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New console is expected to feature an octacore CPU, support for 50 GB Blu-Ray disc

Gaming magazine Edge is the latest to leak details on the hardware and software plans for Microsoft Corp.'s (MSFT) upcoming home-gaming console, code-named "next generation Xbox" or "Xbox 720".  

I. Xbox 720 -- Death of the Used Game?

Perhaps most interesting, the Edge report claims that Microsoft is preparing to come down hard on the used game market (a market customers love, but developers/console-makers hate because they don't get a cut).  

Games will be sold (optionally) on physical media -- 50 GB Blu-Ray discs (surely Blu-Ray kingpin Sony Corp. (TYO:6758) is pleased with that).  But to play the game you will have to have your console connected to the internet.  And each game will be uniquely associated to your Xbox Live account.  While the hacker crowd may be able to come up with elaborate workarounds, for most users that spells essentially a death sentence to second-hand or used games.

Used Xbox 360 games
The Xbox 720 will no longer allowed used games, reportedly. [Image Source: Multiplayer]

The Edge report echoes previous rumors on the hardware front, suggesting the console will carry a 1.6 GHz octa-core x64 CPU.  

However, it puts a face on the chip, suggesting that the CPU will be manufactured by Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) and is code-named Liverpool.  The console is also expected to pack a D3D11.x 800MHz graphics solution and 8GB of DDR3 RAM.

II. Developers Say PS4 is Easier to Develop For

While Nintendo Comp., Ltd. (TYO:7974) continues to be the market's quirky character with its hot-selling Wii U -- which launched last holiday season, featuring a more minimalist hardware spec and novel mini-tablet-based gaming -- Sony and Microsoft's next generation consoles are on the surface very similar.

Most reports indicate that both consoles will launch this holiday season, although a handful of reports have suggested an early launch sometime this spring/summer.  And both consoles carry a PC-like architecture.  This is a major shift for Sony, which reportedly admitted internally that it "messed up" with the PS3's more custom console architecture (versus a more PC-like hardware design).

Sony's PlayStation 4 is expected to carry 8 GB of DDR3, like Microsoft's Xbox 720.  Sony's "Durango" development kits.  AMD is expected to use the same Liverpool CPU, as well.  But where as Microsoft's GPU source has not been clarified, rumors indicate the PS4 will pack an AMD "R10XX" architecture GPU chip.

The upcoming PS4 is allegedly more powerful and easier to develop for than the Xbox 720.
[Image Source: Gamasutra]

According to Edge's industry sources, the PS4 is "slightly more powerful" and "very simple to work with."  The Xbox 720 is reportedly slightly harder to develop for with the current kits, a reversal of last generation's trends.

That could spell trouble for Microsoft.  However, Microsoft has some tricks up its sleeve, such as a next generation version of its Kinect motion controller and an improved version of its already thriving Xbox Live online gaming network.

Sources: Edge [1], [2]

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By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 11:45:43 AM , Rating: 5
I'm getting too old for consoles anyway. And this effort to kill used games seals the deal for me. Xbox it was nice knowing you, thanks for the good times, but it's back to 100% PC gaming for me now. Microsoft you've gone too far this time, sir.

RE: Good
By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 11:48:06 AM , Rating: 5
Also what's the difference between a "used game" and one that a friend brought over to play? I guess the "friends bringing games over" market was a huge threat to Microsoft. How dare groups of people get together and enjoy our console product!

RE: Good
By DanNeely on 2/6/2013 12:01:23 PM , Rating: 3
If they don't want to abuse customers they could allow you to take the disk to your friends console, authenticate as yourself, and then temporarily allow the game to play on their console instead of yours.

RE: Good
By Motoman on 2/6/2013 12:06:02 PM , Rating: 5
If they don't want to abuse customers they could allow you to buy/sell/trade used video games at will, like you've always done.

FIFY. The practice they're proposing is nothing but an abuse of the customer. Period.

RE: Good
By RufusM on 2/6/2013 2:47:29 PM , Rating: 5
+6 this fine man!

This effectively eliminates game rentals too, which is something the publishing pricks hate too, along with the RIAA, MPAA, etc.

This was part of the attraction of buying a console. With my other consoles I can plug them in many years from now and play any of its games. I don't have to worry about DRM and being locked out of a game, with the exception being multi-player relying on a game server somewhere. I can sell my used consoles and games to defray the cost of new ones.

If they move ahead with this, I will switch to Sony unless they do it too. If everyone moves to this model, I may do a boycott and just go do something else with my money.

