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Court demands to know why TSA is brazenly violating federal laws and its orders

We've covered over the past few years how the U.S. Transportation Safety Agency's "nude" full-body scanners have been used and abused.  The TSA has received sweeping condemnation for the Orwellian scanner program, which many experts say cannot detect dangerous materials as well as metal detectors or traditional search techniques.

A handful of high-profile civil liberties watchdog organizations have targeted the deployment.  Perhaps the most successful was the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) lawsuit against the TSA.  While EPIC fell short of felling the nude scanners on Constitutional grounds, it did score a victory of sorts when the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit found the TSA violated a federal transparency law.

The court on July 15, 2011 ordered the TSA "to act properly" and rectify its breach of the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) of 1946, which requires federal programs to hold public hearings.  The TSA held no such hearings with regards to the court scanners, so three judge appellate panel ordered the agency [PDF] to undergo a 90-day public comment period.

Body scanner images
The TSA has defied a court order to hold a public review its "nude" full-body scanners.
[Image Source: TSA]

So what’s problem?  The TSA never complied with the court order.  As of last month, it told Wired in an interview that the hearing and policy review had been shelved until sometime "next year".  The TSA has stated it really doesn't want to hold the public review at all, as it feels it could harm the government's capability to respond to "ever-evolving threats."

That defiant stance landed the TSA back in court this week.  In a short ruling [PDF] the federal court reiterated its demand for hearings, ordering the TSA to respond by Aug. 30.

Jim Harper, the director of information policy studies at the Cato Institute, has an active petition on the new White House petition site rolled out by the Obama administration.  The petition demands the TSA follow the law and hold the public hearings.  The petition has almost 16,500 signatures and only needs about 8,500 more to reach its goal of 25,000.  Under the rules of the petition site, if the additional signature mark is met, President Barack Obama must personally respond.
 
TSA petition
A petition hopes to get President Obama to force the TSA to follow the law.

It's understandable why the TSA wouldn't want to have to answer tough questions from the public on health risks to frequent fliers and why the TSA was storing nude body scanner images, after it had promised not to.

However, even considering the controversy, it's in the relative minority.  Agencies like the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency have complied with the APA rules, offering public reviews of contentious provisions such as the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards.

Sources: U.S. District Court for D.C. via Wired, Wired



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The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 11:52:09 AM , Rating: 2
There are far more effective ways of keeping passengers safe than frisking old ladies and taking quasi-nude pics of everyone that gets on an airplane.

1. Start profiling, it's politically incorrect but it will target the people that are more likely to cause incidents or acts of terrorism.

2. Eliminate the TSA and have the FBI, CIA, and NSA screen passengers; use facial and voice recognition systems to find people with links to terrorists, gangs, or histories of violence. If any of those 3 organizations are looking for you I don't want to be on a plane with you.

3. Arm the flight crew and allow citizens with concealed carry permits that are valid in both the departure and destination states to carry firearms on planes. Law abiding citizens are not the issue and if faced with a hijacking situation then they should have the option of taking matters into thier own hands.




RE: The TSA is useless
By GreenEnvt on 8/2/2012 12:02:06 PM , Rating: 2
I think letting everyone on the plan have guns is about the worst idea you could possibly come up with.

Now the planes will be filled with bullet holes, causing decompression, and possibly crashing the plane. All because some guy pissed off another drunk guy with a gun.
Flight crew maybe, but even then they are a risk (a few cases of flight crews going nuts and trying to kill everyone have happened over the years), and they are also then a target for someone on a plane looking for a gun.

I'd prefer passengers watch a video on tackling someone who has a knife or similar. Explosives you're not going to be able to do anything about though, if that's missed at the airport you are screwed.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 12:11:47 PM , Rating: 1
A gun is a piece of metal, just because you hold one doesn't make you a homicidal maniac or mentally unstable. In your daily life running around in public you are likely in the company of many armed citizens and don't even realize it...

The reason why idiots with firearms target places like schools, airplanes, or more recently theatres is because there are a large number of people in a confined area that are unlikely to be armed (or disarmed at the door in the case of airports). You will never see some lunatic go to a shooting range and try and gun people down... there is a very good reason for that.


RE: The TSA is useless
By nolisi on 8/2/2012 12:16:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You will never see some lunatic go to a shooting range and try and gun people down... there is a very good reason for that.


Dude- lunatics will gun people down and then SHOOT THEMSELVES. Other people carrying guns will not stop them.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 12:32:00 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Dude- lunatics will gun people down and then SHOOT THEMSELVES. Other people carrying guns will not stop them.


Other people carrying guns may not stop lunatics from shooting into crowds, but they may put a stop to the situation before said lunatic runs out of bullets. 5 or 6 people in that theatre in colorado with handguns could have completely changed the outcome of that shooting... perhaps 5 or 10 less people would have lost their lives. completely worth it in my opinion.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Camikazi on 8/2/2012 12:41:54 PM , Rating: 2
Doubtful considering the guy threw a smoke bomb (or teargas can't remember) before he went in shooting. Others with guns trying to hit him while the smoke was around would probably hit innocent people before they got the shooter. Remember the shooter didn't have to aim just randomly shoot, the others with guns trying to stop him would have to have good aim or they would hit random innocent people.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 12:58:25 PM , Rating: 2
so innocent people being completely defenseless targets is better than innocent people having some chance of fighting back?

