Print 113 comment(s) - last by johnsmith9875.. on Feb 4 at 9:30 PM

Windows 8 Pro and Microsoft's pre-installed apps take a big bite out of available storage

This isn't the first time that we've heard about space constraints in Microsoft's Surface tablets, and this likely won't be the last. Back in early November, we briefly touched on the fact that Surface RT has its available storage space seriously encroached by the operating system and pre-installed software. The 32GB version only has 16GB available to the user, while the 64GB version has 45GB available to the user.
For comparison, the 32GB and 64GB iPad/iPad mini have roughly 28.6GB and 57.2GB available respectively to the user.
We are now hearing reports that the upcoming Surface Pro takes an even bigger hit due to Windows 8 Pro and pre-installed apps from Microsoft. According to Hexus and Softpedia, the 128GB Surface Pro will only have 83GB of space available to the user. So the user is losing 45GB of storage space due to formatting/OS/pre-installed apps.
That's a big chunk of space robbed from the user on the 128GB version, but users who are thinking about the 64GB Surface Pro might want to think twice if it too is going to get hit with a 45GB punch to the gut. However, it should be noted that both the Surface RT and Surface Pro do features expandable storage via an SDXC slot; and the Surface Pro also features a USB 3.0 port.
For a refresher, the Surface Pro will be available in the U.S. and Canada starting on February 9 at $899 and $999 for the 64GB and 128GB models respectively.

Updated 1/29/2013 @ 2:16pm EST
The Verge reports that the 64GB Surface Pro will only have 23GB of available free space fresh out of the box. Microsoft also states that you will be able to get some of that free space back by "creating a backup bootable USB and deleting the recovery partition."

Sources: Hexus, Softpedia, Microsoft

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RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/2013 9:21:23 AM , Rating: 3
Best Buy had a two-day sale on the 11.6" MacBook Air (64GB) for $799 last week. I'd be more inclined to get that 2.3-pound ultraportable than an $899 tablet.

RE: wow
By tng on 1/29/2013 10:04:31 AM , Rating: 3
I got a 13" Toshiba for less than that, 3 pounds, 500GB drive.

For about the SALE price of that MacBook I could have gotten a 128GB SSD on mine.

I just don't see the value in the MacBook line when there are better things out there...

RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 10:17:22 AM , Rating: 2
And the only reason why I even mentioned the 11.6" MBA was its size/weight relative to the Surface Pro (10.6", 2 pounds).

How does a Mac compare to a Windows device? You should really be looking at a ZenBook UX21A if you want a decent comparison.

RE: wow
By GulWestfale on 1/29/2013 10:52:53 AM , Rating: 4
we're not really comparing OSes here; it's more of a usefulness/bang for your buck thing. give me one reason why one should get a $899 10 inch screen with a mediocre keyboard, when you can have a bigger screen, roughly the same size/weight, and a great keyboard for less money.

RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 11:44:00 AM , Rating: 5
we're not really comparing OSes here; it's more of a usefulness/bang for your buck thing.

Actually we are since the fact that it is a Mac makes it useless for the majority of people. The people who are looking at a Surface Pro are the same people who wouldn't buy a Surface RT because there isn't backwards compatibility with the software they use.

Also even though the ASUS would be a better comparison equivalent to the weight and size of the Macbook Air with more memory and ability to use Windows Applications, it still lacks a touch screen and ability to watch videos without the keyboard in the way. Tablet is definitely a great form factor for watching videos while on an airplane, reading books at night, or for me having it on a music stand to read sheet music from.

Other than when I'm at work, I rarely use a keyboard and if I needed a keyboard to type a book I could pull out a BT one or use a wired one or just use my desktop that I have setup for that purpose.

Does a Surface Pro meet everyone's needs? No
Is a Surface Pro useful for some people? Yes
Is the Surface Pro overpriced? Depends on your needs
Are there other options? Yes
Do those other options meet everyone's needs? No

If you need a tablet, but you also need to use legacy software then a Windows 8 tablet is the only choice. If you need a keyboard and you type a lot then look elsewhere.

RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:26:56 PM , Rating: 2
Uhh, isn't it obvious? You buy Surface so that you can use it like a $500 tablet as well.

Yeah, it's 0.5lbs heavier, and has shorter battery life, but it also has a stylus and faster performance. For many that's a worthwhile tradeoff when you add in the tablet savings.

If you don't care about that, then obviously you're not in its target audience.

RE: wow
By NellyFromMA on 1/30/2013 12:42:24 PM , Rating: 1
Only you are saying its mediocre. Everyone else says its great. Are you going hands-on or citing something else?

I'm interested to hear negative reports on the keyboard because thats the complete opposite of what I've read so far from virtually everywhere for the RT.

It's the same keyboard reportedly.

RE: wow
By CZroe on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 11:56:10 AM , Rating: 3
Yeah the schools near me purchased all Macbooks and Bootcamped all of them, so instead of getting 200 laptops for the students they were only able to get 100 laptops and then had to pay someone to bootcamp them for the schools.

What you can do and what you should do are always competing for our wallets. The Asus Zenbook UX21A actually has more memory than the MacBook Air for less with the difference being .02kgs or .044lbs. However my choice would be the 4.5lb M11x r3 if they were still available and I was looking for a portable gaming rig.

However if I was looking for a tablet that I could strap onto the handlebars and play Diablo III while riding, then I guess I will have to go with the Surface Pro.

RE: wow
By messele on 1/30/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:18:57 PM , Rating: 4
If you think a 3-lb ultrabook is an unfair comparison to a 2.3-lb Macbook Air, then shouldn't you also mention display?

How does 1920x1080 compare to 1366x768?

That's also ignoring the stylus, touchscreen, tablet ability, memory card expansion...

RE: wow
By tng on 1/30/2013 8:31:42 AM , Rating: 1
Display means very little to me. As long as I can read the documents, look at the drawings and use it for my business purposes, that is what I care about. I have never watched a movie on it (it has an HDMI port) and I probably never will.

Resolution for most uses is over-rated, IMO.

The only thing about the display that I wanted was the it was LED backlit, for the battery life.

RE: wow
By tng on 1/29/2013 11:02:14 AM , Rating: 2
It is comparable to the MacBook for the price point. A 13" MacBook would be more...

As to your other points, I have found that the thinner profile of my computer has in no way made my work easier, in fact sometimes it has been a pain adapting to how thin it is. Plugging in USB drives/cables, network cables is not as easy.

Also it is not plastic, it has an aluminum case and is very solid. After seeing the raw aluminum that MacBooks use, they get to a point where they look like crap, I am happy that this is a different finish.

Lastly, since I travel allot, yeah 2.3 pounds sounds good.

RE: wow
By headbox on 1/30/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By tng on 1/30/2013 8:40:37 AM , Rating: 1
In two years...The Toshiba will be worth 20%

I have no need to go through the constant upgrade cycle that some people do. My last laptop ran for 6 years and the new one will probably be in use for as long.

Like most people who use computers for their work and not status symbols at Starbucks, I neither care or worry about selling my old laptop on E-bay so I can go out and get the latest and greatest.

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 9:25:01 AM , Rating: 2
Pretty much. I generally sell my PC parts at around two years while I hold onto my Mac stuff for three to five years. Their gear is nicer for much longer since their components (keyboard, trackpad, display) are generally better, and as a result I always get a good price for it. Often times it pays for much of my upgrade. My PC gear, not so much, its mainly to keep stuff out of my closet. That initial investment is like buying a new car, most of the initial investment goes away very quickly.

