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NVIDIA says it loves Linux, but makes no promises to support

In a profane tirade last week Linus Torvalds -- Linux's "benevolent dictator for life" -- showed no interest in taking the moral higher ground, singling out Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) and Apple, Inc. (AAPL) with profane jabs.

But NVIDIA Corp. (NVDA) received the worst beating, with Mr. Torvalds calling the graphics and system-on-a-chip maker the worst company he's ever dealt with and telling it, "NVIDIA: F--k you!" (accompanied by a corresponding profane gesture)

NVIDIA's public relations department has doubtless been receiving plenty of calls and emails about this and the company today responded, writing:

Supporting Linux is important to NVIDIA, and we understand that there are people who are as passionate about Linux as an open source platform as we are passionate about delivering an awesome GPU experience. 

Recently, there have been some questions raised about our lack of support for our Optimus notebook technology. When we launched our Optimus notebook technology, it was with support for Windows 7 only. The open source community rallied to work around this with support from the Bumblebee Open Source Project http://bumblebee-project.org/. And as a result, we've recently made Installer and readme changes in our R295 drivers that were designed to make interaction with Bumblebee easier. 

While we understand that some people would prefer us to provide detailed documentation on all of our GPU internals, or be more active in Linux kernel community development discussions, we have made a decision to support Linux on our GPUs by leveraging NVIDIA common code, rather than the Linux common infrastructure. While this may not please everyone, it does allow us to provide the most consistent GPU experience to our customers, regardless of platform or operating system. 

As a result: 

1) Linux end users benefit from same-day support for new GPUs , OpenGL version and extension parity between NVIDIA Windows and NVIDIA Linux support, and OpenGL performance parity between NVIDIA Windows and NVIDIA Linux. 

2) We support a wide variety of GPUs on Linux, including our latest GeForce, Quadro, and Tesla-class GPUs, for both desktop and notebook platforms. Our drivers for these platforms are updated regularly, with seven updates released so far this year for Linux alone. The latest Linux drivers can be downloaded from www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html. 

3) We are a very active participant in the ARM Linux kernel. For the latest 3.4 ARM kernel – the next-gen kernel to be used on future Linux, Android, and Chrome distributions – NVIDIA ranks second in terms of total lines changed and fourth in terms of number of changesets for all employers or organizations. 

At the end of the day, providing a consistent GPU experience across multiple platforms for all of our customers continues to be one of our key goals.

In other words, NVIDIA says it loves Linux and will provide same day support for the drivers used by the majority of users.  It defends its Optimus track record, writing that while it chose to initially only implement the laptop power-savings technology on Windows 7, it did update the driver installer/readme to be more friendly with the open source community's third-party (Bumblebee) work around.

This recap likely isn't going to placate Mr. Torvalds who feels that NVIDIA should open source its drivers and GPU architecture, rather than continue with proprietary drivers, which sometimes leave out Linux on select features (like Optimus).  Of course, maybe he's suffering from a bit of an entitlement issue -- after all Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) basically refuses to play ball at all offering little to no drivers support for Linux.

Linus Torvalds uncensored
Linus Torvalds' message to NVIDIA [Image Source: YouTube]

NVIDIA does owe a fair deal to Linux.  A large share of its scientific computing (CUDA GPU compute) users primarily run on Linux clusters/supercomputers.  And NVIDIA's burgeoning Tegra system-on-a-chip line has been driven by the strong sales of Google Inc.'s (GOOG) Android -- a Linux distribution.  That said, as the old saying goes, you'll attract more flies with honey than vinegar.  Perhaps Mr. Torvalds should keep that in mind.

Source: Phoronix


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Profanity
By immortalsly on 6/20/2012 11:38:07 AM , Rating: 5
I'm not trying to defend nVidia, Microsoft, Apple, etc. but I just can't get over the image of Linus/finger. Am I in the minority in thinking that no matter how upset you are, no matter who you think have done you wrong, no matter how much hatred you have for someone, you should never resort to profanity? Especially in a public forum and from a public figure.

