backtop


Print 119 comment(s) - last by rocketbuddha.. on Nov 28 at 6:15 PM

Microsoft wants 20,000 extra green cards per year too

Microsoft is willing to pay the U.S. government for additional H-1B worker visas, saying there aren't enough skilled Americans to fill its available job openings.
 
More specifically, it suggested that the government raise $500 million a year by tacking on an extra $10,000 fee for each newly created H-1B visa or $15,000 for each new green card. This money can then be used to offer better education in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) for Americans. Microsoft noted that not enough Americans are skilled in these areas to keep up with demand.

In addition to raising the number of visas offered, Microsoft wants the government to give 20,000 extra green cards per year.

H-1B visas allow foreign workers to come to the U.S. temporarily to work in their field. They can renew their visas every three years. Green cards, on the other hand, allow foreign workers to live in the country permanently. Currently, the government offers 65,000 visas a year, but in the past has seen numbers as high as 195,000.

Microsoft is one of the largest sponsors when it comes to H-1B visas. Ten percent of its 57,400 U.S. workforce are H-1B visa holders. From 2010 to 2011, it applied for about 850 visas annually for new employees on their very first H-1B visa. In 2011, Microsoft sponsored over 4,700 H-1B workers for green cards.

Many worry, however, that Microsoft is just looking for cheap labor. An issue is that Microsoft and other corporations don't need to prove that there aren't skilled Americans to fill these jobs. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) even warned that there are "inadequate safeguards" that protect skilled Americans from being booted out of jobs for cheaper foreign workers.

"The biggest myth people have is that a company like Microsoft somehow looks to foreign workers as an easy supply to displace American workers," said Karen Jones, Microsoft's deputy general counsel for human resources. "We simply cannot find qualified Americans to fill these jobs."

An analysis of Microsoft's green card applications shows that 25 percent were entry-level workers and 61 percent were a step up as software engineers or marketing managers. Most hold technical jobs, but most also make fewer than six figures while many graduates usually demand over $100,000 annual salaries.

Source: The Seattle Times



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Seems legit..
By quiksilvr on 11/26/2012 3:06:37 PM , Rating: 5
I mean, why spend that money training individuals and boosting the strength of our country's workforce and intellect when you can just grab them from across the border and take advantage of them by paying only half as much?




RE: Seems legit..
By chmilz on 11/26/2012 3:21:18 PM , Rating: 5
Next time you run into some youths, converse with them for a minute. If it takes you more than that minute to discover why MS (and thousands of other companies) need to import skilled workers, you're part of the problem.


RE: Seems legit..
By soccerballtux on 11/26/12, Rating: -1
RE: Seems legit..
By Argon18 on 11/26/12, Rating: -1
RE: Seems legit..
By tayb on 11/26/2012 5:40:19 PM , Rating: 5
You're blaming the kid when the problem is really the entire education system.

In high school counselors are supposed to COUNSEL kids but they do anything but. They don't talk about the costs of student loans, they don't talk about what you can or can't do with a certain degree, they don't talk about future or current job prospects for a given degree, they don't even remotely prepare you for the rigors of a certain degree, and they definitely don't talk about earnings potential. About the only thing they do efficiently is scare you into making sure you do go to college. Parents? "Ask your counselor."

Outside of the counseling situation we have a complete failure from the ground up to properly educate children in STEM. I'm talking kindergarten all the way up through 12th grade. It is POSSIBLE to graduate from a high school in the United States without EVER having taken Chemistry, Physics, Algebra II, Geometry, Pre-Calculus, or Calculus. How is this possible? How can a child graduate from high school with no knowledge of math beyond simple algebra and no knowledge of science beyond freshman biology??? This is an absolute joke.

...on to the colleges...

From my experience there is an abundance of incoming freshman enrolling in STEM programs at universities. If half of these kids finished with degree we wouldn't have a shortage. Unfortunately for these wide eyed freshman their high school education fails them so miserably they are not even REMOTELY prepared for a STEM curriculum. The most intelligent students pass and move on while the vast majority drop out (of the program) within a SINGLE semester. When I was a freshman at UT Austin the professor in an introduction to digital systems class said "look to your left, look to your right, look at yourself. Only one of you will pass this class." Boy was that true. The class was hard but it wasn't outrageous. If I hadn't taken AP Chemistry I would have struggled even more than I did.

And my last point... failure of colleges to move beyond "theory teaching." I interviewed 15 applicants for a .NET web application developer position. Every applicant had a college degree and some had a degree and 15+ years of experience. Of the 15 that I interviewed only ONE was able to pass a "FizzBuzz" test using the programming language of THEIR CHOICE! (Google FizzBuzz to see how ridiculous easy this test is.) I'll attribute some of this to nerves but a lot of these guys had no idea what they were doing. They couldn't initialize a loop on their own, write a new method, or even come close to writing a program from start->new project to completion. These guys LEARNED to copy their professors code and "make it work." They didn't actually learn how to write code.

All in all I'll say that it's very easy to just jump and blame the current generation of kids (my generation, actually) but the problem is systemic. The entire education system is catered to the lowest common denominator and the idea of "tough love" has nearly completely disappeared. "Yes, Timmy, if studying History is what you want to do you should do it!!" Schools are miserable failures, universities are miserable failures, and parents are miserable failures. Kids, by virtue of their surroundings, education, and upbringing, are likely to also be miserable failures.


RE: Seems legit..
By dgingerich on 11/26/12, Rating: 0
RE: Seems legit..
By bsd228 on 11/26/2012 10:02:24 PM , Rating: 4
Sorry - if the English teachers are a stickler for the formatting and they state this (Shrunk & White, for example), and you then proceed to ignore it, they're going to flunk you, no matter what your major is. Saying these standards aren't important and you have a high IQ isn't going to sway them a bit. Nor can you claim you have a great work ethic if you ignore these.

The point of writing in English comp is to articulate an argument. A paper describing how to assemble a computer lacks an argument...that's why she did not like it. Even something a trite as Intel vs AMD would have been a better paper than a tutorial, which is what you presented. I'll say that I did not understand this after 4 years of honors English classes in high school. It wasn't until college that this became clear. Writing is not about showing that you can demonstrate knowledge of both sides of an argument. It's about taking the information and then using it to make an assertion and to support it.

An AP score let me skip one semester of the two required for English comp and I was able to meet the second one taking a Western Civilization lit class, which covered writings throughout the Industrial Era. You may have found that more approachable. But if you don't think you need knowledge of economics or psychology or history to be your best...you're wrong. A programmer might have an easier time without these, but as a sysadmin you need to be able to work well with others, not be the unix troll in the closet.


RE: Seems legit..
By RufusM on 11/27/2012 11:20:54 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, the point of college is to produce well rounded individuals. If you want specific training you'll need to take private or online classes or attend a vocational college.

