Print 48 comment(s) - last by YashBudini.. on Nov 11 at 2:12 PM

  (Source: F30Post)
They're due out in 2013 and 2014

BMW is due to release a slew of new turbo diesel engines in the United States throughout 2013 and 2014. 

Among those in the diesel lineup is the F30 3 Series sedan diesel, due out in the first half of 2013; the F31 3 Series touring, due out in the second half of 2013; the F10 5 Series diesel, due out in the third quarter of 2013; the X5d diesel, due out at the end of 2013; the 7 Series diesel, due in the first half of 2014, and the X3d diesel, due in the first half of 2014. 

According to F30Post, a 180 HP 4-cylinder engine may be assigned to 20d or 25d models while a 255 HP 6-cylinder engine may be assigned to 28d, 30d or 35d models. However, no official announcements have been made in that regard. 

The U.S. had some other exciting diesel-related announcements this year as well, such as Porsche's first diesel model for the U.S. (the 2013 Cayenne Diesel), and Mazda said it was bringing a diesel engine to the U.S. by 2014

Source: F30post

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choices are good, but need to be informed
By MadMan007 on 11/7/2012 1:39:02 AM , Rating: 3
I'm glad to see more choices coming to the automobile market. Diesel versus gasoline versus hybrid isn't a simple choice though.

Diesel mileage is better than gasoline, but it usually costs more. Right now the prices aren't too far apart but diesel has been high enough in the past that the mileage advantage is cancelled out by the price disadvantage. It does have other advantages in terms of mechanical longevity.

Hybrids have higher upfront cost but the lowest fuel costs long-term. There are questions about safety in rare incidents, as well as battery replacement costs in the very long term. I think diesel hybrids could be the best of both worlds.

I'm just afraid that many consumers won't understand these differences and do the calculations. I hope automakers educate them objectively without obfuscating facts and putting their own priorities first.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By Granseth on 11/7/2012 1:47:41 AM , Rating: 3
You have to consider how you drive too.
A hybrid is much better for city driving, but if you are driving without too much start/stop it would be best to get a diesel.

By Captain Orgazmo on 11/7/2012 3:49:36 AM , Rating: 4
Typically a diesel excels at, and easily beats hybrids in highway, combined city/highway driving, and even purely city driving without too many complete stops (like crawling freeway traffic).

Diesel engines not only benefit from the increased energy density of diesel fuel versus gasoline, but also from the fact that their designs are typically more efficient due to smaller displacement (with turbos), more torque and power available at lower rpms, higher compression ratios, direct injection, and lack of spark plugs.

I recently drove a diesel rental car in Europe, and was amazed to get nearly 65 MPG with very spirited driving. Despite the fact that fuel costs were more than double there, I spent less money on fuel than I would have driving my thirsty V8 over here.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By silverblue on 11/7/2012 7:50:59 AM , Rating: 2
If you don't mind me asking, which car did you rent? The more recent German/French diesels are very impressive.

By Captain Orgazmo on 11/8/2012 6:26:31 PM , Rating: 2
It was a Citroen C4. Very nice to drive too (except for the annoying gearbox... some kind of sequential manual with the flappy paddles, and an annoying auto start/stop system that you have to disable every time you start the car).

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By Mr Perfect on 11/7/2012 10:45:25 AM , Rating: 2
Was that US or Imperial gallons?

By Captain Orgazmo on 11/8/2012 6:27:33 PM , Rating: 2
US MPG, I converted from 1400km/50L. I think the number is about right.

By Captain Orgazmo on 11/8/2012 6:39:47 PM , Rating: 2
Also to consider, that number was from mainly highway driving, on very smooth roads, and the car had very low rolling resistance tires (combined with the smooth pavement, it was like driving in a parking garage... lots of tire squeal around corners, and the ABS going nuts trying to stop the car - quite a few sphincter clenching moments :)

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By fishman on 11/7/2012 7:49:20 AM , Rating: 2
It does have other advantages in terms of mechanical longevity.

I don't think that matters that much. A gas engine should last well over 200K miles. And at that point, you have plenty of expensive systems in both gas and diesel cars that can fail, like the transmission, AC, etc, that can be a large percentage of the cars remaining value.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By FITCamaro on 11/7/2012 8:25:43 AM , Rating: 2
All the more reason to get a manual. They don't fail. Just the clutch does.

By Ristogod on 11/7/2012 10:43:03 AM , Rating: 2
Tell that to the Synchros in my manual tranny.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By The Melon on 11/7/2012 11:20:06 AM , Rating: 3
It does matter, allot actually. Diesel engines have to be built to withstand far higher combustion pressures than gasoline engines do and they benefit from having lower a exhaust gas temperature.

