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Print 122 comment(s) - last by NellyFromMA.. on Jan 7 at 5:03 PM

Beloved icon of Windows history appears to be in the rear view for good

For those upset about the lack of a start button in Windows 8, prepare yourself for another disappointment -- "Windows Blue", an upcoming short-cycle successor to Windows 8, is not expected to bring the feature back.

The source of this supposed leak is CNBeta, a site with close insider ties at Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), which gained respect by accurately leaking a number of early Windows 8 details.

Other info from the site includes suggests that Microsoft will further flatten the UI on the desktop (think the Metro/Windows 8 UI style), the taskbar/desktop will get tweaks, the price will be low (or free), and the new kernel version number will be v6.3 (corroborated by other independent reports).  The final remnants of the Aero UI, which was a staple of Windows Vista and Windows 7 is also being bid adieu, like the Start button before it.

Windows 7 Start Button
The start button went the way of the Dodo with Windows 8. [Image Source: Jason Mick/DailyTech]

Neowin reports that a summer launch of Windows Blue is expected.  And its contacts close to Microsoft hint that the name will be some sort of riff on Windows 8, not Windows 9, as some suspected.

(For the record you can get a Start Menu-like menu by moving your mouse to the lower left corner of the screen and right-clicking.  Voilà, magic!)

Sources: CNBeta, NeoWin



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Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 11:54:05 AM , Rating: 5
Hey, if MS wants to continue to not provide the product people want to buy, then that's their choice.

Although it's highly unlikely, they're probably just pushing people to Macs and Linux. I say "unlikely" because what's going to happen is people just continuing to use Win7. That's what's actually going to happen - at least until such time as MS pulls it's head out of it's a$$ and gives up on the useless-on-a-PC tile interface.




RE: Free market
By retrospooty on 12/28/2012 12:07:33 PM , Rating: 5
"Hey, if MS wants to continue to not provide the product people want to buy, then that's their choice."

Good point. 7 Works brilliantly and 8 just isn't looking like anything I'd like to upgrade to.


RE: Free market
By PrinceGaz on 12/28/2012 3:56:55 PM , Rating: 4
You can't just keep on using an old OS that has long since received any upgrades though, just because you didn't like the replacement. That would be like someone today still using Windows XP! Utter madness!

Posted on a PC running Windows XP because I tried Vista and decided "no", Win7 (64-bit) looked better but only for when I replace this PC with one that has more than 2GB RAM, and Win8 is a non-starter unless I also buy some sort of new desktop touch-screen display. I haven't seen many of those on sale.


RE: Free market
By retrospooty on 12/28/2012 4:00:19 PM , Rating: 5
LOL... Yup, still alot of people on XP.

I dunno though. I don't hate Win8, in fact the UI is fantastic for a touch screen, its just to force a touch screen UI on non- touch screen devices like Desktops and most laptops is ludicrous.


RE: Free market
By althaz on 12/29/2012 12:11:08 AM , Rating: 2
Most of the metro stuff actually works pretty brilliantly on desktop, the issue is, I think (and you mention it) is the laptop. Metro doesn't work without either touch or a real mouse, IMO. Possibly newer laptops with more gesture support on their trackpads will improve things, but probably not enough.


RE: Free market
By HostileEffect on 12/28/2012 5:56:06 PM , Rating: 3
Some of my older computers still use XP. Just use Firefox with all the goodies and proper AV...


RE: Free market
By danielravennest on 1/1/2013 1:27:34 PM , Rating: 2
I just upgraded my older PC from XP to 8 Pro x64. The main reason was to enable more than 4GB memory, and after using the following instructions, I don't have to see the Start screen much:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/window-on-windows...

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/window-on-windows...


RE: Free market
By cyberguyz on 12/30/2012 3:09:47 PM , Rating: 5
Actually, I can. And when that becomes unworkable I can still refuse to run an operating system I don't want to use.

Microsoft just doesn't seem to get that.

Win 7/64 bit is working fine for me and will continue to do so for the next 5 years.

Tried Win 8 Pro. Gave it a couple months & some third party add-ons (to get my start button back) and absolutely hated what Microsoft did to it. Removed it from my system and the dvd sits in the corner with the rest of my junk software.

If the next Windows is going to be more of the same, you will see me moving to another platform. For me Win 8 failed miserably.


RE: Free market
By drlumen on 12/31/2012 12:52:16 PM , Rating: 1
The investment cost for past software is the ONLY reason I'm still using windows at all. If it gets to the point that I can't use my software with an acceptable OS then that will be the final kick in the pants to move to Linux.


RE: Free market
By acer905 on 12/28/12, Rating: 0
RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 12:18:15 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
They changed the UI once before... People were angry, but adapted.


No they haven't...not really. The UI is essentially the same as it's been since Win95 - just a few tweaks here and there, but effectively the same thing. The reason being that the Start menu is the optimal form. The tile thing is a massive step in the wrong direction.

quote:
They changed the Office UI... People were angry, but adapted.


That one got shoved down people's throats because of corporate MS Office contracts. At the software companies I've worked at since then, pretty much everyone admits that the Fisher-Price-sized toolbars called "ribbons" do nothing but make it harder to find the functions you want to use by showing fewer of them at any given time. It's just physics. Bigger buttons means fewer of them on the screen. But...people have to use them because they have no choice.

The same may ultimately become true with the tiled OS interface...but all MS is doing if they continue with it is to irritate people more and more. Which, if it continues, will drive people (and maybe companies) away from MS to other, more user-friendly and productive platforms and products.


