a certain number of times, and then you have to buy another in order to watch it again. I will not be tied down to the movie and music industries' greedy plots.

Resist them. They have sued too many people and proved their intent. To comply with them would doom us all.




RE: it won't really bother anyone
By Lifted on 8/24/2006 3:42:04 PM , Rating: 2
I guess my 19" 1280x1024 LCD has "atomic pixels" since it can display 1280x720 HD content. Who knew!


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By dgingeri on 8/24/2006 5:03:43 PM , Rating: 1
I have a 20" wide screen LCD monitor that can display up to 1680X1050. It's quite nice. I play standard DVD's on it all the time, since I don't own a TV. My point is that standard DVD's play up to 1600X1200 (or cropped to the proper aspect ratio) with ease and higher with mild pixelation. The HD-DVD and Blu Ray content is for resolutions up to 6400X4800, which is abolutely unnecessary. Even the best TV's can't display that high.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By Lifted on 8/24/2006 6:05:44 PM , Rating: 2
Where do you get your info from, the sales boy at BestBuy? I don't even know how to respond to this.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By s12033722 on 8/25/2006 10:32:06 AM , Rating: 2
No. Completely incorrect. Sure, you can play a DVD on a 1680x1050 display, but the DVD is only putting out 480p. 480p has only 480x854 resolution or 480x640 depending on the aspect ratio. The largest high-def standard currently supported is 1080p, which is 1920x1080. HD-DVD and Blu Ray both support 1080p. I have no idea where you came up with 6400x4800.


By NoSoftwarePatents on 8/25/2006 11:24:45 AM , Rating: 2
He meant to say 640X480, not 6400X4800.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By kkwst2 on 8/24/2006 3:52:05 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, do you have an HDTV? I can't see how you can say this if you own an HDTV. You can EASILY tell the difference between DVD material and HD 720p material on a 42" 480p EDTV from around 10 feet. I have a good DVD player and it doesn't come close to a cable HD movie even though my plasma is only 480p. Once you're used to HD, DVD looks pretty crappy in my opinion.

On a true HDTV, the difference should be more dramatic. You're welcome to continue buying DVD movies if you're happy with them, but don't try to say that there is no difference, because there is.

As for not supporting their schemes, I agree. I wouldn't buy movies that are restricted to certain numbers of plays. However, I rarely buy movies, usually rent as there are very few movies I feel are worth watching once, let alone more than once.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By s12033722 on 8/24/2006 3:59:34 PM , Rating: 2
Ummm - you can get 1080p (full 1920x1080 resolution at 60 fps) in a 37 inch TV. We have a 58" 1080p TV at home and you certainly can see the difference.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By PurdueRy on 8/24/2006 4:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
WTF are you talking about? Atomic sized pixels?

1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 is considered HD. Many computer monitors will display one of these formats. But I guess I was unaware that these monitors have atomic sized pixels!

DVD is 480i natively(720x480). It doesn't take a math genius to see the increase in quality between this and HD. Now, do I think its worth the cost at this point...heck no. The headaches DRM is causing and the still shaky war between Blu Ray and HD-DVD should make almost all consumers stay away at this point.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By Shadowself on 8/24/2006 4:08:38 PM , Rating: 4
This is idiocy at its most extreme.

"reasons it won't really bother anyone:
1. Blu-ray and HD-DVD offer no image improvement over standard DVD because the TV don't offer that kind of improvement. if it doesn't display, how can it ba called an improvement."

No image improvement with over 6 times the pixels and the ability to do lossless audio over 7.1 or better? That sure seems like a huge improvement to me.

"In order to get that type of improvement, you'd have to have a 100-120" TV."

B. You don't need a 100+" screen to see the difference between 1080p HD and standard NTSC. Go to any store having actual 1080p hooked up (not some upscaled DVD input!) to a 40+ inch screen that actually displays 1080p and then have then switch it to NTSC showing on the exact same screen. You'll see the difference immediately (unless you badly need new glasses!)



"PC monitors would have to have a resolution to the point of atomic pixels in order to display that kind of resolution."

C. The average person, with good vision, sees at about 150 microradian resolution. At the typical monitor distance of 0.5 meters this puts the limit of typical vision at about 340 dpi. Know of any reason why you need "atomic pixels" to do that???

Some people can actually see better than 25 microradian resolution under certain conditions. This puts the dpi on a computer screen at over 2,000. When monitors get to better than that resolution then you can say no one can see the difference!

Both Apple and Dell ship monitors that do 2560x1600 (well over the HD spec of 1920x1080) yet only come to about 100 dpi. IBM ships one that is 3840 x 2400 and still its only about 200 dpi. There is a LOT more resolution that can be crammed in before they reach the limits of what people can actually see, and even more before we have to worry about "atomic pixels".



"2. Most people watching a Blu-ray or HD-DVD movie won't be watching it on a computer."

True. But then the people who post in this forum are NOT "most people".


"They would be watching it on their HDTV's. Even if it won't display the image improvment they say, people will always listen to the marketing, ..."

As I mention above, people CAN see the difference. The image improvement can be displayed.



"but will rarely do extra steps to watch a movie such at setting it up on a computer. Most people are too lazy to watch a movie on a computer."

What extra steps? If the computer supports HD DVD or Blu-ray Disk media all you have to do is drop in the the disk and away you go.



"3. in the end, it can always be hacked. there will alwasy be the people that claim that they can see the difference in HD video and will go about hacking their way so they can see it anyway. No matter what protection they put up, it will be hacked."

True, virtually everything except quantum entanglement encryption can be hacked. (Someday someone might figure out how to crack that too.) That's just life.



"All in all, I will continue to buy my basic DVD's for movies and will not buy into the garbage of HD-DVD or Blu-ray. <snip>

"<snip> I will not be tied down to the movie and music industries' greedy plots.

"Resist them. They have sued too many people and proved their intent. To comply with them would doom us all."

Now, now. Take your medicine. Put your aluminum foil hat on. Sit quietly in the corner. Don't bother us again.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By dgingeri on 8/24/2006 5:24:29 PM , Rating: 1
You call me an idiot, yet you yourself don't seem to understand the arguement here. Standard DVD's can play back at the resolution of the highest resolution HDTV's, so why is there need to have higher resolution content with HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are made to display resolution up to 6400X4800. Where are you going to get a TV for that? Standard DVD's are just fine for what we have and anything we will have in the future. There simply is no reason for home entertainment systems to have 6400X4800 resolution, and little reason to have that on computers.

The 1680X1050 my monitor does is quite nice for HDTV and DVD playback.