Modern turbo diesel engines have between 16 and 18:1 compression ratios PLUS 20-25psi factory boost from the turbos. Gasoline on the other hand considers 12:1 high compression and 7-10psi on a turbo is the norm. You go much higher and you have a real hard time controlling pre-combustion on gasoline.

Ford designed and tested it's 6.7l Scorpion diesel to have a minimum of 250k service life under extreme conditions before internal rebuild. I would expect a real world average of 300-500k minimum.

It is not uncommon to see consumer level diesels with more than 500k on them.

By silverblue on 11/7/2012 1:11:43 PM , Rating: 3
Amusingly, at that point, the only thing left in any sort of decent state would be the engine.

By freedom4556 on 11/7/2012 1:58:11 PM , Rating: 2
like the transmission, AC, etc
Don't forget the exterior, interior, trim, and electronics. Just consider how many years it takes to get 250k+ miles on a car. Using the EPA's 15,000 / year figure, quarter million comes up in just under 17 years. Take a look around for rides from 1995 and see the shape they're in. Having recently bought a used car, mechanicals are often the last thing to go.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By Dr of crap on 11/7/2012 8:33:06 AM , Rating: 2
Yea I like MORE choices - but have you seen the price of diesel?
Just a few days ago gas was $3.29 and diesel was almost $4.

So any savings is gone.
Higher purchase price and higher fill ups, just to get a bit better mpg - not sure if you gain anything.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By FITCamaro on 11/7/2012 9:41:20 AM , Rating: 2
The difference here between premium and diesel is about $.10. So about $.40 more than regular.

By Mr Perfect on 11/7/2012 10:44:03 AM , Rating: 3
If BMW's engines are premium gasoline(and I'm guessing they are?), then that's the comparison to be making here. Diesel would have to win out in that comparison.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By Motoman on 11/7/2012 11:07:59 AM , Rating: 2
When I bought my brand-new diesel pickup truck in '03, diesel was considerably cheaper than gas.

Maybe someday it will be again. I believe the key issue is simply supply and demand...there's not as many refineries producing diesel to meet with demand, so the price stays inflated.

While I love my diesel truck, and the difference between that and a gas motor for doing actual work is amazing, I have become slightly conflicted about the fact that a given quantity of crude oil yields way less diesel than it does gas.

A barrel of crude will process through to about 19 gallons of gas, and 10 gallons of diesel. And then a whackload of other stuff, like heavier fuels/oils, shiznet that gets turned into cheap plastic tchachke, etc.

While I'm not exactly alarmist about our crude reserves, it seems relatively obvious that we need to make best use of every barrel of crude. So, to that end, the majority of cars kind of need to be gas instead of diesel.

Which is OK for me, really. I want my truck to be diesel, but if I ever save enough pennies to buy a Corvette, it had better have a large gas motor in it ;)

By Mint on 11/7/2012 1:03:02 PM , Rating: 2
I've posted this before, but I'll post it again if anyone is curious about the economics of diesel vs gas:

Wide adoption of diesel in the US would be pointless (not that I think you're implying that), and let developing countries (where tiny, cheap diesel engines are more important for productivity) and Europe balance out supply/demand to match the production ratio.

The cost benefit is a wash, CO2 (if you care) is worse, and while air pollution has vastly improved, diesel is still not nearly as clean as good gas engines.

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By Keeir on 11/7/2012 1:09:23 PM , Rating: 2
Yes and no.

A Barrel of crude can be distilled many many different ways. The majority of US refineries are actually tilted towards gasoline. I've read the yields for many different choices on refining, and its possible to distill very little gasoline from a barrel, provided you have a high demand for jet fuel.

Its gets fairly complex, but Diesel is still a slightly better per miles use of base energy (both crude oil and NG/Electricty/etc) than gasoline.

Eliminating gasoline cars (to the extend done in Europe) is counterproductive though....

RE: choices are good, but need to be informed
By silverblue on 11/7/2012 1:27:13 PM , Rating: 2
They're not exactly eliminating petrol cars over here in Europe. In fact, cleaner petrol engines have been rather popular recently. Throw in a turbo like Fiat did with the TwinAir, a tiny two-cylinder 875cc engine, and you end up with 85bhp and 150Nm of torque with a low 95g/km of CO2. It significantly outperforms the old 1.2 FIRE engines and uses less fuel whilst polluting less.

Seriously, for city and even some motorway driving, that's perfect for a small car. Some of the most popular cars over here are city cars and most of these aren't even diesels. Even with the more efficient diesels we have nowadays, not everybody drives long distances.

