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Samsung wants to stay on its A game to beat Apple

Samsung sees that Apple is making an aggressive push into China, and will pump up the competition with powerful new 64-bit Galaxy products in order to keep Apple at bay. 

Shin Jong-kyun, Samsung’s mobile business chief, confirmed that Samsung wants to expand its business in the Chinese smartphone market during a meeting in Seocho-dong, southern Seoul.
“Samsung understands that Apple intends to boost its mobile business in China, as well as in Japan, meaning that we should try harder in these countries,” said shin.

Apple will sell its latest iPhones through China Unicom and China Telecom while also talking with China Mobile, which has a customer base over twice the size of the U.S. population. In fact, Chinese regulators gave the final required license for the iPhone to work on China Mobile Ltd's mobile network this week.

Samsung Galaxy S IV

Samsung plans to pursue the market with competitive products in hopes of swaying users from buying Apple's iPhones. For instance, Shin said the next set of Samsung Galaxy smartphones would feature 64-bit processors for more power and speed.

“Not in the shortest time. But yes, our next smartphones will have 64-bit processing functionality,” said Shin.

In addition, Samsung will hold a launch event for its latest 5.7-inch Galaxy Note 3 "phablet" in China.

Apple, on the other hand, just recently announced its iPhone 5S, which also features a 64-bit processor (the ARM-based A7). This will offer the market a high-end smartphone with enough power to run complex games and applications. 
As of the end of the second quarter, Samsung was the top smartphone seller in China with 19.4 percent of the market while Apple’s share was just 4.3 percent.

Source: The Korea Times

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64 bit android?
By MacTech84 on 9/12/2013 11:31:06 AM , Rating: 4
The iPhone 5s will be 64 bit compliant with software and hardware. Samsung announces they will ship a 64 bit phone next year.... Doesn't Android need to be updated for that to happen first? Doh!

RE: 64 bit android?
By amanojaku on 9/12/13, Rating: -1
RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/12/2013 12:23:42 PM , Rating: 5
No, idiot. A 32-bit OS can not run natively on a 64-bit processor except in very special circumstances.

In the case of Intel processors, both Intel (and more importantly AMD) were well aware of a need for backward compatibility with Windows. They were very careful not to touch the underlying 32-bit architecture when adding in the AMD64 extensions.

Can you guarantee that smartphone processor core manufactures are doing the same? I can't and would bet that they absolutely require a 64-bit compiled OS for their cores. After all, these processor cores are expected to run not only Android, but iOS and Windows as well.

No worries though. Once 64-bit processors cores are available, Android will be compiled to work with it just as it is compiled to work with each specific architecture out there now i.e. Qualcomm, Exynos & Tegra.

I would recommend you do some more research yourself before spouting off calling others an idiot.

RE: 64 bit android?
By extide on 9/12/2013 4:36:54 PM , Rating: 2
Yes... duh you CAN guarantee they are doing the same because they are all implementing ARMv8 not some custom one off ISA... lol

RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/12/2013 6:26:20 PM , Rating: 2
Did you read my reply in the context in which it was written?

The person I responded to was making generalized statements regarding 32 on 64-bit support. My response was a refute to that generalization. It most certainly is not a given that 32-bit apps or OS will be supported on a 64-bit processor except under very specific circumstances (duh!). Does Intel's IA32 applications run on an IA64 processor? Absolutely not! But IA-32 does run natively on an AMD64 processor.

Why is that?

In order to provide 32 bit support on a 64-bit processor, you have to build that processor as a superset of the original 32-bit processor. In the Intel world, IA-32 and IA-64 are very different architectures even though the names are very similar.

As you rightfully mention ARMv8 is a superset if the previous 32-bit ARMv7 architecture. Because the ARMv8 includes the A64 instruction set, those instructions are used to provide the compatibility layer necessary to run 32-bit ARMv7-based Apps and system software.

That 32-bit compatibility does not arrive for free in the generalized world. The ability for provide backward full hardware level 32-bit compatibility must be designed in as a ikntegral part of the 64-bit processor core architecture.

In Arm and Intel/AMD's cases that has been done by extending the earlier architectures and allowing mode switching between the hardware modes. It is not correct to generalize that all 64-bit processors will be backward compatible with their forerunners as seen in the IA-32/IA-64 scenario.