What comes to mind is that this is just a publicity stunt. But Linus isn't a Howard Stern, is he? Linus is opinionated. But I've always thought of him as intelligently opinionated. Is he resorting to this "shock jock" method just to get attention?




RE: Profanity
By Mitch101 on 6/20/2012 11:51:12 AM , Rating: 5
While I know some very good people in Linux who are open minded and helpful there is a certain degree of anger and arrogance from those in the Linux community. For me it comes as no surprise from their creator who through the same means was his fuel to develop Linux.

I can honestly say every time Ive tried to embrace linux a few of these nut cases make me lose interest.


RE: Profanity
By WalksTheWalk on 6/20/2012 12:56:14 PM , Rating: 2
I think your experience is the noisy minority of Linux users. I've been using Linux off and on for about ten years and have had excellent dealings with most other Linux and Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) people. Like anything else, there is a noisy minority that get their panties in a bunch over small things.

In this case, it's unprofessional to publicly curse out NVIDIA. FOSS means just that and the licensing many times doesn't require contributing back to the projects if the source is modified. Sure it's the Good Samaritan thing to do, but if they want to require contributions back to the projects then don't make it them FOSS.

A lot of FOSS people were pissed with Apple for taking FreeBSD and making MacOS X out of it without contributing back, but the world moved on and so will Linus.


RE: Profanity
By chrispyski on 6/20/2012 2:25:00 PM , Rating: 5
Too True. I've often found that flame-baiting Linux forums is more likely to get an answer with a problem than asking an honest question. Just start you post with "Linux is crap! I can't even do 'x' like I could in windows 95"

Amid the flurry of insults that follows lies the answer to your problem...


RE: Profanity
By Ammohunt on 6/20/2012 4:39:58 PM , Rating: 2
You need to ignore the zealots and find out what Linux/FOSS means to you. I think RMS is the biggest marxist douche bag but i never let that stop me from learning and using GNU software or linux with GNU userland. There is a huge user base of IT professionals that use linux/FOSS daily for real world tasks seek them out.


RE: Profanity
By Spuke on 6/20/2012 11:51:56 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Am I in the minority in thinking that no matter how upset you are, no matter who you think have done you wrong, no matter how much hatred you have for someone, you should never resort to profanity?
I don't if you're in the minority but I sure as hell don't share that sentiment. Taking the moral high ground, if you will, doesn't work for everyone. Some people NEED to be taken down a notch or two and sometimes that only works with a response in kind.


RE: Profanity
By Spuke on 6/20/2012 11:52:21 AM , Rating: 2
EDIT: I don't KNOW.....


RE: Profanity
By NellyFromMA on 6/21/2012 10:41:36 AM , Rating: 2
Lols, Linus's claim to 'fame' pales in comparison to any of the company's he bashes. More like he needs to be taken down a notch or two.


RE: Profanity
By MZperX on 6/20/2012 12:11:06 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct. This is rather foolish and unnecessary. I am a long time Linux supporter/user, since the mid 90s. Started on Slackware, then Caldera, dabbled a little bit in SuSE and Debian, then used Mandarke/Madriva almost exclusively for home desktops and servers for many years.

During the same years I also used just about everything Microsoft developed (Win 95/NT 3.5/NT 4.0/2000 Pro/XP) I never quite understood the Microsoft hate and the fanboy attitude, although I was not very impressed with Win 95 and avoided 98 and ME like the plague. Linux and Microsoft sort of peacefully coexisted in my world either on separate machines or in a dual boot configuration. I used whichever seemed best for a particular need.

These days it just so happens that I run Win 7 on all my computers (actually there is one odd XP box still in use) and the only Linux I have around are various flavors of Android in mobile devices. I still like them both just fine.

I'm not sure who this manufactured controversy is supposed to appeal to. Are there still rabid fanboys (other than teenagers in their parents basement) fighting over Linux vs. M$? Really? If so, that's pretty stupid and I would expect more from adults.