By Keeir on 11/7/2012 7:51:26 PM , Rating: 3

In the US, 3 gallons of gasoline are sold for each 1 gallon of Diesel. (Keep in mind most trucks use Diesel and the US has -alot- more trucking than Europe which has great sea travel lanes, canals, trains, etc), so in the passenger car market its more like 50:1)

In France, .25 gallons of gasoline are sold for each 1 gallon of Diesel

In Germany and the UK the ratio is similiar to .75 gallons of gasoline for each 1 gallon of Diesel.

The Ratio change is very dramatic (75% gasoline in US to less than 40% in Europe). Ideally as another poster has put, the best use of oil would be closer to 50-60% gasoline

By MadMan007 on 11/7/2012 12:36:03 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I made precisely that point in my post.

By superstition on 11/7/2012 4:02:22 PM , Rating: 2
Last winter, I saw diesel at $1.10 more per gallon than RUG. It was typically 80 cents higher.

Diesel seems to make more sense for passenger car owners in warmer climates. The price is more even in summer and the mileage is better.

BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By Beenthere on 11/7/2012 10:42:04 AM , Rating: 1
FYI - BMW has had Diesels in the U.S. for years. These are additional Diesel models they will be offering.

As far as Diesels are concerned, modern Diesel engines are clean, fuel efficient and extremely practical. Unfortunately Bama and the clowns at the EPA don't want clean Diesels in America like the rest of the word enjoys, they want to force consumers to buy impractical EVs and over-priced hybrids.

The U.S. government is so corrupt and clueless that it makes third world countries look good. There will be a day when these criminals are held accountable.

RE: BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By Mint on 11/7/2012 1:35:09 PM , Rating: 2
You are just all kinds of misinformed.

Diesels aren't as clean as even regular gas engines. The posterchild Jetta TDI, for example, gets a mediocre bin 5 certification, while modern gas engines do much better.

Diesels have a price premium also, and newer plugin EVs like the CMax and Fusion have lower lifetime cost than either (even without tax credit). Don't forget that plugins/hybrid offload a lot of engine runtime/stress to the electric motor, so despite the myth, they're quite reliable. Take a look at the recent Consumer Reports reliability survey, where the most reliable model for many manufacturers is a hybrid or plugin.

Speaking of the Jetta, VW is about to start selling a 170hp, 45-MPG-combined hybrid for 2013 ($25k). If you drive enough to make a Jetta TDI (34 MPG, $23k) break even over a Jetta SE (26 MPG, $21k), then the hybrid will be even better.

RE: BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By superstition on 11/7/2012 4:00:19 PM , Rating: 2
The Jetta is not the "poster child". That would be the Passat. The Passat has urea treatment, so its exhaust is cleaner and its efficiency is higher because it doesn't use as much fuel for emissions treatment, resulting in higher MPGs.

RE: BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By Lord 666 on 11/7/2012 11:55:25 PM , Rating: 2
WTF are you talking about? The 2012 tdi passat uses the same exact motor as the 2012 tdi jetta. It is that fact why i am holding off on it because it is too underpowered for me in a car the size of the passat, but ok in the jetta.

not sure what your definition of poster child is... without a doubt the single car in the US that has perpetuated and kept the diesel movement alive is the jetta. Prior to the 2012 tdi passat, the last year it was available in diesel was 2005!

RE: BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By toxicant on 11/8/2012 4:02:57 AM , Rating: 2
The 2012 Passat uses urea injection, unlike the Jetta which only uses DPF. Both cars are rated at the same MPG despite the Passat weighing nearly 300 lbs more. Yes, it feels slightly underpowered compared to the more nimble Jetta.

RE: BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By superstition on 11/9/2012 3:33:33 PM , Rating: 2
That's a subjective call. I don't feel mine is underpowered at all, especially with higher-quality diesel (like CountryMark).

By Lord 666 on 11/10/2012 4:17:52 AM , Rating: 2
The irony is we drove our 2006 Jetta TDI to the test drive and came away underwhelmed by the performance of the TDI Passat. VW should make the 3.0 TDI as an optional package for the Passat. The Q7/Toureg are balanced with the 3.0 so the Passat will be enjoyable to drive and still frugal on fuel.

In related news, was eyeing the used market for a 2006 Toureg TDI... the one with the V10. I don't care how many quarts of oil it needs or what comes out the exhaust, driving that truck made me smile. Unfortunately, my wife is insisting on a third row so Q7 is taking the lead right now.

RE: BMW already has Diesels in the U.S.
By Mint on 11/9/2012 11:33:09 AM , Rating: 2
Doesn't make a difference:
Passat TDI is bin 5
Passat 2.5L is bin 2

Other than particulate matter (where diesels have made great progress), that's a factor of 2-4x in pollutants between the two.

By superstition on 11/9/2012 3:30:46 PM , Rating: 2
What does that site say? Let's find out:

As can be seen, "clean diesel" vehicles are generally no "worse" with respect to total well-to-wheels emissions than the cleanest gasoline vehicles due to the nature of the very low volatility of diesel fuel and overall lower emissions in the WTP phase, even though the Passat TDI is "only" certified T2B5/ULEV II, while the 2.5 gasoline version is certified T2B2/PZEV. In fact, total well-to-wheels emissions are lower across-the-board in the case of the VW Passat TDI.


Based on these EPA emission factors, even the Euro-spec Passat TDI has lower WTW criteria pollutant emissions across-the-board than the PZEV version of the gasoline Passat.

Plus, the 32.80 MPG rating used for the TDI is not representative of many TDI drivers who use the car for long highway commutes. The highway MPG of the 2012 Passat TDI is much much better. If someone buys the car to mainly use for short stop/go trips then they bought the wrong type of car.

By Lord 666 on 11/8/2012 12:01:05 AM , Rating: 2
And a diesel hybrid would be even that much better at 70mpg US. But per VW, that vehicle would be too expensive.

I say build it and buyers will come.

Diesel is great
By rebound11 on 11/7/2012 10:25:55 AM , Rating: 2
I live in Europe and I have an 11 year old diesel car (1.8l engine... small by American standards, but quite big nowadays around Europe). The tank is 45 liters and I can squeeze on average 1000km out of it. That's more than my cousins petrol car (same 1.8 liter engine, same car actually on the outside, different propulsion, and his is 1 year newer). The horse power is slightly better on his car 130 vs my 115, but the torque is almost double on mine than on his (~300Nm vs little over 150Nm). He can't go more than 800 km on a full tank even if his tank is 55 liters. The price of diesel is about 20% higher here than that of petrol, which still leaves my car with a margin over his. But on another note I get my full torque at 2000 rpm and full power at 4000 rpm while he has to take it up to 2700 rpm for full torque and 5500 for full power.

I have never had any issues with mine and I drive it like a race car (even took it up to 215km/h, what else do you need?)... just regular checks and following instructions (oil+filter changes @ every 10-15k kilometers, distribution changed at every 80k km, air and A/C filter changed at every 50k km and intend to change the clutch when I reach 200k km; only hanged the glowplugs and the battery once so far @125k km).

Someone pointed out the -20 degrees C issue... as long as you warm up the glow plugs twice, turn off all electronics before start-up and use the right mix of diesel and additives it will work in those conditions as well. I almost blew my fuel pump at -22 this winter because the smart-asses at the gas-station mixed water in the diesel so they can make a quick buck. Also cars that are sold in Nordic countries have by default what some call a "nordic-kit" which includes tougher suspensions, extra shielding from ice that can be thrown by the wheels into the radiator or other parts of the car and installations that pre-heat the oil, and ready the fuel pump for a very cold start.

The only problem with diesel is that it sounds like a tractor when the engine is cold, but I give it at least 500k km lifetime, 1000k if treated correctly. To be honest, I would only like an electric car more than a diesel, and that's because of the quietness, ease of driving and instant torque.

RE: Diesel is great
By boeush on 11/7/2012 6:17:08 PM , Rating: 2
Something that's not so great: breathing the foul-smelling, carcinogenic and asthma-inducing diesel exhaust. Yeah, I've heard all about the "clean" diesels, but even they don't clean their exhaust with 100% efficiency. Maybe driving a diesel isn't so bad, but being stuck in traffic behind a diesel (with its exhaust pipe right in front of your car's cabin air intakes) isn't quite so pleasant, at all. And in high-density/high-traffic places where you might find yourself routinely stuck for large fractions of an hour in heavy traffic congestion on a 5-lane freeway (such as frequently happens in California, for instance), just the mere thought of thousands of these "clean" diesel cars idling bumper-to-bumper, combining their emissions together into a nice little cloud over the road, makes my skin crawl. I'd pity anyone whose home would be within a mile of any major road, if diesel cars became the norm in such high-traffic, high-density locales.

RE: Diesel is great
By freedom4556 on 11/7/2012 8:36:47 PM , Rating: 2
CARB and the EPA would rather you crawl in that same jam in an EV beeping away at an annoying volume to warn other pedestrians such as children and cyclists that your coming. (Like there's tons of those on a 5-lane interstate) How insanity inducing would that racket be?

RE: Diesel is great
By rebound11 on 11/8/2012 2:45:46 AM , Rating: 2
I have no clue what you're talking about... I have my car tested every year and although it's Euro 3 it can easily fit the Euro 4 emissions norm. Hell I can make it Euro 5 if I add a filter (that's a bit too expensive to be worth it). Here's some reading:

I have no idea what crap diesels you drive back there, but the exhausts of diesels in Europe cannot be "in front of any car's intake" because they're pointed downwards... that's how you can tell a diesel from a petrol car at a distance. Here:

RE: Diesel is great
By silverblue on 11/8/2012 9:40:02 AM , Rating: 2
My Peugeot 206 HDi's original exhaust was as you showed, however when the back box rotted away, I had it replaced and the exhaust was lozenge shaped (Walker - I wanted Bosal but none were available). Conversely, my other half's 206 1.1 petrol has a downward-pointing exhaust.

Diesel and costs
By mura on 11/7/2012 6:17:43 AM , Rating: 2
I have been driving diesel engine cars (in EUrope) for the last twelve years, and must say:

- For interstate, there is nothing better than diesel. My current three diesel cars (Volvo S80 D5, Volkswagen Passat 2.0 PDTDI and Ford S-Max 2.0 TDCi) all have a mileage of 35 per gallon or better (and take into account, that I drive 80 mph as this is the legal limit, not 55 or 70)

- For the dense city, traffic jams and short distances, a hybrid is always better (only my Smart Diesel 0,7 beats a Prius, it has a mileage of over 50, but it is only a 2-seater and can hardly be considered a car if compared to an SUV)

- diesel engines have no longlivety issues, if handled properly (no high rpm when engine is cold, oil change periods) - all my previous diesels ran 150k miles without problems

- torque is comparable to much bigger petrol engines, my 2 liter supercharged diesel engine produces the same torque as a 4-liter petrol engine

- one big disadvantage: under -20 C the diesel begins to make problems (special additives are needed, but in Europe, where the majority of cars run on diesel, the oil companies offer special diesel products for cold weather)

RE: Diesel and costs
By Motoman on 11/7/2012 11:10:02 AM , Rating: 2
Diesel in the States (at least the cold states) get additives in the winter too. And many truck drivers simply let their trucks idle all winter to avoid any issues with the fuel gelling in the lines/injectors/wherever.

RE: Diesel and costs
By superstition on 11/7/2012 3:58:32 PM , Rating: 2
VW diesels have longevity issues relating to the fuel system.

The injectors send metal shards through it, requiring the replacement of pretty much the entire thing. I don't know if the redesign for the new Passat has rectified this or not.

The '05 Passat also had a serious longevity issue. The timing chain was too wimpy for the engine and would warp and snap.

The cams in PD VWs also tend to have wearing problems.

RE: Diesel and costs
By inperfectdarkness on 11/8/2012 3:59:56 AM , Rating: 2
I just want to be able to make 1000 ft lbs of torque without breaking a sweat. Diesels are great for torque.

BS Fuel Economy Number
By btc909 on 11/7/2012 1:42:55 PM , Rating: 2
If you want to see some real BS fuel economy numbers look at the Ford C-Max. You better drive like a grandma under the speed limit if you want to see that 47mpg combined.

RE: BS Fuel Economy Number
By freedom4556 on 11/7/2012 8:00:40 PM , Rating: 2
Ford is basically cheating the test because the test is known. This is not a new thing or a Ford thing. My 2000 Pontiac Firebird v6 auto short shifts from 2nd straight into 4th at moderate acceleration around 38-40mph. this is because there is a plateau in the city test around this speed, and they get better mileage in 4th. In real life, the car almost always kicks back down into 3rd, making for an annoying dip in acceleration and a loud roar as it kicks down with your foot barely in the throttle (because it lugged in 4th). I personally hate this 1-2-4-3-4 pattern on the way to 50 mph at moderate throttle. See Motortrend's recent head to head of the Prius V vs the C-Max.

By dwighty on 11/9/2012 5:24:57 AM , Rating: 1

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RE: der
By YashBudini on 11/11/2012 2:12:29 PM , Rating: 2
Hey Mick,

Could you get rid of this a $ $ h o l e ?

By stilltrying on 11/7/2012 7:17:19 PM , Rating: 2
Avg based upon


Where I am at $3.24/gal divided by 35MPG lets go high equals $.0925 per mile

Jetta TDI

$3.86/gal divided by 42MPG (although i get 44MPG)equals $.0919 per mile

Its not hard to figure out which is actually cheaper gas or diesel just do it on a per mile basis and then everything is equal

"Young lady, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" -- Homer Simpson
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