backtop


Print 86 comment(s) - last by foxalopex.. on Jan 16 at 2:07 PM

The drop in prices are mainly due to the fact that Nissan has moved Leaf production from Japan to Tennessee

Nissan’s Leaf just experienced a dramatic price drop, making it the cheapest five-seater electric vehicle (EV) in the U.S. At the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS), Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn said the price of the base model 2013 Leaf has been cut by $6,400. Last year’s base model went for $35,200, and now, the 2013 Leaf S will sell for $28,800 to start before a $7,500 federal tax credit (and any applicable state credit/rebate) is applied.
 
A couple of other Leaf models have seen a price cut as well. The Leaf SV will drop from last year’s price of $35,200 to $31,820 this year. The Leaf SL is also going from $37,250 last year to $34,840 this year.
 
“With nearly 50,000 Leafs on the road globally, we are the leaders in zero emissions vehicles and our class-leading product just got better,” said Billy Hayes, Global vice president of Leaf sales for Nissan. “From the very outset, Nissan has continuously advanced and refined the affordable zero emissions vehicle ownership experience. Now customers won’t have to pay a premium for owning a green car that’s really fun to drive, and that’s exciting.”


2013 Nissan Leaf

The drop in prices is mainly due to the fact that Nissan has moved Leaf production from Japan to Tennessee. It also has its lithium-ion batteries and motors manufactured there. Nissan announced that it began Leaf production at a new plant in Smyrna, Tennessee last Thursday. It will build the Leaf and gasoline vehicles in this plant, while building batteries at a separate plant next door. The plant is the result of a 2010 U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) loan for $1.4 billion. According to the DOE, Nissan can build up to 150,000 Leafs and 200,000 batteries annually at the Tennessee plants
 
Nissan’s Leaf had a rough time last year as far as sales and performance goes. In July 2012, Leaf owners in Arizona complained that their EVs were losing significant battery capacity in the desert’s high heat. Nissan responded by basically saying that this was normal and promised more open communication with owners of the Leaf EV.
 
Later, Nissan had to admit that it wasn’t going to hit its sales mark for 2012, which was 20,000 Leafs. Nissan only sold 9,819 Leafs for the whole year -- less than half of its goal, and only 1.5 percent higher than the number it sold in 2011.

Source: Nissan



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

By retrospooty on 1/15/2013 7:53:04 AM , Rating: 2
Not that I totally disagree, but the Kia RIO is a really low end car. I have a neighbor with one a couple years old, not too nice. That and electric like this isnt really economical for people that only put 1000 miles a month on it. I beleive the average driver puts between 10 and 12k per year on a car. Electric makes sense of you drive alot more than that, like if you have a long daily commute or if you drive around from site to site all day for your job. I used to live 50 miles from work and put 2500 miles a month on my car until I moved closer. When you get into that range and over, it starts making alot more financial sense.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 8:32:51 AM , Rating: 2
fair enough about the kia. You do get what you pay for. They're so cheap i'm surprised they don't come in a box and require assembly. In all fairness they have upped their game. Cheap got them in the door, but they need quality to keep them around. Especially since they're not an American Company. Congress will say they don't qualify for "to big to fail"

If you look at the link there are other more reputable car makers on the list.

1000 a month is 12K a year. Drivers more recently average between 12-15k. This is because as speed limits have gone up that 30-40 minute commute ring around wherever you work has expanded.

Now if you lived farther away than the average commute, then electric really doesn't make any sense. That kia along with a couple other cars on that list get 40mpg hwy, so if you drive mainly highway then you can drive even farther before you hit that 28k price.

Even if you put your price ceiling at 20K, there are several cars that out gun the leaf and save you more money.

Electrics just aren't viable. They wont be until they can reach near parity with other cars of the same form factor.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 9:29:52 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now if you lived farther away than the average commute, then electric really doesn't make any sense.
Really? So the minority of people that can't get by on 70 miles/day make EVs useless for everyone else? Give me a break.

The Kia Rio does not get 40MPG:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2013_Kia_Ri...
Combined mileage is based on typical US driving patterns, so pretending that highway mileage is all that matters. Use the combined rating.

It's a secondary car. There are tens of millions of secondary cars in the US. It's not for everyone, but it's useful for plenty of people.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 10:07:35 AM , Rating: 3
JTMFC...Again. IF you lived farther away than the average commute then electric really doesn't make sense.

No where did I say it doesn't make sense for everybody. I did say that there are better deals that DO NOT rely on a federal tax credit. Even with the tax credit there are still better deals.

