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Trying to get ahead of Blu-ray, but with all of BR's delays, Toshiba already has a head start

In an effort to push the HD-DVD market forward and leading an advantage over Blu-ray, a report saying that Toshiba is selling its first generation HD-DVD players at a "substantial" loss. According to an analysis of Toshiba's bill-of-materials (BOM), its HD-A1 HD-DVD player amounts up to an estimated $674. In fact, costs are likely to be higher because that figure doesn't include costs of packaging, testing, remote control costs, cables and other costs.

One of the aspects of the HD-A1 player is that it uses a general purpose processor -- Intel's Pentium 4. Instead of using embedded application specific processors, Toshiba's player opted to use Intel's processor out of time constraint. The HD-A1 actually comes packed with a list of interesting technologies. For example, it uses a 1GB DIMM from Hynix for system memory, a 256MB flash memory disk from M-Systems and 32MB of MirrorBit flash memory from a company called Spansion. We're uncertain why the player comes packed with three different types of memory but according to iSuppli, all that memory adds up to about $247.

Analysts predict that Toshiba may be able to recoup its losses with subsequent HD-DVD players, but they question whether or not Toshiba's risk was worth taking. Blu-ray itself has been having significant problems making it into the hand's of consumers. Earlier this week DailyTech reported that Sony announced yet another delay in the Blu-ray journey.

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More and more interesting...
By ayat101 on 6/24/2006 11:26:08 AM , Rating: 1
I like BR's capacity... but that is all.

HD-DVD still has reasonable capacity, and may be bigger than BR, if multiple layer discs are easier to make for it... which would take away the only advantage BR has for me.

What really pushes me away from BR is that last time I checked, BR was supposed to be an interlaced format for video. Though I am not sure if this is still true.

... while HD-DVD was supposed to be pure progressive.

Recently the stories came out with BR still using MPEG2 for video and losing quality as a result. Would I be correct in guessing that HD-DVD ill use one of the more advanced newer codecs?

For me the format war is almost over:

... which would I choose? :

- higher capacity discs? Or vaporware capacity discs?

- cheaper discs, movies, and players? Or more expensive ones?

- Higher quality video? Or lower quality one using outdated codecs?

- Progressive video? Or interlaced video?

- i.e. HD-DVD? Or BR?

LOL :)




RE: More and more interesting...
By ayat101 on 6/24/2006 12:06:24 PM , Rating: 2
Hmmm... I just checked more recent info, and it apears that both formats will store progressive video, but players in the first generation will only output interlaced.

There are no tvs available that support 1080p apparently...

considering though I was thinking of playing video from a home theatre PC, on some nice screen in full resolution, I think both formats are equal in terms of progressive/interlaced issue...


RE: More and more interesting...
By pbrain on 6/24/2006 12:20:49 PM , Rating: 3
Currently, the only HD formats HD-DVD supports are 720p and 1080i, and it's speculative if it'll support 1080p in the future. Blu-ray, when it come out, will support 1080p.

1080p TV's do exist and are readily available. A search for "1080p" at Best Buy's website will show a few models.


Not speculative at all
By hmurchison on 6/24/2006 1:10:31 PM , Rating: 2
The recorder that Toshiba's shipping in Japan

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=2978

Supports 1080p output. The discs for both Blu-Ray and HD DVD are recorded in a progressive manner. Even with a 1080i output most 1080p HDTV will de-interlace back to a progressive picture before displaying so for most intents and purposes 1080p vs 1080i is marketechture.

Toshiba's gonna do fine. If they sell anywhere close to the 10k units of recorders in Japan they'll profit handsomely. It's a $3500 unit.


RE: Not speculative at all
By jeffbui on 6/24/2006 1:15:50 PM , Rating: 2
1080i content on my 1080p television looks horrible because of poor deinterlacing. For me, that one point puts me in the Blu-Ray camp.


RE: Not speculative at all
By bldckstark on 6/24/2006 1:42:37 PM , Rating: 2
Do you have the TV set for 1080i input? I ask because I am ignorant about a lot of the HD stuff.