RE: Free market
By acer905 on 12/28/12, Rating: -1
RE: Free market
By Griffinhart on 12/28/2012 1:35:38 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Thats the point. Pre-Win95 the UI was entirely different, and it worked well. Then they changed it, and people were angry.


This isn't actually true. While Windows 3.1 was entirely different, Win95 was clearly an improvement and was enthusiastically embraced by both consumers and businesses. I know in the company I was working at during its release it brought massive advanages for us.

This was also a time when Norton Desktop for Windows was getting more and more popular. For those not familiar, it modified Win 3.1 to give it a windows 95 style desktop minus a task bar.


RE: Free market
By Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer on 12/28/2012 2:50:52 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, it's been a while, but I seem to remember Windows 95 being an improvement over 3.1, myself.


RE: Free market
By Labotomizer on 12/29/2012 9:30:14 PM , Rating: 2
It's easy to let 18 years cloud your memories because it's hard to imagine thinking 3.1 was better than 9x. But there were numerous people who swore they would never leave DOS. Those people didn't like 3.1 either. Eventually they adapted.

People hated Windows XP at launch more than the backlash for Windows 8, and there were more problems with XP than you could count. Security, stability were both trash. Again, 10+ years does funny things to people's memories. Everyone I knew swore they would stay with 98 if they played games, 2000 if they were business related. Or 98. But we see how that worked out.

I'm not saying I agree with MS, but I also don't think the lack of a start button is a big deal. Again, 7 year old daughter has had 0 issues finding her way around Windows 8, without my help. That speaks volumes. I know it's hard to break old habits, but there are some advantages. Especially as we move forward with more devices. I do like that I change my background and lock screen at work, it's updated at home. I sync photos from phone and it instantly shows up on 3 Win 8 devices I have. All traditional computers and a laptop. And the laptop supports multi-touch on the trackpad, so it works great with Win 8.


RE: Free market
By piroroadkill on 12/30/2012 6:22:08 AM , Rating: 3
One thing that is useful to note about the Windows 3.11 transition to Windows 95, is that the original 95 release actually would ASK YOU what UI you wanted, and if you chose 3.11 style, it would start progman.exe in place of explorer.exe.

Even if you wanted Windows 95 style, you could still start progman and go back to using literally the same old UI you had been used to.

I think Program Manager was included even in XP, but removed at some point during a service pack update, maybe it was SP2.

Point is, Microsoft used to be about choice. Now they've decided choice is the enemy of a slick walled garden, and they'd be right. But it represents a new and very recent shift in ideology, and is in no way comparable to old UI tweaks of the past.


RE: Free market
By BifurcatedBoat on 1/3/2013 3:51:02 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I never had a problem with upgrading an OS until now. Vista annoyed me greatly when I first installed it until I disabled UAC, but even in that case, it was worth it to get access to more than 3.5GB of RAM.

They made meaningful improvements with each release. Now, they take a step backward for the sake of tablets and phones. You can't tell me it's not a step backward. There is no way, in a world that didn't have tablets and smartphones, that we would have ended up with this kind of interface for desktop PC use.


RE: Free market
By AskTheChief on 12/28/2012 3:18:18 PM , Rating: 1
I agree completely. I've read so many articles where people are "Power Users" yet they think it is OK. Bull!

Try turning off UAC in Win 8 compared to Win 7
In Win 7 go to start run and type UAC.
The same applies with Launching RDP, Command prompt, Anytime upgrade, browsing directories, and the list goes on. I want my start menu back, I can organize it the way I want and shutdown in 2 clicks.

I would have rated Motoman up, but I wanted to comment on his post. I loved it, especially "pretty much everyone admits that the Fisher-Price-sized toolbars called "ribbons" do nothing but make it harder to find the functions you want to use by showing fewer of them at any given time."

You hit it on the head. Hey Microsoft, get a clue... everything is going widescreen, so my 8.5 X 11 doc is getting shorter because of the widescreen format being shoved down our throats. And then you take away even more vertical space by using the top for the silly ribbon that you cannot move to the side. I could live with the ribbon if you put it on the side, other wise give me a nice simple file menu bar like in 2003, or GIVE me the choice to pick which one I want to use.

This moving crap around that MS is doing is really tempting me to look elsewhere.

Back to the Win 8 roast. Shutting down is a few extra steps and getting to admin tools requires placing all the admin tools on the metro desktop or a lot of digging through the metro and hovering to wait for the search to show up. OK, now how about shutting down some of the apps that you open. When the app is mogul, you have to use the Windows key to get out of it, then move to the top left and hover until you see the mini window appear then right click and close. This kind of behavior encourages us to leave apps open all the time. What happened to the X in the top right hand corner? How is this faster and better? A little clue here... it is not, it is 3 or 4 steps in the wrong direction.

And guess what, I'm one of the guys all my family and friends ask for advice from before they buy anything new.

So my advise to friends for Windows 8 for a tablet is pretty good from all the sites I normally read. My personal experience with Windows 8 on the desktop is not so hot. I am really disappointed and I am telling people to stick with Windows 7 or wait for MS to either patch Windows 8 to make it as good as 7 or wait for the next OS.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 3:29:03 PM , Rating: 2
Rule of thumb: Anyone who declares themselves to be a "power user" isn't.