I pulled 40mpg hwy from the article I linked. I calculated based off the city rating the article stated 30mpg so no I didn't use the hwy figure at all. If I used the combined rating my numbers would have been higher.

You framed your post about using it as a secondary car. My reply was within that context.

Is it useable as a secondary car? Sure. Does it make financial sense compared to similar cars out there? Nope. I also don't think leasing is ever a good deal, or buying brand new either but if you are going to do it, the leaf is not the cheapest of options, nor the best options.

You can wish it all you want but EV's day in the sun hasn't arrived yet.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 10:45:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I also don't think leasing is ever a good deal, or buying brand new either but if you are going to do it, the leaf is not the cheapest of options, nor the best options.
Leasing is cheaper than buying and reselling after the same term, because you don't pay the full sales tax and you also protect yourself from excessive depreciation. It's only a bad deal if they stick you with a high interest rates.

If you can't disprove my numbers that show an EV is cheaper over the first 3 years, then you have to show me something radical happens in the next 2 years for an EV to not be worth it after 5 years.

Your problem is that you think all cars are worth the same after five years. That's BS. A 100MPG car is worth a lot more than a 30MPG car. The most reliable Nissan (according to Consumer Reports) will be worth a lot more used than a low end Kia will, because the latter will have higher maintenance costs.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 11:54:35 AM , Rating: 2
What numbers? 200 a month for a leaf? How many years? How much down? Mileage restrictions? Show me a link and I'll find a better deal.

I don't think all cars are worth the same after 5 years. I don't know where you came up with that one.

As far as Nissans reliability rating goes, the leaf is an outlier. That rating applies to their ice vehicles. I know they have dropped there lease prices on the leaf because of the problems they have had with the batteries, and sales have been soft.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 12:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
Find a better deal than this:
http://www.choosenissan.com/los-angeles-area/leaf/
That's previous (more expensive) Leaf, but also with CA's extra subsidy, so let's assume that the new one will have the same price.

$1800 down, $199/mo for 36 months, 12000 miles per year. Let's assume $40/mo for electricity. That's $239 per 1000 miles.

Show me a gas powered car that's a better deal, including gas costs.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 1:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
Ask and yee shall receive!

$99 a month
http://www.smartusa.com/models/pure-coupe/overview...

36mpg combined
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2013_smart_...

That leaves you with $140 for gas.

As of yesterday the avg gas price in the US is 3.303
http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

so $140 divided by 3.303 equals 42.3857 gallons.

Now using the 36 mpg combined rating that allows you to drive 1525.885 miles.

Since you put this at 1000 miles a month gas would only cost you 91.75 and leave you with an extra $48.25 a month.

Oh yeah, also only $999 due at signing unlike the $1800 down for the leaf.

So over the three year lease you save $2538 and you have no range limit!


By Mint on 1/15/2013 2:21:10 PM , Rating: 2
Are you kidding me? The best you can do is to show me a tiny two seater that takes 13 seconds to go from 0-60 as an alternative to the Leaf?

The Leaf:
-seats 3 more people
-has over twice the passenger volume
-has twice the trunk space
-gets to 60mph 5 seconds quicker

The Rio was already a bad comparison. This is beyond stupid.

Try again...


By Manch on 1/15/2013 2:52:30 PM , Rating: 2
Oh so now its about performance no longer the secondary car? Keep moving that goal post moron.

As far as the Rio goes, if you had bothered to look at the link you would have saw all of these:
Toyota Yaris
Chevy Sonic Sedan
Ford Feista Sedan
Kia Soul
Suzuki SX4
Hyundai Accent Sedan
Nissan Versa Sedan

There's even a Goddamn Nissan on there for you that is cheaper to buy than a leaf.

All of those cars:
-seat just as many people
-have unlimited range
-can drive for almost 5 yrs from what they save vs a leaf.
-have comparable acceleration.

No matter how you slice it, the leaf is just does not make economical sense. You can even up spend a little bit and buy a nicer car, and you would still save money compared to a leaf.

If you're hell bent on leasing, fine. There are others that cost the same as your precious leaf. I showed you the cheapest.

You are a fucking Moron.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 4:22:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh so now its about performance no longer the secondary car?
Performance is the least of your problems in your ridiculous suggestion of a Smart Fortwo as a Leaf substitute, but it's still a problem. 9 seconds to 60 is not a race car. It is practical, allows safe passing on the highway, and won't anger the guy behind you. 13 seconds is a major headache for everyday drivability.
quote:
As far as the Rio goes, if you had bothered to look at the link you would have saw all of these:

Not a single car on that list can be leased and fueled for less than $240/mo. If you think so, then prove me wrong.

