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  (Source: sciencemediacentre.co.nz)
The top states that would be hit are California, Maryland, Virginia, Massachusetts and Washington D.C.

Science programs in America may take a very hard hit if sequestration of federal funds takes place, according to a new study.

The study, conducted for the Aerospace Industries Association by Center for Regional Analysis Director Steve Fuller, shows that large cuts in employment in U.S. science programs could affect scientific progress and even non-scientific jobs across the country.

Currently, the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that 1,082,370 U.S. citizens work in the life sciences such as biology. However, if the fiscal cliff's sequestration of federal funds becomes a reality, 31,000 of these citizens could lose their jobs.

"The 31,000 figure does not include the indirect job losses, such as subcontractors, suppliers and vendors, or the induced job impacts," said Fuller. "Induced jobs are those supported by employee's spending on goods and services, so these are unlikely to be STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math) type jobs but rather retail, consumer services, education and health, construction and those types of occupations.

"The direct jobs are clearly the immediate losses and encompass most of the STEM-type jobs. There will be some subcontractor job losses, including some STEM type jobs. For DOD contracts in general, subcontractor jobs are about 26 percent of the total where the direct jobs are about 30 percent. The remaining job losses, 44 percent, are induced."

Furthermore, a potential $56.7 billion cut to the Department of Defense (DOD) would eliminate 14,982 science jobs out of the total 325,693 lost. Another $59 billion cut to the U.S. Geological Survey would mean another 15,980 science jobs lost.

Matthew Hourihan, director of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), further added that certain states like California would be hit the hardest with a potenial $11.3 million loss. The other four states in the top five included Maryland, Virginia, Massachusetts and Washington D.C.

An even more troubling outcome pointed out by Hourihan would be that American science would be set back by about a decade.

Another issue is grant proposals. Scientists will spend more time writing these grant proposals to keep their labs running and staffed rather than working on actual science. Also, a cut in federal spending could mean a $586 million loss for the American Institute of Biological Sciences, and a grant proposal success rate drop from 22 percent to 16 percent.

Source: Discovery News



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Keep cutting!
By sleepeeg3 on 11/27/2012 2:38:04 AM , Rating: 5
Being both a molecular biologist and a person who actually cares about this country - keep cutting! The $115.7B cuts mentioned in this article is nothing compared to what our current annual deficit is, let along coming close to helping reduce our national debt. The amount the US pays in interest alone is over double that amount! www.usdebtclock.org. If every penny in taxes went to paying off the national debt (impossible), it would take us 7 years to pay it off! Our current debt-to-GDP ratio is 105% - Greece went backrupt at ~129%. According to the www.whitehouse.gov own budget tables, we will add another $10,000,000,000,000.00 to the national debt and be around 175% debt-to-GDP by 2021... We are that close to being bankrupt.

People need to quit thinking about themselves, and think about the consequences of unrestricted spending. What will happen? The media has done nothing to enlighten or scare the American public, but likely the American dollar will see a revaluing in the near future, much like the Mexican peso did in 1993. In that case, the Mexican peso was revalued to 1/1000'th of the original peso. That could very well be the United States of America's future...




RE: Keep cutting!
By FITCamaro on 11/27/2012 8:50:52 AM , Rating: 4
Sad part is, even if Obama got everything he wants right now($4.4 trillion in "savings" over 10 years) and the math was actually valid, we'd still be at or near $1 trillion dollar deficits.

They have no desire to come anywhere near balancing the budget. And slashing the military won't do it.

Entitlement spending is the problem. We had 70 million people on Medicaid last year(between the poor and seniors, 36% of this country is on government health care insurance). 46 million on food stamps. And the numbers are increasing.


RE: Keep cutting!
By Gio6518 on 11/27/2012 10:44:02 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Entitlement spending is the problem. We had 70 million people on Medicaid last year(between the poor and seniors, 36% of this country is on government health care insurance). 46 million on food stamps. And the numbers are increasing.