RE: Free market
By damianrobertjones on 12/28/12, Rating: 0
RE: Free market
By B3an on 12/28/2012 4:06:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Try turning off UAC in Win 8 compared to Win 7 In Win 7 go to start run and type UAC. The same applies with Launching RDP, Command prompt, Anytime upgrade, browsing directories, and the list goes on. I want my start menu back, I can organize it the way I want and shutdown in 2 clicks.


Access Command Prompt on 8:

Right click in the bottom left corner of the screen > Command Prompt. TWO CLICKS! Quicker than Win 7!
Or Press WinKey + X > Command Prompt.
Or Start Screen > type "CMD" ... same thing as Win 7!

You can even use the new Ribbon in File Explorer to open Command Prompt in the directory you're in:
File > Command Prompt.

UAC on Win 8:

Start Screen > Type "UAC" > settings > and it's there.
Or again, right click in bottom left corner > Control Panel > type "UAC"

Remote Desktop:

Start Screen > type "remote" press Enter.

Browsing directories on 8:

Click on File Explorer. Its pinned to the taskbar. ONE CLICK!!

People like are simply THICK. Absolute idiots. I hope people like continue to post this **** so i can continue to point out how stupid and CLEARLY WRONG you are.

If you took 5 MINUTES to learn new stuff you'll see that this is all just as fast or sometimes quicker.


RE: Free market
By nikon133 on 12/28/2012 5:12:16 PM , Rating: 3
This. And previous post, too.

Thank you for posting, sirs, so I don't have to.

I have upgraded my work PC to 8 in early September, and my home laptop recently. I have almost completely stopped using tablet since, as my laptop (with SSD) boots in around 15 seconds (10 of which is pre-boot part) so now, for acceptable wait, I get full functionality without thinking about battery drain in sleep mode.

Right-click on lower right corner has all admin tools nicely grouped, including command prompt and command prompt (admin), task manager, device manager, control panel. Brilliant. I'd recommend everyone not aware of it to try.

Yes old school demands system shut-down to be initiated from the GUI, but at this moment of time, I am shutting (or putting to sleep) my tablet, smartphone, digital camera by pressing power button... so I'm finding it natural to do the same with my laptop. Alternatively, CTRL+ALT+DEL brings screen with power options exposed in lower right corner.

My laptop is ThinkPad T410, so no touch screen. However, I've updated all drivers to Win 8 drivers (where available) and laptop's touchpad has got some swiping functionality (swipe from right for charms etc) and it works fine.

I think majority of most vocal opponents to Win 8 haven't really tried to used it. Maybe haven't even played with it for more than 60 seconds, literally. Give it an open-minded go, guys. It is good.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 5:36:34 PM , Rating: 4
LOL!

You might want to talk to Newegg - which just send me an email with this in it, selling Windows 7 described thusly:

quote:
If you still haven't experienced the defining UI experience that is Windows 7, now is the time to try it out yourself. Windows 7 is frequently touted by users as the smoothest, most user-friendly Windows operating system thus far. Experience timeless Windows standards like the all-encompassing Window's Search, Taskbar, full 64-bit support and now with enhanced responsiveness, less drag on memory, faster sleeps and resumes, as well as a much wider range of customization options to make YOUR Windows look and feel uniquely your own.


And the tagline:
quote:
Windows 7 - Definitively User-Intuitive


Not even Newegg wants to push Windows 8!

You trolls are all so lost it's not even funny. Win8 is a trainwreck on anything but a touchscreen device.s Search, Taskbar, full 64-bit support and now with enhanced responsiveness, less drag on memory, faster sleeps and resumes, as well as a much wider range of customization options to make YOUR Windows look and feel uniquely your own.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/12, Rating: -1
RE: Free market
By nikon133 on 12/28/2012 10:06:28 PM , Rating: 1
Well, fools are always first to laugh at things they don't really comprehend.

Newegg, Best Buy, BuyMore and likes are hardly my preferred source of reliable info about anything. Firstly, they are more often than not clueless. Secondly, they will advertise what they have in stock (and trying to get rid off). I have developed strange habit to believe reviews here at Anandtech a bit more.

Appleinsider is also keen of making fun of Windows 8, but then again they were keen on trying to make fun on every other Windows previously.

All that being said... I'm not saying Windows 7 has suddenly turned sour. It is as good as it ever was, and my gaming desktop still runs Win 7 Ultimate. I don't hate it because 8 is out, I like it as much as I ever have - it's only that I like 8 a bit more.

Regarding your need to laugh at people with different opinion. That's really sad, mate. Your life must be very sad if you cannot find better things to make you laugh.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/29/2012 9:29:12 AM , Rating: 5
Stupid should hurt. And the simple fact is that putting a tablet OS on a desktop/laptop is a stupid idea.

What's foolish is just believing that everything "new" is automatically better than everything "old."

Go invent a square tire and see how that works for you...mate. I'll be here...laughing at you.


RE: Free market
By wordsworm on 12/29/12, Rating: -1
RE: Free market
By nikon133 on 12/31/2012 2:51:23 AM , Rating: 2
I have no doubts you will be sitting here and laughing either way, mate.

Happy New Year from NZ, everyone.


RE: Free market
By Donkey2008 on 12/29/2012 3:43:12 AM , Rating: 5
At my location we have hundreds of T410, T420, T430, W500, W510 and W520 laptops. We installed Win8 Enterprise for 3 dozen users and the response was so negative that every single one of those users wanted Win7 back.