You will fail.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 5:11:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not a single car on that list can be leased and fueled for less than $240/mo. If you think so, then prove me wrong.


Here you go ya damn moron.

http://www.nissanusa.com/buildyournissan/variant/i...

If you get the manual or the auto it will cost you $129 a month and 110.10 for gas (30mpg combined)for a total of 239.10
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?acti...

So again I prove you wrong.

Still cheaper and with unlimited range!


By Mint on 1/15/2013 5:38:22 PM , Rating: 2
Your link is broken. All I see is all of Nissan's models with their MSRP.

Tell me the details, and make sure it's at least somewhat equally equipped:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/ni...
Power windows, power door locks, remote key, CD/MP3 at the very least, since the majority of cars sold today have these features. (FYI, the base Leaf S also has automatic temperature control, bluetooth handsfree, proximity key, trip computer...)

Don't give me some econobox with zero features like you did with the Rio.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 5:55:50 PM , Rating: 3
go to the site, click on versa 1.6s and check out the lease. Its $129. Go to the epas fuel economy site and check out the mileage.

Make the argument that it doesn't have this it doesn't have that. I don't care. I'll trade power locks for unlimited driving range any day. That's two cars that are cheaper and one of those cars is from that list.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 7:51:18 PM , Rating: 2
94.5% of all new cars have power windows standard:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-02-18/busi...
Don't compare the Leaf to econoboxes lacking features or seats that everyone wants.

Why are you in this thread if you don't care about the economics or the gas saved because of the range? All along you've been talking nonsense, relying on range as a crutch to disparage the Leaf now that you lost the economics argument.

If you can live with the range, then the Leaf is cheaper to lease and operate for the first three years than any other comparable car.

That is my claim, and you failed miserably to disprove it.


By Manch on 1/16/2013 3:25:05 AM , Rating: 2
So now its about powered windows! good lord...YOu said I couldn't find ANY cars. I showed you TWO cars that are cheaper to lease vs the price to lease a leaf in California. Everywhere else its $220 not $199. With that wiggle room I can find a few other cars that are just as economical and probably with power windows.

I also showed you cars that are MORE ECONOMICAL to buy and operate vs purchasing a leaf.

So yeah I did disprove what you said. I proved you do not have to live within the range of a leaf and still find a car that is MORE ECONOMICAL to lease and operate than a leaf.

You're just pissed because I proved you wrong.


By Mint on 1/16/2013 9:08:05 AM , Rating: 2
Go scroll up and READ you illiterate. I said, "You'll be hard pressed to beat that in a comparably performing gas vehicle". I didn't say find ANY box on four wheels. There is nothing comparable about a Smart Fortwo or a base Versa. That you resorted to such barebones cars proves me precisely right, as you are so hard pressed to find a gas competitor that you have to resort to finding cars lacking features that virtually every new car buyer demands.

The $220/mo leases are for the 2012 Leaf, which had a starting MSRP of $35200. This one starts at $28,800. Post-tax rebate, that's a 23% price cut. 23% off of $220 is $169, so my $200/mo estimate is very conservative for this new model. So no, you don't get any wiggle room.

You didn't prove jack.

A base Rio is more economical than a well equipped Corolla. A Smart ForTwo is more economical than a Rio. A motorbike is more economical than a ForTwo. A moped is more economical than a motorbike. What did I prove in this paragraph? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Compare apples to apples, or GTFO. IF you don't need more than 70 miles of daily range, then you compare your options by all other features and price.

You pointed out one option for the <6% of buyers that don't want power windows/locks. You pointed out another option for the <1% that only want two seats. You still haven't given an option for 93% of new car buyers.

That's not pickiness. That's calling you out on your lame suggestions.


By JediJeb on 1/15/2013 3:51:36 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The Leaf:
-seats 3 more people
-has over twice the passenger volume
-has twice the trunk space
-gets to 60mph 5 seconds quicker


I have to call it on this one also because there is one stat left out versus even that Smart.

-drive >100miles, you are walking home.


By nshoe on 1/15/2013 4:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
And for the vast majority of commuters none of those matter.

-seats 3 more people
The average commuter vehicle carries 1.1 people, so unless you are carpooling it won't matter.
-has over twice the passenger volume
Only because it has to accommodate a second row of people. I'm a large 6'1" and fit comfortably in a Smart.
-twice the trunk space
I can fit a good weeks worth of groceries in the trunk, and If I need more space I can always use my other vehicle (The smart would be lousy as a only vehicle, but in most cases so would a Leaf)
-gets to 60mph 5 sec quicker.
Like in rush hour traffic this is an issue? I've never had a problem getting up to speed to merge with freeway traffic. Perhaps with the slow acceleration I get home 1-2 min slower - but then again for my commute I'll get there $40-$60/month richer.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 4:39:57 PM , Rating: 2
If none of that mattered, then Smart would have much higher sales than 7000 in 2012, and there would be many other car makers with cheap two-seaters.