You're right in that a number of computer science jobs are heavily focused on experience rather than education, but there are many companies requiring a college degree. There are only so many jobs where it's okay for an employee to perform their core function but have problems communicating with customers or writing an email with correct punctuation. Employers will only put up with that until they find someone who's good at both.


RE: Seems legit..
By Wererat on 11/28/2012 10:00:04 AM , Rating: 2
The point of a Bachelor's degree is to teach you how to think -- although many universities appear to have abandoned that in favor of teaching _what_ to think.

This is my problem with the IT industry today and H1Bs. Most H1Bs come over here and can code in the language/API they're hired to code. However, anything more -- writing (even code documentation), speaking coherently, understanding _why_ they're coding something, or thinking beyond the spec isn't included.

Worse, as a whole, most of them act as if they've been raised to consider independent thought as a Bad Thing. This makes them great IT insects and terrible professionals.

On the corporate side, HR departments have really worked hard to turn software into an insectoid career. Nobody wants an engineer proper who solves problems; they want a code-robot with the right acronyms on his resume.

This is because actually evaluating the ability to think is hard and parsing a text resume for keywords is easy, but mostly because companies have shifted from the idea of retaining and nurturing a career employee to employing a disposable work unit.

This doesn't actually work as planned; it takes a lot of design overhead, QA, project management, and rework to handle the fact that you just hired a code generation unit and not a person.


RE: Seems legit..
By fic2 on 11/27/2012 1:07:34 PM , Rating: 2
You must have missed the part where he said, "One, in a "write directions" paper". He would have gotten an F if he turned in an Intel vs AMD paper since that wasn't the assignment.

I agree that English is pretty important for communicating with colleagues since I have to try to decipher emails all the time. Some people have an extreme lack of the writing "skills".


RE: Seems legit..
By bsd228 on 11/27/2012 4:05:25 PM , Rating: 2
> You must have missed the part where he said, "One, in a "write directions" paper". He would have gotten an F if he turned in an Intel vs AMD paper since that wasn't the assignment

hmm, I guess so. I have no idea what such a paper is, or why it would be in an English Comp class. And if it was a "write directions" paper that means what it sounds like, why would she complain about the argument presented?


RE: Seems legit..
By inperfectdarkness on 11/26/2012 10:17:58 PM , Rating: 2
Do a youtube search for "Mike Rowe testifies before Congress".

There's a reason if I had to do it all over again, I'd become a tradesman.


RE: Seems legit..
By V-Money on 11/26/2012 11:17:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
From my experience there is an abundance of incoming freshman enrolling in STEM programs at universities. If half of these kids finished with degree we wouldn't have a shortage. Unfortunately for these wide eyed freshman their high school education fails them so miserably they are not even REMOTELY prepared for a STEM curriculum. The most intelligent students pass and move on while the vast majority drop out (of the program) within a SINGLE semester.


There are lots of problems with out school system these days. Case and point, I was starting to get a science degree after getting out of the Navy as a nuclear qualified electrician, they (California UC/CSU campuses) gave me 3 credits towards PE for boot camp...WTF

I tried to do it but I eventually changed my degree path because it was so f***ing easy that it was driving me out of my mind. I was taking Biology w/lab, Chemistry w/lab, Physics w/lab, and Calculus at the same time and all it did was piss me off at how much time I was wasting learning things I already knew. Worst part is it would have taken me more than 5 years just to get my Bachelors because of all the budget cuts and BS requirements. My schedule was insane and it took up all of my time for no reason.

Now I'm getting a BA in Accounting taking 18 credits (mostly online) a semester with 47 credits transferred. I spend 3 hours in class a week and about 8 a week on homework and I will have a degree in just over a year. It's not really what I wanted, but something about going from serving onboard the submarine NR-1 to ending up in entry level science classes made me want to cry.


RE: Seems legit..
By RufusM on 11/27/2012 11:12:20 AM , Rating: 2
You know most colleges let you test out of a number of general courses (especially science courses), although you typically do still need to pay for the general course credits.


RE: Seems legit..
By V-Money on 11/27/2012 12:24:33 PM , Rating: 2
Wow really, I never would have thought to look into ways around it...

So yeah, I was able to Clep out of English and start directly in to Chemistry and Calculus by taking the tests (as opposed to intro to chem and precalc) but that doesn't change the fact that when you spend 6 years studying and operating nuclear reactors which includes chemistry, physics, and math that taking these courses gets a little old. I am good at these subjects but I in no way like them (in fact I hate all three of them with just about every fiber of my being, especially math).

Funny enough there was no way around bio, I had to start with intro to bio. I tried arguing since I took anatomy w/lab during the summer and was top of the class with over 100% that I was obviously capable of handling the class. They wouldn't budge. I actually do enjoy Bio though so it wasn't as bad.


RE: Seems legit..
By deksman2 on 11/27/2012 7:28:11 AM , Rating: 2
The problem indeed lies in the education system, but that's not the only issue.
We live in a world where most of the science/engineering type jobs are looked at as something 'hard'.

People's interests and desires are shaped by the culture/environment they live in.

On top of that, the educational system itself is idiotic.
Its based on repetition, competition and classes are NOT engaging to students in any capacity.
It doesn't expose children and grown-ups alike to relevant general education.
It doesn't encourage problem solving or critical thinking.

Education is industrialized, meaning that they are testing how good you are at following orders and then specifically train you to do a job and 'be productive for the purpose of economy and keeping the flow of money'.

It is accurate to say that you cannot force kids to become engineers, scientists and mathematicians...
BUT, we don't live in an environment/society that makes such classes interesting in the first place, or desirable.

People learn best when they have an active interest in something, but even that won't do you any good if you create an environment that SUCKS out all the joy out of doing it and forces you to look at it as a job.

First off, monetary incentive and competition fail miserably to entice creativity and problem solving (this much is evident from science alone).

We live in a day and age where we had for decades the ability to automate 75% of the global workforce.

We long surpassed the level of technology (over 100 years ago) where the mentality that 'you need to work in order to live or do anything else' applies.
We have had (and still do) ample supply of resources on landfills that could have been converted into SUPERIOR synthetic materials in such an abundance to provide the necessary needs and numerous wants, several times over for each person on the planet and industry at large (since the late 19th century no less).

Relevant general education.
Its practically non-existent. Because if people were exposed to this at a very young age, they would have general information at their fingertips in practically all subjects relating to man, and they would be able to govern themselves (no need for governments, politicians or people in positions of power) and they would be much less prone to being manipulated and used by others.

There is a method called 'gamification of life' which essentially entails learning through game like capacity.
Khan Academy is actually very similar to this.
No grades, no competition, etc.

There are plenty of taboos surrounding what children should be exposed to at a certain age for fear of them being damaged by it.
Its a load of bull.
Children are like adults.
In order to know something, they need to learn about it, or experience it.
Children are also better at learning new things because their brains are at a formative stage where information is absorbed better.
In adults, similar results occur when high levels of interests into something comes into play.

