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Move draws criticism from some analysts

Remember those allegations by browser makers Google Inc. (GOOG) and the Mozilla Foundation, alleging that Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) wasn't giving them full access to necessary interfaces in Windows 8?

Well, the European Union sure remembers.  Not too long after it admonished Microsoft for breaking its browser ballot box promises and threatened more fines, it announced a new probe into whether Microsoft was impeding competition.

The browser makers have suggested that Microsoft may be effectively banning third-party browsers from Windows 8 RT.  Microsoft has denied this claim.

Surprisingly, typically pro-Apple, Inc. (AAPL) blogger John Gruber blasted the probe in a post on his blog Daring Fireball.  The unlikely ally points out that Apple has a near identical model of differentiation and has received little EU scrutiny, writing:

So Apple can do it with iOS but Microsoft can’t with Windows RT, despite the fact that the iPad and iPhone are selling tens of millions of units per quarter and there is yet to ship a single Windows RT device?

With that said, even unlikely allies may be unable to save Microsoft as the EU salivates at the prospect of collect more billion-dollar fines from the beleagured operating system giant.

Sources: Daring Fireball, Reuters



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This is ridiculous
By themaster08 on 7/19/2012 5:37:06 PM , Rating: 5
It's not Microsoft's inability to innovate that's their problem. Their problem is everything they do is scrutinised down to the bone. How are they supposed to put out a competitive product when they're bound by this crap?

All of these lawsuits and probes are damaging the industry. Fuck off and let the free market decide.




RE: This is ridiculous
By bug77 on 7/19/12, Rating: -1
RE: This is ridiculous
By Manch on 7/19/2012 6:09:43 PM , Rating: 5
So is MS to have no protection of its code? This is getting ridiculous. This is Windows RT for christ sake! Not Windows 8. Are they going to go after Win Phone 8 too?

Why doesnt the EU go after google for its search engine "monopoly"?

EU money grab. Gotta find someway to pay for all that socialist crap


RE: This is ridiculous
By superPC on 7/19/2012 6:25:28 PM , Rating: 3
they did go after google for the search engine monopoly ( http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2... ).


RE: This is ridiculous
By Manch on 7/20/2012 4:42:43 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, did not know that, thanks. Are they going to make them put a Bing and Yahoo bar underneath theres? ;)


RE: This is ridiculous
By vXv on 7/20/2012 4:53:52 AM , Rating: 2
No the complaint is that the search engine prefers google's own services (gmail, google+, google maps, etc) over the ones from the competition in search results.

Which means Google abuses it search "monopoly" to reach other markets (the same as MS did with bundling IE and WMP in Windows).


RE: This is ridiculous
By Manch on 7/20/2012 5:13:54 AM , Rating: 2
I was joking bro. Still, now that youve told me this are they going to force google to show its competitors sevices in its results?

I did a search for translate and of course googletranslate popped up but so did microsofttranslate and several others.

IE only has just under 25%, chrome has 27%, firfox 19 according to wiki. So now that they have destroyed MS grip on web browsers, why is this still an issue? EU is coming after them about the ballot box which was accidentally disabled, and fixed quickly.


RE: This is ridiculous
By vXv on 7/20/2012 5:56:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I was joking bro. Still, now that youve told me this are they going to force google to show its competitors sevices in its results?

I did a search for translate and of course googletranslate popped up but so did microsofttranslate and several others.


I just told you what the complaint and the investigation is about. I cannot predict which action (if any) the EU commission will take ... we will have to wait and see ;)

quote:
IE only has just under 25%, chrome has 27%, firfox 19 according to wiki. So now that they have destroyed MS grip on web browsers, why is this still an issue? EU is coming after them about the ballot box which was accidentally disabled, and fixed quickly.


It is not about IE's marketshare but Windows's. i.e as long as Windows has a dominant position in the market there is potential for abusing it. So they are investigating whether this is the case with Windows 8 / RT.

As for the ballot screen they had a contract and broke it hence the commission's reaction. Just because they are looking into it does not mean it will result into fines (per law those can be as height as 10% of the yearly revenue).


RE: This is ridiculous
By maugrimtr on 7/20/2012 8:38:15 AM , Rating: 3
Thanks for the last sentence in the article. For a moment, I almost though it would be an objective article. The EU has antitrust laws, which means those breaking the laws are fined. Microsoft keeps finding ways to break those laws and then spending lots of money trying to escape justice.

It has nothing to do with the EU budget, socialism (which many appear from the comments not to even understand since the US is a socialist nation unless I imagine all the social services provided), or corruption (see EU Courts please).

