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Apple refreshes its iPhone family, iOS 7 coming September 18

It's that time of year again when consumers go crazy for new iPhones and analysts and tech pundits bicker over whether the newest release is "innovative enough” in the face of strengthened competition.
As has been the case in previous years, much of today's announcement has already been leaked. Over the past few months, we've seen images of both the new iPhone 5S and the iPhone 5C. And in June, we got our first glimpse of the operating system that the new hardware will power: iOS 7. IOS 7 marks the first drastic departure from the original “iPhone Operating System” software that we saw with the introduction of the original iPhone way back in 2007, and it will available to the public on September 18.
Today, all the pieces are coming together and we can finally see Apple’s new iPhones in the flesh. The first new model is the iPhone 5C, which is a polycarbonate-bodied smartphone available in green, white, blue, pink, and yellow (now the rainbow of colors in the iOS 7 UI make sense). According to Jony Ive, the "iPhone 5C is beautifully, unapologetically plastic."

iPhone 5C
The colorful plastic backing is a one-piece design that wraps all the way around the device and up to the glass touchscreen. It also has a reinforced steel frame to give a further feeling of solidity. When it comes to hardware, this is basically last year's iPhone 5, which means an A6 processor, 4” Retina display, and an 8MP rear-facing camera. However, it does add support for 100Mbps LTE.

Apple's "Soft-feel silicon rubber" case for the iPhone 5C will cost $39
The iPhone 5C will be priced at $99 for the 16GB model and $199 for the 32GB model -- both of course with new, two-year contracts.
But the star of the show, of course, is the new iPhone 5S. While not nearly as colorful as its cheaper iPhone 5C sibling, the iPhone 5S will be available in Silver, Gold, and Space Grey. The phone features a new A7 processor, which is the first 64-bit chip used in a smartphone. The new chip has 2 general purpose registers, 2 coating point registers, and over a billion transistors (102mm2 die size). It also supports OpenGL ES 3.0. Naturally, iOS 7 was rebuilt to support the 64-bit architecture of the A7.

iPhone 5S
Apple's native Apps have been recompiled for 64-bit operation and developers can start producing their own 64-bit apps with XCode. When all is said and done, the iPhone 5S will be twice as fast in CPU operations and twice as fast in GPU operations compared to the outgoing iPhone 5.
To be used in conjunction with the A7 is the new M7 motion coprocessor. It provides accelerometer, gyroscope, and compass functionality and works in conjunction with the new CoreMotion API to open up enable the next generation of health and fitness apps.
When it comes to battery life, Apple promises  10 hours of LTE browsing or 10 hours of 3G talk. Standby time is listed at 250 hours.

The camera is a new unit with a five-element lens and F2.2 aperture. It also has a 15 percent larger active sensor. It also has a new dual-LED flash system which promises to produce better skin tones. Other features include automatic image stabilization, 10 FPS burst mode, and a 120 FPS slow motion feature (720p at 120 FPS). 

The iPhone 5S gets its own $39 case as well

Perhaps the biggest new feature of the iPhone 5S, however, is the new "Touch ID" fingerprint sensor. The sensor is 170 microns thin and has a 550ppi resolution to read sub-epidermal skin layers. The sensor of course is integrated into the smartphone's Home button. Unlocking your phone is now as simple as touching your finger to the home button (multiple fingerprints are supported). Your fingerprint can also be used to verify your identity to purchase apps instead of entering your password.

Thankfully, the fingerprint data is only store on the device, and is never uploaded to Apple's servers (it won't even be backed up to iCloud).

The iPhone 5S will be available in 16GB 32GB, and 64GB versions for $199, $299, and $399 respectively with a new, two-year contract. Pre-orders for the iPhone 5C will open up on September 12 with the official launch taking place on September 20.

For anyone that cares, the iPhone 4S is still sticking around in 8GB guise for free on contract. The iPhone 5 is D - E - A - D.

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By Gio6518 on 9/10/2013 2:10:39 PM , Rating: 1
Can't wait to see how the iDiot douchebag followers try to spin this... After they have been constantly talking crap about Samsung having budget phones.... Well at least they're doing what Apple does best copy everyone in everything and singing songs of praise...

RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By invidious on 9/10/2013 2:35:34 PM , Rating: 3
You must have a different definition for impressive. The last impressive thing the iPhone got was the retina display, and that was the iPhone 4. I dont see anything innovative about this minor IOS redesign, looks like the same old crap with different styling. Which is basically all Apple has done with the iPhone in the past 3 years, incrimental hardware upgrades and stylization tweaks. Waiting for Apple to release a competative phone that pushes ANY boundries is growing tiresome.

RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By SpartanJet on 9/10/2013 3:04:51 PM , Rating: 4
Please, enlighten us on the benefits of 64bit on a phone with tiny (fart) apps and very little memory to address. One day it will be a benefit, but that day is long off especially with a functionally retarded OS like iOS.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: 0
RE: Spin
By SpartanJet on 9/10/2013 3:27:15 PM , Rating: 5
Thats simple, there is no need for a 64 bit OS yet especialy on a faux OS like iOS with such limited memory. Do some research and find out what the benefits of a 64 bit OS are and then get post back. I'm not doing your interwebs homework for you.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: 0
RE: Spin
By nikon133 on 9/10/2013 5:16:46 PM , Rating: 2
Apple is promising 2x performance gain, much as I can see. I believe they were achieving (approximately) same performance gain from generation to generation without moving to 64-bit.