We can have a global population of renaissance men and women.
There are no intricately 'stupid people.
The difference is merely in the amount of information they were exposed to, and how well they assimilated that information (and I need not tell you that each person learns in their own way).


RE: Seems legit..
By WinstonSmith on 11/27/2012 9:29:17 AM , Rating: 3
Professor of Theoretical Physics Michio Kaku Discusses H1B Visas and US Education System

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qty1xqvQBrA


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/28/2012 10:52:28 AM , Rating: 2
More importantly the state of US education is totally out of whack with supply and demand, and nobody is asking why.


RE: Seems legit..
By spamreader1 on 11/27/2012 11:10:32 AM , Rating: 2
I agree in part that the US public school system needs overhauled. We homeschool in large part due to the inadequacies.

I believe very large part of the educational problem centers around parenting.


RE: Seems legit..
By john3141 on 11/26/2012 7:47:40 PM , Rating: 2
Uh..my degree is in psychology. I've made great money since graduation from college.


RE: Seems legit..
By Donkey2008 on 11/27/2012 9:33:16 AM , Rating: 1
Good thing those pot smoking, unemployed kids are free to vote for a candidate that is against SOPA.


RE: Seems legit..
By chmilz on 11/26/2012 3:48:31 PM , Rating: 5
I'm in Alberta. I know welders making $250,000/yr because demand is so high. Yet our universities are overflowing with Education and Arts students who end up unemployed, and employers are bringing in Vietnamese and Filipino welders by the boatload to get the work done. These guys are coming from abject poverty to 6-figure incomes, to do work that's considered low-class in their country.

That's the conversation you'd have with the youths. It's been drilled into their heads that they'll take some stupid program and make great money, but haven't actually looked at what's in demand. There's always fields in demand, but youth aren't paying attention to that.

You thought I was suggesting kids are dumb. That's why you're part of the problem.


RE: Seems legit..
By Jeffk464 on 11/26/2012 3:56:03 PM , Rating: 3
Yup, this concept really needs to be drilled into the heads of people going to college. Liberal arts degrees are barely worth the paper there printed on. If you want to turn your time and financial investment into something you need a solid major: engineering, nursing, medicine, engineering,etc.

Yes, I know I said engineering twice.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 3:59:25 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't matter anymore how much or how many engineers they require at his moment, truth is you're going to be sacked the moment they get a better deal, no matter how loyal, efficient, and profitable you are or will be.


RE: Seems legit..
By superstition on 11/26/2012 4:03:16 PM , Rating: 2
Stack ranking to the rescue!


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 4:33:44 PM , Rating: 2
But the real loss of reality is when a boss who tosses employees out the door like spitballs becomes all indignant if one quits, often wondering where's the loyalty?

Management created this climate, they need to live with the results.


RE: Seems legit..
By StanO360 on 11/26/2012 5:02:51 PM , Rating: 2
And the employee will quit and run to another company as soon as he gets a better offer? So what's your point? Actually the employer has more to lose than the employee, they invest in training for the employee and it's costly to find new ones.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/12, Rating: 0
RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/12, Rating: -1
RE: Seems legit..
By FITCamaro on 11/27/2012 7:02:34 AM , Rating: 2
Few people are willing to take a better job? Either in atmosphere, work, or pay? Talk about living in fog.

About the only time that holds true is for going from stable employment to short term work. I could be making $60-75/hr right now in Arizona. But the work isn't doing what I want to do.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 11:01:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Few people are willing to take a better job? Either in atmosphere, work, or pay? Talk about living in fog.


Well well, if I'm living in a fog then you certainly created it, since your summation doesn't even come close to what I actually said. You do realize reading comprehension courses are available even in your neck of the woods. Or perhaps Faux News is allowing you to work from home and you've mastered their tasks?

A prime example of a successful indoctrination. Completely oblivious to anything he doesn't want to see. Mission accomplished.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 11:12:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
About the only time that holds true is for going from stable employment to short term work.

That's how people view all of IT, with good reason.


RE: Seems legit..
By chmilz on 11/26/2012 5:17:45 PM , Rating: 2
Or... skip college (and ridiculous American tuition fees) and get a trade instead. If you can lay brick and don't have a raging coke habit, you'll probably make a million before everyone else you know.


RE: Seems legit..
By titanmiller on 11/26/2012 8:49:49 PM , Rating: 3
The lack of skilled labor is a huge issue in America right now due to the preconceived notion that these jobs are somehow undesirable. Mike Rowe (of the TV show Dirty Jobs) is a leading proponent of trade work and the importance of pushing skilled labor jobs/tech schools to kids in lieu of college. Some kids are destined for college while others aren't. This is fine. We just need to stop pushing kids to college who aren't cut out for it.

Personally, I enjoy seeing high school educated plumbers/welders/carpenters making 2-3x what some college educated people make.


RE: Seems legit..
By p05esto on 11/26/2012 5:19:22 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that kids are mostly lazy, spoiled and unmotivated these days. And when I say kids I mean 18-25. No one wants to get their hands dirty, no one wants to really learn and gain skills, no one wants to work anymore. We're truly doomed as a society and I'm not kidding around, I believe we're heading to a major meltdown.


RE: Seems legit..
By ClownPuncher on 11/26/2012 3:37:51 PM , Rating: 1
That seems scientific.

There are plenty of qualified US citizens, though an influx of qualified foreign workers is also good for the country.


RE: Seems legit..
By Jeffk464 on 11/26/2012 3:58:05 PM , Rating: 2
Yup, its called brain drain. It makes a whole lot of sense to try to grab the top people from around the world. Only please make sure they don't have terrorist leanings first.


RE: Seems legit..
By StanO360 on 11/26/2012 5:04:55 PM , Rating: 2
These people are productive citizens, more the better, it's not a zero-sum game. They are inventing at universities and corporations, spinning off new companies.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 3:48:35 PM , Rating: 5
Chmilz,

Why bother with companies like MS? As soon as they find skilled labor overseas they will go there, H1-Bs won't even be required. But in the mean time companies frankly refuse to play by the standards set in real capitalism - supply and demand.

Alcoa is having trouble finding skilled labor in a recent 60 Minutes story. They expected people with BS degrees to work for $12/hour. Frankly I started with a 2 year degree working for $6/hr, but that was in the late 70's. Try adjusting $6/hr over 35 years of inflation, it's a lot more than $12. Gas was under $1 a gallon, and with just a 2 year degree.

Employers want it all they want it immediately, even the ones that can afford to train their people. Doesn't work that way. You simply get more applicants that lie on their resumes.

Years ago I saw employers that wanted 5 years of dot net experience when dot net hadn't even been around for 5 years.