On top of that, yes, maybe for about $30,000 we might get 70" TV's with 6400X4800 resolution in about 15-20 years. Why would you want it other than bragging rights? It's like bragging aobut 200-300fps on Quake 3, totally useless. you couldn't even tell the difference unless you were 3 feet from it, and who would be watching a small part of the tv at that range? A 1080p HDTV that we have today will do just fine in the future.

There is no reason to push people to buy movies and TV's all over again.

Computers are a slightly different story, as they have actual improvements over the years that are noticable to human beings.

you don't seem to realize what this is going to do. The music and movie industries have been trying to do this for a while now. They have been working to get a format that is writable so that it can be automatically deactivated after a certain number of plays.

I would like to watch a movie more than 3 times before it is deacvated after I spent $30 on it. I would like to listen to my CD's more than 15 times (that may sound like a lit, but it's not) after I spent $20 on it. That is the direction they are going with this. They are 'easing into it' so that people don't protest to much. Their litmus test has been these experiments with 'disposable' DVD's and CD's that 'in like renting but you don't have to return them'. Their lawsuits are to keep us from being able to bypass that and transfer it to a different media that they can't control.

They hate the MP3 format because it's not under their control, so they invent things like 'content protection' which is nothing but more of the same.

Mark my words: in 20 years, if we don't do something to resist them, we will be stuck with only 'disposable' media that the music and movie industries control and we will be severely limited in the number of times it can be played and the number of people that can be listening or watching at the time. the studios will make a mint, the artists, actors, directors, writers, etc will make very little. We will be fleeced for as much as they can get from us. (as if that last part isn't already here with freaking $20, 8 song CD's.)


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By PurdueRy on 8/24/2006 6:36:06 PM , Rating: 2
Um, what DVD's go up to the highest resolution of HDTV's?

That's the whole point of HD-DVD and Blu Ray! DVD's are STANDARD DEFINITION NATIVELY. AKA 480i. They do not go higher than that unless "upconverted" which is just a way at increasing the PQ slightly.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By rrsurfer1 on 8/24/2006 8:59:11 PM , Rating: 2
Dude. Calm down and do a little reading before you speak. You really are coming across as an idiot. What are you talking about "DVD's can play back at the resolution of the highest resolution HDTV's"?

The absolute highest resolution you can obtain would be on a PAL DVD: 720 × 576 pixels. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD]

The highest res HDTV's go to 1920 x 1080.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV]

That is much higher than DVD, and hence the REASON for BluRay and HDDVD.

Maybe your confused because you can play DVD's on HDTVs. The reason for that is the TV scales the signal up to the resolution it needs, but your not seeing true HD resolution from the DVD.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By xsilver on 8/25/2006 9:16:29 AM , Rating: 2
lol
you cant tell someone who is ignorant realize they are ignorant simply by telling them so....
they have to realize it for themselves

but in the meantime you can only laugh and sigh....
whats really sad is that instead of regular ignorant people that make absolutley no sense in english it appears this persons english isnt half bad.
baiter?


By stinkfister98 on 8/25/2006 10:24:48 AM , Rating: 2
Ohhh.... I just figured out why you are confused. The quality of the image on the Blue Ray disk is much better than DVD it's not just the same image with increased resolution. It's like VHS to DVD or cassette tape to CD.

The film masters that most movies are stored on have to be 'digitized' into a resolution for the format. Assuming the same size frame of film being transfered a higher resolution will give you a sharper picture.

Think digital cameras, or scanners and how higher resolution capture devices give better pictures. You look the same in real life but your picture will look much different with a 1 megapixel camera vs. an 8 megapixel camera.


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By RMTimeKill on 8/24/2006 5:03:44 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously this poster is legaly blind and deaf, or wears coke bottle glasses and hearing aids, that once removed, make rosie o'donnel (spelling) look hawt!

Probably runs 640x480 resolution with large font/icons turned on, and complains about the test being too small...

There is a HUGE difference between SDTV and HDTV, but for those people who think a 27" analog tv is a "big deal!", then they are going to be in trouble when the VHS/VCRs finally run out of stock... Get into the modern times! The world isnt going to wait for you to get over your fear of evolving technology!

The other thing is people complaing about price... I had so many people say, well 20 years ago when I bought my RCA (Really Crappy Apperatus) it was only $250, why would I pay $1000 for a TV now?!! Uhm... its called "inflation", the same reason the new car you bought 20 years ago was 10k and now its 40k...


By RMTimeKill on 8/24/2006 5:04:50 PM , Rating: 2
*text

wheres the damn edit button? >.<


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By dgingeri on 8/24/2006 5:26:13 PM , Rating: 1
I know there's a big difference in the TV's idiot. That's a forgone conclusion. I was referring to the resolution of the disk content. Why can't you people actually read the damn post properly? Do you have a reading level of a typical high schooler?


RE: it won't really bother anyone
By Lifted on 8/24/2006 6:27:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I was referring to the resolution of the disk content.


Yes, and you seem to think...

quote:
The HD-DVD and Blu Ray content is for resolutions up to 6400X4800, which is abolutely unnecessary.


You do realize that 6400x4800 is about 15x the highest HD resolution of 1920x1080. At the resolution you seem to think HD is, we would get about 10 minutes of content on an HD disc.


By stinkfister98 on 8/25/2006 10:03:13 AM , Rating: 2
I’m apparently about to help you have a huge epiphany.

The resolution of the images (frames of the movie) that make up the film on your DVD are 720 X 480 or thereabouts. You can stretch or upconvert that onto any resolution monitor or tv that you want, but the resolution of that disk will always be 720 X 480.

HD-DVDs and Blue ray movies are stored on the disks at 1920 X 1080 resolution…

Do you see where I’m going? Think about your desktop wallpaper. If you set a tiny image as your background and stretch it to fit the desktop, guess what, it looks like crap. How to make it look better? Get an image with higher resolution. Think about mega pixels in a camera. Same principle. It’s not the resolution of the display that matters, it the resolution of the source.


ha
By Xorp on 8/24/06, Rating: 0
RE: ha
By Zirconium on 8/24/2006 2:00:46 PM , Rating: 4
How many laptops have HD-DVD or Blu-ray drives? And how many people actually swap out the drive on their laptops?


RE: ha
By Wonga on 8/24/2006 2:01:59 PM , Rating: 2
LOL, you beat me to it. I can't think of anyone who replaces their laptop drives (unless it breaks, that is).


RE: ha
By RyanM on 8/24/2006 8:29:29 PM , Rating: 3
I, for one. I put a slot-load dual-layer DVD burner in my 700m to replace the CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive. Of course, I also yanked up the keyboard to put in more RAM, so I'm not exactly Joe Average User. Regardless, people DO change laptop drives, just not as frequently or often as desktop drives.