Maybe they could not squeeze more out of 32-bit tech (while staying in acceptable heat and power consumption margins)?

Also remains to be seen how is this going to work on apps side. Will there be 32 and 64-bit versions of apps, will one app carry both codes, or will developers simply keep releasing 32-bit versions for a while, until there is enough 5s in the wild? Is there going to be any performance penalty for running 32-bit (presumably in some sort of emulation layer), or compatibility issues?

Considering all that, I'm not too convinced that 64-bit will bring much/any advantage for 5s users, but it could be foundation for future iOS shift to 64-bit.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By a5cent on 9/11/2013 9:19:08 AM , Rating: 3
Fact is, until we have measurements comparing the 64bit version to the 32bit version of the same app, none of us have any idea what the benefits are, if any. I am a software engineer, and while I understand your points, I would be surprised if the benefits were anywhere close to being as relevant as you expect them to be. Primarily because you're ignoring the fact that moving to 64bits also brings with it a host of drawbacks, which could easily cancel out many if not all of the potential performance gains, particularly on a low-power ARM CPU with modest amounts of cache and a frugal pre-fetcher.

Furthermore, you're assuming architectural changes that have no direct relationship to making the jump to 64bits. Just because the AMD64 architecture doubled the number of registers over its 32bit predecessor, doesn't mean the 64bit A7 must do the same. It isn't even guaranteed that all registers will be doubled in width. I would consider that likely, but there is no guarantee.

Finally, your assertion that 64bit integer ops are faster on a 64bit CPU is true, but completely irrelevant if the apps we run don't provide that kind of workload. From everything I've seen so far, almost all such workloads are executed on the GPU, not the CPU, and that isn't going to change, making this argument all but irrelevant to consumers.

In summary, your insistence that moving to a 64bit architecture will result in noticeable benefits is premature. Until we have actual measurements proving otherwise, the stance that it will make little difference is the more reasonable position to take, simply because it is far more likely.

If I had to guess, I would say this change is made primarily in the interest of tablets, and the iPhone is just being kept compatible. In a sense, I suspect the iPhone is just along for the ride, but Apple could never admit that.

RE: Spin
By othercents on 9/11/2013 9:28:58 AM , Rating: 2
Absolutely true, and even if 64bit works as intended you now have a split in the applications where all older versions of iPhones and iPads prior to the 5S would be worthless since they couldn't run the 64bit applications. Apple just sunset their whole line of phones and tablets by moving to 64bit.

RE: Spin
By a5cent on 9/11/2013 10:37:03 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think Apple sunset their whole line, mainly because I don't expect to see many 64bit apps. Most developers will release just a 32bit version and be done with it. It will be a few years before 64bit apps become the norm. Longer if the benefits are as few and far between as most here suspect.

RE: Spin
By asgallant on 9/11/2013 12:21:44 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, just look at how long it has taken the PC space to move to 64-bit applications being the norm. 64-bit x86 CPU's have been around for somewhere around 9-10 years now, and the last 32-bit only x86 CPU was sold how long ago? And still 32-bit applications are the norm. Unless ARM and the smartphone vendors can make a convincing case to developers that 64-bit is worth coding for even when not necessary, developers will continue on in 32-bit unless there is a tangible benefit to the application for moving to 64-bit.

RE: Spin
By a5cent on 9/11/2013 1:23:19 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, I just saw some specifics on the A7 SoC and for the CPU, they do claim to have doubled the number of general purpose and floating point registers. This has little to do with the transition to a 64bit architecture however. They could have done the same at 32bits.

RE: Spin
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/11/2013 8:52:44 PM , Rating: 3
Fact is, until we have measurements comparing the 64bit version to the 32bit version of the same app, none of us have any idea what the benefits are, if any. I am a software engineer, and while I understand your points, I would be surprised if the benefits were anywhere close to being as relevant as you expect them to be. Primarily because you're ignoring the fact that moving to 64bits also brings with it a host of drawbacks, which could easily cancel out many if not all of the potential performance gains, particularly on a low-power ARM CPU with modest amounts of cache and a frugal pre-fetcher...

Very true a5cent.

I too am a (very) senior software developer. There are a lot of variables when comparing 32 and 64 bit code (same arguments applied to 32 vs 16 vs ab it code as well). Just because a CPU/System has a 64-bit architecture does not mean it will be more efficient or faster than a 32-bit CPU/System. The number of bits does not change clock speed. The number of bits does itself affect pipeline handling, branch prediction and look-ahead.

Worse, consider that that 64-bit systems are actually less efficient in the following ways:

1. Data requires double the space they previously needed.
2. Likewise instructions and operands are longer meaning double space taken in memory and in executable files.
3. Reading/writing data to mass storage requires more work.

In order to support a 64-bit system, you will find that 16GB storage and 2GB main memory will become very, very tight.