RE: 64 bit android?
By extide on 9/13/2013 1:05:57 PM , Rating: 2
This is a smartphone article, about smartphone cpu's and smartphone OS's. I thought it was pretty obvious.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/13/2013 1:18:14 PM , Rating: 2
Obvious or not, it stopped being all about embedded micro architectures when the guy posted this as a part of his bashing:
We already saw this with x86-64 CPUs running 32-bit Windows and drivers.

Thing is I am not so much calling out his generalizations but rather kicking him in the ass for bashing others with them. If he had left the name-calling off of his post, I would have probably left him alone.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/13/2013 1:21:29 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and please understand that ARMv8 and Intel 64/AMD64 are not the only micro architectures out there even in the embedded world - though these are the most prominent. There are dozens and not all of them are promising this level of backward compatibility.

RE: 64 bit android?
By amanojaku on 9/12/2013 6:57:39 PM , Rating: 2
You want research? Here you go:
Both CPU cores are able to run 32-bit and 64-bit ARM code, as well as a mix of both so long as the OS is 64-bit.
Speaking at ARM TechCon 2011 in Santa Clara, Calif., ARM Chief Technology Officer Mike Muller said the new v8 architecture would consist of two main execution states: AArch64 and AArch32, with the former introducing a new A64 for 64-bit processing instruction set, while the latter would continue to support ARM’s existing instruction set.

“ARM V8 fully supports 32 bit ARMv7a software,” said Muller, adding that the architecture had been designed to “maximize the benefits across both 32-bit and 64-bit application areas."

The ARMv8 32-bit execution state, that uses 32-bit general purpose registers, and a 32-bit program counter (PC), stack pointer (SP), and link register (LR). AArch32 execution state provides a choice of two instruction sets, A32 and T32. Operation in AArch32 state is compatible with ARMv7-A operation.

The ARMv8 64-bit execution state, that uses 64-bit general purpose registers, and a 64-bit program counter (PC), stack pointer (SP), and exception link registers (ELR). AArch64 execution state provides a single instruction set, A64.
Of course, for compatibility reasons, we still support the entire ARMv7 machine in the new ARMv8 architecture, but when running 64-bit software, this part of the machine is not being used, and the area of complex legacy it had built up does not need to be active when running in the 64-bit ISA, unlike other architectures where 64-bit extension was simply added to the historical complexity and legacy of their 32-bit mode.

It is not possible, for example, for a 32-bit hypervisor to support a 64-bit operating system while executing in the HYP mode.

However, it should be noted that the halting debug view is no longer compatible with tools that today support ARMv7 halted debug even if the processor is running only 32-bit code. For this to work it will be necessary to have the debugger updated to support ARMv8. Self hosted AArch32 debug used by an OS however does not change.

For this reason, the ARM processors will run today’s 32-bit software without alteration and as such no impact to the ecosystem. Only key targeted areas of software will initially need to consider operating within A64 instruction set. The first is likely to be a hypervisor or any secure monitor code in such a system. Since the new hardware accelerated virtualization was first introduced in the Cortex-A15, which already supported much of the new page table format, updating such a hypervisor is manageable and many vendors have already started.

Similar to x86/x86-64, ARM has 32-bit and 64-bit operating modes, known as states. You can run a 32-bit OS or 32-bit hypervisor on ARMv8. The information is freely available on the Internet, if you aren't too lazy to look it up. This is why the OP is an idiot (notice the username and number of posts: clearly a shill), and why you are one, too.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/13/2013 12:40:33 PM , Rating: 1
Dude, I asked you to provide research to back up this statement:

"No, idiot. A 32-bit OS can run on a 64-bit CPU. It won't be able to take full advantage of the hardware's performance, but there won't be any compatibility issues...."

Please explain how reposting these bits of hardware discussions on one or two specific architectures justify your generalization that "A 32-bit OS can run on a 64-bit CPU" . One or two specific cases does not back up that claim as you are implying with your post that ANY 64-bit processor can run any 32-bit OS.

Specific discussions on a couple micro architectures does not back up this assertion. So I am still calling bullshit on it.

Try again. Better yet, show be evidence that an Intel Itanium can run 32-bit Windows 7.

Note: I don't give a rat's ass about the OP's user name or posting history. You have bashed this person with a stupid generalization that I would love to see you back up.

Maybe they guy honestly does not know and is simply asking the question. I personally don't know, but that doesn't make him an idiot or you less of one by calling him one.

There is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid answers.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Samus on 9/12/2013 4:05:57 PM , Rating: 2

The first mainstream 64-bit desktop CPU's shipped in 2003, years before a common-place 64-bit OS was even available.