This is off topic, but hey it's the weekend (and I'm at work). I just bought a 50" plasma (my first big screen and my first HD) that runs 1080i and lower. When I run my DVD player on 720p (max output) with my new Monster component cables the picture pops on and off, while the audio keeps right on trucking. My X360 at 1080i does not have this problem, even with the comparably cheap cables that come with it. Any ideas why?
I am miles away from being a videophile, but I can easily see the difference between 1080i and 720p. Even without my glasses on, you know, the ones with white medical tape on the bridge. I heard that the difference should be small. Did I hear wrong? Cuz I'm seeing different.


By hmurchison on 6/24/2006 2:06:52 PM , Rating: 2
Can you set the DVD player at 480i or 480p and see if that clears up the problem? If so then either your DVD is struggling to output 720p or your TV doesn't like it.

I have a 30" Philips HDTV but it doesn't even have DVI <grumble> but I'm looking to upgrade to a 50" 1080p Samsung next year.


RE: Not speculative at all
By PrinceGaz on 6/24/2006 4:08:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
with my new Monster component cables


Well obviously it can't be those Monster cables that are at fault as they are among the best you can get. Heh. Still, it might be worth trying connecting it using generic cables just to rule them out.


RE: Not speculative at all
By Decaydence on 6/24/2006 5:56:36 PM , Rating: 2
bldckstark, make sure the TV supports 720p. There are sets that support 1080i but not 720p. Also, make sure the different component inputs don't have certain inputs that they support. For instance, sometimes one component input will only support 480p where another input will support other formats. Also, when you say it pops on and off, do you mean a perfect picture will display and then pop off and then a perfect picture comes back? or is it unwatchable regardless of whether its popped "on" of "off"?


Or a new TV
By hmurchison on 6/24/2006 2:03:39 PM , Rating: 2
If your set is truly 1080p and has a horrible de-interlacer then chances are either something is broken or not setup correctly.

The best looking HDTV set out is often the Sony SXRD models, the first generation is a 1080p set with 1080i inputs which means it relies on de-interlacing and upscaling lesser input up to progressing 1080p display.

Then again you could have Quasi 1080p that uses Wobulation or some other trick (unless you have an LCD)



RE: More and more interesting...
By OddTSi on 6/24/2006 2:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
You are wrong. The HD-DVD format supports 1080p, it's the first batch of players that only support up to 1080i.

And while there are a few 1080p television sets for sale, by far the most HDTVs in homes are not 1080p.


By lamestlamer on 6/24/2006 4:03:50 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that 1080p24 is not supported by any current television interconnect technology. Component connections only have up to 1080i60 in the standard, as well as current HDMI. HDMI 1.3, I think, adds 1080p24, but I haven't heard of any displays or components that support it.

If everything just used VGA and DVI, we wouldn't ever have had all of this confusion, but TV standards must be oddballs with their luma and chrominance and whatnot. RGBHV is the simplest, oldest, and most scalable video format, and their is no need for proprietary, expensive, limited interconnects.

What will be interesting is when we see next gen DVDs with HD TV series on them which were shot in 1080i. Will their standards be flexible enough keep the shows in their native res throughout the pathway, or will it have to record 1080p60, which is a horrific waste of bandwidth and storage space.


RE: More and more interesting...
By sweb74 on 6/24/2006 6:05:18 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, Samsungs blu-ray player only supports 720p and 1080i, with it defaulting to 720p. The digital bits has a preview of it. This may be the case with the additional players that first come to the market, since all the 1080p tvs on the market do not have the ports that are able to accept 1080p video streams.


RE: More and more interesting...
By Dulanic on 6/24/2006 10:11:04 PM , Rating: 2
Actually that would be wrong, the Samsung Blu-ray player supports 1080p... we just got it in at work, and it is outputing 1080p to the Samsung 1080p DLP which takes 1080p input.