64 bit systems are most useful when you need to address more than 4GB of main memory. This is the point when it necessity overrides the new platform's 'bloat'. As most high-end Smartphones and tablets (including the Apple 5S) ship with no more than 2GB of memory, they have not hit that 'necessary evil' plateau yet.

There is another part of this story. I have been in the software (and PC hardware) development world for about 35 years. I have seen common PC architectures rise from the lowly 6502, 8080 and Z80 through 16 bit architectures like the Motorola 68000 and 8086 (that fake 16-bit 8088 proc used in the IBM PC does not count!!) up to the Intel 80386 which is the grandpappy of the 32-bit architectures used today. And yes even saw the dawning of the AMD64 architecture & snickered when Intel adopted it into their processors.

In pretty much every case, the only way to get customers using the next step in 'bitness' architecture, was to provide a compatibility layer (we called it "thunking" back in the day) to support the outgoing architecture. Very few developers really wrote apps for the new architectures for the first few years until market penetration gave them a viable reason to do so. We always depended on the new architecture having that compatibility layer to run our old apps in the short term. In the windows world, about 40% of developers create only the 32-bit versions of their apps and depend on the WOW64 layer to handle them. Less efficient on a 64-bit system, but gets the job done without re-writing and most customers really don't notice the difference.

Unless apple is providing this compatibility layer on their platform, users will end up being very unhappy with iPhone 5S purchases.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By ipay on 9/11/2013 1:24:08 AM , Rating: 2
Once someone comments they can't down rank anyone, you retard. Your down ranks are all from people who haven't commented.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/11/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/11/2013 9:21:04 PM , Rating: 1
Hey dipshit. Read some of the comments. There are quite a few of them that shot down your misinformed assumptions (64-bit integers are 4 times as fast in a 64-bit architecture).

Just so you are aware - most software developers use the native integer size when coding their apps. That means integers in an app compiled with a 32-bit compiler will be 32-bits. Likewise apps using integers in a 64-bit compiled app will be 64-bits (but not always - there are some languages that limit even long ints to 32-bits on a 64-bit system).

for that 2% of apps that actually attempt to manipulate 64-bit data in a 32-bit architecture, I would disagree with your assertion. Read my previous responses why.

RE: Spin
By chripuck on 9/11/2013 3:33:57 PM , Rating: 2
The burden of proof is on you, not anyone else. The claim by the manufacturer is that it is twice as fast, prove otherwise.

RE: Spin
By Labotomizer on 9/10/2013 3:28:09 PM , Rating: 5
Well, 64 bit systems tend to increase memory usage of applications by 10-20%. So I suppose that's a benefit? It also hasn't exceeded 4GB of memory, and no single application can use more than 2GB. So, ummm... Not a benefit there.

So, could you please enlighten us on what the benefits of a 64 bit OS is on a mobile device? Because the reason it's good on your laptop/desktop don't apply to the new iPhone. At all.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/12/2013 12:30:31 PM , Rating: 1
Do you have any idea at all what a register is?

By your comments so far it seems you have no idea what purpose these processor features are used for.

Recommendation: Before highlighting your ignorance by commenting further it may do you some good to read a book on assembly language programming. Pay close attention to word size and what has to happen to fetch words to and from main memory.


RE: Spin
By Kiffberet on 9/11/2013 8:10:13 AM , Rating: 2
Why move to 64bits?

Because it's there.

RE: Spin
By xti on 9/11/2013 12:06:11 PM , Rating: 2
same reason for 80 megapixel cameras. because phones cant scratch your nuts yet.

RE: Spin
By Tony Swash on 9/10/13, Rating: 0
RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 3:38:30 PM , Rating: 3
"Please, enlighten us on the benefits of 64bit on a phone very little memory to address."

I re-iterate the question (with the snotty part removed). You quoted it and didn't answer it in any way. What does 64 bit do on a phone with so little RAM?

RE: Spin
By Tony Swash on 9/10/2013 4:06:20 PM , Rating: 1
I re-iterate the question (with the snotty part removed). You quoted it and didn't answer it in any way. What does 64 bit do on a phone with so little RAM?

Ben Bajarin at Techpinions has this to day.

The biggest surprise for me was the announcement that the new A7 processor in the iPhone 5S is the worlds first 64 bit processor in a smart phone. We heard this rumor early on but I dismissed it thinking it would be too soon to move to 64 bit. Apple, however, believes it is the right time.
1 billion transistors. That is truly remarkable. I’m not going to go into the depth’s of 64 bit architectures but I’ll make a few points on why this is a big deal.

First, 64 bit will dramatically increase the performance of more intensive and demanding applications. Things like audio and video encoding / decoding and any graphically intense applications including games and other visually complex applications. I talked to several prominent developers in the crowd who were extremely excited about the possibilities with 64 bit computing in mobile devices.

What makes this move to 64 bit all that more interesting is the software. iOS 7 is the worlds first 64 bit mobile operating system. The key to 64 bit processors is to have software which is written to take advantage of it. Here again is where we see Apple’s vertical advantage kick in. They control the hardware, design the SoC, and control the software. All these things have led them to create the worlds most advanced processor and operating system. But it is not just about Apple.

Apple likes to do things that give developers a distinct advantage for their apps on iOS. 64 bit will do just that and I am excited to see how developers can take advantage of the A7 and create the most amazing smartphone applications ever created.