RE: ha
By Merry on 8/24/2006 2:02:44 PM , Rating: 2
I take it you cant get external HD drives then? (thats a genuine question btw)


RE: ha
By Crank the Planet on 8/24/2006 11:54:23 PM , Rating: 2
That is a very valid question- will they make external BR/HD drives and with what interface? USB 2.0 or Firewire 400/800? BTW, isn't Toshiba offering laptops now with HD-DVD drives?

Honestly? They will never be able to protect their content. They will only be able to contain it somewhat for a time. My guess is somebody will crack their scheme within the first year.




RE: ha
By MrSmurf on 8/25/2006 10:52:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They will never be able to protect their content. They will only be able to contain it somewhat for a time.


Yes, tell that to be people who still haven't cracked DRM...

Unless you count playing the file and recording it on the fly cracking.


RE: ha
By freon on 8/24/2006 2:05:38 PM , Rating: 2
Since I watch more movies on my laptop then I ever will, or ever plan to watch on my desktop, I would consider swapping it out if the price isn't too crazy. (yes, it has an A64)


RE: ha
By Lazarus Dark on 8/24/2006 2:13:27 PM , Rating: 4
^ my thought exactly. just let me know when its all hackd so i can actually use those high def coasters they're selling instead of hanging the pretty discs on my wall. cause as far as i can tell, paying customers aren't allowed to actually view the movies they purchase. i think its a conspiracy, there is no high definition, its all a big scam. is there even anything actually on these so called highdef discs? hmmmm...


RE: ha
By RandomFool on 8/24/2006 2:46:27 PM , Rating: 5
Heh, Pretty soon we won't even be allowed to own a disk, we'll just a download a large file we can't open without inputting a sample of blood, urine and brain tissue. Nevermind what you'll have to go through if you actually want to watch a movie.


RE: ha
By peternelson on 8/24/2006 10:19:48 PM , Rating: 2
In a few decades,

Piracy will be defeated.

They will have placed the HDCP decryption keys into a chip module connected to your optic nerve and embedded in your head.

The encrypted pictures are beamed wirelessly into your head and only you can watch them. You pay a one-time fee to have the chip inserted followed by pay-per view on all content. Optionally your government may pay the chips fees for you if you have it implanted at birth since it can double as an ID card for travel visas read by RFID.

A special low-rate discount is available for all content received using your own eyeballs and passed to your optical cortex as a pass through feature of the chip.

This will be done after they realise that putting the so-called secure decoder in the TV was a flawed plan that was easily overcome. Besides HDCP is vulnerable to cryptographic attacks if they are ever stupid enough to deploy it. Only a small number of keys need be compromised to make it significantly easier to undermine.




RE: ha
By FoxFour on 8/25/2006 12:15:52 AM , Rating: 2
I presume this implant will also have some behavioral control capabilities... say, for instance, to stop that pesky finger from pulling the trigger on that very large handgun pressed up against one's skull? 'Cause that just wouldn't do, you know. Too many paying viewers might be lost.




RE: ha
By peternelson on 8/25/2006 1:16:01 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe so, but I think it will have the control to stop you fast-forward skipping past ad breaks.


RE: ha
By blazeoptimus on 8/24/2006 2:13:51 PM , Rating: 2
It doesnt make a differenct which laptop you have, for the most part. Nearly all laptops produced dont support HDCP to an external monitor, or there internal screen. So whether its an TurionX2(64bit) or a Core Duo(32bit) your still most likely out of luck. How many HD-DVD or Blue-Ray media based moves are going to produced without hdcp on it? Probably next to none.


RE: ha
By RMSistight on 8/24/2006 2:16:52 PM , Rating: 2
Actually I just swapped out my crappy DVD-R 2x burner for a Samsung dual layer dual format 8X burner.


RE: ha
By NullSubroutine on 8/24/2006 5:31:29 PM , Rating: 1
I personally plan to upgrade my dvd drive with HDDVD or BlueRay so I can watch movies at more native 1920x1200 resolution.


Some way around it
By AMDZen on 8/24/2006 2:31:38 PM , Rating: 5
I'm sure someone, somewhere will find a way around it by taking the 64-bit code and modifying it to run on 32-bit processors on 32-bit versions of vista. Just like all of the DRM schemeing MS is doing with the MPAA/RIAA is going to get hacked.

Haven't PC people learned this already? Everything Microsoft has tried to do has been valiently hacked by people the world over. WGA which includes IE7, WMP11 and so on, we're all hacked and very easily too. Even Xbox360, who so many have said was unhackable, has been hacked. Almost every rom drive now has hacked firmware to played backed up games, imports, and what have you.

I'm not worried because a) my processor is 64-bit, and b) I won't be getting Vista until everything is hacked to death any way - so this doesn't bother me in the slightest




RE: Some way around it
By mendocinosummit on 8/24/06, Rating: 0
RE: Some way around it
By cplusplus on 8/24/2006 2:51:27 PM , Rating: 3
So no one should bother with trying to protect their content because it's just going to get hacked anyway? Never really understood that argument. To me, it's like saying we should get rid of gun control laws because people can get guns anyway.


RE: Some way around it
By kondor999 on 8/24/2006 3:01:03 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, that is a very good argument for doing away with such laws. Laws in and of themselves mean nothing.

Inter armes, silent leges


RE: Some way around it
By glennpratt on 8/24/2006 3:02:40 PM , Rating: 2
EXACTLY!

You do realize that this is the exact argument of gun owners. Have you never seen the bumper stickers? "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Think about it for a second.

Now really, I support some gun control and I don't want to go off topic, but this was a very poor argument by you. The argument against DRM is it's a hassle for consumers and does little to stop thieves. Personally, I don't mind DRM, but I thought it would be handled correctly (i.e. within the bounds of fair use laws) but it isn't and that is what upsets me.


RE: Some way around it
By peternelson on 8/24/2006 10:30:06 PM , Rating: 2
I'd be willing to accept some form of DRM regime PROVIDED when my MEDIA breaks I can get the MEDIA replaced for the cost of the MEDIA without REBUYING the content!

That even goes for music CDs already. If I bought the content license with the disk, then if I scratch the disk, I still have the license right? So sell me a replacement disk for $0.20 and that will be ok.

Do the same with my DVDs, and my Bluray/HDDVD / whatever else you dream up.

THEN I may accept your model of "license" as more valid. Also I want the ability to TRANSFER my license to another person (with the media) without admin fees (like valve steam charges). Like the idea of "selling" a cd implying the owner of the media has a license to use the content or resell it to yet another person.