About the only non-Apple thing I sold near my purchase price was one of my Filco mechanical keyboards, and that's because its a frigging Filco. :)

Unfortunately, even good gear like a comparably priced Lenovo has a hard time holding up its value in comparison, and that's mainly because the quality of their hardware is all over the place when you get to the lower end. With Macs you're going to get a good baseline level of quality with everything they make, even the 11" MBA, thus helping with resale.

RE: wow
By othercents on 1/29/2013 10:14:07 AM , Rating: 2
I use my tablet 98% of the time and only use the laptop the other 2% of the time that I can't get something to work on the tablet. If I had a tablet that can do everything, then I won't need to use the laptop. The tablet is a much more convenient device than the laptop.

However because I use the tablet for almost everything I don't purchase games I know that won't work on the tablet. So instead of having new titles like Diabo III, I just make due with what is available. I would say 20% of what I use to do on the laptop I just don't do anymore since I can't do it on the tablet.

Hopefully everything converges and we have tablets that can perform just as good as laptops at the same price point without sacrificing battery life and weight, but we are a long ways away. At this point power users won't be able to move to tablets like the average user can.

RE: wow
By Visual on 1/30/2013 3:53:09 AM , Rating: 2
I'm playing Diablo 3 on my tablet (convertible, HP tm2). Surface Pro will run it smoothly too. But I do have to use the keyboard for it.

RE: wow
By Mint on 1/29/2013 2:21:57 PM , Rating: 2
I think Samsung's Series 9 for $700 (sold out now) was even better, though that did have SB instead of IVB.

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/2013 4:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
Meh, the "I don't use one, so it must be useless" argument is getting old ;)

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/2013 5:42:46 PM , Rating: 1
1. No edit feature, so excuse me typing the wrong brand.

2. It's not cheap or plastic. That Toshiba is brushed aluminum. Other people besides Apple use aluminum you know?

It was just the first laptop to pop into my head

Yeah, exactly. Admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing it. The MacBookAir should NEVER be the first thing to pop into your head in ANY kind of comparison where productivity comes into it.

Again, the MBA doesn't come out of the box X86 Windows ready, so it doesn't count here. And please, don't act like this is a "puzzling" view or you don't know what I mean. It's 2013, hello?

RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: -1
RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/2013 6:12:25 PM , Rating: 2
Reclaimer, always entertaining, always **THINKING** he's right :-)

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 6:43:17 PM , Rating: 1
I remember someone brought up preferring Chrome to Firefox one time.

MAN reclaimer got mad about that guy's browser preference, holy crap. Called him names, said he was an idiot Chrome fanboy, you'd think the dude banged his mom or something

RE: wow
By Cheesew1z69 on 1/30/2013 8:22:13 PM , Rating: 2
Reclaimer, always entertaining, always **THINKING** he's right :-)
Like a few others here too...

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 6:11:02 PM , Rating: 1
Best comment I've seen here. I have my foot in pretty much every ecosystem, Android included, and it isn't about "this is the best" or "this is useless", its all about tradeoffs. Everything has positives and negatives. Its all about choosing what you need, but instantly writing off something else without any real knowledge of the platform is ridiculous. I see WAY too many PC (meaning Windows) fanatics writing off OS X and Linux without a second thought, and vice versa.

Having knowledge and proficiency with multiple ecosystems is much better IMHO. You appreciate relative strengths much better and in the end can make an even more informed buying decision for yourself.

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/2013 6:18:10 PM , Rating: 1
Excuse me but I have extensive knowledge on all ecosystems. The simple fact of the matter is that sooner of later, one will win and be the crowned "the best".

Sorry but that sure as shit isn't OS X.

I know everyone thinks they are a special snowflake, but the historic success of Windows and incomprehensibly large user base means it IS the best general purpose desktop OS for 99% of all human beings.

Nice rhetoric the you and Brandon circle jerk have going on here. But facts are facts.

RE: wow
By Brandon Hill on 1/29/2013 6:48:14 PM , Rating: 1
I don't see it as a "X has 75% marketshare, so Y is a piece of *&%$"

If that were the case, the Toyota Camry would be the greatest damn midsize family sedan on the U.S. market because it's the best-selling model.