RE: Good
By GulWestfale on 2/6/2013 3:18:02 PM , Rating: 5
is a banner hammer a hammer with banners on it, or are you saying that MS will have banners depicting hammers included with each xbox?

as for the topic... sony has recently applied for a patent that would allow their new console to associate each game disc wit one specific console, even if the console is not connected to the internet. the first thing that came to mind was -like reclaimer said- now i can't bring games to my brother's house anymore. plus, no more lending games to your friends. you'd have to actually bring your own console along with the game disc... lame. then there's the used market; i cannot justify spending $60 on a map pack for "Call of Bunnyhoppers" or "This Year's Uniform Designs in Last Year's Sports Game", but at $20 used it's alright for a weekend or two.
and when you look at prices of games on steam... well, why would i buy a console? i need a PC for my work, so it's already there. the price of a decent graphics card is roughly in line with the price of a console, so i'd rather spend my money on that, and get good games at a fair price.

and as far as netflix and youtube on my TV are concerned, you don't need a console for that, either. if you can't (or don't want to) stream that from your PC, you can just hook up your smartphone to your TV, and without paying for xbox live.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/13, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 6:17:23 PM , Rating: 2
not socialist countries, but countries with socialized medicine

RE: Good
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 2/6/2013 8:31:24 PM , Rating: 2
About 50% of pharma research is funded by gov funding

Even antibiotics, MRI machines, & genetic engineering were invented/funded by gov ..and mostly via gov money creation aka 'deficit' spending because all gov spending becomes income for the private sector

Seven Deadly Frauds of Economic Policy by Bank CEO/economist Warren Mosler from - --he's made billions from being middle-class following his own MMT economics advice

RE: Good
By inperfectdarkness on 2/7/2013 3:05:09 AM , Rating: 4
Negative, Ghostrider.

While the PC is less popular these days, that is the fault of CONSUMERS who have voted with their $$$ that they wanted consoles to be at the forefront of gaming. Consoles, which--mind you--are traditionally based around hardware sales for a loss, and software sale at a price which compensates for it.

The reason why PC games are lower cost (and the prices on them fall faster than their console bretheren) is because the MFG isn't trying to get back into the black after subsidizing your hardware purchase. It's the same reason why pre-paid plans are cheaper; you aren't paying in the long-term for your carrier to subsidize your phone.

On a side note, I am GREATLY disturbed by this trend towards elimination of second-hand markets. Even on Steam, I'm unwilling to buy new games because this business-model eliminates my ability to recoup any of my money on a game--if I decide I'm done using it.

What I can predict is that piracy (due to these kinds of draconian DRM measures) is going to skyrocket. Whereas before, I might be able to buy a $50 game and get $30 on trade-in, allowing me to purchase another new game for only $20 more. Instead, now I'll have to fork over $50 each time I want a new game. In the long run, this is only going to HURT developers. They will sell less games & piracy will increase dramatically; because people aren't willing to spend full-price on a game they might not even like.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/7/2013 4:20:33 AM , Rating: 2
The amount the console seller loses is insignificant when you consider how many games are being sold. The company would easily make up the hardware costs after only a handful of games sold to each console owner judging by the price difference between some PC and console games these days. The rest is profit. The console maker gets his cut of the higher price, but so do the developer and publisher. Subsidization is a small factor in the equation.

As for Steam, they take a 30% cut of everything sold, so the issue of the "manufacturer" taking his cut pops up on the PC as well.

Consider this: How many $100 million budget games have been developed for the PC which are not console ports? Yes, you are right the consumer has decided consoles are king. By their choices, they've shaped the developers' choices. They go where the money is. These big budget games simply would not exist if, with the market as it stands right now, they were sold on the PC exclusively because there's not enough sales to support the dev costs. And with the price slashing that goes on in the PC world, even more so.

PC game prices could simply not remain as low as they are if it weren't for the console market propping it up, as sad as that is. Can a company afford to make Batman Arkham City and sell it for $5 like frequently happens on Steam? Or a two-pack of Bioshock for $5-$10? No, that's simply ridiculous.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/7/13, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By 91TTZ on 2/7/2013 10:09:52 AM , Rating: 2
People were primarily driven to the phones/tablets/etc based on their design, but as the design of all the devices becomes more similar people are migrating to open ecosystems. For instance, free operating systems like Android and Linux seem to be gaining ground on Microsoft and Apple, and free programs are increasingly being used instead of pay programs.

This whole walled garden/no used software trend is just what it looks like when the pay software industry enters a downward spiral. Since they can no longer bully the overall industry (the way Microsoft and Apple tried to do) they're resorting to squeezing their existing customer base for more profit. This will, in turn, shrink their customer base as people become pissed off.

RE: Good
By TheJian on 2/10/2013 9:45:16 AM , Rating: 3
Steam doesn't stop piracy. Everything that comes on "steam only" is ripped immediately. There are groups that release steam games all the time.

CD Projekt noted this with the witcher 2, saying that the steam version was the most pirated version they sold...LOL.

NOTE it was sold on GOG with no protection the same day. DRM gets you nothing but a PITA for your HONEST PAYING customers.