Sure the people in the theatre are caught off guard by a gunman with gas and a plan of some sort but that doesn't mean that one of the armed citizens wont be or can't get into a position to fight back. Some Chance > No Chance


RE: The TSA is useless
By Schrag4 on 8/2/2012 1:43:44 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Others with guns trying to hit him while the smoke was around would probably hit innocent people before they got the shooter. Remember the shooter didn't have to aim just randomly shoot,...


These kinds of statements really bug me. Were you there? Do you know how far the gas was affecting people, or to what extent? Would less overall innocent deaths and injuries have been a worse outcome if one or two of the casualties were accidental? Do you think it's OK when police injure or kill innocent people who were caught in the crossfire but it's not OK for non-LEO? Do you not believe that a legally carrying civilian could have exercised judgement in determining whether or not engaging the threat was the right thing to do, based on their vantage point (other innocents between them and the shooter or not) and based on if their abilities were compromised by gas? Do you really think people would just start randomly shooting around them if they didn't feel they had a clear shot?

quote:
...the others with guns trying to stop him would have to have good aim or they would hit random innocent people.


You're absolutely right. People who exercise the right to protect themselves really ought to be proficient with what they carry, which means practice, practice, practice. I'm not suggesting that everyone who carries puts in enough effort, but don't you at least acknowledge that some - many in fact - do? If you think police and military officers are the only ones who know how to use a gun, you're very sorely mistaken. In fact, there are plenty of police and military whose proficiency with a firearm is well below what I would consider the average carrying civilian's profeciency level. Kinda scary when you think about it...


RE: The TSA is useless
By JediJeb on 8/2/2012 1:55:02 PM , Rating: 3
I'm just glad we are calling it as it is, a lunatic was the problem not the guns he carried. The media seems to want to downplay his mental state and totally over exaggerate the fact he had guns. Honestly if the lunatic had been only armed with a sword he could have still managed to do the same amount of damage when going up against unarmed victims. The teargas and smoke was his greatest advantage in the situation and it would have made it very difficult for an armed victim to have taken him out easily, but even then one armed victim might have made a difference. We will never know though since none were.


RE: The TSA is useless
By sviola on 8/2/2012 2:02:15 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, if he had a sword people would have had more chances of survival. All it needs is to hold a hard enough object to protect one(a fire extinguisher could protect anyone form a sword).


RE: The TSA is useless
By JediJeb on 8/2/2012 3:54:49 PM , Rating: 2
Depends how proficient you are with the fire extinguisher verses the swordsman's proficiency with his weapon. A slashing movement with the sword would be fairly easy to defend against with a fire extinguisher, but a thrusting move would be more difficult since you would need to not just block the move, but deflect it enough to miss your body. If the sword slides past the fire extinguisher in a thrusting move then it can still go right through you.


RE: The TSA is useless
By chenjf on 8/2/2012 6:24:59 PM , Rating: 1
It is a fire extinguisher. Just before he gets in sword range, you can spray the contents of the fire extinguisher into his face and get away or throw it at him. With a gun, he can shot you from futher than the extinguisher can.

Yes, I agree that if there were patrons there that had guns then there would be less death and injuries. But it is only in these rare cases that it would help. The issue is not whether if gun carrying patrons would have lessen the damage in these rare cases but what happens the rest of the time that these gun carrying citizens are going about their regular lives. Say they are carrying when they are drunk and get pissed off by someone and decide to use the gun; I think this will occur much more often than the occasional crazy that decide to do something like this. So, its an argument of saving 10 or 15 people at one event vs 1 person getting killed/hurt in hundreds of incidents.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Solandri on 8/2/2012 7:47:34 PM , Rating: 3
This is a silly argument, but...
quote:
It is a fire extinguisher. Just before he gets in sword range, you can spray the contents of the fire extinguisher into his face and get away or throw it at him.

He was wearing a gas mask.

quote:
The issue is not whether if gun carrying patrons would have lessen the damage in these rare cases but what happens the rest of the time that these gun carrying citizens are going about their regular lives. Say they are carrying when they are drunk and get pissed off by someone and decide to use the gun; I think this will occur much more often than the occasional crazy that decide to do something like this.

In case you didn't know, there already are lots of citizens with concealed weapons permits carrying guns around you right now. And there hasn't been an epidemic of them shooting others while drunk or pissed off. The fact that you didn't know this is a testament to their responsible use (or rather, non-use) of firearms.

As for why this is a silly argument, mass shooting incidents are statistical outliers. Like terrorist attacks, they're very rare, and account for an almost negligible amount of the risk of death you encounter in life. If I remember the stats right, you're 4x more likely to be killed riding around in a car than you are from random gun violence (all gun homicides, not just mass shootings). Yet most people seem to have no problem accepting the bigger risk, while they wring their hands in worry about the smaller one.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2012 8:00:05 PM , Rating: 3
Something like 98+% of concealed carry permit holders are able to renew their licenses annually. Which means not only are they NOT going around randomly shooting people, but they aren't committing any other crimes either.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Warren21 on 8/3/2012 2:05:16 AM , Rating: 3
Also of note, something like 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot! Amazing.