The A7 and 64 bit, and potentially the results it yields in terms of third party software, gives Apple a distinct time advantage over competitors. No competitors are even close to bringing 64 bit and even for some platforms like Android which is focused on the low end non-spec smartphones, it may not even make sense.

I honestly do think that if you don't use iOS, and hence have no experience of using truly high end apps like say Garage Band, you don't realise just how powerful (and hence demanding of hardware) mobile devices can be. Remember that Apple's product line is all about integration, expect a similar sort of chip in the next high end iPad and on tablets the possibilities this sort of architecture opens up is even bigger. Apple are good at making big, bold transitions and this a fine example as it will transition the OS and all of the developer community to 64 bit. This is especially important if there are entirely new devices in the pipeline, remember the way that when the iPad launched there was a complete ecosystem of developers, tools and distribution in place to guarantee and explosion of apps for the new tablet.

BTW did you notice the new M7 coprocessor designed as a motion coprocessor that tracks movement and is optimized for contextual awareness along with an entirely new API called 'core motion'. That's what one calls a 'tell'.

Overall the iPhone 5S seems to be all about building a foundation for lots of future development. Can't wait to see the new iPads.

RE: Spin
By SpartanJet on 9/10/2013 4:10:36 PM , Rating: 4
I read that whole thing and what it comes down to is:


We have the first 64 bit OS that we use to address 1GB ram!

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 4:18:31 PM , Rating: 4
"We have the first 64 bit OS that we use to address 1GB ram!"

Yup... It's a kitchen sink faucet of water going down a waterfall. IT may come in handy someday, when the iPhone8 has 4GB RAM, but not for a long long time.

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 4:15:12 PM , Rating: 4
Tony, none of that guys opinion is correct. Going 64 bit doesnt improve speed in any way. The chip is faster, because its faster on its 32bit merits, 64bit has zero to do with it. 64bit allows access to more memory registers, but a device with less than 2gb ram couldnt see it anyhow.

I re-re-iterate the question. You quoted it and didn't answer it in any way. What does 64 bit do on a phone with so little RAM?

RE: Spin
By Dorkyman on 9/10/2013 5:35:57 PM , Rating: 2
I really think Samsung needs to introduce a 128-bit phone.

After all, more is better.

Heck, within five years we'll have a 1,024-bit phone. One instruction line will be the entire app. Golly, just think of the possibilities!

RE: Spin
By kingmotley on 9/10/2013 10:19:23 PM , Rating: 2
It's not always about the instructions or the addressable memory range. Having 64-bit registers can speed up many operations (assuming they aren't twice as slow as 32-bit operations + some overhead).

RE: Spin
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/11/2013 9:12:27 PM , Rating: 2
Oh? In what way?

64-bit data is 64-bits long.
64-bit addressing is 64-bits long.
64-bit address operands are 64-bits long.
64 bit data and coded address instruction operands take twice as much memory and storage compared to their 32-bit counterparts.

For a processor to be a 64-bit processor, it MUST have 64-bit registers. None of that makes a 64-bit processor faster than a 32-bit processor running at the same clock speed.

What speed does that processor run? How many instructions per does it execute per cycle? How long are the pipelines? How accurate is its branch prediction and how fast can it flush its dead instructions?

These are all things that determine a processor speed. The 'bitness' has no part in any of that.

Bitness dictates the processor's capacity and its ability to address more than 4GB of memory (how much memory do you have in your smartphone?). Believe me when I say that if you are running less than 4GB of memory, you really do NOT want a 64-bit architecture and programs. They will gobble up that 4GB at an alarming rate - and you will get no speed benefits at all from it.

RE: Spin
By inighthawki on 9/11/2013 2:28:14 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah I'd really like to see them finally implement that 'runios' instruction. It'll be pretty efficient too, cause it's like 1 instruction, right?

RE: Spin
By brasstax on 9/11/2013 1:15:07 AM , Rating: 3
Tony, I almost think your post and quote should get a 6 so everyone reads it for the complete BS it is. Maybe you are just a sucker, or maybe you are a paid shill, I don't know.

The "Techpinions" quote on which you have evidently based your argument reads like the book reports I'd write when I hadn't read the book. It is the terms "64-bit" and "faster" combined with some hyperbole in varying ways and tenses. After the first sentence, there is nary a single informative statement to be found.

Sorry for the harshness, I don't take exception to your stance, only the way you have supported it (I might get the 5S myself). Your quote is a prime example of exactly the type of biased page filler that should be completely ignored regardless of subject matter. For this reason I considered up voting your post. In the end, however, I thought better of it.

"I award you no points, and my God have mercy on your soul".

RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/11/2013 8:19:35 AM , Rating: 1
I think the Apocalypse is nigh because I am agreeing with Tony. I've been very critical of Apple, and I can see the benefit here.

On the other hand, I guess the watch and TV announcements that many Apple fans were sure were coming are missing. So much for Apple showing how t do a smartwatch right. And Apple will not be dominating the living room after all.

RE: Spin
By SpartanJet on 9/10/2013 3:41:10 PM , Rating: 2
I love the way your reply had nothing to do with the 64bit vs 32bit debate.