RE: Some way around it
By cplusplus on 8/25/2006 9:16:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You do realize that this is the exact argument of gun owners. Have you never seen the bumper stickers? "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Think about it for a second.


Here's the thing: I don't agree with that argument either, and for basically the same reasoning (that it shouldn't be easier just because people will do it anyway). If anything, it means that they should enforce the laws more.

quote:
The argument against DRM is it's a hassle for consumers and does little to stop thieves.


And isn't that another one the arguments against gun control, that it is a hassle to legal customers and doesn't stop the illegal ones?


RE: Some way around it
By AMDZen on 8/24/2006 3:16:13 PM , Rating: 2
Yes thats pretty much what I'm saying. ALthough I agree when it comes to some things, most of the time its a waste.

Why should companies be spending millions on DRM protection schemes, thus inflating the cost of their media? Basically, these companies are complaining that these so called "pirates" are "stealing" their product, and so its these peoples fault that the price is being driven up. But in reality, their driving up their own costs trying things a la Starforce. I mean seriously, either a) that scheme WILL WORK but at the cost of consumers (because those that were shafted by it will stop buying it) usability a la starforce. b) Or it will be the million dollar sony CD fiasco that was bipassed by holding the shift key (or by having auto-play turned off) which was a complete joke.


RE: Some way around it
By LtFarva on 8/24/2006 3:28:41 PM , Rating: 1
DRM makes sense, but isn't it getting a little out of hand for the consumer?

I don't really know they technical details of everything, but is it really necessary to have every piece of hardware be compliant? New monitor, new software, new video card, etc.
It's pretty expensive.

Or is this just me not getting the fact that its new technology and new technology always comes at a premium?


RE: Some way around it
By dice1111 on 8/24/2006 4:15:14 PM , Rating: 2
No, I believe your right. I'm affraid that it will get totally out of control. New tech does usually cost more, but it usually has more features, not less, as this all the DRM is making it out to be.

DRM rant, skip if not interested;

I believe these media and tech companies want to control everything you do/watch/play with, and would control the air we breathe if given the chance. Then they'll charge us top dollar to use it exactly how they tell us to use it. DRM is their tool.

They want money. It's all they care about, nothing else. I doubt intention to listen to the consumer because I feel they see us as the enemy, not their life's blood.

I feel like buying into this DRM laden content is like giving money to nazi's back in WW2 who want control, not to local police who just want to maintain order.

As a comsumer, I want freedom and choice. I want to be able to choose what I buy, and who I buy it from and be able to use it in any manner I wish within reason. I worked hard for the money to buy that product and I want to be able to enjoy it. It seems like these companies want to do anything in their power to take that away so they can make a quick buck.

Sorry for the rant...


RE: Some way around it
By My Croft on 8/24/2006 4:21:46 PM , Rating: 2
Corporations are SUPPOSED to care about nothing but profit. Protecting their content is good business. If that means that HD movies don't become widespread for another year or two, no big deal for them.

If you don't like the situation, keep buying DVDs. No one's going to stop you.


RE: Some way around it
By dice1111 on 8/24/2006 4:39:11 PM , Rating: 2
I don't like it, and i will vote with my dollar.

The problem is, when they stop caring about the people buying their product and rescrict use, people will find other methods to get the satisfaction they crave out of said products. This is bad for the business, as it will contribute to piracy and alternative soucres not supported by the companies in question, which at this point I am becoming a growing supporter of.


RE: Some way around it
By dice1111 on 8/24/2006 4:41:51 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not saying "don't protect the content" I just saying, they shouldn't be a nazi about it.

/edit?


RE: Some way around it
By mendocinosummit on 8/24/2006 7:36:32 PM , Rating: 3
It is called business ethics. Many big corps feel that they are above ethics.


RE: Some way around it
By My Croft on 8/24/2006 4:18:52 PM , Rating: 2
To me, it's like saying we should get rid of gun control laws because people can get guns anyway

No, we should do away with gun control laws because we have a constitutional right to bear arms. The fact that gun control laws just ensure that armed criminals need fear no civilian retaliation is just 'icing on the cake' so to speak.


RE: Some way around it
By doctor sam adams on 8/30/2006 12:07:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The fact that gun control laws just ensure that armed criminals need fear no civilian retaliation is just 'icing on the cake' so to speak.


The corollary is that civilians need fear less armaments among the criminals.


Movie quality
By Jkm3141 on 8/24/2006 10:24:40 PM , Rating: 4
Yay, i get to buy all new computer parts, basically sacrifice the ability to use linux (don't say there will ever be Open Source HDCP), and use an operating system i have no intention of upgrading to for a while Just so i can watch incredibly crappy movies that are being shoved down our throats.

here is a revolutionary idea, Instead of making movies at 3 times the resolution, Make the movie worth watching in the first place.




RE: Movie quality
By peternelson on 8/24/2006 10:58:39 PM , Rating: 2
HDCP *WILL* BE CRACKED.

Thus I think it possible there will be open source hdcp decoding.

However it makes sense to wait until hardware and media ships to market in high volumes.

Once the installed base of current hdcp products and disks is too great to recall or change THEN we release the hack of hdcp (it can be achieved if you read). It would only take one person to circulate the derived master key details and the whole system crumbles). Any hardware or software could then have it's own genuine looking keys and if they are blacklisted it can just calculate another valid one. If they are ever foolish enough to start using HDCP, they will regret it.

Then we have freedom in our choice of OS, as it ought to be.


RE: Movie quality
By paulpod on 8/25/2006 2:20:36 AM , Rating: 2
I think in addition to people not knowing what driver signing is, the lack of knowledge about the mathematics of modern encryption is amusing.

Just for yucks. Find me someone who has cracked driver and code signing keys. And BitLocker type apps have been out for a while. Have any been cracked?

Has anyone booted a non-MS OS on an XBOX360. People were saying that encryption would be cracked within weeks.

Could somebody who knows the details please explain (or provide a pointer to) the kind of numbers we are dealing with and how the key management works. I read about the system a while back and just remember how impressive the numbers are.


RE: Movie quality
By smokenjoe on 8/25/2006 4:17:28 AM , Rating: 2
No offence but I really dont understand the whole "it wont be cracked" concept. Many people do the cracking for fun or out of a sence of fair play like Robin Hood I suppose. The bigger the chalange the more they will try and the more they will enjoy it.

DRM makes it hard for the person that buys things no one else I wonder if the hackers even bother to watch the moves or play the games they crack. It is so sad all the people that buy a game and have to use the crack to make it run well.


RE: Movie quality
By peternelson on 8/25/2006 1:41:38 PM , Rating: 2
Paulpod,

I fully understand what driver signing is.