When informed that their systems would integrate with new Microsoft surface tablets, the most common answers were "what is Surface?" followed by "Will it integrate with the iPad?".

Sorry all of you fanbois, but Microsoft failed at both the overall design of Windows 8 and marketing Windows 8 to the masses. They can force it on OEMs to sell it, but it will do nothing but drive more customers to keep Windows 7 or even defect to Mac or Linux.


RE: Free market
By TakinYourPoints on 12/30/2012 5:51:10 AM , Rating: 2
Valve hedging their bets with porting Steam and their games to Linux was prescient, and other big companies like Blizzard are now also considering it as a hedge.

Games are literally the only thing I have Windows for right now. My work desktop runs OS X, my phone and tablet run iOS, and my Kindle runs whatever custom Linux install my Kindle runs. If Microsoft keeps screwing up and some Linux desktop catches up with Windows 7 while game developers continue pushing to make Linux work (and right now Source games run better on Linux than they do Windows 7), then what's to say that a few more people won't change over?

At best Microsoft will be keeping their Windows 7 customers, and that's money I gave them way back in 2009.

Interesting thing: right now the number of Windows 8 installs on Steam's statistics page is lower than the number of Windows Vista installs. I know its only been a few weeks, but oof.


RE: Free market
By thecolorblue on 12/28/2012 8:14:02 PM , Rating: 2
will the Microsoft $hills get lost already... nobody but you guys want the piece of crap known formerly as Metro.


RE: Free market
By AskTheChief on 12/28/2012 10:17:01 PM , Rating: 3
Ah but you are forgetting your first click in the metro to get you to the desktop. Yes, you can do some of those tasks that way if you move the mouse quickly into the corner and hope the menu pops up, verses it being there and you can click and go.

Command prompt is available, remote is not RDP it is called by typing mstsc, UAC is not available via the run line either. However; if you go to the control panel you can enter it into the search and pull it up.

But again I am frustrated by how buggy it is to access that menu, move to it too fast or too slow and it won't pop up.

OK, browsing directories, yes the folder is on the task bar at the bottom just like Window 7 (Did you forget?), but it is only good for one window, so its not so good when you have multiple paths to search through and you may need to compare directories. But you could put a short cut to my computer on the desktop and access it that way, but then I'm adding more to my desktop

OK how do you close a window, with your mouse once it is mogul?
ALT F4 works fine, but I typically close with the mouse. Oh lets do it the new improved way. Go to the top of the screen and drag it down, and if you don't drag it far enough you won't close it. Yeah, this is not better than good ole click on the X.

Oh and lets multitask. I want to have weather open and sized to a small window. Not going to happen. Some apps just can't be re-sized. This looks like MS is going for tablet mode and not considering the desktop. Where have I seen this before on the desktop. Hmmm ... Windows 1.0 maybe?

OK, now lets power down, to do this we must exit the desktop to metro, hover to bring up the charms, click settings, click power, click shut down.

So window key, hover, click, click, and then click to power down. Nice, well played.

Not a thing you said could be done faster in Windows 8 because you have to get a menu to pop up via a hover, move to the corner wrong and the menu won't pop, once you do get it to pop you can then right click verses click and go.


RE: Free market
By Piiman on 12/29/2012 11:35:18 AM , Rating: 2
I like how they act like being able to run 2 whole apps is great. Yeah one app in a 3 inch strip and the other taking up the rest of the screen AMAZING!!!


RE: Free market
By damianrobertjones on 12/28/2012 3:38:52 PM , Rating: 2
Then DAMN WELL modify the ribbon to feature the tools that YOU need.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 3:45:49 PM , Rating: 2
Can I modify it to use icons a quarter of the size they are now, which is all they need to be? Can I modify them to allow multiple such things to be open on the UI at the same time?

No? Well then...guess it's still a POS.


RE: Free market
By InsGadget on 12/29/2012 2:52:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Which, if it continues, will drive people (and maybe companies) away from MS to other, more user-friendly and productive platforms and products.


Ok, go. Find this panacea of awesome software that always makes you happy.


RE: Free market
By Donkey2008 on 12/29/2012 3:54:18 AM , Rating: 3
His point is that the classic Windows GUI works fine and there was no need to radically change it to suit the needs of tablet users. Microsoft could have first concentrated on making a good tablet OS, then integrating it with Windows over time. Instead, they chose to do everything at once. We get a half-baked tablet OS attached to a half-baked desktop OS.

By the way, I do not remember Apple having to make one OS for every device they sell. They were smart enough to see that tablet and desktop users are two different types of users. Then again, Apple is the richest company on earth, so what the hell do they know about giving customers what they want.


RE: Free market
By crispbp04 on 12/29/12, Rating: -1
RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/29/2012 2:24:16 PM , Rating: 5
You're entitled to your opinion. Just remember that you're wrong.

The tiles are a nightmare on a real computer. Infinitely less useful than a normal desktop, whatever widgets you want, and a Start menu. Unless, like yourself, you only use Facebook and Hotmail. In which case...enjoy your Fisher-Price "komputer."


RE: Free market
By name99 on 12/28/2012 2:29:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They changed the UI once before... People were angry, but adapted.


Uhh --- then why is half the Windows user base still XP?
What I see is that people were angry (justified or not) about Vista, and at that point got off the Windows upgrade path, basically forever.


RE: Free market
By 0ldman on 12/28/2012 4:22:37 PM , Rating: 2
Most of my entertainment PCs are Windows 7. My workstations all run XP Pro with the exception of a backup/test unit.