Just playing Devil's advocate here; I am actually 1000% for concealed carry, and I'm Canadian. I would love to get it here.

All I'm saying is passing here-say/opinion/word-of-mouth off as fact is utterly useless. You tend to do this quite often. If you're going to claim something useful, back it up [with citations].


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/3/2012 11:24:44 AM , Rating: 3
Except that's not a made up statistic. No matter how you slice it, legal gun owners and especially CCW permit holders, are a very law abiding and respectable group of people.

quote:
All I'm saying is passing here-say/opinion/word-of-mouth off as fact is utterly useless. You tend to do this quite often.


Excuse me? So because you didn't do the legwork yourself, you just assume I'm lying? I'm not passing anything off here.

The problem is CCW permit's are revoked at the State level, I wish I could find a comprehensive neat list for all 49 States, but it's a case by case basis.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

For example * Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)


To date, Florida has issued 1,136,496 permits, and revoked 157 (0.014%) due to gun crimes by permit-holders.


RE: The TSA is useless
By tamalero on 8/5/2012 3:27:23 PM , Rating: 2
it would still blind him, since the mask doesnt shot water.. it shots a goo-foam chemical that could get fixed in his mask.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Netjak on 8/3/2012 6:00:08 AM , Rating: 1
this is mental state in wich this can happen. you want a gun, you have right to kill, you think you can respond to man with fire arms. no, you can't. you have to feel safe, to delegate job of public safety to trained profesionals and firearms have to be on battle field not on streets in civilized country. in that state of mind nobody will see you as a threat and wil not shot you. in us everybody have a gun for safety and that is sole reason for high rate of murders in US, unseen in any other civilized country.


RE: The TSA is useless
By CowKing on 8/3/2012 2:10:37 AM , Rating: 2
That's completely inaccurate. You should feel ashamed of what you have just said.

Let's run down what happened at the recent Aurora theater massacre.
1)James Holmes throws tear gas canisters in to the crowded theater.
2)He then proceeds to unload on the crowd.

Now, this all happened within a couple of seconds. Plus some people thought that it was a stunt for the movie. But for the sake of the argument let's put armed citizens into the mix. We have people being shot and killed with loud sounds coming from the speakers, and the discharge of Mr. Holmes weapons.

Can't see? check
can't hear? check

What is an armed citizen supposed to think when everyone starts drawing their weapon? Just shoot the person that looks most suspecting? He also had protective armor on so you's need some fairly high powered rounds to actually do any damage. Even the police agree that it was a good thing that no body had a gun or otherwise it would have been a lot worse.

What delusional world do you live in?


RE: The TSA is useless
By knutjb on 8/3/2012 5:18:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
That's completely inaccurate. You should feel ashamed of what you have just said.
Have you ever talked to anyone who has had body armor on and was shot? Ever worn a gas mask and shoot a gun? Do you have any weapons training? In that environment ANY distraction would have saved lives. Holmes was not trained and any distraction would have thrown him off guard leading to forced errors. The police did what they do in the vast majority of their job, react and not prevent. That isn't a slam on the police just the reality of how they function.
quote:
What delusional world do you live in?


RE: The TSA is useless
By phazers on 8/3/2012 1:54:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
5 or 6 people in that theatre in colorado with handguns could have completely changed the outcome of that shooting... perhaps 5 or 10 less people would have lost their lives.


More likely that would have been 5 or 6 more sources of bullets flying out into the crowd, shot by untrained non professionals who might even start shooting at each other out of confusion in the chaos.

Really bad idea..


RE: The TSA is useless
By tamalero on 8/5/2012 3:25:13 PM , Rating: 2
that would happen in a perfect world.

except this isnt a perfect world..
due of panic, smoke and the suits everyone was wearing in the theatre, you will find yourself immersed in a huge friendlyfirefight.
because noone will know really who is the bad guy and who isnt.

I still love how proguns always thinks ¨guns solves everything¨ and ¨everything happens as planned¨ when its involved in guns..

guess what? IT DOESNT.. even trained officials make mistakes.
now can you imagine your gunnut hillbilly with zero training?


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 12:25:57 PM , Rating: 3
"A gun is a piece of metal, just because you hold one doesn't make you a homicidal maniac or mentally unstable."

IT doesnt mean you cant be clocked on the back of the head from behind nad disarmed, thus leaving a terrorist on a plane. Really, think about how it would play out. If the crew or cistizens had guns. There would be an immediate plan made by Al Qaeda to distract and disarm one of the crew and then its over.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 12:39:28 PM , Rating: 1
No, its not over.

Heres what happens. The terrorist hits a flight attendant and starts feeling through her clothes trying to find the gun (this whole process is going to take a few seconds) meanwhile the 4 remaining flight crew and 7 passengers pull their firearms and point them at the would be terrorist. At this point the terrorist will either submitt to the will of flight crew/passengers or get shot mulitple times from multiple directions.