Secondly, "the lack of knowledge about the mathematics of modern encryption is amusing."

I know quite a lot about the mathematics of modern encryption, actually ;-)

Please do not make erroneous assumptions. I am well aware that it is possible to create encryption schemes which, as far as we know with current methods cannot be broken within a reasonable timescale (like the age of the universe).

I am NOT saying the Xbox 360 is hackable (other than drive firmware).

WHAT I *AM* SAYING IS THAT HDCP *IS* HACKABLE.

Go read the specification of HDCP.

Go read what leading encryption experts have written as papers on the security of it and could it be broken.

Do you have any array of custom hardware logic for decryption at your disposal (as I have?).

As I said HDCP CAN AND WILL BE CRACKED.

Technically it is INSECURE.

It will be possible to break.

Beyond that, with additional effort it is FURTHER possible to derive the entire system master keys which manage the system eg to generate keys, authorise keys, revoke them etc.

Circulating the found secret numbers is all that is required to undermine.

NOW I WILL STATE A FACT: THE ONLY REAL PROTECTION HDCP GIVES IS A *LEGAL* ONE. ie since the tech is known crackable (even before they launched with it) the only real protection (other than inconvenience) that it offers is where laws such as DMCA offer LEGAL protection against unauthorised attempts to decode encrypted content.


RE: Movie quality
By peternelson on 8/25/2006 8:22:47 PM , Rating: 2
Furthermore, Paulpod, do not rely on my own words,

Taken from Wikipedia:

Cryptanalysis researchers demonstrated fatal flaws in HDCP for the first time in 2001, prior to its adoption in any commercial product. Scott Crosby of Carnegie Mellon University authored a paper with Ian Goldberg, Robert Johnson, Dawn Song, and David Wagner called "A Cryptanalysis of the High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection System" [1]. This paper was presented at ACM-CCS8 DRM Workshop on November 5, 2001.

The authors conclude:

"HDCP's linear key exchange is a fundamental weaknesses. We can:
Eavesdrop on any data
Clone any device with only their public key
Avoid any blacklist on devices
Create new device keyvectors.
In aggregate, we can usurp the authority completely."
Around the same time that Scott Crosby and co-authors were writing this paper, noted cryptographer Niels Ferguson independently claimed to have broken the HDCP scheme, but he chose not to publish his research due to legal concerns arising from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act [2].

The most well-known attack on HDCP is the conspiracy attack, where a number of devices are compromised and the information gathered is used to reproduce the private key of the central authority."

When HDCP needs breaking, it will be broken.


RE: Movie quality
By frobizzle on 8/26/2006 7:27:21 PM , Rating: 2
Oooh!!
I can't wait to watch such classics like Son of the Mask and Hercules in New York in HD!!

[/sarcasm]



don't you guys know?
By JCheng on 8/24/2006 2:48:03 PM , Rating: 3
I thought the following was common knowledge, but judging by some of the comments, I guess not.

You won't be able to play protected HD content on Linux. (Unless someone starts selling HDCP-certified computers running HDCP-certified Linux builds and HDCP-certified drivers.)

You won't be able to play protected HD content on Windows XP.

You won't be able to play protected HD content on home-built computers of *any kind*.

You won't be able to play protected HD content on any Mac you can buy today. (At least, I haven't heard any of them have been certified, if it's even possible yet.)

You won't be able to play protected HD content on your current monitor (unless it's *very* recent).

Until this announcement, the only prospective way to play protected HD content on your computer was to buy a (not yet available) whole new machine from an OEM with Vista pre-installed, in order for the entire thing to be HDCP-certified. The only difference now, if this story is even legit, is you will have to buy a whole new machine from an OEM with Vista *x64* pre-installed.

(Of course, all of the above is moot if HDCP gets cracked.)

It's still somewhat of a story, if true, because there's going to be a fair amount of legacy Windows software that will run on with Vista x32 but not x64.

The good news is that the movie studios are not going to protect their HD content until a few years from now, to save everyone from having to go buy new hardware just to watch some crappy movie in full HD.




RE: don't you guys know?
By ajira99 on 8/24/2006 3:21:38 PM , Rating: 2
That's kind of funny since ATI and Nvidia have started releasing video cards with HDCP support (some with HDMI) and Intervideo WinDVD 8 (in Japan) supports HD-DVD or BD playback under XP or MCE.

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?...

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000G1T7YI/503-...

Regardless, I'm giving the HD format wars a pass. I've got better stuff to do, including turning off the TV and reading a good book.


RE: don't you guys know?
By JCheng on 8/25/2006 1:56:28 AM , Rating: 2
Anyone trying to sell you an HDCP compatible graphics card today, is simply lying.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_hdc...

Supporting HD-DVD/BD playback is NOT the same as playing HDCP content protected video, WinDVD can probably play HD content from HD-DVD/BD but not HDCP protected.

Again, unless HDCP gets completely owned, you will HAVE to buy a whole new computer and possibly monitor if you want to watch HDCP protected content at full resolution.


RE: don't you guys know?
By ShapeGSX on 8/25/2006 9:13:05 AM , Rating: 2
That article is months old. HDCP capable HDMI output video cards have been released since then.


RE: don't you guys know?
By JCheng on 8/25/2006 12:58:51 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, you're right. I thought HDCP required whole-system certification like CableCard.


cracked already?
By shortbus1 on 8/25/2006 9:22:37 AM , Rating: 2
seems someone has already cracked this once and will probably do it again after its been patched.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=14...




RE: cracked already?
By viperpa on 8/25/2006 12:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
This is very true and one thing that people forget. This is unless Microsoft disables all drivers that want to play HD/BR. It's like Microsoft disabling copying movies in Windows MC pc computers with tv tuners like HP.


RE: cracked already?
By paulpod on 8/25/2006 4:55:29 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously, I'm talking about cracks that are user friendly, are unpatchable, are specific to movie decoding, and become as widely distributed as the DVD crack.

The "market penetration" of complex and risky kernel level security workarounds is not going to be high. The only useful (safe) crack for movies would be software that obtains the exact keyset and saves a decrypted file to harddrive that WMP11 can play using DirectShow decoders.


RE: cracked already?
By Wwhat on 8/26/2006 11:07:45 AM , Rating: 2
From what I read in the past the new hd-dvd protection system relies on a upgradable and active hardware/firmware system in the drives themselves, a bit like how the psp autoupdates with disks and then disables old hacks again and again as they pop up.
So to have a longlasting fix you'd have to alter the hardware.