Games, videos, etc, work better on 7. XP is faster for a network admin. I don't have too many issues swapping between multiple networks or programming different devices on XP, occasional snag. With 7 (which I hate to say, btw) seems to require a reboot after about the third time I swap IP addresses or devices I'm working on.

I don't get paid by the hour. Every second wasted on the new Windows networking costs me.


RE: Free market
By name99 on 12/28/2012 4:45:18 PM , Rating: 1
And all my computers are Macs. So by your logic OSX is a much more common than Windows...

The point is not what YOU think, the point is what the world does.
Do you deny my point --- that XP is STILL (after ten years) at almost half the market? (Actually 40%)

As a point of comparison, OSX has 2.5% using 10.4 (2005)
13% using 10.5 (late 2007)
43% using 10.6 (mid 2009)
49% using 10.7/10.8 (I group these together because the only numbers I could find were about a week after 10.8 was released).

Presumably Apple would prefer that these be even better (and on iOS they ARE much better) but one problem Apple has is that this period covers the PPC transition (all the PPC users are stuck at 10.5) and the x86-64 transition (all the Yonah based Macs, using a 32-bit Intel chip, are stuck at 10.6).

There is probably some of this hardware ratchet in Windowsland, with XP boxes unable to handle the GPU demands of Vista, but I've never seen the ongoing nostalgia in OSX-land for older versions. What happens with OSX is an initial period of whining, followed three months later by a realization that the changes are not so bad, that actually they're mostly for the better. With Windows, on the other hand, you don't seem to get that change, after three months, with MOST users concluding that the changes are for the better.


RE: Free market
By TakinYourPoints on 12/28/2012 6:19:18 PM , Rating: 2
I think the higher adoption rate for OS X comes down to two things. One is that upgrades are more invisible and less painful. The Home folder is retained and untouched while upgrades are now made OTA. Easy and painless. Another more important thing is that the smaller Mac market falls to consumers and more higher tech businesses (media, web, research, etc). Those groups are more likely to keep their technology up to date.

It isn't like the vast majority of businesses that buy a cheap point-of-sale station or data entry econobox running Windows, those will stay without upgrades until the hardware kicks the bucket. It is no wonder why the XP market remains so huge, it is a pointless expense to keep such basic hardware made for office work up to the latest technology.

All that matters is that its cheap and that it works, and anything that gets in the way of it working (ie - unexpected incompatibility or training on new tech) is a bad thing. IT guys just want it to work and their bosses don't want to spend money.


RE: Free market
By menting on 12/28/2012 5:29:10 PM , Rating: 2
because if it works good enough, why upgrade?
It doesn't say Windows 8 is bad, all it says is Windows XP is good.


RE: Free market
By TakinYourPoints on 12/28/2012 6:10:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Uhh --- then why is half the Windows user base still XP?


A large portion of the Windows userbase isn't consumers, it is businesses, things like point-of-sale stations, data entry, call centers, etc etc. Those will stick with what they have for as long as possible. The cost of upgrading tens of thousands of computers that they've had for the last eight years from XP to 7 or 8 is tremendous.

Most companies are slow to upgrade anything, and computers fall under that category. Honestly, upgrades generally don't happen in large numbers until hardware actually starts failing and they are forced to get the newest version of Windows because that is what their Dell or HP econoboxes come with.

Look at it this way, that insecure, non-standards compliant, dog-slow web browser IE6 still has a surprisingly large number of users in business because of some applications that only work with it.

Lots of old tech isn't held because it is better. Vista was actually far superior to XP after patches and drivers caught up several months later. No, it is held because it is "good enough" and the physical and training costs are too high for most to justify.

A rocky start with something like Vista or 8 is certainly less incentive though.


RE: Free market
By InsGadget on 12/29/2012 2:57:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
why is half the Windows user base still XP?

Inertia. And besides, more Windows users are on Win7 (45%) than XP (40%). This is as of November 2012.


RE: Free market
By Mike Acker on 12/30/2012 7:57:04 AM , Rating: 2
each hit weakens their position

Linux/Ubuntu is already a viable alternative . and mfr are starting to offer Linux/Ubuntu pre-loaded

on top of which Linux is built on a better foundation . with hackers having a field day this becomes a #1 concern for business activity


RE: Free market
By delphinus100 on 1/1/2013 1:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
Never assume that the ability or willingness to adapt is infinite.

We all have our own 'last straw...'


RE: Free market
By BifurcatedBoat on 1/3/2013 3:46:17 PM , Rating: 2
That's what MS has been assuming, but you know what happens when you assume.

I know they're not all retarded, and people's reaction to the changes they made had to be at least in large part expected. They've been working on this thing for years. They knew what they had. But I think they may have been wrong in assuming that people will switch just because.

I don't want anything to do with that abomination, and if Blue is more of the same, I don't want that either.


RE: Free market
By NellyFromMA on 12/28/12, Rating: 0
RE: Free market
By Uncle on 12/28/2012 1:20:11 PM , Rating: 1
May I add to your 2cents. Desktops will wither away,slowly, as you can see where MS is going with there Win8. Tablets, phones. Real gamers will stick it out with desktops, but as they admit, the enthusiasts are only about 5% of the market. I think the consoles will be the only choice in the near future. To my older friends I push laptops, even gave my wife one and junked the desktop. Its good to get rid of clutter, it sure opened up space in the kitchen. Were going back to small is beautiful, especially if all you do is answer emails, FB, and some browsing. Young people don't need and want big hawnking boxes, portability is what matters to them.