If MS break the law, as a monopoly enacting monopolistic barriers to competition, they will be investigated and fined appropriately.


RE: This is ridiculous
By lightfoot on 7/20/2012 11:03:48 AM , Rating: 2
Fines of 10% of global sales.

When they are applying fines to sales that occur outside their jurisdiction, they are NOT appropriate. Why should EU courts get to collect fines on sales that occur in the US?? Should the US be able to fine Airbus for sales made to France?? It is insane, and it is NOT appropriate.


RE: This is ridiculous
By othercents on 7/20/2012 11:54:29 AM , Rating: 2
Simple Solution... Scrap Windows 8 RT, or at least don't distribute it in the UK. Move to Windows Tablet 8 to differentiate the products. Now you will have Windows 8, Windows Tablet 8, and Windows Phone 8.

Other


RE: This is ridiculous
By jonmcc33 on 7/20/2012 8:34:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So now that they have destroyed MS grip on web browsers...


Microsoft never made any money off of it's web browser.


RE: This is ridiculous
By bug77 on 7/19/2012 9:06:55 PM , Rating: 3
They're not required to disclose their code. Only their APIs. Can you sense the difference?
Using undocumented APIs is akin to letting drivers take the standard route, while you take the shortcut. And you only know about the shortcut because you built the roads in the first place.


RE: This is ridiculous
By Manch on 7/20/2012 4:54:30 AM , Rating: 2
gotcha, but still, this is RT we're talking about, not Windows Vista/7/8. RT has 0 market share and theyre coming after them? Does apple and google share all api's for their mobile offerings? This just seems like a money grab to me.


RE: This is ridiculous
By bug77 on 7/20/2012 7:29:44 AM , Rating: 1
It could be a money grab, but it's not without reason.
In a way, it's better the investigation started when it did, as it avoids MS having to pay anything retroactively. Or, they may choose to level the playing field and walk out unscathed.


RE: This is ridiculous
By rcc on 7/23/2012 1:04:54 PM , Rating: 2
If I built the road, and paid for it, it's mine. Time to put up barricades and keep the commuters the he#@ off it.


RE: This is ridiculous
By BZDTemp on 7/20/2012 7:20:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
EU money grab. Gotta find someway to pay for all that socialist crap


Total ignorance. The EU is 500 million people exactly what sort of impact do you figure the fines given to Microsoft has?

You should be glad the EU is trying to make sure Microsoft can't use their control of the OS market to take over the browser market (it's not like Microsoft ain't doing their best - try using Sharepoint for instance and you'll see how that pushes IE). It's up to Microsoft if they run into fines or chose not to abuse their market position (again).

Oh, and with regards to that socialist crap. I live in a place where education is free, health care is free, nobody lives on the street, a working week is 37 hours and 5 weeks paid vacation is a minimum. And yes, we may have the tax world record but someone with a McJob pulls in something like $3000 a month so it is okay. Also we export way more than we import, unemployment is low and your politicians aren't in the pocket of any companies. Life is good.


RE: This is ridiculous
By Manch on 7/20/2012 12:17:31 PM , Rating: 1
Whats the cost of living in your socialist utopia?

Where I temporarily live, the people take holidays in other countries where they can afford to go on a vacation, and a lot of them leave to go get medical services elsewhere bc they would rather pay than wait and hope it doesn't get worse while they wait forever to see a specialist. My landlord left to get treated for cancer because he said he would die if he waited on the medical facilities here to see him.

How many EU countries are being financially crushed and require bailouts or whatever they call them over here?

enjoy your comfort lemming, Ill enjoy my freedom :D


RE: This is ridiculous
By jvillaro on 7/20/2012 2:14:58 PM , Rating: 2
At least your sense of freedom


RE: This is ridiculous
By jvillaro on 7/20/2012 2:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
Oh and by the way, he also enjoys his freedom (and has more time to do so)


RE: This is ridiculous
By BZDTemp on 7/21/2012 2:45:18 PM , Rating: 2
Who says this place is socialist?

And if you think people here can't afford vacations then you're ill informed. Also it is not like people go elsewhere to get medical treatment, nor is it so that if someone looses their job they are in fear of loosing medical coverage for their family.

Sure there are EU countries in trouble but they are getting help. It is not like we don't face the same issues as everyone else outside of China or have it perhaps escaped you how California is close to bankrupt or that Detroit aren't doing too well.

Enjoy your freedom but if you think of us as Lemmings you're mistaken (you're actually twice mistaken because Lemmings aren't like that old Disney movie made them out to be).


RE: This is ridiculous
By Manch on 7/22/2012 9:50:17 AM , Rating: 2
Well, you inferred it with your "regards to that socialist crap" reply.

I didnt say they couldnt afford to go on vacation, I said they go to other countries so they can afford it. Big difference.

An yes people do leave to get treatment Its quite common here,since its cheaper, but especially since its no waiting.

You think 3000 a month for a McJob is OK?

Cali and Detroit are in the same boat because of all of the entitlement/socialist/union crap they pile on the citizens. Thats why the jobs have left those places. You were expecting me to defend them? They are going to bury themselves and pull the areas around them down too. It will be no different with the countries the EU is bailing out. Eventually it will pull everything down around it.

Way to split hairs and not answer any questions though.

BTW you're mistaken. I wasnt calling you a rodent. Im not cruel to animals.

Lemming: a member of any large group following an unthinking course towards mass destruction

Some words have more than one definition.


RE: This is ridiculous
By TheJian on 7/21/2012 6:46:54 PM , Rating: 1
To each his own. I'd rather have the chance to live in a mansion one day. You have NONE. I'd rather have the chance to be a millionaire. Again, spreading the wealth means you have NO billionaires. Speaking of which 3000+ Millionaires have left America since Obama took office. They'll be starting a business OUTSIDE of America with their wealth thanks to Obama care and the coming financial cliff. I wouldn't look for them to come to your town BDZ ;)

I'm shocked people elected a radical muslim terrorist into the white house. He will stop at nothing to destroy our country all in the name of social economic justice/fairness. Food stamps for Mexico anyone?...LOL. Meanwhile, his brother lives in a TENT!...LOL. No help for BRO eh? Obama has grown the govt 77,000 jobs, while the private sector BLEEDS. Thank Obama care for all the new IRS agents they're hiring to keep chasing all of us...LOL.
http://www.infowars.com/thousands-of-new-irs-agent...
You can google the crap out of that too, as the above came up in the many links on this.
Obama made 2.7million in offshore accounts/income...Hmmm. He's blown billions on companies like Solyndra, Fisker (nothing like closing american plants and moving it all to friends in Finland...LOL), etc, ran up 6 trillion after leaving Chicago broke (40+billion in debt when he left, and a deficit of 635mil this year...LOL).

On the other hand, Romney MADE a good 315 million without the govt and gave his entire father's inheritance to charity...LOL. Obama only knows how to give YOUR money away. He doesn't donate more than a few measly bucks himself, but you can sign up to give him your wedding money:
"It's a great way to support the President on your big day," it continues. "Plus, it's a gift that we can all appreciate -- and goes a lot further than a gravy bowl."

When signing up, supporters are asked to set a monetary goal. The site also provides some suggested language to use when hitting up friends and relatives for campaign cash.

You can google the crap out of pissed off brides or just start watching fox :)
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/22/obama-c...

I digress...


RE: This is ridiculous
By brucek2 on 7/19/2012 6:51:53 PM , Rating: 2
Far from being a market leader, Microsoft is currently barely an also-ran in the mobile device market. The time to spend a lot of public funds and regulatory attention is when someone has attained a monopoly / clear dominance, not when they are in distant last place and barely relevant.

Now if you expand from just the portable market that 8 RT is aimed at, to computing devices generally, IE is then up to something like 50% browser share (but dropping.) But that 50% is nowhere near close enough to dominate internet standards and so also doesn't seem worthy of government action.


RE: This is ridiculous
By BZDTemp on 7/20/2012 7:27:48 AM , Rating: 1
Microsoft has a history of abusing their position so it seems prudent that they are being watched. Note that no action against Microsoft has been taken in this matter and non will be taken unless called for.

This is no different than say doing an inspection at an oil company's rigs to ensure they aren't polluting the water. It is much better to make sure no mess is made rather than having to clean up afterwards.


RE: This is ridiculous
By knutjb on 7/19/2012 9:52:16 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
M$ has a long history of using undocumented APIs just for their own products. Not only are those APIs undocumented, but 3rd parties are also barred from decompiling and learning for themselves. I don't see how that's not anticompetitive.
To decompile and "figure it out" is reverse engineering and illegal without the owners consent, like it or not. Read the EULA sometime.

The line the EU has drawn leans heavily towards a revenue source. Then MS is forced to let the cat out of the bag and now your MS device has new huge security holes. Then everyone complains how insecure it is. At what point does MS no longer have the right to protect its creations?

When is Apple going to get hit? They do have very deep pockets...

You want to do whatever, go Linux.


RE: This is ridiculous
By sprockkets on 7/19/2012 11:50:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
To decompile and "figure it out" is reverse engineering and illegal without the owners consent, like it or not. Read the EULA sometime.