Oh, and Linus is certainly a genius in my book but these profane statements are frankly embarrassing.


RE: Profanity
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2012 12:15:30 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'm not sure who this manufactured controversy is supposed to appeal to. Are there still rabid fanboys (other than teenagers in their parents basement) fighting over Linux vs. M$? Really? If so, that's pretty stupid and I would expect more from adults.


Go to any Linux forum or "community" lol. You'll see.


RE: Profanity
By amosbatto on 6/20/2012 11:33:58 PM , Rating: 2
There is a method to this madness. Linus needs to make a dramatic gesture to alert all the Linux users that they should avoid nVidia. This sort of thing get press, and it wakes people up. As a Linux user, I will remember this the next time I go buy a computer. If Linus had very politely said "please avoid nVidia", it never would have made the news and I never would have read about it. Now that the issue has gotten my attention, I know that I will stop buying nVidia products and I bet there are thousands just like me.

The second important point is that the world of free/libre/open source software is brutally honest and has a very strong tradition of free speech. It is world were people are passionate and opinionated and don't mince words, because they care deeply about the technology and programming. This isn't just a way to make money or a stepping stone in their career to them--this is their avocation and their passion in life. Their blunt speech is the complete opposite of corporate-speak and PR spin. Once you become accustomed to the candor of this world, you find it to be much more refreshing and honest.

The final point to consider is that suddenly nVidia has a PR disaster to deal with and it forces nVidia's management to react. It gets their attention. Although it may harden attitudes against Linux in nVidia, but at this point, what does the Linux community have to loose? They have tried to work with nVidia for years only to be rebuffed at every turn, so asking politely is certainly a waste of time. Maybe being a jerk might work. Who knows.

The crazy thing is that nVidia should be very happy to support its Linux customers, since it likes to promotes CUDA which should appeal to the types of customers who use Linux to do lots of vector and parallel computations. It costs nVidia almost nothing to release its programming specs, so the Linux community can develop their own drivers and those specs has almost no value as far as protecting its intellectual property. I worked as a hardware programmer on a project where I had to interact with microcontrollers. Knowing how to interact with a particular microcontroller told me very little about how to design that microcontroller myself. Frankly, knowing nVidia's programming specs won't help AMD and Intel very much and they can figure it out whether nVidia releases it as public information or not. The fact that both AMD and Intel publish the programming specs for their graphics processors tells you there is very little competitive advantage to be gained by reading the specs. nVidia has no valid economic reason to not release its programming specs, as far as I can tell.


RE: Profanity
By mevans336 on 6/21/2012 9:33:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is a method to this madness. Linus needs to make a dramatic gesture to alert all the Linux users that they should avoid nVidia. This sort of thing get press, and it wakes people up. As a Linux user, I will remember this the next time I go buy a computer. If Linus had very politely said "please avoid nVidia", it never would have made the news and I never would have read about it. Now that the issue has gotten my attention, I know that I will stop buying nVidia products and I bet there are thousands just like me.


I'm sure nVidia cares about the ~1% desktop computing base that runs Linux. So feel free to buy ATI. Just make sure you're registered with a popular Linux forum, as you'll have even more whining to do when you find out ATI cares for Linux much less than nVidia does.

Professionals whose livelihood depends on reliable, proven solutions in the enterprise aren't going to switch to ATI. Not for CAD/CAM, not for HPC, and certainly not for anything else that relies on having rock-solid GPU driver support.


RE: Profanity
By kattanna on 6/20/2012 12:32:28 PM , Rating: 2
the thing I cant shake from seeing that picture is it looks like a little boy who just learned how to use his middle finger in such a manner and wants to show it off.


RE: Profanity
RE: Profanity
By kattanna on 6/20/2012 3:41:18 PM , Rating: 2
LOL pretty much.


RE: Profanity
By FredEx on 6/21/2012 4:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
I have come to question anybody's maturity that flips the bird when a picture of them is taken. Linus doing this disappoints me, rather than think higher of him or Linux.