Truth is young people today are responding in a very normal fashion to the ways their parents and other elders have been screwed over. Perhaps they know all too well this definition of insanity.

quote:
What if I told you insane was working fifty hours a week in some office for fifty years at the end of which they tell you to piss off; ending up in some retirement village hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time? Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118880/quotes


RE: Seems legit..
By Ammohunt on 11/26/12, Rating: 0
RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/12, Rating: 0
RE: Seems legit..
By dgingerich on 11/26/2012 7:03:35 PM , Rating: 2
I prefer the finglonger.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 7:12:09 PM , Rating: 2
That does exceed his snub nosed by a long shot.


RE: Seems legit..
By Trisped on 11/26/2012 9:42:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Next time you run into some youths, converse with them for a minute. If it takes you more than that minute to discover why MS (and thousands of other companies) need to import skilled workers, you're part of the problem.
The fact is that there is no reason for youth to want to be engineers. The work is mentally hard and requires experience and training. So what those who achieve this higher mental state get for their hard work? They get about as much as the typical office worker for pushing paper all day.

If you want smart, hard working, intelligent, positive, and trustworthy workers you have to pay them more and treat them better then the uneducated, lazy, dumb, negative, untrustworthy works. You also have to get the word out so people know that they can make a decent living doing software rather then being a lawyer, doctor, raper, or TV/movie star.

The fact is Microsoft does not want more workers, they want more cheep workers.


RE: Seems legit..
By TSS on 11/27/2012 9:49:26 AM , Rating: 3
Well then the problem, after reading this entire thread, is quite obvious.

America has become so greedy, it no longer has any idea of what value actually is.

Engineers getting as much as paper pushers? Student loan debt above $1 trillion? $250,000 a year welders? programmers with a degree that cannot do a fizzbuzz test? nevermind what i know myself of the fiscal cliff and government spending....

So it becomes clear, the empire has fallen. All that's left now is for washington to get sacked (not fired, i mean as in the sacking of rome), only this time it'll be by bankers rather then barbarians.


RE: Seems legit..
By Florinator on 11/26/2012 3:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
Who would you like to retrain to be a nerdy software engineer? The assembly line worker laid off from Boeing?

Microsoft doesn't pay as well as Amazon, Facebook and Google (which, in the case of the last two, opened offices in Seattle just so they can poach people from Microsoft), but to claim that Microsoft pays half the industry average is ludicrous.


RE: Seems legit..
By FITCamaro on 11/26/2012 8:25:50 PM , Rating: 2
A buddy of mine works for Microsoft making over $100k a year. Granted in California but still damn respectable.

Yeah they pay peanuts.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 8:52:34 PM , Rating: 2
Apparently you are clueless about cost living in CA or more likely you only consider the high costs and taxes when it suits your argument.

A model of objectivity you are.


RE: Seems legit..
By FITCamaro on 11/27/2012 6:59:07 AM , Rating: 2
I'm well aware of the costs of living in California. About $120k a year is still plenty to live on there. Maybe not buy a home. But he's also still young and hasn't moved up yet. Nor does he want to since he plans to get his doctorate in AI.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 11:16:44 AM , Rating: 2
Is he in CA where tax payers fund his education instead of standing on his own 2 feet? Pick and choose conservatism? Or simply master of opportunity?


RE: Seems legit..
By Jeffk464 on 11/26/2012 3:48:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I mean, why spend that money training individuals and boosting the strength of our country's workforce and intellect when you can just grab them from across the border and take advantage of them by paying only half as much?


Pretty sure they aren't coming from across the border, they are coming from overseas.


RE: Seems legit..
By heerohawwah on 11/26/2012 10:19:56 PM , Rating: 4
I'm Canadian, a control system engineer for industrial equipment like turbines, compressors, generators. The last major project I worked on was in Texas and completed last year. A full refurb and retrofit of a major facility, (which i won't say which one so people don't get mad) The American oil company, lead by american managers, intentionally went outside the US and put the company I worked for incharge of the project. A multi-million dollar project. Why did they do that? And why did they specifically ask for outside help? They literally said to our face; that the local help wasn't any good. I found that hard to believe, but when I got down there it was obvious that they were right. In the entire facility, 100's of workers only 1 handful knew what they were doing, and the vast majority of local contractors were just as incompetent. It took major effort just to find a local person who actually cared about the work they were doing. We did hire alot of local trades to do construction, which the American managers were upset about and it did cost alot... mostly in terms of the canadian boys re-wiring all the Americans work because they didn't know how to read electrical drawings. In the end it was our Canadian engineering which took a facility that was flaring nearly every day, wasting thousands of $ every minute, and brought them down to less than 1 flaring event a year. The local towns people actually thought the plant shutdown because the flaring had stopped. I wouldn't have believed the local help was so bad at maintence, at engineering or even the trades had I not been state side and seen it first had...along with the environmental impact they were causing.
The facility had a full time engineer and the entire year we work there he did only 1 thing, he made new signs to mark a few of the H2S heads... I don't think the problem is that companys going outside to get workers, its cultural problem or education system which is creating an un-employable workforce.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/28/2012 10:55:32 AM , Rating: 2
Your scenario is also an example of a failure of supply and demand. Nobody's asking why.


RE: Seems legit..
By RamarC on 11/27/2012 3:05:41 PM , Rating: 2
One point that's often overlooked is that US employees often aren't willing to go where the job is but non-US contractors generally don't care where the location is since anywhere in the US is far from home. Puget Sound may be a great place, but it's not on my top 10 list of places I'd like to relocate to.


RE: Seems legit..
By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 3:49:17 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sure just as many foreigners are not willing to relocate extreme distances just for a job, but because their populations are so much larger it may only seem like more of them are willing to relocate. The idea of rarely seeing family is not appealing to everyone.


By Florinator on 11/26/2012 3:35:26 PM , Rating: 2
Do you also think Men in Black is a documentary?


By Flunk on 11/26/2012 3:52:25 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't everyone?

Also, 9/11 was a hoax, aliens live at Area 51 and the new one Ancient Aliens!


By Ammohunt on 11/26/2012 4:44:07 PM , Rating: 2
You mean the Anunnaki?


By superstition on 11/26/2012 4:01:57 PM , Rating: 5
Corporations and government never have anything to do with each other.

Nothing at all.

No one ever conspires or colludes. No one ever strategizes. Politicians don't get any money from anyone but regular individuals. They craft every piece of legislation out of the goodness of their hearts!

It's all tea and crumpets by the telly, with little birds fluttering and chirping next to painted tulips.


By StanO360 on 11/26/2012 5:11:34 PM , Rating: 1
Of course they do, but not as much as you think. And why shouldn't they? They are integral to the economy! But most would much rather have the government be LESS involved with them. You see anecdotes and generalize them.


By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 5:31:33 PM , Rating: 3
Not great at spotting satire, are you?