Those are serious drawbacks. Very few people wants them in a car.


By nshoe on 1/15/2013 4:54:38 PM , Rating: 2
And the Leaf had so much better sales at 9800, despite having a huge marketing push.

They are both niche market vehicles. And for many people the Smart would be a cheaper alternative. Many people may not want to deal with the drawbacks of the Smart, but it is rather obvious that many people don't want to deal with the drawbacks of the Leaf as well.

(Also, you did miss one other cost for the Leaf, bought or leased - you still need to buy and have a home charger installed - that car run $700-$1400 depending on how muck electrical work needs to be done to get a 240volt 30amp circuit to where you park your car.)


By Mint on 1/15/2013 5:23:43 PM , Rating: 2
Marketing can't make up for price. The car is now $6000 cheaper. That's what this article is about, if you didn't notice.

Monthly Leaf sales more than tripled at the end of the year when they started offering lower prices, and now it's even lower.

$6000 is a lot of money. It's the difference between a 12 year payback and a 6 year payback.


By Manch on 1/15/2013 5:14:05 PM , Rating: 2
Very few people want only a 73mile range too.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 5:48:24 PM , Rating: 2
Once again, this whole article and discussion is only relevant for people that can live with that range in their second car. If not, you don't care about the price drop. You don't care about how much gas the car cars.

So if that's all you got, then leave the discussion, because you are irrelevant to it and the article is irrelevant to you.


By JediJeb on 1/15/2013 3:58:11 PM , Rating: 2
To me viable EVs will come when you can get at least 200 mile range and prices less than $25k without the subsidy.

One cost no body is listing here is insurance, how much is full coverage insurance for an EV?

As for maintenance, not much more for a fuel efficient ICE car since you really only need to change the oil twice a year or less if driving 12K miles per year($50 annually if you DIY or $150 if you have it done at a Jiffylube) and tires will be the same for both vehicles. Shouldn't need brakes for several years, but if the EV has regenerative braking the brakes will cost much more than those on a standard ICE vehicle.


By RufusM on 1/15/2013 8:36:44 AM , Rating: 3
The Leaf is a niche car right now and only appeals to a certain market that can afford it and accept the tradeoffs.

If electric started taking off, it seems to me that the electrical grid doesn't have a lot of excess capacity to absorb the added demand so the price of electricity would go up. It takes a long time to add more electrical capacity so a surge in demand of electricity would decrease the ROI of the Leaf compared to an ICE vehicle, all things being equal.


By othercents on 1/15/2013 8:51:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If electric started taking off, it seems to me that the electrical grid doesn't have a lot of excess capacity to absorb the added demand so the price of electricity would go up.

I wonder what percent of Leaf owners have solar panels? This would offset the electric demand, however I would hate to be in a state that had nightly brownouts that kept me from charging the vehicle.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 9:20:28 AM , Rating: 2
EVs overwhelmingly recharge at night, where there is plenty of excess capacity. Wind blows more at night as well, and in some places night electricity is free:
https://www.txu.com/residential/promotions/mass/fr...

In every market with smart meters, the electricity used to charge EVs will cost less than the average rate. EVs flatten out the daily demand curve, making electricity generation slightly more efficient and cheaper for everyone.


By Mint on 1/15/2013 10:31:35 AM , Rating: 2
With this Leaf pricing, it actually is worth it even with 1000 miles/mo.

A fair comparison either looks at lifetime costs or the difference between purchase price and resale value. We don't know the resale value, but manufacturers make an educated guess with leases, so that's the fairest comparison we have.

1000 miles/mo in a car getting 35 MPG combined (how many such cars are there?) will need $110/mo in gas. A Leaf will need <$40/mo in electricity (sometimes much less). So if you can lease a Leaf for $200/mo, a reliable gas car would have to be leased for only $130/mo to match the Leaf in running costs (depreciation + fuel).

Can you name any such car? Of course, those rates are assisted by the subsidy, but it really makes sense for a lot of people.


By Samus on 1/15/2013 1:19:41 PM , Rating: 2
The Kia Rio used to be $7000 base. I can't believe that bucket is over 13k now.

Comparing a Nissan to a Kia is like comparing Godzilla to a walnut. That's right. Think about it.


"There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere." -- Isaac Asimov














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki