quote: CAFE standards are just the least intrusive way to move the market in that direction
quote: You are repeating the same exact cost argument that was made when seatbelts were first mandated.
quote: And that's what this is really about: Not increasing fuel economy, but stimulating the development of alternative power sources.
quote: Engineering an entire fleet of cars to, on average, provide double fuel efficiency WHILE still being a vehicle that people would actually want to buy.
quote: They aren't asking companies to provide double efficiency. Think closer to 50% efficiency increases for most vehicles, at most.
quote: Furthermore, cars like the prius and cr-z already meet the standard and people purchase those vehicles.
quote: Given that most people wouldn't notice the difference in common driving between a BMW with 300hp and a BMW with a 150hp engine.
quote: People still could buy high performance cars under the new standard, but it would not be at the current numbers now. Buying a performance car under the new CAFE is probably going to be more like buying a Lotus Elise or a BMW M3 vs the common practice of buying a Mustang or Camaro at $30k.
quote: A car that gets 25 MPG would need 120% increase in fuel economy to meet the proposed standard. Most cars that are not stodgy, boring econoboxes are not getting much over 30 MPG.
quote: Average of the above set is 29 MPG, which means you would need 190% improvement in fuel economy, on average, to hit the 55 MPG standard.
quote: Obama was successful in spiking hybrid sales by allowing our fuel prices to nearly double to $4 / gallon
quote: You'd have to be quite dense not to notice the difference between 300 and 150 HP, especially when accelerating to the pace of traffic as you enter a highway or passing another car at highway speeds. You'll also notice the lack of power if your car has a load and you're traveling up any sort of incline.
quote: Performance cars are the cars most people want - but many opt for what they need since they can't afford more than one.
quote: The CAFE standard would be more reasonable if low sales volume vehicles could be excluded so that auto companies are not discouraged from building cars that are actually awesome. They already hit a lot of performance cars with a "gas guzzler" tax - utter BS if you ask me.
quote: You're assuming that the 25mpg car needs to hit that 54.5mpg target.
quote: They stopped doing fleet wide averages in 2007 and it is now based on vehicle footprint. So you're example means nothing in this context, unless you are talking about credit shifting within a manufacturer to meet a standard failure in a specific class.
quote: That is a myth perpetuated by the Right. Obama didn't double gas. It was $4.11 in July 2008 while Bush was still in office. The $2 gas was a market effect of the recession and decreased demand.
quote: Furthermore, Presidents have little effect on the price of gas
quote: People spend most of their time commuting which often means heavy backed up traffic. I don't need 500 ponies to travel 10ft at any given moment.
quote: Outside of a powerband, cars act predominantly the same because you aren't going to be able to get a massive hp difference in the first 2500rpm.
quote: As middle class income continues to shrink, more people will be unlikely to buy impractical sports cars. It the nature of the market, not some nasty scheme by the government.
quote: That is why you see the Camry and its competitors selling the most. It's because the Camry is practical and reliable, not because it is fun to drive. If people wanted fun to drive they buy BMWs and Mercedes.
quote: However, most manufacturers won't build a sportscar because they would have to pass on the cost to the consumer and would be unlikely to make a substantial amount of money off a low volume seller compared to the amount it would take to design and develop the car.
quote: The footprint thing was designed to prevent manufacturers from offsetting cars with low MPG ratings by adding one or two high MPG cars to the lineup...but that opens the door for them to make big cars with dinky 4-banger engines so that they can boost the MPG for a given "category" of cars.
quote: Obama has been trying to force "green energy" policies on America to the exclusion of something practical like domestic oil production. Don't buy into the nonsense that a president's policies have no effect on the price of gas because it's a load of crap.
quote: Not only can you buy these vehicles but people actually do even with the obamaconomy holding the middle class hostage. So don't tell me that there is no demand for such cars or that they're relics of the past. People still want them and will buy them, impractical as they may be.
quote: That's the wrong way to look at it. If your nameplate doesn't have some kind of awesomeness associated with it, it's going to be a boring brand that doesn't get much attention.
quote: So a turbo car or a V8 which has 70-100% of its peak torque at 2,500 RPM is going to "feel the same" as your econoturd? Riiiight...
quote: The reason we do the footprint method is so that automakers like Ford, Chevy, and Dodge can still make trucks.
quote: Now they determine it based on footprint within the class.
quote: That's why you have different metrics for each class with subcompacts like the Fit being forced to hit 60mpg CAFE (45mpg EPA) while larger cars like the Camry have to hit about 45mpg CAFE (30mpg EPA).
quote: Why don't you go to politifact and look up Obama $2 gas.
quote: Gas is a internationally trade commodity. Do you think we could actually hit $2 again?
quote: The government doesn't drill for oil itself and can't control the producers or consumers of oil. Obama can't tell China to stop importing oil any more than he can tell OPEC to produce more crude.
quote: That is why I say presidents have little control over gas prices. It has nothing to do with Obama being in office, it's just simple economics.
quote: So you can point out the SRT Viper and the Corvette ZR1, but consider that those cars are sold in exceedingly small numbers and the only way they will survive in the future is to sell them with 4 or 6 cylinders to a mass market or to sell them at a high price, with development costs factored in, to a small group of wealthier individuals.
quote: A better example would be to look at Toyota which went for about 7yrs without the MR2 or the Supra and took to volume selling crown from GM.
quote: An amazing car doesn't sell the brand. Corvettes help sell cars but not as much as a solid line of reliable models.
quote: I am right that you won't see a huge difference between hp at the 2500rpm range. However, I'm glad you mentioned torque because, yes there is a massive difference when going from a V8 on torque to a 4 cylinder. However, when comparing economies to full size cars, you are also forgetting that a full size car will weigh about 1000lbs more than an econobox. So the increase in torque has to match or exceed the ratio to weight to derive a benefit from the increased torque.
quote: CAFE standards were applicable to vehicles under 8,500 lbs AND there "light trucks" were graded differently than "cars". So no, this is not the reason. It's what you believe to be the reason.
quote: Why don't you just look at the historical prices of gas at the pump from 2000-2008 and 2008-2012?
quote: If we are drilling oil locally we can tax oil exports and credit domestically sold oil to make it more cost effective to sell oil that is drilled in the US within the US.
quote: The technology developed and implemented in pinnacle vehicles like the Corvette ZR1 and SRT Viper can be applied to all vehicles throughout the model lineup in some way. So while the investment in developing these cars may not be recouped from sales of said vehicles - the knowledge gained allows them to produce better cars overall.
quote: More simple rithmetic I presume? You're incorrect btw.
quote: We can safely conclude that you have never driven anything other than an econo car or maybe a "sporty import", but noting truly fast like an Evo or WRX STI.
quote: The footprint applies to trucks too because there is quite a difference between the Colorado and the 3500. Now Chevy doesn't have to sell three Colorado to every one 3500 to meet the standard just like they don't need to sell 4 Aveo for every Camaro. That is how the footprint method applies. Read up on it.
quote: Why don't you? Then you can see how it was $4 per gallon right before it plummeted to $2, along with the economy. Wow! Now I understand what you mean, the best way to get gas down to $2 is to crash our economy and kill demand, right?
quote: So we can violate the world trade agreement we signed onto and pay fines to oil producing countries? You can't go protective like you're talking about while remaining part of the WTO.
quote: You're excellent idea is not possible with our economy. As I mentioned earlier, it's simple economics with a demand and supply curve dictated by the rise in demand in China and the limiting of supply by OPEC.
quote: The engines are not investments that can be applied to all vehicles because you would be stupid to put a 426hp engine in a Malibu.
quote: You are comparing a V8 super car to an anemic I4. My original example was a 150hp vs a 300hp. So a better comparison would be your V6 Camaro and the I4 Accent. You add 50% more weight for 60% increase in hp and torque. If there were better examples.I would use them but they are a rough selection. Ofcourse a 425hp car is going to beat a 100hp car unless it is 4 times the weight. I never said an econobox with near equal weight and a quarter of the power would be the same. Your example is more like comparing a Veyron to a Prius.
quote: I've driven a Mustang GT, a Corvette coupe, a WRX STI, and Dodge Charger. I know what cars drive like, and I could easily tell the difference between the Charger and the Corvette based primarily because of the weight difference. Now if you drive those vehicles outside of their proper power bands like 2500 rpms vs 4500 rpms, they feel sluggish like driving a normal mid size car within its power band. That is the point I am trying to make. Any car outside its power band will always feel sluggish because you are slinging a car with little torque relative to its weight.