This is the biggest problem with our (US) economy, not only are we supporting laziness of our citizens, but also the illegal aliens that have never contributed to any programs...and don't forget about the billions that are given to world welfare "FOREIGN AID"....

http://foreignassistance.gov/CountryIntro.aspx


RE: Keep cutting!
By RufusM on 11/27/2012 10:55:11 AM , Rating: 2
But the populous wants their bread and circuses. Politicians won't deny them.


RE: Keep cutting!
By RufusM on 11/27/2012 11:07:25 AM , Rating: 2
Also, it's stories and articles such as this that work to keep the status quo in place by spreading FUD.

The stories go like this:
Government spending cuts will cause thousands to lose their jobs, critical education programs will be shrunk and the US will be crippled.

The problem is it's easy to displace private sector jobs with government but MUCH harder to displace government jobs with private sector jobs. The private sector typically has to act based on market forces where the government does not.


RE: Keep cutting!
By Ammohunt on 11/27/2012 11:20:25 AM , Rating: 2
And as long as they have that there will never be enough outrage for real change. People have lost sight of what made America great and our culture is all about self much like European humanism. Passive sheep in a pen waiting to be sheared.


RE: Keep cutting!
By tayb on 11/27/2012 11:39:39 AM , Rating: 2
The only way to balance the budget is to cut spending and increase taxes. Half the country refuses to increase taxes and the other half refuses to decrease spending. Good luck balancing the budget with these two factions in control. Make no mistake, taxes must go up and spending must go down for this deficit to be tamed. Neither one in isolation will do the trick.

There is no quick fix. Even if we could all agree on tax increases and spending cuts we couldn't do it all at once or the economy would crash. It has to be gradual. Gradual as in 20+ years. That's the danger of a cliff. Pulling that much money out of the economy that fast will lead to a recession.


RE: Keep cutting!
By Kurz on 11/27/2012 12:32:21 PM , Rating: 2
I've seen that just spending cuts can do it.
Multiple studies on the subject paint its possible to do without tax increases.


RE: Keep cutting!
By deksman2 on 11/27/12, Rating: 0
RE: Keep cutting!
By mackx on 11/27/2012 10:11:55 AM , Rating: 2
Gene Roddenberry saw that happening and gave us star trek :o


RE: Keep cutting!
By Ammohunt on 11/27/2012 11:36:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Furthermore, this kind of economic model is fundamentally unsustainable. To expect infinite growth on a finite planet is demented.


That's quite short sighted; this type of economic model feeds itself not unlike a breeder reactor and will eventually top out into a fully sustainable cyclical living creature if managed correctly and feed properly. it is not the lie they teach in college that being a "consume until there is nothing left to consume" scenario. What we are seeing is poor management and unwillingness to apply necessary efficiencies in order for the economy to evolve.


RE: Keep cutting!
By stilltrying on 11/27/2012 7:36:40 PM , Rating: 2
OH GOD watch out for the social engineers as they are by far the worst on the planet. They know everything and will dictate everything. Time for some cybernetics theory here from this one.


RE: Keep cutting!
By geddarkstorm on 11/27/2012 12:16:02 PM , Rating: 2
You show an incredible lack of knowledge of what's going on right now (25% of people in Greece are unemployed due to national debt, and its national debt endangers the entire eurozone), how economy really works (it is NOT debt based, that is something that grew out of the 90's, it is GDP and trade based), and history (Mexico, Zimbabwe, Argentina, USSR, etc.).

At every turn you can see your premise for your talk is wrong, and yet you still speak such folly.

As for the automation part of the post, hopefully things will get that rosy where people don't have to do the menial jobs as much as now -- but there's still plenty of folks picking strawberries all day long, so I think you may be sadly overestimating the impact of automation for any time soon.


RE: Keep cutting!
By BigDH01 on 11/27/2012 2:11:43 PM , Rating: 2
He's referring to MMT, a theory that explains modern monetary policy. It is derived from the understanding that sovereign debt and sovereign debt instruments do not behave like household debt, although people make the analogy (usually people seeking power) because it makes sense to the laymen even if it's totally inaccurate. When you realize that the Fed could simply buy US bonds and not collect interest on them then you truly realize that the US can spend unlimited amounts of US dollars. When you accept that to be true, you realize that the only thing that limits gov't spending is inflation, specifically demand-pull (too much money chasing too few products). Fortunately for the US, capacity utilization is low and unemployment high which makes demand-pull inflation unlikely.