But not everyone wants a Camry, and a Camry doesn't fit everyone's needs. Some people might prefer a Mazda 6, or a Nissan Altima, or a VW Passat, or a Ford Fusion. They all will get the job done, and all are credible family sedans, but each just goes their own separate way.

Each will have their niche, and neither is going to run the others off the market, well with maybe the exception of the Mazda 6 at some point if its sales don't improve.

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/2013 6:51:15 PM , Rating: 2

The Camry...

wow, that's just brilliant. Great analogy...

Do me a favor and don't talk to me like I'm 12 goddamn years old? When you want a serious conversation about OS's, I'll be around.

I'm not saying OS X is crap. In a bubble it's fine. In the wild where X86 Windows compatibility rules the day, it's not.

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 6:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
Excuse me but I have extensive knowledge on all ecosystems.

You've argued that OS X has iOS style application installation restrictions, long before the completely optional App Store even launched. Your lack of technical knowledge is demonstrated on an almost daily basis.


Anyway, Windows large userbase is a direct result of it being installed on hardware from as cheap as $200 to as-high-as-you-can-imagine. This is separate from "quality" since its range of use is so broad.

The majority of people using Windows aren't doing content creation, "changing the world", or whatever, they're doing simple tasks like data entry, browsing Facebook, web browsing.

On the flip side, the limiting factor for OS X isn't quality, it is price. If you want good hardware then it'll cost you, and other good PC hardware like a mid or high end Lenovo or a Zenbook Prime will cost you roughly the same. A MBP with a 2880x1800 IPS display and an SSD is about two grand, not bad considering what something like an Elitebook costs.

If we're only accounting for the high end then there's a different picture. Apple makes up for 90% of computers sold over $1000 and 30% of laptop sales in the US. I know that "$1000 Facebook machine" is a popular argument, but in my field (film industry) they are widely used for work. The only reason I started using them eleven years ago (I've used PCs since the late 80s) was for work reasons. My friends at Google are all Mac guys, as are most of my friends in web development (they develop on OS X and run Windows in a VM).

Like it or not, there is something to be said for a Unix based operating system with mainstream application support, especially one that works so well on laptops. I can take or leave Windows or OS X on the desktop, I have no strong preference there, but I think the OS X UI is excellent on laptops. Just because it doesn't make up 90% of the market doesn't mean it is unimportant, and it certainly doesn't make it "not the best".

Its all about tradeoffs, pros and cons. The idea that one platform is "the best" at everything is ludicrous.

That said, I can only conclude that Justin Beiber represents the height of quality for you. After all, he is the most popular singer in the world right now, clearly making him "the best".

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/29/13, Rating: 0
RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/29/2013 7:35:43 PM , Rating: 3

How is OS X a walled garden? You can buy and install applications straight from any developer. You can install applications from third party storefronts like Steam. You can easily run other operating systems in a VM. If you're so inclined you get loads of low-level OS control via the command line.

If everyone was still locked away in the OSX walled garden, I think iMac sales would be quite different.


The Mac App Store uses the exact same walled garden platform as the iOS one Takin, and you know this. What are you trying to pull here? Not just anyone can write apps for OSX and sell them, as is the case with Windows.

And yes, I actually bookmarked this because it made me laugh. Sue me.

You talked about app restrictions in support of your theory that OS X is a walled garden, end of story.

Anyone can write and install applications on OS X. You can directly download them from developer websites, install via digital storefronts like Steam, and you can install them from DVD if you're still living in the stone age. You can even download and install via Unix Terminal command line if you're so inclined, as you can with Linux.

It is the opposite of a walled garden. Again, your lack of even the most basic technical knowledge is astounding.

RE: wow
By NellyFromMA on 1/30/2013 12:50:27 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think I know of a top-tier mainstream OEM for PCs that charges the same as a similar quality Apple rendition.

Apple's hardware isn't really what's top notch, it's that there aren't nearly as many internal peripherals for a Mac as there are for the PC. This means in general less testing needs to be done with OS X vs the hardware platform.

That's not a reason to charge more, for PERCEIVED hardware quality.

What you REALLY pay for is build quality. Expect OEMs to officially be on notice in this regard.

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 2:19:44 PM , Rating: 2
There's nothing even different about Mac hardware anymore. It's the same stuff we use. As far as build quality, well I'll stack my new Lian Li case against anything Apple has out there.

Apple is all smoke and mirrors.

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 6:22:58 PM , Rating: 1
Lian Li doesn't even make good cases, its aluminum but the construction is flimsy as hell. I had a Lian Li for three years, never again since they continue to have the same fundamental issues. Its all overpriced trash.

Corsair and Silverstone are where its at, less expensive than Lian Li but with much better construction, more intelligent internal layout, and superior ventilation without sacrificing low noise.

Its amazing, you fail at knowing Macs or Linux and you can't even get your PC parts correct...

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 6:42:07 PM , Rating: 1
I'm literally HIGH off the irony here.

Someone who will ALWAYS fall back in any argument to the "expensive and profitable is always more better" talking point, who consistently slams Android for making "low end crap".... Who absolutely exalts Apple for high profit margins under the guise of quality. To now pull a 180 and say this FUD.

I had a Lian Li for three years

Did this case have a name or model number? What time period was this?

You know I saw that crap you pulled with making a new account and pretending to not be you just to slam me. And now this?

Its amazing, you fail at knowing Macs or Linux and you can't even get your PC parts correct...


"There is, of course, also the price tag. At $199 the PC-90 is an expensive piece of kit, but at the same time I do find myself having difficulty recommending alternatives. "

Anyway Takin, honestly, fuck off. I can't find anyone else on the planet who's saying Lian Li cases aren't extremely high quality with excellent fit and finish. I've NEVER had a single "issue" such as yours with their cases.

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 7:20:55 PM , Rating: 1
Someone who will ALWAYS fall back in any argument to the "expensive and profitable is always more better" talking point

One-dimensional thinking from you as usual.

More expensive does not always equal better, but they usually coincide. For example, the Kindle Paperwhite is a phenomenal device that is only $120, and the vanilla is only $80. Inexpensive but great. On the other side of the spectrum there is something like the iPhone 5 that has some of the fastest hardware with one of the highest quality displays and best LTE battery life on the market, and it is priced up there with the GS3. Both are priced high, and accordingly so IMHO.

There are also expensive items that earn the name "overpriced", things like Lian Li cases or the Razer Blade laptop. Expensive things aren't always well made, that's a different thing. Cheap things are often not well made, that's usually the case as well.

You know I saw that crap you pulled with making a new account and pretending to not be you just to slam me. And now this?

If someone here made a smurf account it certainly wasn't me. I have better things to do than make extra accounts to post or make votes with. Cute conspiracy theory though.

Back to the case. My Lian Li was the V1100. I thought it was really good at first but over time got annoyed by the standard Lian Li idiosyncrasies as time went on (not as solid as a steel case, prone to rattling if things aren't nailed down tight, poor routing for cables, poor cooling, HD mounting was poorly thought out, etc). By the time I rebuilt in 2009 there were much better alternatives from companies just entering the case market like Corsair and Fractal Design so I happily jumped ship.

I've gotten my hands on the PC-90, and not only does it have many of the same issues as before, it is still overpriced compared to other superior options on the market.

You can get a much better Corsair 600T for less. Spend a few extra bucks and you can get the awesome Corsair 800D or Silverstone Fortress.

Compare the PC 90 with a Corsair that costs $50 less:

Hell, drop $90 and the Corsair is still much better designed:

If you want to go tiny like the PC 90, here's Corsair's $50 200R:

Superior cable routing, better air flow, much more solid construction, easier to work in, all while costing less.