RE: cracked already?
By mindless1 on 8/26/2006 9:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
That's ridiculous. Many people dont want WMP11 to play ANYTHING, and would consider it LESS desirable if WMP11 is involved at all.

You seem to have a fundamental flaw in your arguements, that it's going to be impossible to do it in one exact scenario and end result you envision. That's not how it works, in the end it only has to be acceptible to the user no matter how it gets done.


Beta drivers?
By AT39 on 8/24/2006 1:46:47 PM , Rating: 1
I suppose that this will be death of testing Beta graphics drivers.





RE: Beta drivers?
By justinf on 8/24/2006 1:49:55 PM , Rating: 1
Good thing I am running myth tv for my media center not windows.


RE: Beta drivers?
By Vertigo101 on 8/24/2006 3:38:59 PM , Rating: 3
Good luck finding linux support for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.


RE: Beta drivers?
By Burning Bridges on 8/24/2006 7:52:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Good luck finding linux support for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.

And when he does find it, it will still be better than that offered by Vista

:-)


RE: Beta drivers?
By Vertigo101 on 8/24/2006 9:04:06 PM , Rating: 2
Which will still suck compared to most of the hacks available for XP.


Thank Sony et al.
By ajira99 on 8/24/2006 2:23:18 PM , Rating: 5
You can thank Sony and all of these other content providers for this crap. They want your money, but they're the ones who decide how you enjoy the media (if at all). They're going to keep putting in more and more restrictions until even Joe Consumer says enough! Microsoft has a financial stake in this as well, but at least they make it possible to playback DVD's without resorting to Linux (no offense to that OS).

Consumers need to start telling these companies what THEY want in a product, not vice versa.




RE: Thank Sony et al.
By Shadowself on 8/24/2006 3:35:09 PM , Rating: 2
Sony is shipping a system right now that has a Blu-ray drive in it that will play the Blu-ray movie disks (check out almost any dedicated Blu-ray forum and you'll find a thread talking about it). It's not running a 64 bit version of Windows and it most certainly does NOT require a 64 bit version of Vista.

This sounds more like a lot more like Microsoft back pedalling here and blaming the studios for not being able to get HD DVD or Blu-ray support implemented in 32 bit Windows in time for it to ship next spring.


RE: Thank Sony et al.
By Vertigo101 on 8/24/2006 3:42:27 PM , Rating: 2
It would be laughably easy for MS to allow Blu-Ray/HD-DVD playback, it just wouldn't be secure.


this si stupid
By Comdrpopnfresh on 8/24/2006 3:29:49 PM , Rating: 2
sp basically the media companies believe that blu-ray and hd-dvd will be copied because of all the existing software to do the same to dvd? When x64 is the standard platform, do they think the makers od software like anydvd are gonna suddenly throw in the towel? Sure drm will be protected on the chepset level (atleast with intel so far..), but the software level is still open for piracy. I don't even think anydv uses drivers, it just simply uses software to overcome the CSS encryption. The other thing that scares me is this seems to say also, that no drivers can be installed unless they pass through some sort of microsoft filter. What about all the add-in cards, wireless, and other software/drivers for XP that isn't certified, it usually says in the int he instruction manual to click "instlal anyway" when the xp message comes up. Will this be not allowed in vista?




RE: this si stupid
By DukeN on 8/24/2006 3:49:26 PM , Rating: 2
Fucking retarded. I blame Sony more than anyone else for this bullshit.

Have not bought ANYTHING Sony in the last 3 years and likely never will (its not like their products are the best in class or anything anyways).


RE: this si stupid
By My Croft on 8/24/2006 4:20:01 PM , Rating: 2
Rofl, you blame Sony for the HD-DVD camp telling Microsoft to not allow playback of their products? That's a stretch.


RE: this si stupid
By Wwhat on 8/26/2006 11:03:21 AM , Rating: 2
That's the idea yes, don't allow unsigned drivers and that way you not only have a more stable platform but also via DRM you got the people by the balls.


just run Linux and it will work
By mforce on 8/24/2006 5:21:02 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sure there's going to be ways to get around this . I'm also sure that M$ is doing their best to make it all not work cause it's really in their interest ( sarcasm ).
The easiest way I see to get around this is to run Linux which usually doesn't really care about those DRM things and just works. You don't have to give up Windows or even install Linux , you can just use your old CD/DVD to run a live CD/DVD and play the media .




RE: just run Linux and it will work
By JCheng on 8/25/2006 2:00:59 AM , Rating: 2
If by "get around this" you mean "not watch HDCP protected content at full resolution", then yes, Linux certainly is one way to "get around this".


RE: just run Linux and it will work
By NoSoftwarePatents on 8/25/2006 11:30:58 AM , Rating: 2
LinDVD may support HDCP protected content in the future-if a company, like IBM asks Intervideo to include support for it.


RE: just run Linux and it will work
By Wwhat on 8/26/2006 10:57:33 AM , Rating: 2
Intervideo has gone evil and is in bed with microsoft to boot.
Read the EULA of their latest products, it's outrageous and shocking.


Trash Journalism
By Stafford on 8/25/2006 8:21:19 AM , Rating: 5
Guys, this is trash journalism at it's worst.

This isn't news. This is exactly how it is with regular DVD. Windows 2000/XP doesn't have support for regular DVD and never did; you have to use the third party codecs and drivers that come with your system or DVD drive.

And you know better. You're intentionally spreading fear, uncertaintity, and doubt.




RE: Trash Journalism
By Phynaz on 8/25/2006 11:15:04 AM , Rating: 2
Good post.

I was going to mention that the statement by Microsoft specifically said Media Player.


Media companies ask
By Nekrik on 8/24/2006 2:42:51 PM , Rating: 3
Microsoft to Intentionally Cripple HD DVD, Blu-ray Support in Vista 32-bit :)




RE: Media companies ask
By Enoch2001 on 8/24/2006 4:35:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You won't be able to play protected HD content on home-built computers of *any kind*.


Errr... what? All you need is an HDCP monitor, an HDCP video card, an HD/BR drive, and certified drivers on Vista X64. Why couldn't one use a home-built computer?


People are missing some points regarding BD/HD-DVD
By paulpod on 8/24/2006 6:24:25 PM , Rating: 1
1. HD disc will be vastly harder to crack than DVD's limited set of keys. If it is cracked, the format will change or the competing format will be adopted. And most posters here obviously don't understand what driver signing even is.

2. Viewing movies on a computer only came about because people can get a cracked library of free content on their hard drive without even the hassle of burning discs. Once watching a movie requires data streaming from legal media, using a player will prove to be very convenient. No big deal as the price will soon be in the $80-200 range.