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 12:43:20 PM , Rating: 1
LOL. ya, nothing can go wrong there. A solid defense plan.

What if there are more than one terrorist? You simply cant have guns on planes, unless it's by trained skilled, law enforcement people like air marshalls, or even military.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Ammohunt on 8/2/2012 2:38:18 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah try the terrorist knows that their will be people armed on said flight so he chooses a flight where he knows people will not be armed based on airline policy. This is already well established fact crime is lower where its widely known that citizens are armed e.g. Cities around Military installations like Colorado Springs, CO vs. say Chicago, IL where firearms are banned.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Jereb on 8/2/2012 5:13:54 PM , Rating: 2
Whats the crime rate in America vs the crime rate in some other country's with stricter gun laws?


RE: The TSA is useless
By Schrag4 on 8/2/2012 5:33:03 PM , Rating: 2
Google found me this in a few seconds:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/Th...

Also, intentional homocides have been steadily decreasing in the US over the last decade in spite of the fact that gun ownership has increased substantially.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Jereb on 8/2/2012 11:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like Australia is the place to be aye.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Ammohunt on 8/2/2012 10:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
RE: The TSA is useless
By nolisi on 8/2/2012 12:56:33 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, those are pretty precise numbers- you've seen this happen before?

Dude- just because you can get a license and go to a firing range doesn't mean you have perfect situational awareness, judgement and aim. A few people on the plane might be highly skilled at best, the rest will probably be mediocre at best. The hull of the plane will also likely get shot multiple times from multiple directions as well from those thinking "I got this."

Who knows, in that situation, someone might take the opportunity to shoot a flight attendant because of a missed connection earlier in their travel.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 1:07:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dude- just because you can get a license and go to a firing range doesn't mean you have perfect situational awareness, judgement and aim.


yup, you're absolutely right.

quote:
The hull of the plane will also likely get shot multiple times from multiple directions as well from those thinking "I got this."


So? Aircraft are designed to handle things like the exterior doors coming off or punctures to the fuselage. The pilot will have to drop to 10,000 feet (so the people don't pass out) and fly to the nearest airport. You've watched snakes on a plane a few too many times if you think a couple pistol rounds is going to tear a giant hole in the side of the plane and cause massive structural failues leading to the plane falling out of the sky.


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 1:22:47 PM , Rating: 2
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you have absolutely zero experience in either law enforcement, or security... Or airlines.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Ringold on 8/2/2012 2:14:20 PM , Rating: 2
One point is valid: a handful of bullet holes isn't going to cause a crash, unless the pilots are incompetent or the airframe hadn't been properly maintained. If aircraft were delicate little butterflies there'd be a lot more aviation disasters.

Further, and maybe I just missed it, but you're all forgetting one obvious fact: special ammunition designed to minimize airframe damage is already used by air marshalls, and could just as easily be used by flight crew.

I have to agree that there's a small number of places where an armed populace might be more risk then its worth. 99% of places are not among them, but the inside of a plane... Most gun owners just don't put that much practice in at a range.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2012 2:59:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
One point is valid: a handful of bullet holes isn't going to cause a crash, unless the pilots are incompetent or the airframe hadn't been properly maintained. If aircraft were delicate little butterflies there'd be a lot more aviation disasters.


Okay I just need to educate some people here about something: defense ammunition.

Over-penetration is a big concern to those of us who carry concealed defense weapons. The absolute last thing you want to have happen, is a round pass through someone and injure an innocent person or cause any collateral damage. Which is why we carry "hollowpoints" and other types of ammunition designed to fragment or mushroom on impact and remain inside the body while causing maximum damage.

I think it's highly unlikely you would see Hollywood style "holes" being drilled through an aircraft from the typical defensive ammunition fired from concealed handguns, which typically only have 2.5"-4" barrels.


RE: The TSA is useless
By JediJeb on 8/2/2012 2:03:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So? Aircraft are designed to handle things like the exterior doors coming off or punctures to the fuselage. The pilot will have to drop to 10,000 feet (so the people don't pass out) and fly to the nearest airport. You've watched snakes on a plane a few too many times if you think a couple pistol rounds is going to tear a giant hole in the side of the plane and cause massive structural failues leading to the plane falling out of the sky.


This part is true. They even tried it on a Mythbuster's episode once (yea not the most definitive source but still). Even blowing out a whole window does not suck people out of the plane. Once you decompress in a couple seconds you just have the wind to contend with as it passes by the opening. Even that Hawaiian airlines plane that lost a big section of its upper hull only lost the flight attendant that happened to be standing in that area, and the plane still landed safely.

As far as having everyone armed, no, there are many people who just shouldn't be trying that. I am not for taking away any rights to have guns, but people need to be knowledgeable of their limitations in certain circumstances. I am however in favor of armed crews if they are properly trained.