I have used it many times, every variation you can think of and with time give up on it. I am a huge tinkerer and computer tech guy for decades who has worked with UNIX, proprietary OS's, Apple and all PC OS's, but for home it gets old after while when you have to work at getting something to work once you're past the basic stuff most use.


RE: Profanity
By Flunk on 6/20/2012 12:44:36 PM , Rating: 1
Nope, there is nothing wrong with profanity. It serves a purpose. Now I don't agree with this particular case, but saying that you can't say a specific thing just because it might conceivably offend someone is censorship.

In this case it just makes me think Linus has grown out of touch with the realities of the industry. But there is no reason that we need to restrict a form of expression because someone uses it in a way we disagree with.


RE: Profanity
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2012 12:58:05 PM , Rating: 2
Tell business partners to F off and flipping them the bird is just childish and unprofessional behavior. It's not the cursing that's offensive, look at the context. Grow up a bit, Flunk.


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 4:40:11 PM , Rating: 2
No, Linus felt offended by years of Nvidia problems that the coders can't do a bit about and are offended by users.

Most of the rant about Linux is generated because of the Graphic cards, Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc.

They are the culprit. Nvidia and their Quadro scam for Linux Users. Every person whose ask for OpenGL support is told to buy Quadros.
It's pure discrimination.

Brazilian Linux users are upset for years, and now that they are getting things worse for Blender Users (Read GLReadPixels problem), the users here are very disappointed. The problems persist.

OpenGL Problems ? Buy Quadro !

A card 2 generations before (GTX 285) is 5X faster to use in Sculpt Mode than the newest GTX 680 when dealing with lot's of vertices.

The Cycles support in Linux now suffer because they decided to cut the power of the GTX 680 to an anemic performance in FP64.

We were expecting the GLRead Pixels solved and a better than GTX 580 FP64. Now we have to choose between Modeling/Sculpting and Cycles support on older cards...

Those problems are in the driver, firmware. We are tired...
Linux community is tired. Linus Torvalds showed a limit.


RE: Profanity
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/12, Rating: -1
RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 4:53:06 PM , Rating: 2
I have far more problems with Windows than in those 12 years of Linux usage. Left Windows a long time ago.

A link to see what's going on since GTX 480 ( Fermi ).

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=16675...


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 4:57:32 PM , Rating: 2
A copy of one of the posts:

Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:56 PM

Just wondering if Nvidia plans to stop screwing content creators with this despicable trick when they release the Kepler series. There's a LOT of Maya, Softimage, Max and other 3D users who's blood is boiling because of this dirty trick. Intentionally castrating the openGL performance of a product just to sell extremely artificially price inflated "Pro" products that are essentially no different is just low. It wouldn't be so bad if Quadro's had anything like a reasonable price but they don't.

I'm sure Nvidia couldn't care less about this rather small market but I still think it gives Nvidia a black eye in the minds of many people.

I really hope they change their mind this time around.


RE: Profanity
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2012 5:31:36 PM , Rating: 2
Do you understand that Nvidia doesn't want to just hand over their source code?


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 6:13:42 PM , Rating: 2
Source code release of their drivers = Linux coders never asked for this !

What coders need is a complete list of commands/Hardware user manual = solved, clear, simple and honest !

Without this, we will continue listening to users complaints about Linux when the real culprit is Nvidia/Amd/Intel/Via/SIS whatever refuses to give a Hardware user manual (A.K.A Command Listing) !

Sorry, but we can't understand this scheme, we never asked for driver source codes (it's their creation, their problem ), we don't need this, but with a list of commands, we can write our own source code, and solve the majority of problems Nvidia lags 8 months to solve or refuse to solve at all, even if it's their obligation.

Persons slew Linux coders whenever a Graphic card crashes or don't work as expected. Linux coders aren't the ones to blame.

It's easy to put the blame on Linux, most persons all over the world are acting this way, they don't know what's going on but Linux is the one to blame. When asking for support, coders can't help and then, in the users head, Linux is the culprit. Both coders and users are victims of this scheme.

Without the cards command list, we can conclude Nvidia is using people for Bullying Linux coders with complaints for years. (they aren't the only ones, as said by Linus Torvalds )

This is injustice and discrimination.


RE: Profanity
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/12, Rating: -1
RE: Profanity
By bupkus on 6/21/2012 2:48:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sigh... Okay turn this into a civil rights issue. Good luck with that. You Linux guys are just nuts. /ignore.
Sigh...

Okay turn this into a civil rights issue. Good luck with that.

You, Reclaimer77, are just nuts. /ignore.


RE: Profanity
By TheJian on 6/20/2012 7:57:14 PM , Rating: 3
Nvidia is not obligated to support ANY OS, especially as you and the poster you quote put it, it's a "small market". Why would they spend gobs of money just to support a small portion of users who fold in linux...LOL. Which if you ask me is a waste of electricity. If I folded on my PC the heat in AZ would drive me out of the room (ney, it would drive me out of the house). I refuse to pay $300 for AC because I want to solve cancer...Not to mention the bill the vid card itself would produce at 100%gpu utilization. But if you're rich, solve it, I'll probably need the cure too...ROFLMAO. But since a good life might make it a waste, I'll keep bill down thank you, and thank NV for spending more time on windows drivers where 88% of of live.

Be thankful you get help at all. Clearly AMD has given linux the middle finger! Nvidia's response clearly shows they are doing what they think is best for their customers with limited funds (shareholders would be pissed if they spent millions on 1% of their users). They are not setting out to piss off the linux community (that's just bad for business). But sorry to say there isn't any money in it for them. Supporting android? That's a whole other issue. Servers? They mostly don't even have a monitor in my experience. We remote into them from everything else (desk, home over vpn, etc...no need for even a crap video card, just onboard ATI old junk usually). Until you get games on linux and grow market share, Nvidia and every other graphic card maker will support windows/phones/macs etc.

Take a look at the explosion in mac software. Why? They have 10%+ of the market and people play games/buy expensive cards to run them. Linux has 50% of the server market, but alas, none of them need monitors and it sure is a waste of time optimizing for that market.

nfohump dot com now needs to create a mac section as the stinking mac releases litter the PC iso page...ROFL. Just an observation of course :)

But it's clear, once you cross the 10% or so range drivers become important to all vid makers. It's suddenly WORTH it to code for OSX, and even worth it for game makers to re-tool crap loads of old games for macs (and some new ones now too, most big releases hit the mac eventually now, if not just after the PC).

Get it? Nvidia is a company. They're not doing this for fun. Just like anyone else they are in it to make money. Why is GREEN tech stupid? Why did all the $528mil checks Obama writes out to his friends in GREEN land go to waste? Because you CAN'T MAKE MONEY ON THAT CRAP. You can tell immediately if something is going to fail before the govt even spends a buck. Just ask yourself if the PRIVATE SECTOR is in that business venture. If the answer is no, expect to lose money and watch the govt spend it stupidly. IF private firms can't make money on something they don't write the check! PERIOD. Obama should do the same instead of driving our country off a cliff for his idiot friends and stupid economics (he helped put chicago 40bil in debt, now he's ruining the whole country). Oh know I'm veering off topic...Nvidia is no different than any other private sector company. Fixed :)

Apple can't even be bothered to support the very games helping them get more market share (don't care until someone eats their lunch). Tegrazone however is helping spread the wealth and support android gaming. Not a buck from apple for devs. But again, it suits NV to do this now. It's selling Tegra's and getting design wins. They have no choice, while apple still does (until they bleed enough market share to android and finally pay some people to make better games for their hardware!). In these hard times, I can't blame any company for cutting in areas that don't help the bottom line.

Linus gave the middle finger to the only company catering to him at all. The rest have all given linux the middle finger for lack of income from their efforts. What a fool.