1080p TVs
By hmurchison on 6/24/2006 2:11:11 PM , Rating: 1
There are a few 1080p TVs.

HP makes a 58" model or something like that.
JVC makes their hi end TVs with 1080p support
Westinghouse makes a 1080p LCD

and a few others. The 2006 Sony SXRD will support 1080p as well.

Normally you don't have to worry about 1080i vs 1080p unless your TV borks de-interlacing. Think about this..both platforms have to take a 1080p24 signal from the disc and scale it to an output that your tv can handle better. So scaling is always involved but de-interlacing is the thing that your tv must do well. Proper de-interlacing reconstructs the progressive image and cadence to match whats on the disc.


Whoa
By broly8877 on 6/24/2006 10:50:04 AM , Rating: 2
That sounds like a decent PC :p




RE: Whoa
By phatboye on 6/24/2006 10:56:27 AM , Rating: 2
My home PC does not even have that much memory


RE: Whoa
By Griswold on 6/24/2006 2:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
No kidding...

Somebody has to ask though:

How hot does this thing run and can I replace the stock heatsink with some aftermarket product? ;)


RE: Whoa
By techfuzz on 6/24/2006 3:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
Better yet, how long till someone overclocks of P4 in it?

quote:
How hot does this thing run and can I replace the stock heatsink with some aftermarket product? ;)


RE: Whoa
By tuteja1986 on 6/25/2006 12:09:32 AM , Rating: 3
Toshiba ain't selling the HD-DVD at a loss :! but they aren't making craploads on it either.


BR FTW
By lwright84 on 6/24/2006 1:34:40 PM , Rating: 1
Blu-Ray will prevail because it is the only medium for which games will be developed for. It's that simple. :D




RE: BR FTW
By Suomynona on 6/24/2006 1:42:32 PM , Rating: 2
I'll buy one when the prices are proper. That means $300 or less, and even that seems to high.


RE: BR FTW
By bldckstark on 6/24/2006 1:43:23 PM , Rating: 2
I feel the same way, but I have a hard time saying that when I spent $4k on the TV.


RE: BR FTW
By hmurchison on 6/24/2006 2:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
Games don't require 25 and 50GB of data.


RE: BR FTW
By Decaydence on 6/24/2006 5:58:10 PM , Rating: 2
hopefully HD-dvd wins, I don't feel like paying 35 bucks for a movie.


*chuckle*
By Griswold on 6/24/2006 2:30:54 PM , Rating: 2
How do you spell format-bomb? S-O-N-Y :P


I'm waiting
By PitbulI on 6/25/2006 1:19:28 AM , Rating: 2
I just got a 51" Toshiba HD CRT TV just over a year ago and it supports 1080i and has 1 HDMI output and I'm not going to waste another 2,000+ on a new TV any time soon.

While my digital cable(Not HD yet) looks outdated on the TV, I'm running component from my Toshiba DVD player to the TV and I love the picture. I'm not going to trash this TV simply because 1080p came out and new HD-DVD/BR players want that.

Now I know that there will be a change in quality with the 1080p when it's widely used and that if I went with HDMI cables(OMG, Expensive) and an upconverting DVD player I could see a difference but I'm not bothered by it.

That last paragraph will be what 90% of the people will say when they turn down that 3,000 TV upgrade that the TV stores will try to sell them.

I got a 5 year warranty plan anyways with my TV and I doubt these CRT's will be perfect for the next 5 years so I'll wait for this TV to go before I waste more cash.




RE: I'm waiting
By namechamps on 6/25/2006 2:08:24 AM , Rating: 2
Um u do know that u dont need another TV.

Both formats encode the disks @ 1080P/24frames. However both formats output all SDTV & HDTV resolutions. (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p).

Your current DVD are running 480P w/ 5-6Gig video data / 2 hours.

Buying an HD DVD player (even if not today but say in 1 year when prices are $249?) would allow u to watch same movie in 1080i w/ aprox 20Gig video data / 2 hours.

So by just buying a new player (no new TV, or cables, or other exepensive equipment) you would get about double the resolution and about 3-4 times the bits (i.e PQ).