RE: The TSA is useless
By sviola on 8/2/2012 2:14:38 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with the "everyone has a gun in the plane" scenario is that terrorists will have them too. And when a shootout on a confined environment happens, lots of people will die/be injured, including pilots.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 2:24:41 PM , Rating: 1
If terrorists are on the plane then every other security measure has failed and the only thing you have left is you and the people around you for defense. An armed flight crew and passengers is not an easy target for a hand full of terrorists.


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 2:39:07 PM , Rating: 2
"If terrorists are on the plane then every other security measure has failed and the only thing you have left is you and the people around you for defense."

What you keep missing is causaity. As it is now, Terrorists cant get on a plane with a Weapon. If you arm the flight crew, Terrorosts CAN be on a plane with a weapon.

I am not at all against guns, I fully support the right to bear arms. "Guns dont kill people, people do" etc etc... I have no problem with any of that, but not on a plane, simply because it will cause the very problem it is designed to eliminate.


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 2:49:27 PM , Rating: 2
damn, I cant type today... "causality".


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 11:11:02 PM , Rating: 2
If that argument held water gun shows would be the most prevalent terrorist target of all... Think about it, a 1000 people all crammed into the same building tightly grouped around displays, and guns (the root cause of terrorism) everywhere... the perfect terrorist target... except half the people are gun enthusiasts and are probably packing and you would have to defend against an army of armed *gasp* civilians as soon as you tried anything stupid.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2012 2:28:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dude- just because you can get a license and go to a firing range doesn't mean you have perfect situational awareness, judgement and aim.


And just because some criminal buys a gun doesn't mean he has perfect situational awareness, judgment, and aim either.

quote:
The hull of the plane will also likely get shot multiple times from multiple directions as well from those thinking "I got this."


So if you have a chance to protect yourself, or sit there and watch terrorist fly your plane into a building, the consequences of what "might" happen outweighs survival. Brilliant logic.

It's obvious you don't know a damn thing about legally owning a gun, concealed carry permits, or anything related to the topic. The FIRST thing you learn is to never pull the trigger unless you're absolutely certain it's a safe shot, and the target will be hit.

As a legal gun owner and avid shooter, and concealed carry holder, I find your mis-characterization of us very offensive and grounded in ignorance.

quote:
Who knows, in that situation, someone might take the opportunity to shoot a flight attendant because of a missed connection earlier in their travel.


....

This is just beyond offensive and inflammatory.


RE: The TSA is useless
By webstorm1 on 8/3/2012 10:59:05 AM , Rating: 2
I tend to agree that most of the type of people with the wherewithal to get a CCW are probably those that have respect for firearms. Movies have skewed perception of firearms pretty badly. It's a whole lot easier to miss than it is to hit. That's why your run of the mill thug gets taken out without injuring law enforcement in most cases. If you are holding your gun sideways, you are going to miss and possibly hurt your wrist.

I don't buy any of the rhetoric from either camp about guns, but I do believe that an overwhelming majority of gun owners are the safest people with those guns. The crazy we just had went out and bought some guns off the shelf and had no training- a well trained civilian in the right place could have easily subdued him. A chance would have been better than no chance. As long as people are free to move about the country there exists the possibility of mass murder, and if I happen to find myself in a situation I will be grateful for the armed civilians around me. I will be teaching my children about gun safety as soon as they are old enough to learn. I don't agree with Reclaimer on much, but I do agree on this topic. Even though he thinks you are a crazy left winger he wouldn't ever pull his weapon on you, even as a joke.

It is ridiculous to assert someone might try to murder a flight attendant for revenge. If that were a real concern we'd have a lot less aholes in this world for fear of retribution. You can't even punch a jerk in the face these days.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Netjak on 8/6/2012 5:20:33 AM , Rating: 1
Arms for safety? On battle field, yes. But on the streets - no. unarmed man can not easily kill; armed man can do that by accident. why? because it is to easy to pull the triger, even a todler can do that. Go to for clues; see UK, Germany, Japan... there is five or more times less murders per capita than in US.


RE: The TSA is useless
By nolisi on 8/2/2012 12:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
1) Wow- um I'll leave this one alone- there are more paramilitary groups that are at least mildly racist in this country than there are terrorists.

2)The reason why the TSA was likely created was to mitigate personnel limitations in other groups. All you need is for people to identify likely suspects, not years of intelligence training.

3)More bullets != more security. It just guarantees that as soon as one person pulls a gun due to being a disgruntled passenger, more people will pull guns. Which increases the chances of a bullet going through the hull of a plane. Which increases the chances of everyone dying.

Further- I'm pretty certain airlines wouldn't allow it even if the government did anyway. Planes and flight crew are expensive. I'm guessing one of the ways they protect this massive investment is by making sure passengers don't carry even if the government doesn't.


RE: The TSA is useless
By quiksilvr on 8/2/2012 2:40:18 PM , Rating: 1
1) Agreed.
2) Disagree. We needed people with years of intelligence training 11 years ago and the TSA does not fall into this category. Having the FBI and CIA on there along with voice and fingerprint recognition makes more sense.
3) Pseudo disagree. Law abiding citizens with guns + alcohol + potential terrorist next to you = armed terrorist. Armed personnel on board, perhaps guarding the cockpit makes sense. One armed individual (preferably FBI or CIA) makes sense. I'd rather get rid of the TSA entirely and just hire 10,000 armed and trained guards so that each plane is guarded if that means no more metal detectors/dick detectors. In fact, that's probably waaay more efficient and waaay more secure.