Charge less (meaning more reasonable, say $20-30) for games and sell more copies without protections. Torchlight, Legends of Grimrock etc are paving the NEW wave of gaming. Thank god. They make just as much on torchlight 2 at $20 as they did with $60 retail games. The exact $12 per copy. Why pay some company $60 then because they're fat and bloated with useless management? Bring on the puny devs by the thousands ;)

I'll gladly pay $20-30 for a great torchlight 2 type game vs. D3 at $60. Ideally I'd like to see them charge $30 for the next torchlight and make it 50% larger/longer game. ;) I don't think games are worth more than $30 these days (especially when they are shorter than 15hrs). I guess that's why I concentrate on RPG/Strategy these days and not much FPS. I prefer to get 50-100hrs+ of gameplay for my money with no need to deal with online trash (and the punks/cheats that come with it).

ps. Clouds are stupid and need to die (especially in IT - totally dumb here). Buying an app from an appstore (or game) isn't cloud based. Cloud means RUNNING on that cloud and depending on it to work. Buying something from googleplay doesn't mean I run from there, I download it and install my game and run it OFFLINE on a tablet etc. Totally different from xbox720 requiring internet to even fire up your games. Even the disc you buy will be forced online in this case or not work. So in effect your local game disc becomes cloud forced. Obviously without a perf hit, but a PITA. So if my net is down I can't use it? That will go over big.

People put up with steam because of $5 sales all day and easy updates/downloads/purchases. Try that with $60 games forced online totally and watch sales tank. We buy from app stores, we don't play through or require them after purchase. Big difference. Even steam can be turned to offline mode usually (though I still view it as a virus...LOL - I own 0 steam games). LOVE gog though :)

You don't have to play on WOW servers my friend. Nor do you need to play on their servers for starcraft2 etc. The only game I know still not hacked is D3. Which I'm not sure enough people even care to play though I'm sure they working on remapping the rmah for private use as I type this ;) These tactics are pointless over time. Private Server hacks...Nuff said.

RE: Good
By djkrypplephite on 2/9/2013 10:38:40 PM , Rating: 2
I'm betting they will directly do game rentals via download much like iTunes does with movies. That way, they will profit from it and run retail competition out. So yes, you will still be able to rent I'm sure. At what price when they own a monopoly on it, who can say?

RE: Good
By Da W on 2/7/2013 9:07:48 AM , Rating: 3
You can buy a car and resell it.
You can buy a house and resell it, generally at a profit except for a market crash.
You can buy fournitures and resell them.
Everything you can buy, you own and can resell.
Except for... software. Now you rent. Like if the car still belonged to the factory.
It's time we Wake up dudes!
I know Microsoft lost me on this one. (Not that Sony will have me either....)

RE: Good
By 91TTZ on 2/7/2013 10:02:35 AM , Rating: 5
That would seem to open up a workaround:

You create a new Xbox Live account for each game you buy. When you sell the game you sell the account, too.

If they require a credit card then you use a gift card.

RE: Good
By mrisinger on 2/6/13, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By koenshaku on 2/7/2013 11:43:12 AM , Rating: 2
This article is both inconsistent and incoherent. I will take this all as nonsense, for one no one is so stupid to have a console require an internet connection for one. I can understand you not being able to play multiplayer on live without a $10 fee which is already in place in EA games this practice I doubt will go any further if it did you will find games that say on the boxes "can only be played on one system." which is crazy. Forgive the typos I have no idea why this text box is so effing small. I can see why the author has so much trouble if he writes in these lol.

RE: Good
By Ammohunt on 2/6/2013 12:20:08 PM , Rating: 3
I agree, with PC gaming i can purchase, download and play a game within hours and not have to pay for the internet twice all while sitting comfortably in my command chair with a display of my own.

RE: Good
By theapparition on 2/7/2013 11:35:22 AM , Rating: 2
Let's be fair here.

The article's conclusion about not being able to buy used games, or sharing, or everything else is just speculation. All they are doing is tracking serial numbers. And this has basically been part of PC gaming forever (you know, those activation codes and registrations).

I seriously doubt the conclusions this article is speculating on. I bet the used game and rental market will be fine.

RE: Good
By Ammohunt on 2/8/2013 1:18:08 PM , Rating: 2
Activation codes that are typically printed in a book that goes along with the game if you want to sell it. Schemes have varied over the years for sure but PC games are typically less expensive too.

RE: Good
By NellyFromMA on 2/6/13, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By FITCamaro on 2/6/2013 12:27:54 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sure there will be a way to transfer because otherwise you couldn't buy a game and then take it to someone's house. Plus services like Gamefly would be gone.

RE: Good
By bah12 on 2/6/2013 12:32:59 PM , Rating: 5
Piracy is a very minor part of this, what they are really looking to kill is GameFly. They hate the idea of a person getting to play the game first only to find out it is garbage, without shelling out the ridiculous $60.

RE: Good
By NellyFromMA on 2/6/13, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By bah12 on 2/6/2013 1:13:21 PM , Rating: 5
Piracy is the oh so sweet marketing sauce being used to make this palatable to the idiotic masses, but make no mistake the primary goal here is to create a "per user" model and strip you of actually "owning" anything.

If they can pull it off here, it won't be long before the media giants do the same for music/movies.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 3:18:52 PM , Rating: 1
If they can pull it off here, it won't be long before the media giants do the same for music/movies.

Ever heard of iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Xbox Live Marketplace, PSN... It's already here. Has been for a while.

RE: Good
By zerocks on 2/6/2013 3:44:31 PM , Rating: 4
Ever heard of iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Xbox Live Marketplace, PSN... It's already here. Has been for a while.