By danjw1 on 11/26/2012 4:03:16 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, Washington has an 8.2% unemployment rate, so why not train some of them to work for them? Why, because Americans expect higher pay then Indian and Chinese. Microsoft figures it is cheaper in the long run to buy off the government that actually hire Americans. What a load.


By superstition on 11/26/2012 4:10:14 PM , Rating: 2
When is the government not bought off?

In fact, our government constitutes the phrase bought off.

Welcome to plutocracy, with weakening populist trimmings.


By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 4:20:44 PM , Rating: 3
And many political extremists are fighting to return things to the way they were:

No government regulation, no liability, just like the late 19th and early 20th century.

Were companies more profitable back then? Sure, anybody who's not held accountable for any of their deeds or actions makes more money. Just ask Al Capone or a Mexican drug cartel. Are there a group of people trying desperately to punch loopholes into the Dodd Frank reform? And at who's expense? Same as always, the middle class.

Now ask yourself which political party most of these "patriots" belong to.


By StanO360 on 11/26/2012 5:15:05 PM , Rating: 2
Are you joking? Who is stopping anyone from going to school and getting their degree in a science? We as a society have become fat, it's easier to work for the government, and in California often more lucrative. The unemployed are flocking to college now, just not in sciences!

I've tried to push my children to sciences and math. But it's hard to go against the societal flow (not impossible,just hard).


By StanO360 on 11/26/2012 5:08:40 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, but with Engineering unemployment (effectively full employment) you are wrong. The jobs may not be where you want or doing exactly what you want, but they're out there.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-scho...


By dgingerich on 11/26/2012 7:18:51 PM , Rating: 2
You really don't get it, do you?

Corporations are groups of people that work toward a common goal, whether that is producing products for a specific market, providing services for others, or connecting one part of a market to another. That's what they do. They are people, in every position from top to bottom. There aren't any aliens or androids running them.

Before you blame rich people, know that most of the upper level corporate management are hard working people, who put in 50+ hours, sometimes up to 70 hours, per week to keep the company running right. Sure, many make huge profits, and many go bust taking huge losses. They work hard, very hard, for the money they get. I have met a couple corporate executives who weren't worth the pay the lowest person on the ladder gets, but those are pretty few and far between. Nobody stays at a company for long if they aren't worth their pay.

Could it be that you are just bitter that you weren't worth your pay and got booted from a few corporations?


By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 8:58:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
people that work toward a common goal,

That description fits:

A union
A drug cartel
A board of directors
A dictators family
Shareholders
A motorcycle gang
OPEC

Shall I continue? You pretty much assigned a fancy label for a mob. Amazing any true libertarian would put up with it. Not saying you are, just saying in general.


By Wererat on 11/27/2012 12:53:33 PM , Rating: 2
"Corporations are groups of people that work toward a common goal, whether that is producing products for a specific market, providing services for others, or connecting one part of a market to another. That's what they do."

You're describing a free market; your problem is that you assume we're running one.

The proposal MS makes here is entirely counter to a free market; they propose that, instead of allowing supply and demand of labor to set wages, that the government intervene to import supply so that wages become what MS likes. Further, they openly propose to bribe the government to do so (usually this is at least disguised as a campaign contribution).


By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 2:39:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The proposal MS makes here is entirely counter to a free market

quote:
His eyes open!

STNG


both ways
By talikarni on 11/26/2012 3:31:01 PM , Rating: 2
Really it goes several ways...
They make the problem worse by not hiring Americans, but at the same time Americans are increasingly sticking with the job they have, just to hope they keep it.

quote:
...Microsoft is just looking for cheap labor.


Considering the REAL jobless rate is closer to 20%, there should not be any problem finding American workers, Microsoft just doesn't want to pay the rate, so yes they are just looking for cheap labor.




RE: both ways
By Argon18 on 11/26/2012 3:44:51 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that most of those jobless people come from manufacturing. Notice how *absolutely everything* in your local Wall Mart or Best Buy says "made in china" on it?

The people making noise about lack of middle class jobs are same people loading up their shopping card with Made in China junk every time they head to the store. They brought about their own demise.

A business cannot retrain a manufacturing factory worker to become a C++ programmer. That's a skill that takes a university degree and years of experience to develop.


RE: both ways
By superstition on 11/26/2012 3:58:46 PM , Rating: 2
Politicians/businessmen colluded to make sure Walmart and the made-in-China model would take over.

You can thank them. The little people really don't have as much say in things as you think.

Globalized business is globalized. Multinational corporations and the people who run them don't have any loyalty to the US. They can degrade product quality and use stealth monopolization to artificially inflate prices. They slash wages and make everyone credit slaves.


RE: both ways
By Jeffk464 on 11/26/2012 4:01:50 PM , Rating: 2
A lot of jobs that used to qualify you for the middle class now qualify you for the lower class. The fact is for your average worker things are just getting worse.


RE: both ways
By StanO360 on 11/26/2012 5:21:45 PM , Rating: 2
FYI China represents 19% of imports. Canada is second at 14%.


RE: both ways
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 5:29:37 PM , Rating: 2
He clearly stated Walmart, who's founder is probably spinning in his grave, given he didn't have a store flooded with Chinese goods.


RE: both ways
By john80224 on 11/26/2012 5:39:37 PM , Rating: 2
I can't really say how many or few of the however many million unemployed are suited to the fields in question. But I find it easy to believe the number is much higher than zero.

There have been too many stories of companies tossing the qualified out to replace with younger, indentured servants; offshoring companies allowed to staff in the US almost exclusively with foreign talent; and locals being discriminated against for being from the wrong country--the US. Is every such story true? Of course not. But the volume of them, and the magnitude of what can be proven is enough for me to remain leery of the "can't find" argument.


RE: both ways
By Ammohunt on 11/26/2012 5:38:29 PM , Rating: 2
So the conspiracy theory is that they bring in Indians and chinese into America via H1B so they can pay them less than Americans? Why bother when they can setup an office in the host country and pay them there?

I work in IT and have worked with many Indians and have found they are highly competent skilled individuals that are compensated for their skills no different than their American counterparts mainly because Companies have pay scales based on the job description not nationality read illegality. I am not so insecure as to think i can't compete on equal footing with these people for the same jobs; i work my ass of to keep current and marketable.


RE: both ways
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 5:51:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So the conspiracy theory is that they bring in Indians and chinese into America via H1B so they can pay them less than Americans? Why bother when they can setup an office in the host country and pay them there?

1. Time zones cause issues for those in charge.

2. You can keep an eye on them better, same reason people who can work from home still have to go to the office.

As for the rest of your babble, have you met an H1B that felt they were actually paid the prevailing rate?

I think your penis extender is running out of ammo.


RE: both ways
By Ammohunt on 11/26/2012 6:24:54 PM , Rating: 2
What are you carrying on about? You have a need to project your insecurities related to your genitalia(don't care to know); i get it but at least attempt a reasoned argument rather then spewing nonsensical psycho babble. Take your time think a little(i know its tough for you but you can do it!) then post clear and concise.