I'm hoping this text isn't actually the way it looks in the window. preview isn't in bold (bold is off but ON and I can't kill it, turning it off does nothing..dang forums). HTML looks clean. Clean pasted into notepad...Whatever...LOL I'm tired today.


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 8:19:41 PM , Rating: 2
You're completely wrong.

First, we don't need support from Nvidia unless the hardware is failing. Second, all we need is the same as you need when you buy a machine, the command list. Simple as that.

Yes, they have the obligation, because the hardware and software is made in their house, not ours.

When we have the command listing, we can solve users problem and the rant over Linux will be finally solved by the coders hand. The majority of the problems related to Linux Graphic cards will be solved because coders will have a way to solve them. If it's a wrong driver, we can fix, a wrong code, we will fix, a laggie, we will fix, a better integration ? Okay !

There is only one thing you can expect when Linux coders write a free driver from the command listing (from the ground up):

All of the Graphics cards will work flawlessly and without a hiccup, at their best possible performance. And it will be Clear and Honest.


RE: Profanity
By Daemyion on 6/21/2012 12:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All of the Graphics cards will work flawlessly and without a hiccup, at their best possible performance. And it will be Clear and Honest.


As a Gentoo user for 10+ years I don't know what you're smoking. AMD and Creative both told their HW engineers to 'braindump' the specs to the FOSS community, and where we today?
1) There are supposedly open source drivers for AMD motherboards, graphic cards and Creative sound cards right?
So AMD guts their motherboard driver department (graphics-wise it's only FireGL they're interested in anyways). Creative absolves itself of ANY corporate linux support.

2) The state of those drivers is shocking. Nvidia isn't touting 0-day support just because. The 7950 for instance only got official closed-source support 3+ months after release. The open-source driver? No 3d support 6 months (to the day actually), and going strong. Personally the card that made me switch to green was a 9800 pro that 1+ year after release still didn't have proper 3d.
This isn't going to get better by the way, only worse. As graphic card ASICs become more complex and general-compute suited, the amount of man hours required to program 3d functionality into them is increasing exponentially. And the community is not as limitless as ESR would have you believe.

Oh and I mentioned motherboards right? Last I checked (3 months ago) linux can't do proper sata3 on AMD boards. But it's better because it's open source...

3) Finally, without closed source there are no binary blobs. Without binary blobs there are no patent encumbered implementations. This is not a trivial matter, as demonstrated with h264 and what not. So you never get the "flawlessly and without a hiccup, at their best possible performance". Even if you have zillions of engineers, you just can't distribute patent encumbered code.

And since you don't have zillions of engineers, you never get it point blank. Not today anyways - but my 9800 pro just got a BIG performance boost in the new gallium release!
I'm too bitter to check how many years it is after the fact...

Recommending a daily drop of lemon in the kool-aid,
Daemyion

/rant


RE: Profanity
By Reclaimer77 on 6/21/2012 12:48:44 PM , Rating: 2
Don't be bitter. Just stop trying to use Linux on a general purpose desktop PC. It's 10 years behind at best.


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/21/2012 1:31:56 PM , Rating: 2
In fact, there are rants about AMD that most of the codes they give to the FOSS community was flawed for the cards, and they give them too late (always). Those lists sometimes act as a wrong map of the commands (outdated and/or obsolete)...

Gallium helped a lot because it's the reverse processing/guessing implementation for AMD and Nvidia. Gallium isn't perfect either, I have been using Linux in a dual core 1.8Ghz laptop with a Via Graphic card. I have to remove Gallium and install pure Mesa (software) in order to run Blender. Mesa is working very well. (3d software OpenGL is slower than hardware 3D OpenGL, but it's working well, it's fine for me, it's working )

About coder resources (task force), yeah, I agree that we have lot's of projects in the FOSS community that needs a huge task force and sometimes there are projects with problems, but hardware drivers since the early days are the first class citizen of the FOSS, they are the base and works with the kernel.

I'm working in the Blender 2.6x documentation project, so for the next two years, I won't have time to help.