Virtually all Windows XP (there was that anomaly XP-64 that had no driver support) and most Vista installations were 32-bit. Windows 7 was the first OS that offset the 32/64-bit divide of the desktop market to become 64-bit dominant, and that was late 2009.

So it's important to get 64-bit ARM CPUs out now, even if nothing takes advantage of it, in order to guarantee a) backwards compatibility b) developer interest and c) improve their design over time.

RE: 64 bit android?
By danbob999 on 9/12/2013 9:53:31 PM , Rating: 2
Linux AMD64 is available since 2001. It was released before the first AMD64 CPUs.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Shadowself on 9/12/2013 1:48:44 PM , Rating: 2
“Not in the shortest time. But yes, our next smartphones will have 64-bit processing functionality,” said Shin.

Note he is NOT saying they will be shipping a full 64 bit processor in any phone, just "64-bit processing functionality". Hell, most 32 bit processors can do 64 bit work (and many can do 128 bit work). This does not make them true 64 bit processors. At this point there is no way of knowing just how "64 bit" those coming Samsung processors will be.

And Samsung has not "announced" anything. One spokesman has been quoted in a "Us Too" statement. That is all.

However, when Samsung, the company shipping the most Android devices by far, does start shipping mobile devices with a 64 bit processor -- whenever that finally happens -- you can be certain that Google will have a compatible 64 bit variant of Android ready.

RE: 64 bit android?
By DerekZ06 on 9/12/2013 4:05:21 PM , Rating: 2
Note he is NOT saying they will be shipping a full 64 bit processor in any phone, just "64-bit processing functionality". Hell, most 32 bit processors can do 64 bit work (and many can do 128 bit work). This does not make them true 64 bit processors. At this point there is no way of knowing just how "64 bit" those coming Samsung processors will be.

"Shin said the next set of Samsung Galaxy smartphones would feature 64-bit processors for more power and speed"

A 32bit processor doing 64 bit work will not have more power or speed. There would be more than a 50% hit in performance.

Samsung will ship full 64 bit processors because anything else would be inefficient.

RE: 64 bit android?
By extide on 9/12/2013 4:39:08 PM , Rating: 2
Not necessarily. For example, SIMD instructions allow current 64-bit CPU's to execute 128 bit and some even support instructions working on 256bit registers at full speed. (See SSE, MMX, etc)

RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/13/2013 1:10:41 PM , Rating: 2
Depends if Samsung is making them support the full ARMv8 spec. In order to do that they have to implement the full AArch64 operating state. There is nothing stating that Any manufacturer is doing a full implementation in their v1 silicon.

I guess we will have to see.

Creating a 64-bit variant of Android should be nothing more than a simple recompile and regression test. Shouldn't take Google long since ARM is providing the development tools for ARMv8 developers to use.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Reclaimer77 on 9/12/2013 4:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
Apple's 64bit A7 is based on the already-existing ARMv8 specification. ARM has been 64bit ready for a while now.

It's also a trivial matter making 64bit Android. Linux has been 64bit friendly for like, forever, and ARM64 support is already in the mainline kernel.

Samsung looks to gain more from 64bit SoC's than anyone else. They already make phones with 3gigs of RAM. By next year we'll be seeing Samsung models with 4gigs of memory, maybe more. So there are definite gains to be had by going 64bit.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Shig on 9/12/2013 5:42:31 PM , Rating: 2

If you think your tablet is going to run fine with a 2500x1600 resolution screen on 2GB of ram, think again.

2GB of ram isn't even enough on my S4, I want moar.

RE: 64 bit android?
By danbob999 on 9/12/2013 9:56:47 PM , Rating: 2
2500x1600x32/8 = 15 MiB. You need only 16 MiB RAM to run a 2500x1600 tablet using 32 bit colors.
What take RAM is the applications, what you don't see.

RE: 64 bit android?
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/12/2013 6:32:54 PM , Rating: 2
Samsung's 64-bit SoC has been in development for quite some time now. Apple just managed to announce (but not actually deliver) theirs out the door first.

I am sure that Qualcomm is well under way getting their kraits on the ARMv8 bandwagon too.

When these phones come out in volume I have no doubt that 32GB + 4GB storage/memory will be the 'low end' specs on the block. The high end will have 64GB + 6-8GB memory (and cost you your first born son).

"There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." -- Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer

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