3. With uncrackable media, cheap players, and ubiquitous HDMI enabled TVs, production of DVDs will cease and analog outputs on HD players will be disabled. Some posters are in for a rude awakening.

The DVD format was created when PC hard drives were 2gig by people who did not understand how Moore's Law operates in the computer industry. Movie companies would be idiotic to repeat the same mistake and are taking a huge risk by allowing any kind of data access by a computer. You can give props to MicroSoft for pushing for and supporting that.




By rrsurfer1 on 8/24/2006 9:11:04 PM , Rating: 2
Look at history. HDCP will be cracked just as easily as all the other "uncrackable" protection we have had before. We have better content protection but also better coders and faster systems to work at the cracking. Also, I understand driver signing - and there's no reason that this won't be cracked itself to allow driver-level manipulation to crack the HDCP.

And to say that the leaders of the computer industry "did not understand how Moore's Law operates" is just misinformed. They did the best with the tech they had, just like they're doing now with HDCP, and it's still a waste of money and will be cracked.


By Johnmcl7 on 8/25/2006 3:53:37 AM , Rating: 2
2. - I don't agree with your point at all, the reason I have DVD playback on my PC is so I can watch my DVDs on the move, I spend a lot of time travelling so it's a great time to sit back and watch a film.

John


Vista 64 bit
By tombomba2 on 8/24/2006 6:51:52 PM , Rating: 2
And which of the many versions of Vista is 64 bit???




RE: Vista 64 bit
By AndreasM on 8/24/2006 7:21:41 PM , Rating: 3
And which of the many versions of Vista is 64 bit???

All of them. The DVDs they come on will contain both 32-bit and 64-bit versions.


Good for everyone but a few?
By smokenjoe on 8/24/2006 2:19:55 PM , Rating: 2
This will probibily be good in the end except for a stronger control on new software and slower software developement my MS. As usual I dont want any one company to control software but the move to 64 will be good in the end.

In one fell swoop just about every non AMD computer looks obsolete- at least on paper. It is time for the minimum system bar to be rased to sane levels. Do we really need to make programs compatable with a PII at 450? It should make some parts of software developement easer.

I could be wrong but no one has to stick with Windows.





RE: Good for everyone but a few?
By AMDZen on 8/24/06, Rating: 0
RE: Good for everyone but a few?
By policy11 on 8/24/2006 2:43:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The PII didn't come in at 450 mhz, that was the first rated speed of the PIII


The PII did have a 450 MHz option. I had one.

"During 1998, Pentium IIs running at 266, 300, 350, 400, and 450 MHz were also released."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_II


No thanks.
By Profyrion on 8/24/2006 4:25:08 PM , Rating: 2
Well, it looks like I won't be investing in Vista *OR* HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.

Oh well.

Maybe we'll see this driver verification cracked for 32-bit Vista so "normal folks" can watch HD content too. It's a shame we have to hack/break our software just to be able to use it.




RE: No thanks.
By Teletran1 on 8/24/2006 4:37:00 PM , Rating: 2
I thought technology was supposed to make life easier for people not make things impossible to even properly use. This whole Hi Def media saga is the worst thing I have ever seen as a consumer and I will be staying away from it. I hope everyone else does too. It isnt worth it. Do I really care to see RV or Hitch anyway. Most new movies I have seen are garbage anyway. Let this shit die and maybe they will get the point that we as consumers wont put up with this and come out with a unified standard that isnt impossible to play without some sort of magic or lottery winnings.


Millennium 2?
By McGuffin on 8/24/2006 4:51:40 PM , Rating: 2
Yet another reason not to bother with Vista. That thing has Windows ME written all over it.




RE: Millennium 2?
By RapidSnail on 8/24/2006 6:43:13 PM , Rating: 2
More like Windows THEM.


Wait a second...
By drank12quartsstrohsbeer on 8/24/2006 5:08:22 PM , Rating: 2
So this article is saying that the 32 bit vista kernel basically operates the same as windows XP?

I thought the 32 and 64 bit versions had the new 'insulated' kernel.




RE: Wait a second...
By Nekrik on 8/24/2006 6:13:40 PM , Rating: 2
Not really, the point here is that the 64 bit version will require signed drivers, if it's not signed, it won't be installed. If the driver is signed, then they are able to check for any code that may try to circumvent content protection. The 32 bit version will allow you to install an unsigned driver if you choose to, which means it would be possible to get around the protection mechanism.


lol, high definition.
By Ralph The Magician on 8/24/2006 5:54:44 PM , Rating: 1
Who cares? It will be AT LEAST three years before HD-DVD or Blu-Ray take off in any meaningful way. In 2011, when you walk into the store and there are more HD-DVDs than DVDs, and every display supports HDCP, and every computer is 64-bit, then worry abou it. If you are still using something like a Core Duo chip, then you probably are going to need to upgrade anyway.

In fact, Core Duo (Yonah) is one of the only chips capable of playing 1080p video that is 32-bit. Playing HD video takes a lot of CPU power




RE: lol, high definition.
By rrsurfer1 on 8/24/2006 9:02:28 PM , Rating: 3
This is not true. Several processors before Yohah are more than capable of decoding and playing 1080p video. You can't do much else in the process however.


I just needed to quote this of course
By themusgrat on 8/24/2006 9:01:07 PM , Rating: 2
"Heh, Pretty soon we won't even be allowed to own a disk, we'll just a download a large file we can't open without inputting a sample of blood, urine and brain tissue. Nevermind what you'll have to go through if you actually want to watch a movie."

I agree, really, i dont think it will be very long before this type of thing. lol. Just like holographic storage was the almost unreachable technology years ago in Star Wars, DNA sampling will eventually come to light, like in Ultraviolet... Ok, maybe a bit far, but whatever. I wouldnt have any problem with DRM if it was reasonable, but it isnt. None of it was properly planned or thought out, so it is ridiculous today.




By Wwhat on 8/26/2006 10:55:50 AM , Rating: 2
That's why it's important to fight those developments every step of the way, don't give disney or your CC company your fingerprints for instance, to hell with that.

P.S. I like how dailytech rather than adding editing forces you to preview, guess webcoders are hard to find still.


LOL
By exdeath on 8/25/2006 12:38:31 PM , Rating: 1
Windows Vista DDK + kernel debugger = signed HDCP driver 'fixed'




RE: LOL
By peternelson on 8/25/2006 1:47:07 PM , Rating: 2
I wish!

You may have a little difficulty obtaining or generating your own signature for your "fixed" driver to run on most user systems.


RE: LOL
By Wwhat on 8/26/2006 10:58:26 AM , Rating: 1
little is probably the right word.