Please, tell us how a phone with 1-2gb RAM (too lazy to look it up but I know that the Samsung Note III has the most RAM Ive heard of at 3gb) would benefit AT ALL from a 64 bit OS. Aside from apps using slightly more RAM than they would have in a 32bit environment there is NO benefit right now.

Not that its a bad thing moving to 64 bit, but its no game changer and really not a benefit to this generations iphone users aside from a marketing bullet point.

RE: Spin
By kingmotley on 9/10/2013 10:31:48 PM , Rating: 3
There are many different parts of a processor. The 64-bitness you are thinking of is the addressable memory range. That is just 1 part of a 64-bit computer. The others being integer (register) size, and datapath. Many operations can be done in half the instructions, and execute faster using 64-bit instructions than a comparable 32-bit implementation. In addition, being able to load twice the memory per cycle is a very important aspect of computing performance.

It's the equivalent of tying down your desktop using tape drives. Everyone buys hard drives, not tape drives because they are so much faster. Can you imagine trying to boot your desktop off a tape drive? While the 64-bit datapath isn't quite as drastic, it does make a significant difference. It's why desktops have dual/tri-/quad channel memory after all. It's also why the iPhone 5S load applications so much faster than the 5.

RE: Spin
By Solandri on 9/11/2013 1:49:57 AM , Rating: 5
We went through this when we transitioned from the 80286 to 80386 (16-bit to 32-bit), and again from x86 to amd64 (32-bit to 64-bit).

The 16-bit to 32-bit transition is more drastic because it's a substantial increase in the number range you can represent in a single register. A 16-bit unsigned int (aka a short int) can vary from just 0 to 65535. A 32-bit unsigned int (aka a long int) can vary from 0 to 4,294,967,295. A lot of real-world calcs you do will exceed 65535, so require you to use long ints. Consequently 32-bit CPUs were a significant improvement in speed.

Nearly everything you do will fit in 32-bit registers. Even most scientific programming will fit in 32-bit registers (floats are 32-bit, doubles are 64-bit). So the apps which will benefit from 64-bit registers are very few and far between. They're mostly things which do high-precision 3D graphics and simulation. Hardly the type of thing you'd run on a phone.

You can see this in the first benchmark that turned up in Google. Pure integer operations using 64-bit ints (double longs) were twice as fast on a 64-bit CPU vs 32-bit CPU, as expected. When doing actual math (calculating Pi), the 64-bit CPU was about 35% faster. And when doing byte operations (data compression) the two were virtually identical in speed.

Desktops having dual/tri/quad channel memory is for an entirely different reason than bit-length. Modern CPUs operate so quickly that external memory can't keep up. The CPU itself has 2, sometimes 3 layers of cache memory, each sitting closer to the CPU's die, using successively faster (and more expensive) memory. In one cycle of a 3 GHz CPU, light itself can only travel a bit less than 10 cm, so in many cases the main RAM is positioned more than 1 cycle away from the CPU.

You need the cache memory in order to keep up with the CPU's instruction speed, and you need fast main memory in order to dump data into the cache faster. If the memory isn't fast enough, data won't get transferred in time and the CPU will have to sit idle on a cache miss for one cycle while it waits, regardless of whether it's 32-bit or 64-bit.

Since you can't exceed the speed of light, the only ways to speed up main memory are:

1) Position it closer to the CPU (not physically possible with the size of most CPUs and memory DIMMs).
2) Increase the bandwidth - the number of channels of memory which send data to the CPU simultaneously.

RE: Spin
By talonvor on 9/10/13, Rating: 0
RE: Spin
By kingmotley on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By Bobhacks on 9/10/2013 11:38:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yea but those 700 million devices weren't bought primarily for gaming.

RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/11/2013 8:25:30 AM , Rating: 2
If phones are not built for gaming, then why do people like reclaimer77 list the absence of Candy Crush as the downfall of WinPhone? (Never mind that Candy Crush is just a Bejewelled clone.)

RE: Spin
By BRB29 on 9/16/2013 8:06:33 AM , Rating: 2
because it's a phone first and a gaming device second. I hardly ever game on my phone unless I want to walk around with a dead phone. If I'm at home near my wall chargers, then my gaming choices are:

1. PC
2. Xbox360
3. PS3
4. Ipad
5. Laptop
6. Transformer

Dead last = phone.

You see why 700mil phones does not mean 700mil gaming machines?

Reclaimer77 say a lot of things. I don't know why you hold his words so dearly. He probably meant the absence of many powerful apps are missing on WP8(something that is changing). He just use the most popular app right now which is candy crush.

I see people read emails, news, etc...on their phones more than anything. I only see the teenagers and college kids play games. Working professionals normally need their phone to work so gaming is not an option, not to mention it is unprofessional. It is usually a tool first and entertainment second for everyone I associate with. Iphones are very popular business phones because of its closed nature and high stability.

RE: Spin
By Tony Swash on 9/11/13, Rating: 0
RE: Spin
By Monkey's Uncle on 9/12/2013 1:45:20 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry Bud, but you are comparing a fruit baskets to oranges.