No it is not. At the end of every EULA is a disclaimer which reminds people that regardless of what the EULA states, it cannot supersede the law of your state or country.


RE: This is ridiculous
By Laitainion on 7/20/2012 4:13:05 AM , Rating: 2
And in what countries do you possess the legel right to decompile and reverse engineer another company's products?

If there is no law or judicial ruling stating otherwise then the EULA isn't superceding the law but is acting in a supplementary manner and thus totally binding.


RE: This is ridiculous
By vXv on 7/20/2012 6:08:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And in what countries do you possess the legel right to decompile and reverse engineer another company's products?


In all member states of the European union, as long as the decompiling / reverse engineering is done for interoperability reasons.

As for other countries read: http://lwn.net/Articles/134642/


RE: This is ridiculous
By someguy123 on 7/20/2012 2:00:31 AM , Rating: 2
The claims don't seem to be substantiated here. It's basically devs complaining that microsoft is hiding something. They already floated around a rumor about other browsers being banned altogether from RT, and now they're complaining about windows 8 in general.

The EU is just jumping on this complaint because they're looking for any reason to fine microsoft, since it means big payouts.


RE: This is ridiculous
By BZDTemp on 7/20/2012 12:12:37 PM , Rating: 2
The EU isn't a bunch of mobsters so stop being stupid.

The whole notion that handing out fines to Microsoft in any way can finance the EU is stupid. Maybe you should spend a few moments and read about the EU to learn what it is. If you do you'll will for instance learn that the EU is 500+ million people thus any Microsoft payout do not matter other than to make Microsoft play fair.


RE: This is ridiculous
By someguy123 on 7/20/2012 3:34:35 PM , Rating: 2
What does any of that rant have to do with an easy billion dollar fine? Regardless of the population of the EU, a billion dollars going into the EU is a lot of money, especially with the eurozone in shambles right now. I see no other reason to so heavily embrace to the point of "massive probing" a set of complaints when windows 8 isn't even out the door.


RE: This is ridiculous
By themaster08 on 7/20/2012 2:04:34 AM , Rating: 3
Similar to how Google refuses to provide Microsoft with the APIs to develop a YouTube application for Windows Phone?


RE: This is ridiculous
By sprockkets on 7/21/2012 8:51:52 PM , Rating: 2
The only part missing is the HQ request feature for mobile streams. Everything else is documented clearly on their api instruction page.

Still not 100%, so i agree with you, but they are not really blocking them out either.


RE: This is ridiculous
By Da W on 7/19/2012 10:07:12 PM , Rating: 2
EU will lose this one.

The relevant market won't be PCs since Windows RT is squarely targetting the iPAD. The market is more "tablet or small form factor devices using an ARM architecture SOC." Microsoft has zero market share to this point, Apple has 65%, if Microsoft can't do it then Apple won't be able either.


RE: This is ridiculous
By themaster08 on 7/20/2012 2:10:59 AM , Rating: 2
Good point. Furthermore, Internet Explorer's market share has declined over the years. Chrome has taken over I.E. The free market have already spoken. How are Microsoft supposed to compete? Are the EU really that out of touch?

Of course Microsoft are going to bundle their own browser with their own operating system. In the same way they bundle their own media player, their own file browser, their own notepad, their own photo viewer, their own snipping tool... Where does it end? Don't like it? Download another browser? Still feel passionate about it? Buy a friggin' Mac! This is damaging Microsoft and damaging the industry.


RE: This is ridiculous
By Helbore on 7/20/2012 6:00:19 AM , Rating: 2
Never underestimate the stupidity, pig-headedness or general greed of the European Commission.


RE: This is ridiculous
By xdrol on 7/20/2012 6:04:24 AM , Rating: 2
Loose what?

This is a probe - an investigation, not a trial (at least, not yet). How exactly can you "loose" an investigation?


RE: This is ridiculous
By stimudent on 7/20/2012 12:16:11 AM , Rating: 2
The free market is not as free as we would like to believe. The ones with the most money will a lot of times skillfully and quietly make sure that everyone else plays by their rules.


RE: This is ridiculous
By vXv on 7/20/2012 2:35:54 AM , Rating: 2
I can't see how a operating system that allows other browser vendors to have access to all required APIs will make MS not competitive. In fact it adds value compared to iOS which does not allow that.

So no "this crap" will not kill off Windows RT.