Yes because I can't still buy a DVD/Bluray and bring it around to a friends house to watch it without signing in to my account..

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 6:37:45 PM , Rating: 2
True. I guess the point was, the day is coming when you won't be able to buy digital media and ferry it around. And it's not just starting with MS. It's already well underway and has been for a while. We're half way there.

RE: Good
By tng on 2/6/2013 6:52:40 PM , Rating: 3
That is what the "Cloud" is for... so that they can keep track of what you have and you think it is convenient.

Yes I am paranoid.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/7/2013 4:35:24 AM , Rating: 2
Paranoid and correct.

RE: Good
By RufusM on 2/6/2013 4:26:31 PM , Rating: 3
If Microsoft wants to charge me $X/month to play any game in their library via DRM digital download (comparable to Neflix streaming) I'll buy that if it has enough value for the cost. I'll even buy a digital game that is DRM'd if the cost is low enough and it provides enough value.

I won't, however, buy a digital game for $60 (or digital movie from Amazon) that is DRM'd and can be taken away from me at their whim. When I buy a game I want to be able to play it when I want on the hardware it was designed for AND sell later like any other physical object I purchase (TV, computer, whatever). If they take that away, I simply won't participate in buying.

RE: Good
By NellyFromMA on 2/7/2013 12:35:02 PM , Rating: 3
How dare I think for myself. Hence be branded idiot.

RE: Good
By nafhan on 2/6/2013 1:25:59 PM , Rating: 2
It's impossible to know how big of a piece of the pie piracy is, actually. So, you really can't say that. Making it slightly more difficult (which is all they'll be doing here) is probably a bonus nonetheless.

Anyway, what you (and MS) do know is that there's a certain chain of stores in nearly every town in the country kept alive in no small part by profits off used video game sales. The people buying the used games ARE very clearly willing to pay real money for games. They might be willing to wait until the prices come down a bit, but, regardless, unlike pirates, they are verified paying customers.

RE: Good
By ruronirican on 2/6/13, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By StanO360 on 2/6/2013 4:28:22 PM , Rating: 3
Wow, great point. All the mid-tier games will be screwed by this. People will stop taking chances with games. They also will wait until the price drops.

Consumers are relentless and vicious, they will punish companies that don't give them good value for their money.

RE: Good
By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 4:34:55 PM , Rating: 2
Paying customers to whatever chain they are purchasing the game from... the developers and publishers of said game don't see a dime from that transaction.

Boo hoo?

Next we'll have to stop the 'evil' practice of used book stores!

Publishers are only entitled to profits from the original point of sale. To put forth this argument that they are owed any more than that, is absurd.

In all events with games now being made costing much more than in the past... every used game sold in a retail venue means that the one that actually could help the company stay afloat is sitting on the shelf

No. Wrong. That is entirely the wrong way of looking at this. Laughably so.

RE: Good
By RufusM on 2/6/2013 5:31:19 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention anything else used if this is the new model going forward:

-Cars...nope those are locked to your retina scan. If anyone else tries to drive the car it won't work.

-Clothes...nope those are now locked to your DNA. If anyone else wears it...poof it disintegrates.

...and on and on.

RE: Good
By NellyFromMA on 2/7/13, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By HostileEffect on 2/7/2013 7:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
I'm over the age of 21 and have held a physically demanding job for enough years to know that the few dollars I make will never be worth the blood, sweat, and tears I put into it, much less an over priced disc.

I have been burned too many times by media to keep feeding them money for over priced garbage and I simply stopped buying it. If Media and game companies produced something other than garbage and offered it for a sane price without DRM restrictions, $5.99 DVD, $10.99 Blu-ray, $39.99 DVD game, I may be more inclined to risk money on it again.

I still remember when good original PC games cost $29.99-39.99 with the rare exception of a $50 game that was the must have AAA title. Now it seems $49.99 is the standard not including sales tax or gas to get the product.

Example of being burned: I bought a few AAA titles but with online activations, I couldn't play until nearly a week after purchase when I had the time to take my laptop to a public internet site. Anything over STEAM was not a pleasant experience either.

RE: Good
By NellyFromMA on 2/11/2013 4:40:43 PM , Rating: 2
That makes 1 person so far. So what's an industry to do when the model in existance for 15-20 years doesn't address its needs? I just wonder what an alternative could even be vs 9/10 posters on here who just think they are entitled to everything because its digital and therefor their own (hint, its not).

RE: Good
By Ammohunt on 2/6/2013 1:28:57 PM , Rating: 5
Good point this may actually affect game sales by killing off word of mouth. I personally read multiple reviews and more importantly user feedback before i even consider putting money down.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/7/2013 4:12:24 AM , Rating: 2
Piracy is the least of their concerns.

Look at the billions in revenue that Gamestop makes. A lot of that is on the back of used game sales, money that publishers and developers only saw the first time it was sold as new, not the 2nd/3rd/4th time.

Its all about the used market. Console piracy is so small in comparison its almost a rounding error.