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 12:18:52 PM , Rating: 2
"1. Start profiling, it's politically incorrect but it will target the people that are more likely to cause incidents or acts of terrorism."

That doesnt work. The minute they are aware we arent looking at everyone for everything , then a John Walker type that isnt the stereotype will be the one called on to do the deed.

". Eliminate the TSA and have the FBI, CIA, and NSA screen passengers; use facial and voice recognition systems to find people with links to terrorists, gangs, or histories of violence. If any of those 3 organizations are looking for you I don't want to be on a plane with you."

Then the FBI, CIA or NSA will have to deal with the same sisues as the TSA faces. You cant find every nutcase via links to terrorists, gangs, or histories of violence. There are new young people joining the nutbags every day.

"3. Arm the flight crew "

Then there are pilots and stewardesses with armed guns that any well trained militant could potentially disarm? Even without that, if not screening someone will get weapons on the damn planes and turn it into a giant 600mph cruise missile ala 9/11.

Its a way more difficult task than it appears when you look at the details and the reality and nature of the enemy nutjobs. The only thing that can be done is to screen everyone that flies, no exceptions. You also have to randomly inspect old ladies and babies to make sure the nutjubs arent using old ladies and babies to smuggle in weapons.

If you dont like it, then dont fly. There arent any other solutions that work, unfortunately.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 12:49:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then there are pilots and stewardesses with armed guns that any well trained militant could potentially disarm? Even without that, if not screening someone will get weapons on the damn planes and turn it into a giant 600mph cruise missile ala 9/11.


The whole point is to make it much harder to take a plane by force. The passengers and any potential bystanders on the ground stand a far better chance if a hijacking attempt turns into a gun fight in which 10 or 15 people get shot on the plane than if the plane is taken and flown into an office building.

15 people (including the hijackers) dying is better than 3000 people dying.


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 12:54:52 PM , Rating: 2
"The whole point is to make it much harder to take a plane by force."

Agreed. Then no guns on planes. If there are known guns on planes then plans will be made to take the guns and take over. You cant count on potential bystanders. One planefull may have 4-5 and another have none. If the terrorists know the flight crew has weapons, then they will hatch a plot to disarm them. Its a rediculous plan. There are so many holes it's not even funny.

Like I said... Its a way more difficult task than it appears when you look at the details and the reality and nature of the enemy nutjobs. The only thing that can be done is to screen everyone that flies, no exceptions. You also have to randomly inspect old ladies and babies to make sure the nutjubs arent using old ladies and babies to smuggle in weapons.

If you dont like it, then dont fly. There arent any other solutions that work, unfortunately.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/12, Rating: 0
RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/2/2012 3:38:22 PM , Rating: 1
"Sorry retro but your lefty streak is really showing on this one. Using all the standard talking points."

Oy... First off, I am not against guns. I have a freegin Baretta Px4 compact FFS. I just dont think putting them in the hands of the flight crew is a good idea. I said above, in the hands of a law enforcement pro it would be fine, but not pilots and stewardesses. Too easy to take it from them and cause the very problem its designed to defeat. Its just not a smart move. It sounds to me like you are being "pro gun" just to be pro gun and not really thinking about what would actually happen on a plane.


"How? Magic? What would happen is they would stop trying to hijack planes and move on to other targets. That's what would happen."

This would cause them to TRY and hijack. It would actually invite it. Clock them over the head from behind is the first thing that pops into mind. Not very magic or elaborate. Even 4-5 guys simultaneously rushing all stewardesses and now you have a plane full of armed islamo-fundies. Its just not smart. 4-5 stewardesses or flaming stewards with guns is not exactly striking fear in anyones mind. Especially someone that is already willing to die for the cause.

"This is such a typical Liberal viewpoint it's not even funny. You're only safe, apparently, if a Federal employee is armed. NOBODY else can be armed because that would just be crazy, but if the Feds have guns, that's different."

Come on man, stop putting me in that boat. I dont think anything like that, it's not about gun control, its a plane and too easy to take over with a gun.

"This just shows that you don't truly understand the enemy, and are applying White man's Western thinking to the problem."

I thought that is what you were doing ;)

Dood, its a fucked up situation and difficult as hell to deal with, but you jsut cant put weapons in the hands of stewardesses and expect that not to SCREAM - easy target.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Manch on 8/2/2012 5:38:54 PM , Rating: 2
I say arm the pilots. They have the secure doors on the cockpits. A lot of them are former military pilots and know how to handle a weapon. Those that dont, well train them! Air Marshall's are on random planes, so you never know who in the cabin is armed. I do agree that the stewardesses should not be armed. They can be too easily distracted, and have to constantly reach over people while serving etc. You could have a gun safe that can only be released by the pilot on the plane tho.

As far as passengers being armed, I think enforcing conditions upon them carrying on the plane would serve as a nice balance between everyone's concerns.