RE: This is ridiculous
By NellyFromMA on 7/20/2012 10:36:57 AM , Rating: 2
This is such a goddamn joke. Why is Apple not held to the same standard? It isn't Microsoft's duty support help their competitors any more than it is their competitors job to help Microsoft. Hasn't it been long enough where we can say Microsoft doesn't have the supposed 'monopoly' it once had? Wth, I hate this and it's terrible for consumers because they are butchering the overall BEST OS SOFTWWARE COMPANY (yep, I said it, and its pretty clear too if you look at software adoption) just so Euro companies have an easier time. All in the name of 'fairness'; fairness meaning people with less talent have a level playing field when in fact, they already do. The browser wars are so counter productive to web innovation and standardization. -_-


RE: This is ridiculous
By Zuul on 7/20/2012 2:04:55 PM , Rating: 2
They're going to start investigating a product that isn't on the market yet... interesting. I would've waited for them to breach an agreement by selling Windows 8 before I started action.

Well, I guess they do have to find money from somewhere to bail out Greece and Spain.


RE: This is ridiculous
By TheJian on 7/21/2012 5:57:28 PM , Rating: 1
You guys are missing the point. They are well known for abusing their monopoly (yes, as charged by the good ole USA - AND CONVICTED as a MONOPOLY) in an attempt to dominate other markets. While I hate the EU they're actually doing a good job here (MS ignored the law, and broke their agreement). Unlike the US they appear to have a better patent system and laws they actually enforce. Holy cow! Meanwhile Obama hasn't held ONE job council meeting in this year, but has had 100+ fund raisers, golfed 10+ times, has time for kisses at basketball games etc. But according to Jay Carney (white house press sec.), Obama has a full plate...ROFLMAO. True, he's been meeting with everyone to take away your rights instead of doing his job. Did I mention the debt he's run up? 6 tril? It took us 200 years to do what he's done in 3.5!

Back to MS; I'm afraid they don't know how to innovate any more. They merely change icons, or place them behind yet another layer of clicks and slow us all down while charging the same price again and again for precious little in advancements. Windows Explorer is a freaking mess in both Win7/Vista (bring back XP's file explorer!). An OS that can't handle files/folders properly? What the heck do I need shortcuts to nowhere all over the drive for? Libraries? For what? Another mess. The only thing they got right in it was hiding empty drives and I can already do that many ways on my own...LOL. Thank god for xyplorer (for 64 bit) and Total Commander (very good in 32bit - just got out of beta for 64 with v8.x I think). Xyplorer has been 64bit since the beginning.

Mick, are you not a native American? As in english is your 2nd language or what? Don't you have a preview on your posts forced on you too?...ROFL. I'm not usually a grammar nazi (hate them) but my god man, read your posts before you hit the post button. I can't remember when I read through an article from you without having to re-read a sentence or two because something just didn't make sense.

"With that said, even unlikely allies may be unable to save Microsoft as the EU salivates at the prospect of collect more billion-dollar fines from the beleagured operating system giant."

No spell checker either? Work on that ENGRISH please...LOL. Use MS Word or something, hell even a browser's checker would catch most of your stuff. Aren't you a college grad? If english is your 2nd language I guess I apologize. Since you're so political these days, where's the article on Obama/Clinton voting to trash our gun rights next week via a treaty? Iran was invited to lead it in NY...WTF? The batman movie shooting wouldn't have happened in TX/AZ. He would have gotten one shot off, then been promptly shot by 5-10 people (more?) PACKING 9mm's in the theater. No I don't count it when govt officials acting like jacka$$es get shot in Tuscon... :) That's merely a mini revolution. Note the gun laws in Chicago aren't working at all. It's illegal to carry a 9mm on to your porch, yet murder is through the roof. Who's in the top 10 for cities?...LOL:
http://www.areavibes.com/library/10-cities-lowest-...

You'll see people in both states packing right into walmart in plain site. When Katrina people were ripping us off in TX (before I moved to AZ :)) the cops came on the news to tell us to "ARM YOURSELVES!". TX has an express lane to the needle too ;) Coincidence crime is low in cities where you can pack a 9mm in plain site into walmart etc?...LOL. NOPE. Fear keeps idiots from acting stupid here. That guy standing next to you in line is likely carrying a glock in TX/AZ. TX has 10+ in the top 100...ROFL. AZ has a ton in there also (yay!). We chase out the illegals too :) Fast and Furious backfired so now Obama is going to backdoor our gun rights away through the treaty. Our president is a Terrorist working to break our economy. No article? Batman is a tech movie no (they have games...:))? I say STAND YOUR GROUND people! Which BTW rarely works without a gun in your hand. :) Just ask the 71 people in Colorado. Running doesn't work either apparently (well duh!). ARM YOURSELVES, or fall victim to the next wacko.


"Well, there may be a reason why they call them 'Mac' trucks! Windows machines will not be trucks." -- Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer














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