Speaking of the 200R, I checked on Anandtech's review. The Lian Li here is dead last in almost all thermal and noise tests:

Lian Li was cool back in 2005 but there are way better options these days. Lian Li hasn't bothered trying to keep up while still charging a premium.

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 8:05:35 PM , Rating: 1

You know I just used Lian Li as an example? Right? I never said NO other cases were good.

I stand by my statement. There are Lian Li cases that put Apple's to shame. MY ORIGINAL POINT! AESTHETICS!!!!

No more semantics! No more bullshit. No more walls of text!

Seriously you are either super gay for me, or need a life. You just did an entire research project to defeat a point I wasn't even making.

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 8:22:24 PM , Rating: 1
And case noise!? What kind of system builder are you? Who the FUCK actually uses the fans that come with their case?

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/31/2013 5:23:54 PM , Rating: 2
All aluminum isn't as structurally rigid as steel. Doesn't matter if you grommet everything, it'll still rattle more in comparison. Its why aluminum facades combined with steel structure is better.

Angry and stupid

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/31/2013 5:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
Another funny thing, when you came back I all of a sudden started getting downvotes on posts responding to you. Never happened while you were away.

In fact, it is only in posts responding to you.

Why did you make another account to vote on other posts with? Is your life that empty?

RE: wow
By Reclaimer77 on 1/30/2013 8:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
Also you don't seem to understand that, obviously, Lian Li isn't a budget value proposition. Comparing their cases to a freaking $50 one is missing the point.

Lian Li is pretty much the Apple of cases. And the irony of your argument here is amazing.

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/31/2013 5:31:57 PM , Rating: 1
Also you don't seem to understand that, obviously, Lian Li isn't a budget value proposition. Comparing their cases to a freaking $50 one is missing the point.

Lian Li is pretty much the Apple of cases. And the irony of your argument here is amazing.

Reading comprehension.

The point is that there are cases that cost as much as the Lian Li that are constructed and perform much better. There are also cheaper cases that do much better in those regards.

And if we're bringing Apple into the equation, the Mac Pro cases are the best system OEM cases out there. Solid construction, excellent air cooling, silent, easy to swap hard drives.

They require custom motherboards since it is designed to bypass the use of SATA cables, which is the only downside to using them for vanilla builds. If PC makers made a motherboard where hard drives plug directly on the PCB then I'd totally get one.

Either way, Lian Li cases are not good compared to other PC or Apple cases. Sorry.

RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 7:30:48 PM , Rating: 1
Also, way to cherry pick. Full quote from the review:

The performance absolutely matches the price tag, but the materials and overall build quality don't quite line up. At $149 it would be much easier to recommend.


RE: wow
By TakinYourPoints on 1/30/2013 6:36:45 PM , Rating: 1
Build quality is a big thing. Displays, keyboard, trackpad, magsafe, its a really great and functional package. Mid/high end Lenovos (great keyboards) and the Asus Zenbook Prime (great display) are the only other notebooks I'd put in a similar class, and they still fall short with the trackpad. Combine the Mac hardware with an OS that is optimized for limited laptop displays (virtual desktops, five-finger multitouch gestures, superior window management), and there's a lot going for them.

The lack of good build quality in other notebooks is ridiculous. Why are Lenovo and a single Asus line the only other ones that match up? It'd be great if other OEMs stepped it up instead of racing to the bottom. A small part of me believes that Microsoft is betting on touchscreens because they simply gave up on OEMs to put in a good trackpad.

On notice indeed.

RE: wow
By Visual on 1/30/2013 3:55:49 AM , Rating: 3
People buy tablets for the "tablet" bit, duh.
MBA does not have a digitizer or touch screen, so how is it relevant at all?
Why not compare to a portable hair-drier or pocket knife?

"Well, there may be a reason why they call them 'Mac' trucks! Windows machines will not be trucks." -- Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer
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