RE: Good
By enlil242 on 2/7/2013 11:11:44 AM , Rating: 3
Microsoft and Game Publishers have to realize that I will not pay $60 to play a game I may find "meh". Right now, if I find that kind of game at GameStop for $20, I'll buy it as that is my price point for these kind of "B" titles. There are not enough "blockbuster titles" that will compel me to pay that kind of money for let alone invest in the console and XBOX Live subscription.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/7/2013 5:37:08 PM , Rating: 2
Same here. Rapid price reduction like what is done on Steam is a happy medium IMHO.

RE: Good
By NellyFromMA on 2/6/2013 1:05:40 PM , Rating: 1
LOL I was downrated for offering insight. Sorry for disagreeing with the forum gods!

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 3:15:38 PM , Rating: 1
You were downrated by pirates.

RE: Good
By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 3:34:56 PM , Rating: 4
You call that insight? As if we're not already tired of this boogeyman "pirate" excuse being used for everything?

Honestly what percentage of Xbox consoles do you actually believe were modded? Maybe like 2%, maybe. Probably less. Oh yeah, that's really killed Microsoft's profits!

RE: Good
By StanO360 on 2/6/2013 4:30:05 PM , Rating: 2
No where close to 2%. But piracy is not the issue with that, it's playing COD WAW and guys shooting tank rounds out of their carbines!

RE: Good
By JKflipflop98 on 2/7/2013 10:13:54 AM , Rating: 2
It is "the issue with that" because you have to have a modded box to play pirated games. That's the real reason people mod their xboxes. Being able to auto-fire howitzer rounds out of your MP5 is just a nice bonus.

RE: Good
By MrBlastman on 2/6/2013 4:56:16 PM , Rating: 5
No what killed console sales was not piracy but instead... lack of interest!

I owned consoles before the latest gen--at least one of each for the most part all the way back to the 2600. It stopped (almost) with the most recent iteration. I do own a Wii but, admittedly, it isn't really what you would consider the current family. I saw no point in getting an 360 or PS 3 because--the few games I was interested in that came out on those machines were ported to the PC with better interfaces and controls.

Consoles killed themselves. Not piracy. They became redundant. At some point the end user asks themselves--Hey! I have to be online to use this thing... but my PC does too. And my PC has a keyboard. A mouse. Better controllers--all this and more. Why bother?

And so they did.

PC gaming, like it or not, is strong right now. Not due to pirates killing the consoles. It was due to them becoming an obsolete concept.

Draconian measures like preventing used game sales kills all interest I had in the newer systems (which was near zero anyways). Most of my older systems were fueled by used games. Now you can't even do that. Why bother? I have a toddler now and am faced with a decision: To pay full price for new releases on consoles or let her use the old stuff that I have.

It is easy to answer the question too--use the older stuff. Or let her play Steam games that I buy on super sales.

Forget it Microsoft. You're being asinine with this move.

RE: Good
By tng on 2/6/2013 3:28:55 PM , Rating: 3
If MS allowed digital used game sales and paired it with the ability to log in as another live user and play a game that user has (for the whole bring a game to a friend's house scenario) this would be a non-issue for 99.9% of the user base.

I think that you are incorrect about this.

If you want to play your game on a friends console because his monitor is bigger, but he does not own the game? You basically have to tell MS everywhere you play, what you play, how long and with who?

This is just a scheme that will promote more piracy.

RE: Good
By TerranMagistrate on 2/6/2013 12:21:21 PM , Rating: 2
That or there's always the PS4 assuming Sony isn't foolish enough to follow suit. Speaking of PC gaming, I can hardly wait for SC2:HotS.

RE: Good
By Azethoth on 2/6/2013 12:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, lets be serious. All the really good games are on PC anyway.

My XBox is so that I can pay $500 - $600 to play 2 or 3 versions of Halo + some Kinect and dance titles.

RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/6/2013 3:25:22 PM , Rating: 2
If it's that easy to fool you out of $600, I have a white van in the parking lot full of "quality" merchandise.

RE: Good
By tng on 2/6/2013 3:32:58 PM , Rating: 2
...assuming Sony isn't foolish enough to follow suit.

RE: Good
By BZDTemp on 2/6/13, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 3:44:36 PM , Rating: 3
To old for consoles!? Why - aren't they allowed at the retirement home?

Har har. Yeah I was just there, fucking your grandmother :)

RE: Good
By tng on 2/6/2013 6:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
That was AWESOME RC. Best laugh I have had for a week!

RE: Good
By mmntech on 2/6/2013 2:14:56 PM , Rating: 2
If they're going to make may buy new games, they're going to have to get a lot cheaper than they are now. Steam has frequent sales to encourage me to buy PC games. $60 a pop for games is too much.

And requiring an internet connection just to play? Didn't they learn anything from Ubisoft? All I can say is it makes my decision a lot easier if they do implement this.

RE: Good
By eagle470 on 2/6/13, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 3:11:36 PM , Rating: 1
Good god! There IS one person on the web who can still think! ;)

RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/6/2013 3:34:56 PM , Rating: 3
Correct, but it certainly isn't the guy above you.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 6:22:33 PM , Rating: 1
The tidal wave of entitlement is staggering.