Greece is another beast in the sense that its fiscal and monetary policy are detached. They have local fiscal control but are beholden to Europe's monetary authority. The other countries have imposed steep cuts upon them which have only served to increase their unemployment without closing the spending gap all that much, which kind of makes sense. If a large part of their GDP was public spending and they simply cut that spending then they also reduce their GDP and their tax revenue decreases opening up a new hole, which they continue to chase. Greece's best bet is to move off the Euro and regain some monetary independence. This will probably mean more expensive imports for them, but in the long run it will bring back employment.

And one thing you need to remember is that those countries you listed held debt denominated not in their own sovereign currency, something not true of the US debt. And many conservatives implicitly understand that the treasury could eliminate the debt tomorrow if it simply printed (rather digitally fabricated) the money. The concern is and always has been inflation and not some arbitrary debt or deficit number.

It has nothing to do with a "debt-based" economy or anything of the sort and more to do with the fact that the US operates its own sovereign currency that is non-convertible. When the currency became non-convertible (and really even before), monetary policy began playing a whole new ball game even though traditional thinking about sovereign debt hasn't moved away from its household debt metaphor even if the two have nothing in common.


RE: Keep cutting!
By PontiusP on 11/27/2012 3:43:57 PM , Rating: 2
Is that you Cullen?


RE: Keep cutting!
By BigDH01 on 11/27/2012 4:11:37 PM , Rating: 2
If you're referring to Pragmatic Capitalism... no. My primary introduction to MMT came from Mitchell and Wray.

As far as I can tell, the primary use of measuring the debt and deficit is as a weapon against the other guys.


RE: Keep cutting!
By geddarkstorm on 11/27/2012 12:06:03 PM , Rating: 2
As a fellow molecular biologist, whom is also struggling and watching whole university institutions struggle from these hard financial times, I -agree- with you completely.

Tightening the belt is hard, painfully hard, and making it through that transition will be no joke. But things will get better in that situation, and we will re-equilibrate and make it to the other side where prosperity will be stable and easy again. If the country goes bankrupt however (like Greece or Zimbabwe or many other nations have, whom those who say "print more money!" seem to be ignorant of), then there will be no recourse or other side to we could afford to wait for; except to leave this nation for many of us. If it seems bad now for us scientists, it'll be catastrophic then. It must be avoided, even if we have to suffer a little now.


RE: Keep cutting!
By stilltrying on 11/27/2012 7:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
Just wait til the student loan bubble pops which is coming due very soon.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/scariest-...


RE: Keep cutting!
By Sahrin on 11/27/2012 2:56:05 PM , Rating: 2
Alternatively, eliminate the mortgage interest tax deduction that overwhelmingly favors wealthy and older Americans, and then the budget is balanced plus a nice $400B surplus.


RE: Keep cutting!
By sorry dog on 11/27/2012 9:33:37 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, but that is a monumentally terrible idea...

First of all you will kill what's left of the housing market and all the associated industries, mortgage, banking, construction...leading to less tax collections and more unemployment expenditures.

...and you will cause thousands and thousands of defaults...which will be written off leading to less corporate tax collections.

...and you will take away one of the best incentives middle class and lower middle class individuals have to save retirement at a time when savings for retirement is already inadequate for those economic classes.

I could go on, but just those reasons should be enough to show how dumb that would be....but it's just dumb enough that some politicians are suggesting it. Hopefully, it's just a hollow threat to give urgency to making a deal...but ya never know. They may just be that dumb.


RE: Keep cutting!
By Sahrin on 12/5/2012 10:30:32 AM , Rating: 2
>Sorry, but that is a monumentally terrible idea...

No it's not. The economy is growing at an annualized pace of 2.7% with a depressed housing market. The notion that home ownership is some kind of exclusive panacea for the economy is unimaginative in the extreme.

>First of all you will kill what's left of the housing market and all the associated industries, mortgage, banking, construction...leading to less tax collections and more unemployment expenditures.

Uh...what? No, you won't. You will restrict home ownership to people who can afford it. Right now, the MITD is part of the wealth transfer from the middle class to the wealthy. "Give us more of your salary (by reducing your income) and we'll subsidize your housing." I think the middle class would rather earn more money, and then have to pay taxes, than earn less and have to rely on the government to afford their homes.

>I could go on, but just those reasons should be enough to show how dumb that would be....but it's just dumb enough that some politicians are suggesting it. Hopefully, it's just a hollow threat to give urgency to making a deal...but ya never know. They may just be that dumb.

I love that your entire argument hinges on the idea that people need the government to afford their homes. Maybe if, instead of subsidizing everyone's housing at a cost of $1.5T over the next 10 years, the government instead just let the market work itself out - everything would be fine.

The reality is the economy would be *more* stable because of instead of relying on a government handout for home ownership, people would become more financially secure by waiting to buy their first home until they were actually, financially ready. In the short term, it would have a depressive effect, you're absolutely right. But in the long term, the economy would be much better off without another government handout.


RE: Keep cutting!
By PontiusP on 11/27/2012 3:22:50 PM , Rating: 2
You hit the nail on the head. Any hardship caused by the loss of these jobs will be absolutely dwarfed by the hardships experienced from a financial collapse. Like you said, stop thinking about your individual job, and start thinking about what it means for a nation of our size to go under. It isn't going to be pretty.

On that note, here's another good link about the welfare state.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/when-work...

Take a chainsaw to that beast and cut it to the ground!


Either...
By MechanicalTechie on 11/26/2012 11:21:52 PM , Rating: 1
A stroke of genius or the height of incompetence.

Genius because the ramification of cutting scientific research to the mid to long term US economy is so profound that it forces the parties to come to an agreement.

or

Incompetency to risk such an important and far reaching strategic attribute of the country to the whims of feuding Dems and Reps




RE: Either...
By StevoLincolnite on 11/26/2012 11:49:40 PM , Rating: 5
What they should do is:
* Close military bases around the world and bring troops home, do you really need a 1 Billion dollar embassy in the middle east or troops in Australia or Troops in Germany?
You would save money, enhance the defense in the USA and save American lives.

* Reduce the large Government, bureaucracy runs rampant, too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, it's a massive cost to the taxpayers, you would save Billions.

* Everyone of congress should pay their own health care, luxury and benefits, the people already pay their wages.

* Stop Bailing out companies that the free market has dictated to fail, take a page out of the very tiny few countries that avoided recession or even financially went through a booming period during the financial collapse.

Then... They can throw more funds at NASA and other science projects which *will* benefit not only the Americans, but the entire planet AND it will open up new markets for new companies to exploit.
But to cut research is a massive loss long-term for any nation, everything we enjoy today and take for granted was the result of research, medicines, computers, vehicles... Even the materials for your home and what provides the heating and lighting was the result of research.


RE: Either...
By DiscoWade on 11/27/2012 7:25:20 AM , Rating: 1
Let me add a few:

* Stop sending money to foreign countries, any country, except in the case of natural disaster. We can keep sending foreign aid, just not money.

* Stop subsidies. Most especially subsidies to corn and any business that would not succeed without government intervention.

The only private business that should be bailed out is the postal service.

But we need to be careful that we don't just throw money at science. Scientists are corruptible just like all other people. Indeed, there are many corrupt scientists. For example, have you ever seen a poor global warming advocate?


RE: Either...
By maugrimtr on 11/27/2012 9:05:57 AM , Rating: 1
Have you ever seen a poor global warming skeptic? FYI - global warming is a fact. Unless you are a politician pandering to the ignorant. There is some debate over whether it was driven by Humans or not. Even there, the split between scientists is something like 90/10 (being conservative).

It's simply incredible that something people don't want to believe gets all the criticism over potential corruption (has there been any prosecution of this crime ever?). Religious people have the same problem with Evolution. The scientists swear it is currently happened and started 3.5 Billion years ago which was 10.5 Billion years after the Universe exploded into being. That doesn't agree with the Earth being 4000 years old with Man spending most of it hunting Dinosaurs.

Science is a critical process. It is not based on belief and faith in the invisible.