No alcohol
no bullet in the chamber, safety on
Aisle seat only
Must attend briefing/training yearly/as needed to ensure they are aware of the latest guidelines, etc.
They cannot advertise the fact that they have a weapon.
restrict bullet types to rat shot, plastic or other riot/"non-lethal"/less than lethal ammo.**these munitions are quite lethal and effective at close range, but have much less chance ricochet, and other secondary injuries. Also they wont breach the cabin.

Plastic bullets have been used by riot police to prevent ricochets.

I use rat shot up in my loft at my farm. Great for killing snakes too. No holes in it yet. I bet SLJ wish he had some!


RE: The TSA is useless
By retrospooty on 8/3/2012 12:35:25 PM , Rating: 2
"I say arm the pilots. They have the secure doors on the cockpits. A lot of them are former military pilots and know how to handle a weapon. "

That works. The other good thing, is they are behind secured doors, so no-one could just sneak up and clock them on the head and disarm them.


RE: The TSA is useless
By GreenEnvt on 8/2/2012 1:05:55 PM , Rating: 2
You think in the post 9/11 days that if someone tries to hijack a plane with a knife or similar (since no guns should be able to get on planes), that the passengers are going to sit idly by?
If I'm on a plane and someone or a group of people try that, I'm going to try and stop them. The passengers greatly outnumber and potential hijackers.

Even if the guy had a gun, you can only shoot so many people before you're overwhelmed.


RE: The TSA is useless
By sviola on 8/2/2012 1:30:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even if the guy had a gun, you can only shoot so many people before you're overwhelmed.


They only need too shoot down one person, and all the rest will stay quiet.

You and the OP seem to think the ordinary citizen is brave and have the will and skills to disarm an armed terrorist. Well, living in a city that is among one of the most violent in the world, I can tell you that's not the norm. People will shy in fear and stay put, waiting to be released free of harm. Take for instance bank robberies: how many have you heard of that the average person in line fought back, disarmed the criminals and took care of the situation?


RE: The TSA is useless
By Digimonkey on 8/2/2012 2:10:48 PM , Rating: 2
Yes but if said bank robbers were notorious for blowing up banks along with hostages after the robbery then you have a scenario much like a plane hijacking. The idea is I have a chance if I fight back, if I don't fight back death is almost certain.


RE: The TSA is useless
By bodar on 8/2/2012 3:36:44 PM , Rating: 2
Back when hijackers were most likely trying to redirect the plane to Cuba or something, yes. However, after 9/11, passengers are far more likely to assume that if the terrorists are not stopped, they are going to slam the plane into a building.

Not to mention, some passengers DID fight back on 9/11. Do you seriously not recall this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Fligh...


RE: The TSA is useless
By JediJeb on 8/2/2012 4:08:50 PM , Rating: 2
Glad someone brought that up! The average citizen doesn't make waves when it could rock their boat, but when the boat is already turning over, they will do whatever is needed to try and stop it.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Manch on 8/2/12, Rating: 0
RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/12, Rating: 0
RE: The TSA is useless
By Ringold on 8/2/12, Rating: 0
RE: The TSA is useless
By foolsgambit11 on 8/2/2012 3:36:46 PM , Rating: 2
When I flew out of Tel Aviv (granted, this was during the second Intifada), every single passenger had to strip down to their underwear, and get the fingers inside my waistband treatment. Luggage was fully searched by hand, and I had my hair trimmer confiscated and fully disassembled (it never worked right after that). I was a clean-cut white boy. Maybe they do it by profiling now, but they will also do intensive security screens of every passenger on every plane, depending on the threat level.

And they still won't allow an average citizen to carry a gun on a flight, because it's an asinine idea.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Ringold on 8/3/2012 12:47:08 PM , Rating: 2
I think you nailed it by pointing out it was during the second intifada. The media occasionally, usually during election years, has some of their top security folks over for interviews, where they preach the gospel of profiling + strong intelligence being the primary ways they secure their airports .. and country.


RE: The TSA is useless
By ritualm on 8/2/2012 3:09:40 PM , Rating: 1
RE: The TSA is useless
By Ringold on 8/3/2012 12:50:18 PM , Rating: 2
For those too lazy to read a very good article:

quote:
"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.

"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport." That, in a nutshell is "Israelification" - a system that protects life and limb without annoying you to death.


Facts are facts, it works for them with less of this nonsense.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Jeffk464 on 8/2/2012 1:57:25 PM , Rating: 2
"allow citizens with concealed carry permits that are valid in both the departure and destination states to carry firearms on planes."

You know its hard enought to keep cops from being trigger happy. Do you really want every wannabe cop(zimmermans of the world) running around with concealed weapons, especially in a confined pressurized tube.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Jeffk464 on 8/2/2012 2:00:50 PM , Rating: 2
That being said, I would say profiling is definitely in order. How much sense does it make to focus on the 65 year Japanese woman and let the 22 year old Muslim man to walk by as he is saying alla akbar.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 2:12:12 PM , Rating: 2
I going to guess by your statements all you know about guns you learned from watching movies and that you do not have a concealed carry permit. The gun is the absolute last resort and can only be used in DEFENSE of yourself or someone else. Openly threatening someone with it or pulling it out to escalate the tension in a situation is brandishing firearm and is illegal.


