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The duo wants a 300 GB capacity disk by 2015

Sony and Panasonic have announced that they have signed a basic agreement that will see them jointly develop a new standard for professional-use optical discs. The objective of the two companies is to expand their business for long-term digital data storage by developing an optical disc with a capacity of at least 300 GB.
 
The two companies are directly targeting businesses that need archival storage including motion picture, broadcasting, and cloud service industries.

Optical discs are likely to remain a preferred long-term storage option because the discs are dust- and water-resistant. Another significant benefit of using optical discs is that they allow inter-generational compatibility between different formats -- that means older optical formats can be read on current generation optical drives.
 
Sony and Panasonic hope to make the 300GB optical disc available by 2015. 

Source: Sony



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RE: How cute
By Flunk on 7/29/2013 8:49:21 AM , Rating: 5
You might want to read the story more carefully, good luck finding flash that will remain non-volatile for 100+ years.


RE: How cute
By bug77 on 7/29/2013 9:00:43 AM , Rating: 2
CDs were supposed to be viable for 100+ years, too. They weren't, because of mechanical flaws.
I'm sure these disks will have their uses, but the DVD/BD drive today is the floppy drive of 10 years ago - it's going the way of the Dodo.


RE: How cute
By therealnickdanger on 7/29/2013 9:42:29 AM , Rating: 4
Disc rot (disc rust) has been a rather common occurrence in the short life span of Blu-ray. While it hasn't happened to me yet in my medium-sized collection of ~400 BDs (including TV shows), it is a well documented problem that has existed in LaserDisc, CD, and DVDs. Any physical media is subject to oxidation, humidity, heat, and time, not to mention physical distress.

Currently all my media is backed up digitally on my media server (~24TB). Rather, the discs are my backups to the digital files.

I don't think physical media will die out for a while, yet. While I'd like to see digital distribution proliferate, the MPAA needs to get over its DRM fad. Today I can buy lossy MP3s or lossless FLAC music from multiple sources online that I can copy and move to as many devices as I see fit. As such, I haven't bought a physical music CD in years. Movies/TV need to get there before I abandon physical media.


RE: How cute
By dgingerich on 7/29/2013 11:12:44 AM , Rating: 3
I have three three shelf book cases of DVDs, and unfortunately I have run into this "disc rust" or "disc rot" you're talking about. I have had several of my DVDs become unusable for seemingly no reason. they have no scratches, do defects noticeable in the reflector layer, yet will not play in any DVD player. (My whole second season of B5 went that way, Plus three Star Trek movies, Star Wars episode iv, Bulletproof Monk, Mythbusters' greatest hits, and many more.) All of them "protected" by copy protection so I couldn't back them up. Although I miss them, and they were all discovered just when I was getting the nostalgia to watch them, I'm not going to go out and buy them again. I'm fairly certain the media companies are doing something to these discs to make them fail in a short time, and they'll be doing the same thing to BluRays as well, and to any new format they come up with. Well, I'm not sending them any more money. I haven't bought a DVD or BluRay in the last three years, and I won't, because they're playing with us. They want to reap as much undeserved money from us as they can. I'm not going to play their game anymore, and I advise you don't either.


RE: How cute
By therealnickdanger on 7/29/2013 12:05:50 PM , Rating: 2
There's no conspiracy. Media companies struggle to preserve their own content. Original film negatives are stored in underground, bomb-proof vaults while digital elements are duplicated across multiple global digital archives. You and I can't afford the level of protection that they use. Even their attempts at preservation are often futile. Multiple fires have destroyed many archives of film over the decades for most studios.

There's no guaranteed archive.


RE: How cute
By ammaross on 7/29/2013 1:07:45 PM , Rating: 2
"There's no guaranteed archive."

No, but the simple act of running a RaidZ-2 on a FreeNAS box at your house, and one at a trusted friend/family and copying stuff from primary to secondary every now and again will certainly help the lay person. Then again, so would a less-costly distributed external hard-drive option (if you're not like the 24TB archiver who posted above).


RE: How cute
By therealnickdanger on 7/29/2013 4:10:17 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
No, but the simple act of running a RaidZ-2 on a FreeNAS box at your house, and one at a trusted friend/family and copying stuff from primary to secondary every now and again will certainly help the lay person . Then again, so would a less-costly distributed external hard-drive option (if you're not like the 24TB archiver who posted above).


I'd like to see a lay-person understand anything you just typed. ;-)


RE: How cute
By bug77 on 7/30/2013 7:41:42 AM , Rating: 2
"simple act" is pretty obvious :P


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/29/2013 12:14:46 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
My whole second season of B5 went that way


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Man I feel your pain...


RE: How cute
By dgingerich on 7/30/2013 1:42:15 PM , Rating: 2
Is that sarcasm?


RE: How cute
By Argon18 on 7/29/2013 3:25:39 PM , Rating: 3
It's the wrong comparison. Think of Magneto Optical disks, not CD/DVD. Magneto Optical are indeed good for many decades, and businesses still use them for long term archiving.