RE: Either...
By TSS on 11/27/2012 10:34:54 AM , Rating: 3
Indeed, science is based on FACT.

Fact is, global warming isn't a fact. There's not even a consensus, not while the data remains flawed and the studies remain political. There's also evidence, EVIDENCE, that points out the earth hasn't warmed a bit since 1998. So we choose to not belive that evidence and choose to belive the warming evidence? That's not science, that's still belief. You do not get to choose reality. In this case, since there's both evidence to support warming and to support cooling, we must conclude we don't know shit. And shouldn't do anything drastic until we do (which would include spending trillions on plant food sequestration).

And the reality of the US Fiscal situation, is that there is no solution bar going back to being a 3rd world country. The FACT is your tax revenues are LOWER then the TOTAL SPENDING of MANDATORY SPENDING. Get it?

You can cut discretionairy spending COMPLETLY, that includes the ENTIRE militairy, and you would STILL have a deficit.

You do realise that the "fiscal cliff" is about roughly $4 trillion dollars spread out over 10 years? That you need to cut spending by atleast $1,5 trillion *per* year, just to make the debt stop going higher? I mean that does nothing for the interest on the national debt which is already $500 billion, at 0% interest rates for 5 years (meaning around 75% of TOTAL US debt should now be financed at 0% interest). If the rates go back to 5% like they where under bush, you'd be looking at $800, if not $1 trillion already. Yearly expendatures. Want to reduce that? Only 1 way: Pay it off. Cut even more spending.

May i remind you that other nations with similar fiscal situations would be running at atleast 8%-9% interest rates? As soon as that reserve status of the dollar drops, dat interest pops.

This is fact! FACTS! Reality, science, call it whatever you will the point is it's already happened! It's here, now, today that this is happening. Even if you stick your head in the sand you will be evicted from your hole in the ground sooner or later.

You'd have to be pretty goddamn stupid if you can't google "US fiscal 2012 budget", go to wikipedia and figure out that 3,7-2,4 =1,3. Cause that's your deficit, $1,3 trillion a year. discretionary spending, $1,3 trillion a year, says so right on that page. Your politicians are pretty goddamn stupid.

You cannot cut, tax, spend, or grow yourself out of this situation. All because the US, nay, the world of today in it's entirety couldn't recognise a fact even if it slapped the world in it's face with a trout.


RE: Either...
By maugrimtr on 11/28/12, Rating: 0
RE: Either...
By chripuck on 11/28/2012 11:21:50 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with you on the consensus that the globe is warming, but there is not even close to a consensus on the source of this. Everything is a hypothesis and nothing has been proven. Climategate and other similar "cover ups" only prove that there continue to be anomalies in the data that, once smoothed out, support CO2 as the catalyst for warming. I'm sorry, but as long as those anomalies exist, you cannot claim the model is correct.

In regards to FUD, read this: http://www.npr.org/2007/03/22/9082151/global-warmi...

A little dated, but an excellent summary of why people don't really fear man-made global warming. The arguments simply aren't convincing enough.


RE: Either...
By maugrimtr on 11/30/2012 8:01:33 AM , Rating: 2
You're wrong. There is a concensus that Humans are causing it. Lying doesn't change that - it's widely provable (check any reliable source). C02 and Methane are also, by consensus, agreed as the chief causes. There is not a consensus on all the mechanics - scientists actually rely on models to see what does and doesn't agree with reality. It's an iterative approach where assumptions are made, discarded or modified to ensure bad models are dumped and good ones improved. It will decades (or more!) to piece together the massively complex system we call weather to get predictions that are always close to perfect.

Your link is FUD in the context you used it. If you read the whole debate summary, the topic was a debate motion entitled "Global Warming Is Not A Crisis". It does not claim that global warming is not happening nor does it deny that Humans are causing it - it debates only whether it's a "crisis" to the Planet. Our best understanding indicates creeping temp rises for decades to come if we do nothing.

But thank you for proving my point that people rely on FUD in this topic. The science is far different. There is a ~95% consensus that global warming is occurring, and a consensus also on the fact that Humans are driving it. So where does all the doubting come from? How can so many people ignore 95% of the scientific community and favor a tiny minority?