Like i said..the Indians i have worked with were compensated at or above competitive rates for the position they were filling. its a myth that they are not; its called discrimination every heard of that in your reality bubble? I would think you would since with people like you accusations of racism are the first word out of your mouth when differences of opinion surfaces.


RE: both ways
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 7:17:12 PM , Rating: 2
The only real fair play would be to let as many people in to work as demand requires. They don't want that, you never see them ask for that. I can probably line up 100 H1Bs would have quit being so for more money than the few you claim to know.

Your reality bubble? Yeah it's a bubble alright.


RE: both ways
By 91TTZ on 11/26/2012 9:07:20 PM , Rating: 2
I can't take you seriously when you write like you're in grade school. Try using some punctuation and maybe I'll think that I'm not reading a 13 year old kid's posts.


RE: both ways
By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 1:20:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You have a need to project your insecurities related to your genitalia

Oh God, you're so obtuse. It's a metaphor. You could obviously benefit from the same reading comprehension classes as the other guy.

You wear your gun status on your sleeve, then get indignant that somebody addresses it. That's called hypocrisy,which in your shallow intellect is probably more techo babble. So be it.


RE: both ways
By Ammohunt on 11/27/2012 5:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
Gun status? Ah you think my handle has something to do with firearm ownership in relation to a need to feel "powerful" as an extension of my penis. That's something either a man hating woman or an insecure male would say since both suffer from base penis envy. Very wrong,Try harder...


Microsoft is correct
By Reflex on 11/26/2012 7:13:39 PM , Rating: 2
I currently do interviews for a top five tech company and all I can say is MS is correct. I have done 56 phone screens and in person interviews over the past 11 months. I do at least one per week, sometimes several when a team is on a hiring binge. The quality of candidates from the US is very low on average. Only a handful of the screens ever makes it to an interview, and only a fraction of them are hired. Of that group, only one was a US citizen.

Given that we legally have to pay H1B's the same as anyone else, and that those who make the offers are a seperate group from those who handle hiring(ie: when they make the offer they have no idea if the person is H1B or US citizen) there is no advantage to hiring H1B's. In fact they tend to be more expensive, both from a paperwork and often a relocation point of view since we pay for those things.

I'd love to hire more americans, but quite frankly they often do not meet the quality bar. I've met a LOT of people who tell me how they deserve to be full time(rather than the more typical contract) but when I start going over methodology, scaling or approach questions they simply do not measure up to what I am seeing out of India and China grad students.

BTW, any team I've worked with that has had offshore workers has only expanded their stateside workforce. Offshoring is most commonly used for the advantage of a 24 hour work cycle, not cheaper labor. Management overhead tends to be higher on offshore teams, and really labor just isn't a huge factor when you are producing global products. I know on one team our analysis was that offshore workers cost us more per head overall due to additional tools, training and management requirements, but it was outweighed in the end by having dev/test cycles that could be run 24 hours.

It certainly is a huge factor in what has become 6-9 month product cycles in some sectors, such as phones and tablets. Those cycles are not possible with a traditional single nation development team.

BTW, one interview question I ask candidates is what to do when they have requested ten weeks for a QA process but they are given only two weeks. One of the expected answers is to utilize offshore teams. I typically follow up by asking how it is an advantage. Cost is frequently mentioned, but when I point out that it really ends up costing us about the same only a few realize the 24 hour cycle advantage, which is huge. It amazes me how few people seem to understand that is the main draw. It would not suprise me to eventually see a three team mode to get three 8 hour shifts.




RE: Microsoft is correct
By bsd228 on 11/26/2012 9:07:04 PM , Rating: 2
> I currently do interviews for a top five tech company and all I can say is MS is correct. I have done 56 phone screens and in person interviews over the past 11 months. I do at least one per week, sometimes several when a team is on a hiring binge. The quality of candidates from the US is very low on average. Only a handful of the screens ever makes it to an interview, and only a fraction of them are hired. Of that group, only one was a US citizen.

"top five," eh? So basically we're talking about an interview process that is a series of irrelevant questions, or massive dick waving by the interviewers, and any one person can nix the process. My company had to finally send out a directive that the limit for interviews is 5 because we were thinning the herd to extinction.

Companies have decided they want turnkey employees, who have x+1 years experience in a technology that has been around for x years, and when they don't find that, they cry and run for an H1-B. Past work experience matters not, even though your own words describe process issues, not technology ones.

It's also true that with the latest web boom cycle, the available talent level is down - the better people are as a rule employed and need to lured away from an existing job. But MS doesn't have much chance getting me to interview...and neither does Google.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By Reflex on 11/26/2012 9:50:21 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, not at all. In fact our loops are exactly 5 people, each with a competency they have to examine. The questions are required to be real world, and we are to examine how they approach the problem as much as the answers they come up with. Only two people in that loop can invalidate a candidate(hiring manager and one other who's from outside the team), everyone else is advisory. We hire people who fail competencies all the time if they raise the bar in other areas. The failed interview simply becomes a piece of info for the manager to know where the candidate's development needed areas will be.

We also have a policy where almost anyone can get a phone screen, and a good chunk of my team comes frmo 'unconventional' backgrounds(ie: not degreed). Including myself.

At the end of the day what we are looking for most is demonstrated ability to learn quickly and adapt to ambiguous situations where requirements are not always clearly defined ahead of time. Because that is reality in today's tech industry. Those who can demonstrate an understanding of scaling and long term support win major bonus points, although they typically are the ones who come from other major companies.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By 91TTZ on 11/26/2012 9:17:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I typically follow up by asking how it is an advantage. Cost is frequently mentioned, but when I point out that it really ends up costing us about the same only a few realize the 24 hour cycle advantage, which is huge.


How is it an advantage to have 10 people working during day and then 10 working overnight versus having 20 people working during the day? If you're going to measure productivity by man hours then I'd think that it wouldn't matter what time they worked, as long as they were getting work done.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By Reflex on 11/26/2012 9:57:14 PM , Rating: 2
By that token if you have the budget, why not 20 here and 20 there?

The reality is that not all tasks are easily parallelizable, that simply throwing more people at it does not get through the work any faster. Having tasks that can be sequentially picked up by a peer in another time zone permits faster completion than simply adding more people at the main site. Furthermore, development teams are just as spread out, resulting in management, development and QA all working in different time zones, having some elements of each crossing over is advantageous to the project.

Right now I can start on a task, and if blocked hand it off to developers. In the meantime I can move on to another task, and whenever development unblocks the first issue a counterpart in Bangalore, Beijing, etc can pick up the work and give immediate feedback to that dev, regardless of whether or not the dev and I's schedule matches each other.