Not sure where you got that '700 million iOS devices' from. I looked at your link and I see roughly 420 million max of iOS devices out there.

iOS is a general purpose OS and its devices are used for many p5ruposes other than playing games. They are not dedicated to gaming so you cannot predict that games are ever played on them. The better metric is the 130 million game center accounts as these reflect those that would use their device for gaming.

Playstation are dedicated to doing one thing and one thing only, and that is playing games. The same for XBox. You did not make as distinction between the iOS devices you were commenting on (typical TS behavior), but I did for you. Playstation 1 - 102.49 million, Playstation 2 - 154.4 million, Playstation 3 - 78 million. That is 334.89 million systems used for nothing at all except gaming.

I would say that over 330 million dedicated gaming machines trumps 130 million gaming accounts any day of the week.

Now with that said, let's look at this the same way you are: by raw device/OS sales:
According to Tony's chart:

420 million iOS devcices (assuming each represents a an iOS license)

100 million Windows 8
600 million Windows 7
384 million Windows Vista
400 million Windows XP

Using Tony's logic and lumping all Windows systems as being 'game capable' we add 'em up and you are looking at 1.484 BILLION gaming systems.

Kinda kick's Apple's butt for them doesn't it?

RE: Spin
By elleehswon on 9/10/2013 3:33:51 PM , Rating: 3
so, if i may chime in. 64 bit is nice to have before you hit that addressable range limit because it gives people time to start writing code for 64bit processors but i think it's going to be a few years before we see 3.23~gb ram smartphones, especially considering considering , as OP mentioned, memory footprint of apps is small. do i want 64 bit? sure. is it needed? no.

what most people don't realize is this is just apple's way of saying..oooh, that app is 64 bit only.. your iphone1-iphone 5,5c won't run, buy this new one!! it does!!

if anything, they should delay apps using 64 bit code until the iphone 5/5c is hitting EOL. by that time, everyone that owns an idevice will be long since off that hardware anyway. but, anyway....GRATS APPLE ON INTRODUCING FRAGMENTATION INTO YOUR HARDWARE PROFILE!!!

RE: Spin
By toffty on 9/10/2013 4:56:58 PM , Rating: 2
what most people don't realize is this is just apple's way of saying..oooh, that app is 64 bit only.. your iphone1-iphone 5,5c won't run, buy this new one!! it does!!

QFT. I can't say this enough but I'll say it at least one more time. QFT.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By toffty on 9/10/2013 6:34:25 PM , Rating: 2
Miss the point much?

If all new apps are made in 64 bit then everyone will have to upgrade to the new 64 bit phone to get the new apps. Sure most apps will be compiled for both 32 and 64 but then if you buy the app in 32 bit can you later get the 64 for free?

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/11/2013 1:51:24 AM , Rating: 2
It will be compiled for both if the developer decides too. No reason not to except size. There's also no reason why you would pay more for a 64bit version. It won't be any difference from OS X apps, windows 32 or 64bit, adobe photoshop 32and 64bit.

RE: Spin
By Solandri on 9/11/2013 2:02:36 AM , Rating: 2
64 bit is nice to have before you hit that addressable range limit because it gives people time to start writing code for 64bit processors

Actually, for anything written in C or a higher language, it's mostly a matter of replacing all instances of "int" with "long long", and "float" with "double". The only reason the x86 to amd64 transition took a while was because many legacy software companies had optimized their programs with small sections written in hand-tuned assembly. All those had to be re-written to work on 64-bit CPUs. e.g. If you used bit shift operations, the logic of the math no longer worked when you converted to 64-bit.

RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/11/2013 8:15:21 AM , Rating: 2
Whether or not 64 bit is useful on a phone remains to be seen. I don't care about that. But hitting 64 bit on ARM before ARM does it themselves is anachievement. People, myself included, have said Apple never innovates. Getting somewhere before anyone else does is innovation. Specs only matter when it is favour of Android, I guess. Apple and WinPhone clearly suck because there are no quad core chips in those phones. But now when someone has something no Android phone has, it isn't needed. Isn't this the attitude that Apple fans have been criticized for?

Step out of the Cult of Google long enough to see that even Apple can do something new sometimes. This is a big step to future-proofing the iOS ecosystem. It also leaves room for Apple to release a much more powerful iPad in the future. Aren't iPads dismissed as toys that can't do real work? With this chip and OS update, Apple could leave Android tablets in the dust, power wise.

RE: Spin
By Reclaimer77 on 9/11/2013 8:31:43 AM , Rating: 2
This is just a custom version of the existing ARMv8 architecture. It's not like Apple invented the 64bit ARM SoC. It's been available for some time.

This may shock people, but hey, I give props to Apple for being first to the market with this. However the reason they are, is because nobody else sees the point in doing so for a smartphone. It solves no problems, adds no benefits, and introduces several new problems. Like now having a fragmented app store of 32 and 64bit apps.

But I want to avoid the 64-bit bashfest going on here and simply point out that this isn't an Apple innovation. They're using an existing ARM 64bit architecture for this chip design. But this phone will be far obsolete before users get any benefit out of 64bit.

RE: Spin
By testerguy2 on 9/12/2013 11:05:15 AM , Rating: 2
What absolute bollocks you talk.