RE: The TSA is useless
By sviola on 8/2/2012 2:29:45 PM , Rating: 1
You describe what people should do, not what they really do. If people were to act as expected, there would be no need for law enforcement at all (certainly not the TSA). But that's not the case, just watch the news and you see shootings, murders, hijacks and other things.


RE: The TSA is useless
By MrBungle123 on 8/2/2012 2:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
Sure people use firearms for illegal purposes all the time.. how many of the criminals are concealed carry permit holders? Virtually none because a criminal will not be able to pass the background checks to get the permit.


RE: The TSA is useless
By jeffkro on 8/2/2012 3:40:54 PM , Rating: 2
Or they aren't a criminal up until they use their gun


RE: The TSA is useless
By jeffkro on 8/2/2012 3:38:39 PM , Rating: 3
Its also assuming the gun owner will be rational 100% of the time for the time they own the gun.


RE: The TSA is useless
By EricMartello on 8/2/2012 5:51:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. Start profiling, it's politically incorrect but it will target the people that are more likely to cause incidents or acts of terrorism.


Agreed. The stop & frisk thing has been working wonderfully in New York.

quote:
Eliminate the TSA and have the FBI, CIA, and NSA screen passengers; use facial and voice recognition systems to find people with links to terrorists, gangs, or histories of violence. If any of those 3 organizations are looking for you I don't want to be on a plane with you.


I agree with the first part about eliminating the TSA. I do not agree that we should involve the other federal agencies and continue the passenger screenings.

The reality is that sooner or later someone is going to slip by all of these countermeasures and sneak a weapon or bomb onto a plane. Rather than take the "everyone is a threat" approach, they should simply improve the options for dealing with a threat if it presents itself on the plane.

quote:
Arm the flight crew and allow citizens with concealed carry permits that are valid in both the departure and destination states to carry firearms on planes. Law abiding citizens are not the issue and if faced with a hijacking situation then they should have the option of taking matters into thier own hands.


Partially agreed, however they should not be armed with standard guns. The crew should be armed with less-than-lethal weapons such as rubber bullets, stun gun, tranquilizer gun, etc. The crew should also be trained to deal with said threats quickly and efficiently so if it does happen they do not panic.

I do not think allowing passengers to carry loaded guns on flights is smart because the average person is an idiot. Knowing you have a gun means you are going to alter your behavior based on your willingness to use said gun.

A "law abiding" citizen who has never dealt with a high stress situation would likely cause more harm than good if allowed to carry a weapon on a confined area like a plane...also, people snap and they may just decided to do that on a plane.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/12, Rating: 0
RE: The TSA is useless
By EricMartello on 8/2/2012 8:23:22 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And let me clue you in on something, on 911 there was a plane full of these "stupid idiot law abiding citizens", and when they heard what was happening, rose up and stopped the terrorists from flying that plane into the White House, our nations capital. With very little time to act and NO training, they prevented a further catastrophe that day.


So you're using 9/11 to justify allowing CCW carriers to bring guns onto planes? To what end? A shootout on an airplane? You're giving a lot of credit to a basic fight-or-flight response common to most creatures living on this planet. Obviously on an airplane flight, aka avoidance, is not an option so you really only have one choice of action - fight.

I don't have a problem with the 2nd Amendment and I am not against people buying, owning and carrying guns so long as it is not in some situation where some idiot with a gun is likely to cause more trouble than good. There is no intelligence quotient for receiving a CCW.

quote:
If you weren't being such a condescending cynical asshole, you would be surprised how well ordinary people can respond to extraordinary situations when given a chance. We're not all a bunch of hapless idiots waiting for someone to act for us.


By condescending, cynical a5shole you mean "consistently logically and factually accurate" then I appreciate the note. People don't like the truth and often vilify those who speak it.

I am not surprised that people still have an instinctual drive for self preservation...but yeah, most people are hapless idiots who would rather wait for someone else to intervene rather than saving themselves...and arming these idiots isn't going to improve the situation.


RE: The TSA is useless
By Reclaimer77 on 8/3/12, Rating: 0
RE: The TSA is useless
By EricMartello on 8/3/2012 1:11:41 AM , Rating: 2
People like me? I'm not dumb enough to believe cops or any other law enforcement is there to save my a55 in the nick of time just like in the movies. The cops show up AFTER the fact so I am prepared to fight if necessary, or run if the odds are not in my favor.

The average person is not going to stand up and fight for themselves, especially in an airline hijacking situation and suggesting that CCW allow people to bring their weapons onto airplanes is just a bad idea across the board. As I said, the only weapons on the airplane should be non-lethal types that incapacitate or cause pain.

I do not think the TSA should exist. I do not even think we need the Dept. of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act needs to be purged from record. These things are all big government and if you followed any of my postings you'd probably note that I am not a fan of big government in any way shape or form.


"We can't expect users to use common sense. That would eliminate the need for all sorts of legislation, committees, oversight and lawyers." -- Christopher Jennings














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