One thing that we've really gotten into here is the idea of 'throughput' and 'keeping the pipelines full' rather than trying to rigidly assess up front time requirements and assuming everything will be finished on that schedule. Reality is some things will be done faster than expected and vice versa, having a way to easily hand tasks off to counterparts or have them followed up on by counterparts keeps the pipeline full.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By drycrust3 on 11/27/2012 10:23:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right now I can start on a task, and if blocked hand it off to developers. In the meantime I can move on to another task, and whenever development unblocks the first issue a counterpart in Bangalore, Beijing, etc can pick up the work and give immediate feedback to that dev, regardless of whether or not the dev and I's schedule matches each other.

You've given someone two weeks to meet a Quality Assurance standard that is supposed to take 10 weeks to complete, and you want them to ring up people in another country, who half understand English, who you don't know how trustworthy they are with confidential documents, and who you have no legal recourse if they fail to do what you want, and you want the person to say "I'd ring up some developers I saw on the internet who live in Nigeria, and I asked them if they would do a QA development work for $X and they said they would if we give them the company bank account details"? Really? Is that what you want them to say?
I must remember that for the next job I apply for.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By Reflex on 11/27/2012 12:36:25 PM , Rating: 2
1) Often their english is better than ours. This is especially true in India.

2) These people are employees of the company as well, not contractors. The risks with them are the same as the risks with me or any state side employee.

3) Why should I trust a US based employee any more than an Indian or Chinese based employee? I'm not racist, and there is no evidence that US Citizens are less likely to be involved in industrial espionage than anyone else. In fact I saw that first hand at MS back in 2009. Never seen employees dissapear so fast from company records after the FBI swooped in.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By bsd228 on 11/27/2012 4:13:14 PM , Rating: 2
> 1) Often their english is better than ours. This is especially true in India.

Where on earth are you making this comparison? The norm is that their English is very difficult to hear at all. A year or two back Wipro talked about the fact that only 3% of their applicants are sufficiently qualified to be used for an outsourcing contract.

Same problem exists in China. These languages have so little in common with English - it is very difficult to learn to speak the other, particularly in a non native place.

The H1-Bs tend to be the cream of the very large crop.

> 3) Why should I trust a US based employee any more than an Indian or Chinese based employee?

At a superficial level, you can do a background check on a US based employee. You really can't in China or India.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By Reflex on 11/27/2012 6:28:01 PM , Rating: 2
1) I have more trouble with southern or new york accents than Indian accents. Even the British are often more difficult to understand. My suggestion is that you spend more time with foreigners so that accents are not such a challenge. Its an international business, even without outsourcing, not being able to understand those you will be doing business with only limits yourself and your company.

3) There are services for this, even overseas, if you have such concerns. Furthermore, corruption often has little to do with a person's background and more to do with what the employee is being offered at the time(and thier personal ethics around it). What do I care if a US employee has not *been caught* doing something illegal regarding thier employer? What I care is if they are able to resist temptation when they work with me. The vast majority of this type of espionage goes undetected in the first place, and I've seen nothing that indicates that foreign workers are any more prone to it than local employees.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By drycrust3 on 11/27/2012 9:07:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
2) These people are employees of the company as well, not contractors.

They are? So one moment you're asking a job applicant to say how they would rush through a 10 week Quality and Assurance program in two weeks, then suddenly it turns out the answer the person being interviewed should have known, but "somehow" the information wasn't passed to them, is there's a ton of staff available hiding in some back room who have nothing to do and will willingly rush to the aid of our 10 week program.
This is sounding more and more like the plot to a B grade movie.


RE: Microsoft is correct
By Reflex on 11/28/2012 4:21:23 PM , Rating: 2
You just failed. ;)

Nope, thats not how it works. When a project is scoped at, say, ten weeks, and you get cut down to, say, two weeks, there are a number of things that can be done. One thing I look for is push back and a discussion of tradeoffs. The two week scenario is an extreme example, what I want is solutions from them that do not involve leaving quality behind.

They can negotiate with other teams to 'borrow' headcount in exchange for loaning people to those teams after their project is complete. They can use offshore resources to go to a 24 hour cycle, since after all I specified the time frame as the critical factor, not the headcount. They can leverage automation to a greater degree, prioritize test cases, focus on end to end user scenarios, make a case for dropping non-core features, etc etc.

There is no single correct answer, I am putting a problem in front of them, an extreme example of a very very common situation in modern software development(too much to do, tight schedule), and seeing how they will handle it. The worst responses are to either claim everyone will simply work extreme overtime through it(recipe for QA disaster), or simply drop testing that does not fit.


Ah, the fake "skills shortage"
By 91TTZ on 11/26/2012 4:14:08 PM , Rating: 2
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/the-fa...

"Whenever you see some business person quoted complaining about how he or she can’t find workers with the necessary skills, ask what wage they’re offering. Almost always, it turns out that what said business person really wants is highly (and expensively) educated workers at a manual-labor wage. No wonder they come up short."

I'm willing to bet that when you look at those H1B Visa employees and what they make, you'll find that they are overqualified for that pay rate. I've seen job ads where they basically want a $100,000 employee.... for $45,000. Since the "qualified" people will simply work at a place that's willing to pay them the free-market price, that leaves companies like Microsoft crying about a shortage of skilled workers. There's no shortage of skilled workers, there's just a shortage of skilled workers willing to work for the wage that Microsoft is willing to pay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-...




By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 4:30:04 PM , Rating: 2
Krugman pretty much destroys all the economic myths they are constantly spewed forth onto the public by the same group of highly biased propagandists (not fair not balanced). The Comedy Channel is mere icing on the cake.

You would think IT shops would be centrally located in places where IT people can be found in large quantities, but no IT shops often pop up in the worst economic areas, with equally low pay for the reasons you and Krugman mention, and they do get some people who choose to stay local and be exploited rather than move.

In a similar fashion you often see 2 types of car dealerships. Those that bargain, reduce their net gain per car, but sell far more cars, as opposed to the dealer that maximizes the profit per car but loses many deals. The former makes a lot of money, the latter thinks they succeed, when in fact they bite off their nose to spite their face, and they are oblivious of that fact as well.


RE: Ah, the fake "skills shortage"
By MadMan007 on 11/26/2012 9:34:09 PM , Rating: 2
I enjoyed the second article very much. Thanks.


RE: Ah, the fake "skills shortage"
By Florinator on 11/27/2012 11:08:21 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I've seen job ads where they basically want a $100,000 employee.... for $45,000.


I call bullshit on that...


By YashBudini on 11/27/2012 1:26:14 PM , Rating: 2
I see them all the time, mostly in places that actually can get away with it. Ads like this don't survive long in a true capitalistic market where supply and demand are in effect.


RE: Ah, the fake "skills shortage"
By john80224 on 11/28/2012 9:21:28 AM , Rating: 2
I can't say about the adds but I've seen cases in LCA data from 2009 where there were programmers in California getting paid in the low 30's--20,000 less than national average for fresh out of college computer science.