Many people just believe what they want to believe. They'll find evidence to support that belief and ignore all other evidence to the contrary. This is not scientific enlightenment - it's the ignorance of the masses and the pandering of their dishonest politicians.

"Everything is a hypothesis and nothing has been proven". The preponderance of evidence to date begs to differ. Of course, it's far easier to pretend that doesn't exist and then mangle the intention of the Scientific Method's meaning of hypothesis to suggest science is still playing guessing games. That's an unattainable level of certainty as you are well aware in a area of science reliant. If you're not aware of this, you're not in a position to define science to actual scientists.

Climategate! Oh, wait - that was a bunch of FUD too. http://www.salon.com/2012/10/24/climategate_scient... Trumped up out of context emails that led to puffy cloud hopes that this would be the end of global warming. It's been debunked for a long time - why are you still dragging this out other than to evoke some emotional anger at the naughty scientists (that did nothing naughty at all).

I despair at sharing the right with some people...


RE: Either...
By chripuck on 11/28/2012 11:23:21 AM , Rating: 2
And to excerpt the article:

"Is the globe warming? Yes. Is the greenhouse effect real? Yes. Is carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, being increased by men? Yes. Would we expect this warming to have an effect? Yes. Do human beings in general affect the climate? Yes. But none of that answers the core question of whether or not carbon dioxide is the contemporary driver for the warming we're seeing. And as far as I could tell scientists had, had postulated that but they hadn't demonstrated it. So I'm kind of stranded here."


RE: Either...
By stilltrying on 11/28/2012 10:06:48 PM , Rating: 1
Consensus means shit, it aint science, prove it. With predictable results right down to the T. Not generalizations, if it cant predict shit it aint fact and it aint science. Tell me when its going to snow and how much in flagstaff Jan 12, 2013. Science predicts stuff. Get a clue and learn what science is first.


RE: Either...
By FITCamaro on 11/27/2012 1:53:24 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
FYI - global warming is a fact.


In a world where facts are opinion.

That the climate changes over time is a fact. There is no proof whatsoever than mankind is changing how that fact plays out though.


Oh nos!
By MeesterNid on 11/27/2012 8:30:55 AM , Rating: 4
Not science programs! Say it isn't so!

Let's stop all this idiotic bellyaching and cherry picking of what will "suffer" if we plunge down the "fiscal cliff". All these argument are academic since when we run out of money we will be cutting everything!

What really boggles my mind is how many people fall for the populist propaganda of "they'll cut your medicare and social security!!!" instead of looking at the implications of just being broke and understanding that in that scenario they wouln't need to cut it, it'll just disappear.




RE: Oh nos!
By Ammohunt on 11/27/2012 11:40:37 AM , Rating: 2
Couldn't agree more what good are science programs when the future of our entire society is at stake i.e. potential for a severely limited future.


Science, Schmience
By superflex on 11/27/2012 8:35:01 AM , Rating: 2
We've got social justice programs to fund!




Oh no
By FITCamaro on 11/27/2012 8:47:44 AM , Rating: 2
Whatever will we do without endless studies on sex, drugs, and smoking that largely tell us what we already know.




No way
By Argon18 on 11/27/2012 1:05:17 PM , Rating: 2
Didn't you watch the Presidential debates? When the Fiscal Cliff question was asked, Obama replied "It won't happen".

So clearly it's a non issue, the boy-king has everything under control. /sarcasm




Deal with this one.
By stilltrying on 11/27/2012 7:42:18 PM , Rating: 2
This world is so backwards its scary.

THE MORE MONEY YOU HAVE THE BIGGER PART OF THE NATIONAL DEBT YOU OWN OR ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR, PERIOD. MOST PEOPLE DREAM ABOUT WINNING THE LOTTERY WHEN IN FACT IT (DEBT MONEY) IS WHAT WILL ULTIMATELY CAUSE THE DOWNFALL OF THIS COUNTRY.

Quit complaining start turning in your dollar bills and tell them to apply it to reducing the national debt. They have all of the slaves running around everywhere looking for higher paying debt jobs, LOL.




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