RE: Free market
By Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer on 12/28/2012 2:57:52 PM , Rating: 4
Welp, it took less than two hours for this discussion to get Godwin'd.

Seriously, though, what is with this argument that "Hey, you can still buy Windows 7, so Windows 8 isn't being forced on you"? It's complete and total disingenuous bull$#!+.


RE: Free market
By Uncle on 12/28/2012 4:21:27 PM , Rating: 2
Agree because MS has this rule that says they only support the two latest OS's(excusing Corporations). which means that as soon as some form of win9 shows up 7 need not be supported any more,so they do force you to move up sometime whether you like it or not.


RE: Free market
By Mike Acker on 12/30/2012 8:00:56 AM , Rating: 1
this post did not deserve to get modded to -1 . that it did simply underscores the crowd mentality of the modders


RE: Free market
By Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer on 12/30/2012 11:11:30 AM , Rating: 2
Did we read the same post? Of course it deserved to get downranked to -1.

1) The tone is obnoxious and overbearing (yes, I realize that that's a pretty ironic statement, coming from me).

2) The "holocaust" comment is utterly unnecessary and inappropriate.

3) The premise that, because Windows 7 is still for sale, Windows 8 isn't being forced on you is wrong in so many ways that I'm not even going to bother to counter the claim.

4) The prediction that Metro and the desktop will splinter is ridiculous. The desktop will disappear and be replaced by Metro, if Microsoft has it's way.

5) The next paragraph after that, I don't even know where to start.

6) Just writing "power users such as I" earned the downranking.

I'm not gonna spend any more time dissecting the post, but yeah. That post got downranked on its own "merits", no "crowd mentality" needed.


RE: Free market
By Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer on 12/30/2012 12:01:02 PM , Rating: 2
Ugh, did I really type "it's" instead of "its"? Awkward...


RE: Free market
By NellyFromMA on 1/7/2013 4:49:50 PM , Rating: 2
Lol odl fogie labels me obnoxious, overbearing, and even insensitive because I dare use the world holocaust. I guess in general people like you are exactly like people like me prefer not to even bother explaining things in the first place. Good luck with that narrow perspective of yours.


RE: Free market
By NellyFromMA on 1/7/2013 5:03:49 PM , Rating: 2
1 Your whole response is obnoxious and overbearing.

2 The holocaust comment is not offensive and if you are offended, change your diapers

3 Microsoft can support any number of OSes that they'd like and XP hung on for a decade, so Win7 haniging around is not unthinkable.

4 See 3

5 and 6, honestly, go f*ck yourself. I offer insight and you're all uptight because only your perspective is correct. F*ck you


RE: Free market
By NellyFromMA on 1/7/2013 4:51:06 PM , Rating: 2
Lol, thanks for the support. Bottom line is I expected a tech site, and instead got a fan club. It's just time to leave dt behind personally. The trolls has moved in and they simply aren't leaving. Eh, I'm over it.


RE: Free market
By tayb on 12/28/2012 1:08:23 PM , Rating: 2
What is useless about the screen screen? Seriously. I would love to hear specifics.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 1:28:46 PM , Rating: 5
The fact that it exists, and obfuscates access to the desktop and Start menu.

It serves no purpose on anything other than a touchscreen device like a tablet. It's less than useless on a laptop or desktop.


RE: Free market
By Etsp on 12/28/2012 2:46:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
obfuscates access to the desktop and Start menu
It obfuscates access to...itself?? The start screen IS the start menu. I've been using Windows 8 for a couple of weeks now on my home desktop, no touch input. I'm not having any trouble doing the things I want to do with it.

It is a bit annoying to step away from the desktop to open an app, but that's pretty much my only complaint with it.

It's easy to use with a keyboard. From the desktop, hit the Windows key, type the name of the program you want, and press enter. Boom. Start screen is gone, and your app is open, either on the desktop or as a "Windows 8 app".

Prefer to use the mouse? Hit the windows key and click on your app. Or hover the mouse in the bottom left corner, click to open the start screen, then click on the app.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 3:09:28 PM , Rating: 2
...all of which is more work to get the same thing done. Ergo, less than worthless.


RE: Free market
By lotharamious on 12/28/2012 3:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...all of which is more work to get the same thing done. Ergo, less than worthless.


Here's what I heard from you, Motoman, based on your original post and response:

"Alalalalala! Not listening! I'm right and you're wrong!"


RE: Free market
By damianrobertjones on 12/28/2012 3:43:49 PM , Rating: 2
Utter bollox.

You STILL have the same facilities available to you along with the expanded options presented by the new interface and Windows 8.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 3:47:28 PM , Rating: 3
You're demonstrably wrong. It's harder to get to the same places with that stupid tile interface there.

If you could just delete the tile interface, and have a normal, productive Windows desktop/Start menu again, then fine. But MS won't let you do that.

The tile interface is like the Fisher-Price version of a computer. Made for dummies, by dummies.


RE: Free market
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/28/2012 4:32:13 PM , Rating: 1
Agreed, I tried to remove a password for someone in 8, what a cluster fuck, and even following instructions I had to google for, it STILL did not remove the password.