This is just a custom version of the existing ARMv8 architecture

Er, no. It's a completely bespoke architecture using an ARMv8 Instruction set , and they created it before anyone else could. Their custom architectures have both so far absolutely destroyed the competition in terms of power efficiency and performance.

It's not like Apple invented the 64bit ARM SoC

Er, no, no 64-bit ARM SoC has been available, ever, by anyone. And what Apple's used isn't that, either, it's their own design.

However the reason they are, is because nobody else sees the point in doing so for a smartphone

More absolute drivel. Samsung only today has come out saying their next phones will be 64-bit. They are just playing catchup. Their precious 4 month-old baby has already been left standing, as happens every year to people who don't shove their head up their arses.

Extremetech to make a point? Desperate. If you don't know why 64-bit is useful you have obviously never developed advanced games.

and introduces several new problems. Like now having a fragmented app store of 32 and 64bit apps

More absolute bollocks. If you're using a 5S and a 64 bit version is available it'll download that one seamlessly, it'll all appear as a single app. And if 64 bit isn't available it'll download the 32 bit one which will also work perfectly. And for developers to compile into 64-bit takes absolutely tiny changes which wont take longer than a few minutes.

You are so, so retarded. And even you're feigned attempt to make out like you're balanced by giving Apple 'props' comes with it's criticism in the rest of your post.

Absolute fanboy.

RE: Spin
By Meinolf on 9/11/2013 8:47:39 AM , Rating: 1
All I can say is everyone I know that has a android based product has crashing issues and lock ups. My iPhone has not had one issue since I got it over 2 years ago. Also iPad is the best tablet on the market I tested just about every tablet for work and nothing comes close the the speed/touch response/ease of use. Yes nothing is ground breaking but why does it need to be if it is the best at what it does.

RE: Spin
By Rukkian on 9/11/2013 10:12:25 AM , Rating: 3
I am sorry, but I call a big BS. Are there poorly written apps in android, sure! Are there in IOS - absolutely. If you "friends" all having constant crashing issues, then they are either using old, or cheap phones or are installing crap applications.

IOS devices are not immune to poorly written code by idiot developers anymore than any other device. If you have never had any crash, great, you are like several IOS users I know that do nothing but candy crush without ever really stressing your precious I-Device.

I actually am impressed they went with 64bit, but I really hoped they would bring something more to the table, if for no other reason than to push google and the android manufacturers even further. They added 64bit, which is nice, and I can see the advantage to the fingerprint reader, but otherwise everything they announced has been available for 1+years.

I have many friends that have IOS, and will never try anything else. I understand that, but even then tend to use several google products (maps for instance) since it is better, and then complain that they cannot set the default app. This locked down handholding is a big reason why many do not care for it, even if we see some nice hardware out of it.

Bottom line, every phone has strengths and weaknesses, don't be a fanboy either way.

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 3:27:06 PM , Rating: 2
"Moving to 64 bits and rewriting the OS for that is way more impressive than the DPI pissing contest in the Android realm"

How is that? What does 64 bit addressing do for you in a phone with 1GB RAM? The screen is important. It's only the part you look at and interface with 100% of the time.

RE: Spin
By Argon18 on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 5:22:37 PM , Rating: 2
This seems to be the questsion of the day... What does 64 bit addressing do for you in a phone with 1GB RAM?

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 6:12:02 PM , Rating: 2
No, you didnt... You said this (and a few other lines)

"It isn't just the 64bit OS, it's also the the 64bit CPU.
64-bit integers are almost 4x as fast in 64-bit code. Better code, no shifting of resources when you have access to them all the time."

This can be true when dealing with large amounts of data. It's minimally true on a high end PC today that gets heavy use in certain data intensive appslications, but mobile and all software written for it is designed to be small and efficient. 64 bit on mobile today is like buying an 18 wheel semi truck to go to the grocery store and buy milk and bread.

I am not saying its not useful some day, but we wont be seeing benefits for a long time. Better forward thinking than backwards though. It's not a "Bad thing", its just not all that good today.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By talonvor on 9/10/2013 7:26:47 PM , Rating: 3
The problem is that even though 4 hands can juggle more, in this case there isn't anything to juggle.

While its a cool thing, its not something that makes a difference. There are no practical benefits to having it at this time. Though I have no doubt we will see a flood of worthless 64 bit apps, I don't need a clock that's programmed in 64 bit. It doesn't do anything for me. 64 bit makes sense on things like a PC, where having more than 4gb of ram is a positive and the fact that there are more and more large apps that have switched over to 64 bit.

Those things are valid reasons to switch to 64 bit. There is not a single valid reason for making the switch on a phone of all things! Not one single valid reason!

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/10/13, Rating: 0
RE: Spin
By kingmotley on 9/10/2013 10:39:10 PM , Rating: 2
Except most applications can use the 64 registers. Do you or have you ever used a program that compares two strings? Yes, it's much much faster if you align them and use 64-bit operands to compare them (up to 8 times as fast) as doing it a byte at a time. Many compilers will do this automatically for you. Moving a chunk of memory around? Yes, most programs do that too. Also, up to 8 times as fast as doing it a byte at a time.

Also a 64-bit datapath also means the processor can access its memory twice as fast (the equivalent of dual channel memory in simplistic terms).