As the article says, this new 300GB disc is an enterprise solution, not a consumer solution.


RE: How cute
By aliasfox on 7/29/2013 9:15:05 AM , Rating: 2
Not sure optical discs are really designed to last that long either - I feel like I've read that the life expectancy of a pressed disc is ~50 yrs. I've had burned discs go bad in under a decade.

But I guess this is generally moot as long as someone creates a superceding medium before the old medium deteriorates - data can then be transfered to the new medium. Lather, rinse, repeat.


RE: How cute
By flyingpants1 on 7/29/2013 9:24:13 AM , Rating: 2
Burned discs are terrible. Almost anything besides Verbatim should not be trusted, ever.


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/29/2013 12:00:29 PM , Rating: 3
Taiyo Yuden FTW!


RE: How cute
By Samus on 7/29/2013 2:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
TY is very good media. The audio discs I burned in the mid90's are still perfect 20 years later, most of them having been through multiple binders stored in vehicles through hot Chicago summers and sub-zero Chicago winters.


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/30/2013 2:11:10 AM , Rating: 2
Hell yeah. I have about 500+ DVD's on TY and I haven't found a single one with any playback issues at all.


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/29/2013 11:57:47 AM , Rating: 1
Who gives a shit about storing things for 100+ years though? And yeah they said the same things about DVD's, we all see how that worked out.

By the way, Flash is NON volatile. I know what you mean, but just don't use the word "volatile" when discussing memory unless you use it right.

The OP is dead on. We're done with juggling disks. The near (hopefully) future is carrying around terabyte+ sized Flash memory around that's the size of a USB thumbdrive.


RE: How cute
By ammaross on 7/29/2013 1:11:20 PM , Rating: 2
Flash most certainly is volatile, just not within the time spans that the term is normally used for. If you left a flash drive to rot on a shelf for five years, the charge in the cells will likely have diminished/depleted by then. Wear leveling does more than not over-using flash cells; it cycles stagnant data to "refresh" the charge, to keep it from decaying beyond readability.


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/29/2013 2:10:32 PM , Rating: 2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-volatile_memory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-volatile_random-a...

Flash is non volatile. I don't know wtf you people are talking about.

quote:
If you left a flash drive to rot on a shelf for five years, the charge in the cells will likely have diminished/depleted by then.


????

Just...no, wrong.


RE: How cute
By zephyrprime on 7/29/2013 2:38:05 PM , Rating: 2
Flash relies on floating body charge (static electricity stuck in a transistor). There is no was it would not have discharge after a few years of no use. I've had cdrw go bad after a couple of years and static electricity is much more volatile than crystal phase.


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/29/2013 2:39:46 PM , Rating: 2
That doesn't mean it's "volatile" storage! Why don't you people look up what "volatile memory" actually means?


RE: How cute
By bug77 on 7/30/2013 7:45:10 AM , Rating: 2
Apparently it takes more than a couple of links to get something to your head. Here's one more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_memory

And a layman's test: power it off then power it on again. If it wasn't erased, it non-volatile.


RE: How cute
By Jaybus on 7/30/2013 10:58:27 AM , Rating: 2
Non-volatile means that it does not need a battery or other power source to retain its data for some reasonable amount of time. The difference is the amount of time (shelf life) that the flash can remain powered off before losing data, There are several kinds of flash and coding schemes. NOR flash has a longer shelf life than NAND. SLC coding has a longer shelf life than MLC coding.

The problem is, even NOR flash using SLC coding has a shelf life of perhaps a decade. There simply is not at this time any long term digital storage medium to compare to even mediocre quality ink on paper, let alone engraved stone and clay tablets that have lasted thousands of years. A long term digital storage medium is sorely needed. The only choice at this point is media rotation.


RE: How cute
By CaedenV on 7/30/2013 10:49:21 AM , Rating: 2
Being 'non-volatile' in flash simply means that it does not loose data immediately upon power loss (like SDRam or other memory storage devices). However, the life of a shelved SSD is MUCH shorter than the shelf life of an optical disc. Just a few years ago it was not uncomon to hear about file corruption occurring in SSDs after just a few months of not having a power source, and even current gen drives would not likely last much longer than a year or two. It is simply not a good archival storage medium.

Meanwhile, an optical disc can last a very long time in a dry low oxygen environment, which makes it a great archival medium, which is why a 500GB disc would be great for enterprise backups which are still typically done on tape because that is the next best thing.

The interesting thing of note here is that there was no mention of this being used for the consumer market. Blu Ray is the last optical standard that most of us will ever see (and good riddance!). Future movies, games, and media that will not fit on BluRay will simply move to cloud distribution, or (like movie theaters) HDD distribution.


RE: How cute
By Fritzr on 7/31/2013 12:18:47 AM , Rating: 2
Flash is non-volatile in the industry meaning of the term. Remove the power supply and the memory does not change state.