RE: Good
By tng on 2/6/2013 6:50:43 PM , Rating: 3
...developers spend the money to hire the people... Those people get paid by that company... All that costs money... the developer has bills to pay...
Funny, where I work, we have mechanical engineers, software engineers, manufacturing personnel, accounting, etc...

All of whom make a fairly large sum of money for what they do and when a machine goes out the door we can count on parts and service sales and other income over the lifetime of the tool, but when that machine is sold to another customer we don't brick the software in it until we get a fee! It is just unethical.

If it is a question of licensing as opposed to buying that is one thing. No where at any checkout counter was I ever told that I was being licensed to use, but buying.

RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/6/2013 6:52:37 PM , Rating: 3

That's not a word you know the definition to.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/7/2013 4:26:11 AM , Rating: 1
But you, sir, most certainly do. You need only look in the mirror.

RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/7/2013 5:43:25 PM , Rating: 2
What did I say I was entitled to? What are you even talking about?

If you're going to debate, put some effort into it. Otherwise you bore me.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/8/2013 2:41:32 AM , Rating: 2
I put the same effort forth as you did.

Entitlement. That's not a word you know the definition to.

This is debate? Try again.

RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/8/13, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/6/2013 3:39:04 PM , Rating: 2
You were a retailer, not a developer. Completely different. People could also buy anything they wanted from your store and sell it on Craigslist the very next day.

Want to try again?

RE: Good
By eagle470 on 2/6/13, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/6/2013 4:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
My fault.

Either way, you're still comparing apples to oranges. Developers make a product to sell. Developers are also not usually the ones who profit from a games sales, that would be the publisher. Most of the time, royalties do not get back to the developer unless the developer is a subsidiary of the publisher. Developers are often paid for a contract and then their job is done.

Not that I would condone piracy, I don't.

-your services often add value to the car, and that car can be sold for a higher price.

RE: Good
By eagle470 on 2/6/2013 4:19:48 PM , Rating: 2
Negatory, My services usually kept the car running, the car was always depreciating in value. Of course I worked in a rather poor area, it was kind of sad sometimes....But I digress.

The developer wouldn't have a job if it weren't for the publisher though, so how can you justify screwing over the publisher, when if they go out of business, the developer no longer has contracts to win.

RE: Good
By Rukkian on 2/6/2013 5:06:56 PM , Rating: 3
Then the developers should make something that is not crap that I may want to keep for more than a month. If I pay $60 for a game, I should own it. If you want to go to a service where I pay $5/ month for a game, then fine, but if I have to pay $60, then have no rights to unload it to another fool when the game sucks (as most seem to nowadays), then you can get bent.

I will stop buying games at full price, plain and simple as the value is not longer there, and I am betting I will not be the only one.

RE: Good
By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 5:20:59 PM , Rating: 2
Also nobody is talking about micro-transactions!!! Every game is heading that way these days. Even used games can be profitable with micro-transactions.

RE: Good
By ClownPuncher on 2/6/2013 7:02:37 PM , Rating: 2
So, a car that doesn't work has the same value as one that does?

RE: Good
By Reclaimer77 on 2/6/2013 4:50:26 PM , Rating: 1
Wow, big words. When I grow up I hope I too can aspire to be a manager at a Meineke.

By the way that's the proper spelling. How someone who supposedly has worked there can't even spell it right, then goes off on a rant about others intelligence, is beyond me. You probably saw the word MEINEKE a thousand times a day, you would think it would sink in?

Those people get paid by that company to make the game. All that costs money, if the companies you people worked for had the business model you are apparently advocating for, you're employer would be out of business in a heart beat.

What the fuck are you talking about? There has been a used console game market in full force since the goddamn Atari!!! Over thirty years now! How has that driven people out of business??

You're twisting my argument to be like some sort of statement of entitlement, and I strongly object to that. Strongly!

Let me make this real fucking simple. Lets say I run a lemonade stand. I figure all my overhead and settle on a price per-drink that gives me the profit margin I want. If Suzie and Sandy decide to share a cup of lemonade, have I lost money? NO! Have I lost a POTENTIAL sale? Yes. But I have not lost anything. I've still made the profit on Suzie's sale that I've decided on before hand.

Maybe this concept is too deep for your muffler shuffling ass to comprehend. But game developers and publishers have already made EVERY RED CENT off the original game sale that they wanted to.

So where you get off saying I'm complaining about game prices, or feel entitled to free gaming, if offensive to me. That's not the argument at all.

RE: Good
By inperfectdarkness on 2/7/2013 3:15:54 AM , Rating: 2
$50 for an N64 game also meant that I could sell it at funcoland and buy something else.

As a consumer, if you offer ANY product that I am unable to resell for partial-cost, I am very, very unlikely to buy from you. Unless, of course, you're offering it at such a huge discount that it's in the price range of a starbucks coffee or a combo meal from taco-bell.

This goes for everything from games to cars.

RE: Good
By 91TTZ on 2/7/2013 10:15:18 AM , Rating: 1
So what's your opinion on people being able to buy used cars? After that initial sale, the dealer/manufacturer doesn't get a cut of any subsequent sales. Should car manufacturers be allowed to prevent the sale of used cars? Maybe they can say it's a safety issue and that they can't guarantee the safety of a car that didn't come directly from them. It would be all bullshit, but would you find such tactics acceptable?