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 7:40:52 PM , Rating: 2
"4 hands can juggle more than 2"

Yes, but in your scenario, a big SQL server has 4 balls and a high end PC has 2, and a phone has 1 ball.

"You will be seeing benefits when it is released."

The CPU is faster, but even when all 32 bit its a lot faster. Apples CPU's always are. What will tell, is when current 3rd party apps that are now 32 bit get recoded for 64bit and we will see if the before and after work any better or any faster. (Hint, we have been through this on PC and Mac and it was extremely minimal, and only noticeable at all when large amounts of data were flowing). Phones are designed around NOT having large amounts of data.

RE: Spin
By Dug on 9/11/2013 2:11:16 AM , Rating: 1
Again it has nothing to do with large amounts of data. You are still thinking in terms of addressable memory which isn't the point I'm trying to make, or the reason to use a 64bit os and proc. Really, please take some courses in programming so you understand the benefits. Apple isn't going to spend the time or resources to create a 64bit os and proc because there's no benefit. Because so much of what the iPhone does natively (look at all the included apps), it will benefit. There's no way it couldn't.

Look at any program that's takes advantage of Intel's instruction set as an example. This is exactly what will happen with iOS in 64bit. Those instruction sets aren't relying on large amounts of memory or data, they are just optimized to do instructions faster.

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/11/2013 10:14:59 AM , Rating: 2
OF course there is benefits... it's just that users wont see them today. It's more of a "laying the ground work" for the future... No-one was saying it's a bad move or shouldn't be done, just that it isn't going to affect much in todays iPhone. Touting 64 bit OS is a bit gimmicky like touting quad/Octa cores. A lott of touting and a little benefit.

RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/11/2013 8:21:22 AM , Rating: 1
Why is 64 bit overkill but quad-core not overkill? Android fands are even worse than Apple fans, I am coming to see.

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/11/2013 10:11:50 AM , Rating: 2
Who said quad wasn't? Both are sort of future proofing but very little benefit as of today. Better to have than have not, but neither are game changing features on todays phones.

RE: Spin
By Argon18 on 9/10/2013 9:16:40 PM , Rating: 1
You keep mentioning RAM. Apparently you don't understand technology enough to be participating in this discussion. RAM addressing has nothing to do with it.

RE: Spin
By retrospooty on 9/10/2013 9:50:15 PM , Rating: 2
read on. you're replying to the middle of a thread that went on before you even replied.

RE: Spin
By Samus on 9/10/2013 5:56:18 PM , Rating: 3
Yet again, IOS hasn't changed since 2007.


RE: Spin
By troysavary on 9/11/2013 8:29:42 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, rewriting the kernel is not changing one bit.

RE: Spin
By Argon18 on 9/10/13, Rating: -1
RE: Spin
By Jeffk464 on 9/10/2013 5:15:35 PM , Rating: 2
I sure hope the thumbprint ID works better on the iphone then on my lenovo laptop.

RE: Spin
By Jorgexyz on 9/12/2013 3:35:28 PM , Rating: 2
To end speculations on what 64-bit architecture offers to normal use of the iPhone 5S and to answer its advantage over the old 32-bit architecture, let us reference ARM Holdings' own research.

The Cortex-A53 processor is the most efficient application processor ever, delivering mainstream smartphone experience in a quarter of the power in the respective process nodes.

The Cortex-A53 extremely power efficient ARMv8 processor is capable of supporting 32-bit ARMv7 code in AArch32 state and 64-bit code in the AArch64 execution state. It delivers more performance at higher power efficiency than the Cortex-A9 processor, and is capable of deployment as a standalone main applications processor which defines today's high-end mobile platforms.

The Cortex-A53 processor can be implemented individually or paired with the Cortex-A57 processor in a big.LITTLE configuration for optimum performance, scalability and energy efficiency.
Using ARM big.LITTLE technology the Cortex-A53 processor will efficiently run your connected life. This connected life will not just be the social media, news and email updates that you receive today, but will also enable devices to be contextually aware and connect to the Internet of things. Contextual awareness is already happening in smartphones today, but the Cortex-A53 processor's ultra-efficiency will allow your smartphone to use its sensor information, calendar, contact information and location-based services to provide relevant information.

The Cortex-A53 processor can deliver the compute power of today’s high-end smartphone, in lowest power and area footprint, enabling all-day battery life for typical device uses, Efficiently runs legacy ARM 32-bit applications; Features cache coherent interoperability with ARM Mali family graphics processing units (GPUs) for GPU compute applications; Offers optional reliability and scalability features for high-performance enterprise applications; Connects seamlessly to ARM interconnect IP with up to 16 core configurations with more in the future.

The Cortex-A57 processor delivers significantly more performance than Cortex-A15 processors, at a higher level of power efficiency. The performance increase on a range of integer and memory workloads: 75% faster browsing,96.4% better SPEC benchmark, 66% faster streaming, 135% better Dhrystone benchmark, based on 32-bit code. Performance for floating point code is expected to increase even more, and general object oriented code is also expected to improve significantly when recompiled to AArch64 to fully take advantage of the architectural features of ARMv8.

You can google search what these benchmarks are, if you are really interested to know the detailed work involved.

"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." -- Bill Gates

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