RE: Free market
By Etsp on 12/28/2012 3:53:15 PM , Rating: 2
How is it more or less work to hit the windows key, start typing the name of your app, and press enter? That's one of the fastest ways to use the start menu in Windows 7, and the process is exactly the same, even if it's visually different.

Between using the start menu and using the start screen, there are no additional steps to take. Not one single mouse-click or keyboard press is required from the desktop to open an application.

Prefer to have apps pinned to the task bar? Well, you can still do that in Windows 8.


RE: Free market
By Etsp on 12/28/2012 4:07:08 PM , Rating: 3
EDIT:
Not one additional mouse-click or keyboard press is required from the desktop to open an application.

*standard dailytech grumble about edit buttons*


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 5:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
Faster to just not move your right hand from the mouse to the keyboard to type things in. Just mouse over the Start menu and boom - done. And Dog help you if you make a typo while typing into your little box.

The whole reason GUIs were invented were to give a good visual interface to interact with with digital input devices, like mice. Saying "just type stuff in the box" is basically like saying "Just go back to DOS."


RE: Free market
By Etsp on 12/29/2012 12:35:26 AM , Rating: 2
Using the keyboard isn't necessary, and using only the mouse to open an application from the start screen requires the exact same actions as on windows 7.

Windows 7:
Move cursor to start button (aka: bottom left corner of the screen.)
Left-Click
Move cursor to application you wish to run.
Left-Click

Windows 8:
Move cursor to bottom left corner of the screen.
Left-Click
Move cursor to application you wish to run.
Left-Click

The big difference between 7 and 8? 8 gives you a much larger list of applications to choose from without additional clicks. You're free to rearrange how the applications are ordered and sized.


RE: Free market
By tayb on 12/28/2012 7:03:29 PM , Rating: 2
Do you know what the word obfuscate means?

If you would get over the fact that it's full screen you would come to the realization that it is an enhanced start menu that takes up the full screen. And the fact that it takes up the full screen is absolutely meaningless.

As per usual with blind haters/fanboys such as yourself, you didn't even list anything. "Obfuscating" the desktop (and itself??) isn't a critique, it's an flawed observation. At least you've done so with vigor!


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 8:15:22 PM , Rating: 4
It's only an "enhanced start menu" to people that are stupid enough to believe such BS - like yourself. To the rest of us, who aren't retarded, it's a cell phone UI.

The tiles are infinitely less useful than just icons and widgets on the Win7 desktop. And putting the Start menu anywhere but *right there* is an abject failure of catastrophic proportions. Idiots like most people supporting Win8 only use Facebook and email - so it doesn't matter what their UI is. Others, like me, have dozens or hundreds of programs installed on their PC, and the tile interface is horrifically unsuitable for any imaginable organization to arrange and access them. The start menu, on the other hand, is so good that it essentially can't be improved upon.

But, children never listen and have to learn the hard way, I guess...


RE: Free market
By Nutzo on 12/28/2012 2:31:20 PM , Rating: 2
It's already happening.
My niece in college has used both Macs and Windows systems (XP & Windows 7).
She needed a new laptop, but after seeing all the laptops are now coming with windows 8, decided to get a Mac instead, even though it cost more. That’s how much she disliked Windows 8.


RE: Free market
By Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer on 12/28/2012 2:44:37 PM , Rating: 2
She could have gotten a ThinkPad; you can still order those with Windows 7. :) Or she could have bought a retail copy of Windows 7 and transferred it from computer to computer as she upgraded.

But--as much as it pains me to say this--I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for jumping ship to Apple after they took a look at Windows 8. I went from XP to OSX myself, but was happy to switch back to Microsoft for Windows 7. Sadly, I don't see any hope at the end of the 8/Blue tunnel.


RE: Free market
By TakinYourPoints on 12/28/2012 5:14:07 PM , Rating: 2
Even though OS X is very good, I'd say it might be more to do with the hardware than the operating system. It is crazy that other PC OEMs don't bother with a good display, keyboard, trackpad, intelligent accessories, etc, on their laptops. Pick two at best, which sucks.


RE: Free market
By erple2 on 12/29/2012 8:38:22 AM , Rating: 2
To be fair, there are plenty of laptops today that have good screens, better keyboards, and better accessories (why do i need to spend multiples of $29.99 to get basic accessory functionality) that are built in. I will concede, however that nobody has been able to replicate well the brilliant (even if it is only one button) track pad on the unibody mbp's.

That wasn't true a couple of years ago (then again, apple laptops before the current rMBP's also used crummy TN screens that they did a fair job to hide), however.

To whatever point someone else said about typing to find things being 'DOS' like - yes, there are some things that DOS did very well, better than even modern os's - I still use cmd-space to launch all of my apps on osx, just like I use windows key type to start them on windows 7. It's a lot faster than trying to click in the right spot to find a non-pinned app. A heck of a lot more accurate, too.


RE: Free market
By TakinYourPoints on 12/29/2012 8:07:49 PM , Rating: 3
There are very few laptops with comparable displays, ones like the upgraded (not standard) Lenovo X220 and the Asus Zenbook Prime. Lenovo has very good keyboards in their comparably priced mid and high end laptops. Other than that, no, you're still dealing with inferior trackpads, inferior accessories (the international power kit for the MBP still blows everything else away), as well as systemwide multitouch gesture support through the OS.

I agree with you about type-to-search or type-to-launch though, it is great. I've used Spotlight and Windows Search to do those functions since they were made available (2005 in OS 10.4 and 2009 when WS was fixed in Windows 7) and they're excellent. I actually do the same with some other apps too (Steam, iTunes), it is a hell of a lot faster than hunting with a mouse when you have dozens or thousands of things to hunt through.