I agree. Just don't complain when it turns out that the market can't bear it and these companies go out of business.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 3:13:58 PM , Rating: 2
PC is increasingly moving to digital distribution. Steam is exactly what MS is proposing already. You cannot sell your games on Steam. You cannot play your games on another PC unless you log in with your Steam account. The only difference is that you can buy a disc to install it instead of digital download only. Otherwise, the two models are identical. Unless you're going to advocate playing only DRM-free, DVD only PC games, in which case, you don't have too many options left.

RE: Good
By kattanna on 2/6/2013 3:42:32 PM , Rating: 2
And each game will be uniquely associated to your Xbox Live account.

and that sounds exactly like what steam does. If I want to play a game I have bought through steam, I can log into someone else's computer with MY steam account and play it.

sounds exactly the same to me

though.. you cannot sell games you have bought on steam to others.. but you can get great deals during the sales

RE: Good
By seamonkey79 on 2/6/2013 7:02:32 PM , Rating: 3
I can, however, pay $5 for a game 6 months ago people were paying $60 to pre-order. Something tells me MS isn't going to go for that quite as readily, considering four year old games (Batman Arkham Asylum) still run for $20 on their download service.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/6/2013 8:47:46 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Consoles are moving to what has been on the PC for years.

It is idiotic to cry about consoles being restrictive by potentially killing used game sales, and then looking to the even more restrictive digital distribution platforms on the PC to be your savior. You're dealing with restrictions on what you can do with your games in both cases.

RE: Good
By 91TTZ on 2/7/2013 10:20:57 AM , Rating: 2
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the allure of Steam is that it lets you buy a game for a greatly reduced price in exchange for not being able to resell it. I heard of people buying an older game for $10 instead of $40. Microsoft is trying to introduce a service where you get the tradeoff of not being able to resell the game without getting the benefit of the greatly reduced price.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/7/2013 5:46:27 PM , Rating: 1
We'll see how it works out. Console games right now drop in price pretty quickly, although it can take the more popular ones a while to hit the ~$10 range that Steam can offer during their holiday sales. Just wait a month or two and you save $20. Wait a year and you'll save over half.

Nintendo is the one exception, their games hold value for very long.

Right now Assassin's Creed 3 and Halo 4 are both $40 on Amazon. Halo 4 obviously isn't on PC, but AC3 is $50 on Steam. Far Cry 3 on the other hand costs the same on both platforms, $50.

It really depends. The other thing to keep in mind is that used game sales are usually not much lower than new, $5 or so. The benefit isn't in the buying, its in the selling.

I agree with you though, how acceptable locking down game licenses is depends on how cheaply games can be bought for. Steam style sales will help their "karma" a great deal, and it'll also sell copies to people who otherwise wouldn't buy a game when it is new.

RE: Good
By StanO360 on 2/6/2013 4:24:15 PM , Rating: 2
While I agree with you, Sony will do the same. The problem is this lowers the value of the product. So while they may sell more games per unit (which MS has mastered already) they will surely sell fewer units.

Used games were definitely a consideration in our purchase of a 360, but we still have bought our fair share of new.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/6/2013 5:56:14 PM , Rating: 2
I've been mainly a PC gamer for forever. Used game sales don't factor in though, we've had even greater restrictions by services like Steam or Battlenet for years.

No chance at all of selling your game licenses, period. You can't even sell your account, that's against the EULA. A few services like GOG or Humble Bundle don't have DRM, but reselling those downloads is against the law.

In any case, killing used game sales is just one more place where consoles are catching up with the PC. Going back to the PC with its more restrictive policies because the consoles might go down that same road seems weird to me. Base that decision on something else.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/6/2013 5:59:43 PM , Rating: 1
The one important difference with Steam though are their periodic sales. A lot of my game collection comes from those sales. It is a big way to offset Steam's restrictive DRM.

You're locked and you can't resell anything but at least its cheap.

Perhaps Microsoft will do something similar. It kind of happens already with most console games, wait two or three months and they're a half or a third of their original retail price. The only games that regularly keep their value are Nintendo's.

RE: Good
By augiem on 2/6/2013 6:35:38 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is, many of the cheap games on Steam are really being funded by the people who purchase them at full price. And many of them are console ports. Consoles both have a larger user-base and the games cost more even when they're older, so that's accounts for a lot of the company's revenue. If the early adopters and console sales were to be taken out of the equation, selling the games for those prices on Steam would mean the developers go out of business. So, currently Steam is a GREAT deal, but it's only part of a larger eco system that enables it to be such. The market could not support it if games were to become that cheap all around, unless of course 1) the number of users grows in proportion to match the price reduction or 2) companies implement alternative methods for revenue (micro transactions, merchandising, whatever) or 3) the cost of development drops drastically.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/6/2013 7:48:45 PM , Rating: 1
Certainly. I was only going into how things are, not why they are the way things are.