Everyone gets so hooked up on the latests. Yeah 1080P is nice but it doesn't make 1080i or 720p, or 768P (some plasmas) look like garbage.

The jumps in quality get less & less. Going from 480i to 480p w/ progressive scan DVD is a huge jump. From there to 720p is a nice jump that is noticable. From 720p to 1080i is hard to notice without looking for it. From 1080i to 1080p u will not notice in 99% of the time.

That being said I think every set will be 1080P within 2 years. Why?

1) content. all movies in HD-DVD & BR are 1080P
2) Advertising. The 1080P FULL HD sticker on the set draws lots of people in. Even if they dont need it they will buy it if the price is right.
3) price - as 1080P becomes mainstream the price premium will drop to nothing meaning u can get a 1080P set for $100 more than a 720P most people will go 1080P.

Compare 1080P vs 720P/1080i to EGA vs VGA. When VGA first came out it was expensive. Easily 3x cost of EGA but eventually EGA sold less & less and VGA more and more. And finally everyone stopped making EGA and VGA became the standard.

So my prediction for 2009 will be
virtually all sets solds will:
support (both display & input) 1080P
have multiple HDMI ports
have two way cable card (support VOD, interactive guides, etc)
most people will be buying HD disks (since cost is same and player prices will have droped to $199 or so).

We will finally be where they promised us in 2003. Too bad it took 6 years and lots of pissed of early adopters.


RE: I'm waiting
By masher2 (blog) on 6/25/2006 11:18:18 AM , Rating: 2
> "Everyone gets so hooked up on the latests. Yeah 1080P is nice but it doesn't make 1080i or 720p, or 768P (some plasmas) look like garbage."

Truer words were never spoken. The best image quality I've yet seen is from the Sony SXRD line...which accepts only a 1080i signal. It's by far superior to "wobulator" DLP TVs that accept true 1080p.

And lets not forget that a good player (or deinterlaced TV) can convert 1080i to 1080p with zero information loss, as long as the encoding tags are correct.


RE: I'm waiting
By Vertigo101 on 6/25/2006 2:07:47 PM , Rating: 2
I'm guessing you haven't seen uncompressed 1080p on the Wobulated 1080p DLP's that you're referencing, not to mention your beloved SXRD. LCoS is very nice, but "by far superior" is a subjective opinion. I'll take DLP's blacks any day.

Your remarks on the video processor are right on. Faroudja makes a great LCoS/ Video Processor combo.
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESdisplays/Faroudj...


RE: I'm waiting
By masher2 (blog) on 6/25/2006 2:38:30 PM , Rating: 2
> "I'm guessing you haven't seen uncompressed 1080p on the Wobulated 1080p DLP's "

A guess that would be, in this case, incorrect.

> "I'll take DLP's blacks any day"

I wasn't attempting to contrast DLP to LCoS as much as I was making a simple point. The difference between 1080i and 1080p is very small, invisible to most viewers, and utterly overwhelmed by differences in display technology.



Numbers look high
By BigLan on 6/24/2006 2:33:41 PM , Rating: 3
From the linked article... "The HD-A1 also uses $125 worth of memory, including a 1-gigabyte dual inline memory module (DIMM) from Hynix Semiconductor Inc., three other types of DRAM, a 256-megabyte flash memory disk from M-Systems and 32 megabytes of MirrorBit flash memory from Spansion, iSuppli said."

Newegg has a 1gb Dimm for $70, 256MB CF for $12 and even if the MirrorBit stuff is another $20 that only makes the total $100 at retail prices. I'm fairly sure toshiba pays less than that, which makes me wonder how accurate isuppli's estimates are for everything else. The actual drive is the biggest unknown as there's nothing to compare it against until PC HD drives drop.

I wonder how much Intel is letting Toshiba have the P4s for as well - aren't Intel a HD-DVD backer? If so, they're probably willing to drop the price a little.




RE: Numbers look high
By Merry on 6/24/2006 3:19:53 PM , Rating: 2
I would think Intel wanted to shift as many P4s as possible, with the impending arrival of core2


RE: Numbers look high
By caboosemoose on 6/25/2006 9:09:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm fairly sure toshiba pays less than that, which makes me wonder how accurate isuppli's estimates are for everything else.


I agree, Tosh will be paying much less that retail prices for its memory. If iSupply can't get the prices of widely available components right, then their estimates of items such as the P4 chip (which Intel may be selling off of uber low prices) and for the drive itself may be miles out. I wouldn't be suprised if Tosh are rbeaking even on the player.

Anyway, iSupply have a track record for utter bullshit when it comes to pricing up devices. I don't give them much credence.


WOW
By phatboye on 6/24/2006 10:49:56 AM , Rating: 2
I didn't think a HD-DVD would need anything close to the power of a p4. I wonder how well my computer will be able to playback HD-DVDs.




RE: WOW
By griffynz on 6/25/2006 9:19:18 PM , Rating: 2
I run an amd XP 2400+ with geforce 6600GT and 1gig DDR, normal deinterlaced DVD = 14 to 20% cpu with harware decoding (30-40% cpu only).
With 1280X720p Mpeg4 my rig runs at 100%+ with no hardware and 80-90% cpu with hardware decode enabled.

I haven't tried 1080p as my monitor can't display that high.

remember most dvd widescreen is only 720X405 in 16:9 format, thats 291600p pixels (interlaced = 1/2 that, 145800i)
1920X1080p = 2073600p pixels thats over 14 times as many pixels to be decoded.
Look for some duel core chips to be used in the future...


RE: WOW
By masher2 (blog) on 6/25/2006 10:44:34 PM , Rating: 2
> "remember most dvd widescreen is only 720X405 in 16:9 format...(interlaced = 1/2 that, 145800i)
1920X1080p = 2073600p pixels thats over 14 times as many pixels to be decoded.

Err, no not quite. First of all, DVDs are encoded at either 480p24 or 480i60. So even when the material is encoded as interlaced, the pixel rate is essentially identical (3:2 pulldown = 60 interlaced frames from 24 progressive ones). So you don't divide by two due to interlacing.

Secondly, even in a widescreen format, the pixels must be decoded. So you can't drop the 480 scan lines down to 405...especially since the black bars are usually telecined in, and thus have noise in them.

So 1080p has 6X the pixel count of a standard DVD...widescreen or not, interlaced or not.


Uses a Pentium 4?
By hondaman on 6/24/2006 2:18:53 PM , Rating: 2
Any bets on how soon someone hacks it to boot linux?




RE: Uses a Pentium 4?
By MDE on 6/24/2006 5:23:20 PM , Rating: 2
Why would you need to hack it? It runs Linux out of the box.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1967045,00.as...


The price advantage
By crystal clear on 6/24/2006 4:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
Just who doesnt welcome low prices or a price cut?
You just cannot afford to price yourself out of the market &
Sony tends to take the buyers for granted,even before their product is out in the market.They seem to be so confident of their new playstation that it will sell-just an example.
There is nothing as brand loyalty, but how much you are able
to pay or willing to pay for a product.
Ask any buyer what he has in Mind-the reply is "The best
product at the cheapest price available"-IT ULTIMATELY BOILS
DOWN TO MONEY-THE PRICE ADVANTAGE.




mad
By Wwhat on 6/24/2006 10:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
I think it would be mad to not wait for a dual-format player, why be used by the silly big corperations as guineapig.




A company called Spansion
By glennpratt on 6/24/2006 11:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
You mention Spansion as if you didn't realize it is a joint venture between AMD and Fujitsu, formerly AMD Flash memory.




Reminds me of XBox
By Trisped on 6/26/2006 2:07:31 PM , Rating: 2
Reminds me of those people that moded their XBox to run linux. This too could be used as a cheep PC, even better too since it has built in HD drive and HDMI out put to something higher res then a 480i TV.




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