Toshiba HD-DVD laptop?
By cochy on 8/24/2006 2:35:28 PM , Rating: 3
Doesn't Toshiba market a laptop with HD-DVD and high def movie playback? If so, what kind of CPU doesn't it have? And also I guess you won't be able to upgrade it to Vista if you want to keep high def support?




Linux
By mendocinosummit on 8/24/2006 2:14:39 PM , Rating: 2
Just another reason to leave windows behind, except to have a pirated edition for dual boot gaming of course.




By rushfan2006 on 8/24/2006 2:40:40 PM , Rating: 2
Its been well known for a looooooong while that Vista was going to be "optimized" for 64-bit processing, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to then put two and two together to figure out that MS would pull something like this. I'm not suprised in the least.

I also think its no big deal to upgrade (well I can see your frustration if you just bought a new PC in the last year)....with everything Vista is touting and reading the articles on ...its been known you'd need a hefty box to get the most out of this OS.




.
By albundee on 8/24/2006 3:58:56 PM , Rating: 2
this is crap, Vista is dropping more and more features everytime its mentioned on a tech site.

basically what else does it offer other than dx 10 and fancy "aero glass" oooo~.


sounds like XP 1.5




To me....
By Chadder007 on 8/24/2006 5:38:36 PM , Rating: 2
To me, this is just another blow to the High Def media fields of HDDVD and BlueRay. Im thinking neither will take off now because of this kind of crap and DVD will stay a bit longer.




Sigh...
By Some1ne on 8/24/2006 6:14:32 PM , Rating: 2
Why do people have to so incessently try to take away all the things that helped to make computers great in the first place? The ability to build a platform that is single-handedly capable of playing music, movies, PC games and console games in a huge variety of formats from a huge variety of sources, coupled with the fact that, yes, it is possible to obtain, create, and distribute these different media sources completely freely is a big reason why PC's are as popular as they are today, and probably *the* driving factor behind the rapid adoption of broadband Internet connections.

This knee-jerk reaction from the media industry of "people are getting something for nothing, they must be stopped (so that we might extort even more money from people who just spent the better part of $3 grand on a new entertainment system)!" is what needs to be stopped. They should stop for a moment and look at the video game industry, which has already tried just about every protection under the sun, and realize that no matter what protection they try to use, it will both:

1. Be defeated, in a relatively short timeframe.
2. Cause more problems for legitimate users than it does for pirates.

...really what they need to do is stop trying to fight it tooth and nail, and stop counting every downloaded torrent of a movie as $20 in damages caused by piracy (yes, I "stole" your movie, but if you think that if it had been impossible for me to steal it I instead would have purchased a legal copy, 99.9% of the time you'd be just plain crazy), and embrace the new playing field. They need to realize that if they took the resources that they have allocated to anti-piracy efforts, and invested them into creating better products, they would see a *far* better return on investment, because whether piracy is possible or not, if you make a good enough product, it *will* sell, regardless.

But anyways...the real disappointment is Microsoft caving to industry pressure. Really they should have just stood up and said "no, stfu, this is what our users want, so deal with it". Instead they've gone completely the other direction. Linux anyone?




When will we need HD?
By griffynz on 8/24/2006 8:16:31 PM , Rating: 2
I have over 350 dvd movies, projector and sound system, not too mention building a HTPC.

Just brought my first SUPER-BIT dvd the other day, now if people really wanted the best picture I think there would be alot more sales of SUPER-BIT dvd discs. I can just notice the difference, probably telling myself this. I brought a GeForce 6600GT for PureVideo (its very nice running VGA to the projector, although its not perfect).
I was hoping when this projector bulb goes to get a higher resolution projector, get a HD drive and keep using the HTPC.
Now the cost will be far too much, CPU, Video Card, Mobo,Memory,PowerSupply,Vista 64,Projector (with higer resolution 720p),HD Disc drive and Media....
I think the movie producers want me just to buy a stand alone player......to go with my last 4 DVD players....problem is these are currently just PC in a box anyway !!!!!




Additional coverage
By peternelson on 8/25/2006 7:42:20 PM , Rating: 2
See also.... (in view of the update posted above)

Alternative coverage of this story HERE:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33...


Good techie information on the subject HERE:

http://blogs.technet.com/windowsvista/archive/2006...





Duh
By Alexstarfire on 8/28/2006 1:08:46 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't read all the comments, but you people also forget that even if it's not natively supported, that doesn't mean taht it won't be supported at all. There is a very good chance that someone will get HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to run in Vista 32-bit.

Having everything go 64-bit is a good idea anyways. 32-bit processors aren't very good anymore and by the time Vista comes out you'll probably need to upgrade anyways. Besides, it's not like DVDs are going anywhere fast.




why use a computer?
By fxnick on 8/30/2006 8:42:07 PM , Rating: 2
this is why we have dvd players...




Conclusion
By MikeGk2 on 8/30/2006 10:19:02 PM , Rating: 2
Get a fucking HD DVD or BR player.




I dont care..
By Merry on 8/24/2006 1:55:10 PM , Rating: 1
I cant afford to upgrade to Vista, let alone upgrade my computer or even buy a HD drive, for that matter.

I'm pretty sure i'm not alone, either.




so does this mean..
By IMPoor on 8/24/2006 2:45:48 PM , Rating: 1
So does this mean I can't still use blu-ray or HD-DVD on a 32bit vista. Yes I can't watch movies but what about for burning data which is what I am mostly excited about doing. Will the drives just not be supported or will it be support but I can't watch movies on it in a 32 bit Vista. What if I stick with XP?




rubbish
By TechGuru on 8/24/2006 3:48:20 PM , Rating: 1
You are completely confused. WHat you stated is akin to saying the world is flat, i.e. it is totally factually incorrect with no ambiguity




Hope China
By porkster on 8/26/06, Rating: 0
RE: Hope China
By QueBert on 8/27/2006 2:58:33 AM , Rating: 1
my 2 cents, no 2000/XP didn't support DVD playback out of the box. Vista Ultimate is going to retail for what? $600 bucks (correct me if I'm wrong...) And is going to be marketed as the "ultimate gaming and multimedia OS 3v4r!" Yet, I'll still have to invest cash to get it to play HD or Bluray? that's total crap. It will be over twice the price of XP, I'd expect more features, and definitely video playback should require NOTHING added, except maybe a codec here and there, and those are free. Anyone who accepts spending all that cash for "ultimate" Vista and still have it crippled, I feel bad for you. I'll stick with XP until the support is totally dead then I'll buy a Mac...


first post
By houe on 8/24/06, Rating: -1
RE: first post
By formulav8 on 8/24/06, Rating: -1
"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook

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