By rocketbuddha on 11/28/2012 6:15:12 PM , Rating: 2
There is a big difference between Krugman's article and this.
Krugman is about Manufacturing and he is right on the mark.

This article is about H1B which right now is mostly software DDQIS (Design, Development, Quality Assuarance, Implementation Support). Not the same.

Basically since the US is a demand->supply society where in by bringing more supply you can reduce the costs it can potentially decrement the wages.

But based on my experience and observation, I have generally found with respect to IT across various companies, if you have the right talent and MORE IMPORTANTLY the RIGHT TECHNOLOGY AREA you can command very high billing rates.
For example in areas like ERP, Datawarehousing/Datamining people command far higher rates compared to what I can command at equivalent work designation. And in my team there are employees (US Based), Contractors (US based), H1B contractors as well as off shore contractors. It is a mix and match of resources with different skill sets.
Now companies would decide to outsource certain kinds of work to offshore. The various clients/employers I have worked normally keep the strategic development and products in-house or let me say in-location [aka employees] and more of support and maintenance work to off-shore contracting.



This is hogwash...
By Cannyone on 11/26/2012 4:10:47 PM , Rating: 2
There are plenty of "skilled Americans" but either they fall outside of the demographic target Microsoft has set or they don't want to work for Microsoft.




RE: This is hogwash...
By corduroygt on 11/26/2012 4:21:30 PM , Rating: 2
Why would they not want to work for Microsoft?


RE: This is hogwash...
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 4:38:30 PM , Rating: 2
The years of super growth and millionaire employees are gone. Now it's large cap company, with a higher than average tendency to replace you with cheap foreign labor.

Of course anybody can be let go at any time from any company, but you also have to realize, for every moment you or your employees are looking over your shoulders that's one more moment you are not moving forward. And it's a huge source of stress, you discover that when your company lets you go and you aren't upset, you're relieved.


RE: This is hogwash...
By Florinator on 11/26/2012 6:52:06 PM , Rating: 2
Where are these skilled Americans who are out of job and DON'T WANT to work for Microsoft? I for one couldn't afford to be picky if I were unemployed...


By DaveLessnau on 11/26/2012 7:34:13 PM , Rating: 2
My son, who is a programmer, would love to work for Microsoft. So, MS, give him a call, pay him your standard wage, and spend that $10,000 you want to spend for each H-1B visa on training him to meet your standards, and everyone's happy. Win-Win.




By Reflex on 11/26/2012 7:37:15 PM , Rating: 3
If your son can pass the interview process I doubt he would have a problem. I worked at MS for a decade, they love new talent. If he is fresh out of college, start with an internship, its a fast track to getting a full time position, and the internship pays well also.


Fair market wage
By Wererat on 11/26/2012 4:42:19 PM , Rating: 2
The problem isn't that there aren't enough skilled, smart Americans.

The problem is that smart Americans look at the way engineers generally and IT workers in particular are treated -- insane hours, poor advancement, discarded in favor of H1Bs &/or new grads -- and choose better career paths. I would never advise a smart kid to get a computer degree today.

H1B quotas only exacerbate the problem. The only solution is to pay people reasonably, stop treating their skills like insectoid specialization, and work them like human beings. Otherwise they'll continue to choose careers where those expectations are met.




RE: Fair market wage
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 7:20:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would never advise a smart kid to get a computer degree today.

Precisely.

quote:
H1B quotas only exacerbate the problem.

So did credit default swaps, but the bankers still love the instant gratification. Just like the bankers, these globals don't give a $h1t about anything expect their profits.


sure...
By superstition on 11/26/2012 3:56:07 PM , Rating: 2
This is the company that used the ridiculous stack ranking system to persecute talented and productive employees.

The company doesn't really care about attracting talent. It cares about cheap labor.

I call BS.




This says it all
By YashBudini on 11/26/2012 4:12:02 PM , Rating: 2
American attorneys working to keep Americans unemployed to promote more H1-Bs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA&feature...

Companies like MS never want open markets, where anyone could come and work here for the prevailing wage, they only want increases in the H1B quota system, which is suppose to pay a prevail wage, but the prevailing wage only has to exist in the mind of the employer. Yeah, good luck with that.




A start
By john80224 on 11/26/2012 5:13:41 PM , Rating: 2


Corrections:
"They can renew their visas every three years" The H-1b visa is three years and can be renewed once, then annually if already applied for a green card.

"Currently, the government offers 65,000 visas a year" There are 85,000 visas per year for corporations--20,000 reserved for graduate degrees--and unlimited for education and government (and some other non-profits, I think).

That out of the way, the basic principle has some merit. Directing the funds toward education is good. A recent study ranked the US education at 31st now. After nearly a quarter century of bringing over a significant chunk of supposedly "best and brightests" as we're so often told, it hasn't seemed to improve. Gee, maybe it is time to focus on building our own skills rather than just importing others'.

The fee itself needs to be at least annual, though. $10K for three years winds up as less than 2% of the total cost of the employee. I'm guessing the range of pay for any one of these positions is broader than $3300. As it stands, though, it's hardly a deterrent to overlooking locals, especially those not fresh out of college.

The last paragraph doesn't speak well of Microsoft's case. Sounds a bit like trying to fill with cheaper, inexperienced labor. It's conspicuous that the 1/4 of GC applications--presumably for employeess who have at least a couple years with MS--are still rated at entry level meaning essentially no prior experience at time of introduction and most of the rest aren't much higher.




How About Another Viewpoint?
By jcddude on 11/26/2012 5:42:13 PM , Rating: 2
I work for a company that is one of the largest in the US. The application I support is due for a full rewrite next year. How are we going to do it? Contract out to a company in India, of course!

If I were entering college right now, I'n not sure I would go into program development. Why waste the time, since any job I get would probably be off-shored?




Wages
By villageidiotintern on 11/27/2012 9:19:20 AM , Rating: 2
There are plenty of skilled Americans, they just command higher salaries and wages than companies are willing to pay.




Convienient...
By WinstonSmith on 11/27/2012 9:34:38 AM , Rating: 2
"More specifically, it (Microsoft) suggested that the government raise $500 million a year by tacking on an extra $10,000 fee for each newly created H-1B visa or $15,000 for each new green card"

A $10,000 or $15,000 that they, but not all startup competitors, are able to afford.




By Arsynic on 11/27/2012 10:17:37 AM , Rating: 2
..."having the ability to enjoy curry dishes, accept a meager wage and live in a small apartment with 6 other individuals of that same ilk."

They're right, many Americans do not foot the bill.




It's all about exploitation
By Beenthere on 11/26/12, Rating: 0
"A politician stumbles over himself... Then they pick it out. They edit it. He runs the clip, and then he makes a funny face, and the whole audience has a Pavlovian response." -- Joe Scarborough on John Stewart over Jim Cramer














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki