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No contract after nearly a year of negotiations

Negotiations between the U.S. government and Lockheed Martin over the $400 billion F-35 Lightning II program have been tense. Defense News reports that one deputy program manager said that the relationship between the Department of Defense and Lockheed is "the worst I have ever seen." 
 
After that comment was made, U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta stated, "I don't know that I would portray it in those terms. These are difficult negotiations, as they always are when you're dealing with the amount of money and the complexity that's involved with the Joint Strike Fighter."
 
Defense News reports that last week Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter put his support behind comments made by Air Force Major General Christopher Bogdan. Bogdan had harsh words for Lockheed Martin’s failure to sign a contract with the Pentagon for 32 F-35 fighters after almost a year of negotiations.
 
However, Panetta does not agree that the relationship between the U.S. government Lockheed is the worst he's ever seen.


Lockheed F-35B Lightning II fighters [Source: Lockheed Martin]
 
“I don't share it, number one, because … I don't know the history of just how much has gone on in the past,” Panetta said. “But at least from what I have seen at this point, my view of it is these are very tough negotiations, but they aren't a reflection that either side has given up or thinks that the other side, you know, is in a more difficult state at all.”
 
Panetta is also reportedly unhappy that Congress won't be back in session until after the elections in November. An initial round of budget cuts in defense spending is set to begin in January. With Congress out of session until the elections are over, there is no chance of avoiding or delaying the defense spending cuts.
 
Panetta said, "I'll take whatever the hell deal they can make right now to deal with sequestration. The problem now is that they've left town and all of this has now been put off into the lame duck session."
 
“We need stability,” he said. “You want a strong national defense for this country? I need to have some stability. And that's what I'm asking the Congress to do: Give me some stability with regards to the funding of the Defense Department for the future.”

Source: Defense News



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RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2012 12:53:02 PM , Rating: 2
Correct me if I'm wrong but could the B-2 also take off and land vertically? Was there a Navy carrier version of the B-2 somewhere I missed?

The F-117, ditto. Also not much in a dogfight.

I don't know what you are not getting about the "multi-roll" aspect here and how it, combined with stealth, ballooned the development costs of the F-35 all to hell.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Amiga500 on 9/28/2012 1:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't know what you are not getting about the "multi-roll" aspect here and how it, combined with stealth, ballooned the development costs of the F-35 all to hell.


Right enough, sure what would I know about it? </sarcasm>

So was it stealth that caused the bulkheads to have fatigue issues?
Or the tail hook to have completely the wrong geometry?
Or the sensors to have too high a latency?
Or significant vertical tail buffet?
Or the horizontal tail to melt after prolonged afterburner use?

You've been sold up the river and are still in denial. I don't know why you are defending people who are talking your tax dollars and wasting them.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2012 1:45:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't know why you are defending people who are talking your tax dollars and wasting them.


Funny but I didn't know I was defending Congress :)


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Amiga500 on 9/28/2012 5:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
So Lockheed aren't wasting public money then?

Interesting take on it.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Reclaimer77 on 9/29/2012 6:17:59 AM , Rating: 2
So the Eurofighter boys haven't fleeced you guys with it's godly-expensive ongoing Typhoon drama then?

I mean since you're slamming Americans here, let's not pretend the same thing doesn't happen in the UK with your contractors.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/eurofighte...


By Amiga500 on 9/30/2012 8:38:32 AM , Rating: 2
Many of its problems have stemmed from political clowns interfering in decisions. Unfortunately an obvious side effect from it being an international program.

If you are interested, go look back through the ECF, ECA, EFA and FEFA gestation in the 80s and early 90s.

Much of the arguments were along national lines - choosing systems, sub-systems and equipment is hard enough without political f**kwits getting involved.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2012 2:11:34 PM , Rating: 1
Some of the greatest fighters and bombers in the world had similar problems early on like you're describing. Hell some had worst!

Honestly Amiga, you're cynicism is not impressing me. I'm not in denial, and I haven't been "sold" anything. Stop pretending like we, as citizens, had any fucking thing to do with this!

I don't know what you've been told, but none of us had anything to do with the goddamn F-35! You've made your opinion clear, but now you're being extremely annoying and militant over it. To the point that you're blaming people who have no say in this stuff for the results.

Can you just drop the arrogance, the passive/aggressive bullshit, and calm down?


By Amiga500 on 9/28/2012 5:22:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some of the greatest fighters and bombers in the world had similar problems early on like you're describing. Hell some had worst!


Name any.

Even the F-4 with its wing problems didn't have a 15+ year gestation period with f__k all to show for it.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Amiga500 on 9/28/2012 1:14:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong


I named a number of aircraft that each do things the F-35 claims to be able to do.

Only they did it 20+ years ago.

Seems that went straight over your head. Much like the rest of the F-35 issues.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2012 1:50:59 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You've no idea how much I'm dumbing this all down for general consumption.


Hey buddy, why don't you take this smug air of superiority and condescending act and go fuck yourself with it okay?

I'm sorry you have to "dumb" yourself down with us poor apes. But I'm pretty sure you're just some guy who reads Janes and the Wiki like everyone else. Are you an aeronautical engineer? Do you work for Lockheed? No. You have no more authority here than anyone else. You have an opinion, congratulations!

quote:
I named a number of aircraft that each do things the F-35 claims to be able to do.


Yes but no single aircraft has ever had to do ALL the things being asked of the F-35 airframe. Hello? It's YOUR head this point is going over.

And you know what, I was never a fan of the damn thing anyway. But you're just such an asshole it makes agreeing with you nearly impossible.


RE: Out to lunch, be back in December
By Amiga500 on 9/28/2012 5:26:19 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Are you an aeronautical engineer?


Complete with doctorate, academic and industrial awards thank you very much.

quote:
Do you work for Lockheed?


Are you nuts?!?

Why would a turkey vote for Christmas? If I was in Lockheed right now I'd be laughing all the way to a million dollar home.

quote:
Yes but no single aircraft has ever had to do ALL the things being asked of the F-35 airframe. Hello?


I guess you aren't getting the bit where that isn't nearly as big a leap as Lockheed would like you to believe. Nor is it a leap into the unknown as much knowledge already existed in each field and integration of most aspects.

Otherwise what excuse would they have for not delivering the thing near time and budget?


By Bubbacub on 9/29/2012 8:44:42 AM , Rating: 1
"Are you an aeronautical engineer?"

Complete with doctorate, academic and industrial awards thank you very much.


head shot!


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