One other thing to note though is that usage/buying metrics tied into specific user accounts provides a really good way to maximize income.

Let's use Portal 2 for example. There is a large number of people that will buy the game for $50 at release. That number starts big and peters out over time. Once they've used up the $50 price point for all its worth, they drop it to $30, then $20. On top of that they do holiday sales where they might sell it for $6. In all those cases, they're maximizing income from people who want to play it earlier and then they secure sales from people who won't spend over a certain amount for whatever reason. They cover the full spectrum of buyers.

Whether or not this trains people to wait for games to get cheaper is another discussion. It could be, I dunno. If I really want a game (Portal 2, Starcraft 2) then I'll buy brand new, otherwise I'm ok waiting (maybe I'll get Far Cry 3 for $15, etc).

Its honestly similar to how b&m retailers do things, just much much faster and more reactive. Its also clearly very profitable. If Microsoft is smart then they'll do something close to what Steam is with pricing. It would take some of the sting out of restricting used game sales.

And many of them are console ports. Consoles both have a larger user-base and the games cost more even when they're older

Nintendo is the exception to this rule, their games hold value for ages. Otherwise buying new console games is pretty affordable after only a few months. They drop in price very quickly. Even blockbusters like Assassin's Creed 3 and Halo 4 are $40 new from Amazon. AC3 is still $50 on Steam. Moderately popular games like Sleeping Dogs costs $40 both for console and for Steam.

RE: Good
By Hairyfeet on 2/6/2013 10:32:38 PM , Rating: 2
Ironically myself and all my PC playing buds never pay full retail, the only ones we know that do are the consolers and they are taking trade in into account to offset some of the cost of the game.

Personally I think if MSFT and Sony do this all they will do is hasten the death of the $60 price point, that's all. I mean even if you got rid of the Steam sales (where I get most of my games) tomorrow there have been just so many triple A titles in the past 7 years that even if I bought a game a day from the cheap bin I'd never ever play them all in just the genres (RTS, RPG and FPS) that I enjoy, so why would I ever pay full price?

The simple fact is we consumers are just swimming in cheap entertainment choices right now so its gonna get harder and harder to justify that $60 price point. I mean we PC gamers have had incredible looking games since Far Cry 1 in what? 2004? Then there is all the cheap mobile games, the FTP MMOs and shooters, movies, music, we got entertainment coming out our behinds folks!

I honestly think both MSFT and Sony are living in a little bubble where they are looking at a PPT slide made by a PHB saying "If we just get rid of used games every one of those would be a $60 sale!" when IRL a LOT of those consoles sales are made partially on the back of trade ins. When they wipe that out I have a feeling we're gonna see another game crash like we did in 84, where a lot of publishers spend too much on big name titles only to find the sales just aren't there. Should be interesting to see what happens, I'm betting a mix of episodic gaming with DLCs and expansion packs making $30 or even $20 the new price point myself.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/7/2013 12:14:40 AM , Rating: 1
The only AAA games I buy brand new are ones by Valve and Steam. Some indies too, games like FTL, but otherwise I'll wait until the price drops.

RE: Good
By TakinYourPoints on 2/7/2013 12:27:58 AM , Rating: 1
Whoops, it should read "ones by Valve and Blizzard "

RE: Good
By HostileEffect on 2/6/2013 10:57:52 PM , Rating: 2
I guess I can scratch the Xbox720 off my potential buys list like the Xbox360 and RRoD.

I may get a PS3 if I come across one for cheap, I hear it can run custom firmware.

RE: Good
By WinstonSmith on 2/7/2013 9:55:02 AM , Rating: 2
"this effort to kill used games seals the deal for me"

Initially, Steam was touted as being necessary due to PC game piracy. But it also had the "convenient" side effect of killing the ability to play used PC games that required Steam to install, something that rapidly became virtually all of them. That ended any further PC gaming updates for me since I refused to put up with that crap.

Now, the same low is about to be reached with consoles. Greedy bastards...

RE: Good
By lexluthermiester on 2/8/2013 5:25:25 AM , Rating: 2
Ah, but some of us skipped the 360 after too many defective systems and not enough ACTUAL good games. And with my PS3 recently YLOD, I'm not to fond of Sony either right now. I'm with you on the PC side of things[effing Windows 8 not withstanding], but ruling out Nintendo[WiiU rocks IMHO] and Sony's PS4 would be shear folly.

Microsoft started going too far when they started the "Activation" nonsense. And it's just been downhill since then. But then we are talking about a company who's left hand very often doesn't know where it's right is, let alone what it's doing. On that note, I say this. Ballmer is nit-wit that needs to be removed. Get rid of Ballmer and replace him with a someone who understands things a little better[IE has a decent grip on common sense and reality], can confidently stand up to shareholders and things might turn around for MS.... Maybe....

RE: Good
By djkrypplephite on 2/9/2013 10:36:40 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure it was Sony that patented the idea to mark discs so they couldn't be used on other consoles. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something similar too, just to be fair.

RE: Good
By crispbp04 on 2/12/2013 1:12:20 PM , Rating: 2
this is still listed under speculation; wouldn't you agree?

"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes

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