RE: Free market
By talikarni on 12/28/2012 2:55:59 PM , Rating: 3
As a long time tech, I have learned to skip every other release of Windows on my personal system, and wait to upgrade when I do for around a year.

I skipped WinME and Vista, and now Win8...

For normal people, we have had that Start menu for a LONG time (in technology time). Completely removing it is just the wrong move for Microsoft, and then they wonder why sales are falling flat? It seems they always screw up every other release, which is why I avoid them myself (WinME, Vista, now Win8).


RE: Free market
By damianrobertjones on 12/28/2012 3:38:09 PM , Rating: 2
Please do not assume that YOU speak for everyone.


RE: Free market
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/28/2012 4:35:36 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately, I see a lot of that here, people think their opinions mirror everyone.


RE: Free market
By FirstoneVorlon on 12/28/2012 7:58:05 PM , Rating: 2
I keep failing to understand all the BS about Windows 8....... It's absolutely illogical........ I've been running it on my computer since they put it up to sale and it works perfectly, no problems whatsoever and I have 2 different environments I can use without any problems, my old Desktop (with a FREE UTILITY called CLASSIC SHELL, it gives the start button and lots of functions back) and the new Metro or ModernUI. I have absolutely no problems bouncing from one environment to the other, and I can download apps from the app store, quite nice. Now, just a thought, if it was Apple or Google who created an OS merging Mobile OS and Desktop OS exactly like Microsoft did, people would be PRAISING them, saying how brilliant they are, how inventive. Now, just because it's Microsoft people keep bashing it. Just learn how to use the thing and you'll realize you have MORE than before, and that's the truth behind it.
I can guarantee 100%, if you install in your computer and do your set of customization on it, install Classic Shell, you will not want to see Vista, XP or 7 again……..


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/28/2012 8:17:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
(with a FREE UTILITY called CLASSIC SHELL, it gives the start button and lots of functions back)


We're not Apple users - we aren't the ones responsible to fix the BS the manufacturer makes.

I'd consider putting Aston Shell on it if I were forced to use it - but that's not the point. Why should I have to fix the OS to make it usable? Win7 is infinitely more user-friendly and conducive to productivity than Win8 - so just stick with that.


RE: Free market
By crispbp04 on 12/29/2012 1:01:51 PM , Rating: 1
Words from short-sighted fools. The start button was utterly useless and needed to die. You'll "get it" after a few more iterations.. well, I can only hope.


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/29/2012 2:28:02 PM , Rating: 2
There is no possible way to organize and access dozens to hundreds of applications better than the Start menu.

You'd get that if you did more than play solitaire and surf Chatroulette.


RE: Free market
By crispbp04 on 12/30/12, Rating: 0
RE: Free market
By boeush on 12/30/2012 7:11:53 PM , Rating: 3
Sometimes the type-a-word approach fails. Namely, when you either don't remember the exact name of the program (particularly an issue for the grandparent types) or when you don't know the exact name to begin with. Hierarchical visual organization lets you drill down to what you need by following conceptual or semantic links. It is the optimal mechanism for DISCOVERY of functionality that you might not have known existed. It's the way the Web (with its hyperlinks) is organized. With win8, Microsoft has done strange things to discoverability, in some ways improving it and yet in other ways severely damaging it.

They have also violated a cardinal rule of product design: if it ain't broken, don't fix it. They should have at a minimum given an option of choosing which shell a user wants to run (which is also one of the longest-running faux pas in Windows generally, that is commingling actual underlying OS and the superficial veneer that is the UI into a monolithic intertwined package, rather than allowing users to mix and match UI vs. OS to their liking.)


RE: Free market
By Motoman on 12/30/2012 7:11:59 PM , Rating: 2
...as far as that goes, you don't "need" a GUI anyway. F%ck all this noise and just go back to DOS, 'cuz that's all you "need."

Start menu and traditional desktop is *better*. The Metrosexual UI is worse.

Period. End of story. The more you try to pretend that isn't true, the more pathetic you get.


RE: Free market
By superkev72 on 1/1/2013 2:31:36 AM , Rating: 1
Except the Start button argument just doesn't hold water. The Start 'menu' is a mere 3 pixels offset from where the start 'button' was. They both launch apps with a click. The menu that appears is full screen but just click in the same spot and you're instantly back to the desktop. It seems most of the criticism are from those who either haven't used it at all or just hate MS with a passion and jumping on the hate bandwagon. I can think of some more tangible improvements MS could make to Win8 though and yet few bring any of those up.


RE: Free market
By SAN-Man on 1/1/2013 1:28:17 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree. Windows 7 is good enough to stick with another five years in my opinion, perhaps longer.

I have no plans to move to Windows 8 or Windows Blue or whatever they're calling it now.


RE: Free market
By Argon18 on 1/2/2013 12:41:40 PM , Rating: 2
Funny, I always get voted down when I say the same thing. Windows 8 is a desktop turd. Period. Nobody wants it. It might work on tablets and phones, but on the desktop, it's an answer to a question nobody asked.

Like Vista before it, and ME before that, everyone is going to skip them, OEM's, businesses, and consumers alike. Microsoft knows this, hence this new "Blue" short cycle release.


"And boy have we patented it!" -- Steve Jobs, Macworld 2007














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