Flash is NOT archival in the industry meaning of the term. The stored data does decay over a period of months to years if not refreshed.

Archival storage is both non-volatile & archival. This means that it is not affected by power loss and retains data without refresh for periods of multiple decades at a minimum.

Currently the preferred archival storage is magnetic tape (9 track being the most popular)

Mag-tape requires a controlled environment storage to prevent media rot (CD, DVD, BD & HVD all share this problem)

A properly managed data warehouse will maintain multiple copies of each piece of stored media and will do error checks and refresh of stored data at intervals based on the experienced decay rate of the stored media. Doing a refresh every 10 years for instance would mean doing a test and copy of approx 0.83% of the stored data per month.

For those who own physical CD, DVD & BD there are image copiers that will create a digital DRM'd disk that retains the publisher's encryption unmodified and can be used to create a new physical 'protected' disk with an ISO burner.

If you are not experienced with this kind of software, you might wish to begin with Slysoft's AnyDVD and related packages. This is an expensive package, but is cheaper than replacing out-of-print disks and is easier than learning to use the free/low cost alternatives (currently there appear to be no free BD solutions, but there are several that are fairly cheap)


RE: How cute
By sheh on 7/29/2013 4:40:38 PM , Rating: 2
Any refs on wear leveling including refresh? SSDs or also USB flash/SD?


RE: How cute
By Jaybus on 7/30/2013 11:05:14 AM , Rating: 2
Here is a paper from Texas Instruments

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slaa334a/slaa334a.pdf


RE: How cute
By retrospooty on 7/29/2013 12:00:53 PM , Rating: 4
"You might want to read the story more carefully, good luck finding flash that will remain non-volatile for 100+ years."

Other than niche markets that need data kept safe for that long, its totally useless... Does anyone have software from 10 years ago on the same medium they had 10 years ago? I think I have a few pics from back then, but they have gone through countless hard drive upgrades since then... And today we have cloud/streaming and flash. I just dont see any disk based media becoming big. Blue Ray was the last major hurrah, and even it will never be as big as DVD was.


RE: How cute
By BRB29 on 7/29/2013 12:13:21 PM , Rating: 2
I have vinyls of most famous artists of decades past. There is nothing replacing it. The vinyl player itself is a classic piece of hardware that decorates your home pretty well. So yes, I have vinyls that are older than me and you.


RE: How cute
By Reclaimer77 on 7/29/2013 12:16:27 PM , Rating: 2
/facepalm

Vinyl is analog!


RE: How cute
By retrospooty on 7/29/2013 12:53:41 PM , Rating: 3
LOL... OK, but I wouldn't really classify old vinyl records as "software" and I certainly wouldn't call your use anything other than "niche" at this point.


RE: How cute
By Fritzr on 7/31/2013 12:36:29 AM , Rating: 2
Digital software stored on a vinyl LP is most definitely digital storage.

It is not the storage medium, it IS the way the data is written and read. Analog sound recording equipment has been used for digital storage for as long as there has been digital storage.

Examples from the 1980s

The C2N datasette from Commodore. It was an analog cassette recorder with a digital interface to the Commodore computer tied to the microphone input. This direct connection to the I/O pin on the CPU avoided the problem of sound levels encountered by the computers that used the standard microphone jack for output to the recorder and the earphone jack for input to the recorder.

The Sinclair computers (ZX-8x TS-1x00 among them) used an off the shelf analog recorder (cassette or reel-to-reel were most commonly used) and the digital signal was recorded as analog audio of hi & lo frequency sound.

These and other computers that were able to use analog cassette tapes could also receive broadcast recordings and correctly load them. You just connected the data input to the radio speaker or recorded the broadcast on tape (cassette or reel). Several broadcasters around the world offered these as ordinary consumer broadcasts for popular computer models. This method of data transmission is still used in the SW community.


RE: How cute
By SlyNine on 7/29/2013 1:31:16 PM , Rating: 2
Dreamcast collection.

Age of Empires 2. (I own it not valve, but I also barrow valves copy too)

Sega Saturn collection.

I'm sure there is 10 year old software in plenty of people's homes that exists on the same medium. 25 year old software on the other hand. I do have Atari games somewhere I suppose, that's if they still work.


RE: How cute
By retrospooty on 7/29/2013 1:39:13 PM , Rating: 2
My point is that keeping stuff like that, even for over 10 years is rare. 100 is just pointless, outside of extreme niche scenarios.


RE: How cute
By Flunk on 7/29/2013 1:40:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The two companies are directly targeting businesses that need archival storage including motion picture, broadcasting, and cloud service industries


Read the post before commenting please. The fact that these are for a specific niche use is right in there.


RE: How cute
By retrospooty on 7/30/2013 10:54:07 AM , Rating: 2
I read it and I commented on it. Other than those niche markets its totally useless with streaming and flash taking over.


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