The users perspective here after Nvidia Fermi cards has changed a lot, mostly because of the dirty trick in GLReadPixels and/or others. It's the same case as you cited.
AMD ?
Yes, problems too...
Most of them because it's not easy to install AMD cards in Linux.

About 'encumbered implementations' like H.264, I have a good argumentation that this is not a reason to close drivers.

- The price of the cards is the same for Windows, Linux and Mac or whatever !

So the technology is well paid when users buy a card.

Yeah, it's already paid, don't you know ?

There is no reason to talk about 'encumbered patented codes' because they are already paid when the money pops from the pocket of the consumer to the manufacturer.
If those patents are already paid when we buy a card, what's the problem here with them ?

GF Card $$ for Linux = GF Card $$ for Windows = GF Card $$ for Mac !

I never saw a Linux user asking for a discount because they won't use a 'encumbered software patent'. It's not our problem, because if the card is paid, the patents are also already paid..

(May be next time I will ask a manufacturer for a discount about patents that I never use...)

Think about it. Patents are already well paid, they aren't a reason to keep command lists hidden ;)


RE: Profanity
By Daemyion on 6/21/2012 6:35:33 PM , Rating: 2
* With regards to AMD codes - I suspect that their own software team receives much the same details, albeit sooner. The fact that Windows drivers see 10% speed-ups 3 months after launch alludes to that.

* I think you're a bit confused about Gallium. The best way to explain the project is by example. Let's say you have an FXAA implementation. Ideally that implementation should be gpu agnostic. So Gallium set out to have a unified set of functions gpu driver developers can call on without having to re-write it for every chip iteration in the family. It's exactly what AMD and Nvidia are doing behind the scenes with Catalyst and Geforce drivers respectively, sharing code over gpu generations. Judging from this press release, Nvidia even shares code between it's Windows and Linux drivers (which actually makes a lot of sense).

* First class in the community isn't quite the same as first class in the corporate world. With hardware moving so fast, we're essentially back to the WinModem era. But with a much more complex ASIC. I'm not even sure we can call them Application Specific any more.

* My perspective hasn't changed with Fermi ( I own a 460 gtx). Barring a catastrophic driver revision (290), it performed adequately and out of the box. I don't do 3d modelling in Linux (or at all), so obviously MMAV(My Mileage Apparently Varies).
I do, however, think this shouldn't be brought up in this context because what you're claiming is that you got screwed by Nvidia and open source won't likely fix that for you. They can always e-fuse cards. Also, the last time the Quadro and Geforce lines used the exact same chip was the 2xx line. It's a common misconception that they still are.*

* The fact that both you and they paid for the patent, at purchase and at design respectively, still doesn't mean that the patent implementation is baked into the hardware. Just that the capability is there. Again, it's the case of WinModems all over again. The hardware is capable, but only in a general purpose sort of way.

Sincerely,
Daemyion

* If you feel you were screwed over, perhaps try a class action suit against Nvidia. If they deliberately mislead people into thinking they can soft mod Geforces into Quadros you have a case.


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/21/2012 9:00:09 PM , Rating: 2
First, thank you Daemyion !

Your words enrich our conversation.

AMD codes - OK, I agree

Gallium - OK, I Agree

First Class in the community - even considering the ASIC complexities, for the most part, a computer is even more complex than a Graphic Card. As a whole, I think about Graphic cards like a Computer in a card, however, nothing that can't be done.
The FOSS coders are still waiting for a chance.

Perspective of the card - yeah, the dirty trick in the GLReadPixels and now CUDA is made to affect OpenGL and Raytracer users. Nvidia is aware of the problem and keep mum over a solution to force Quadro sell. Whenever a person ask for support about those OpenGL problems in the Nvidia Forum, saying the word ''Linux'', they refuse to solve, took months or tell the person to buy Quadro.

We may have misconceptions about the hardware (Now, who knows the truth ?), but yes, they can e-fuse the chip to turn a good GPU die into a crap, and create artificially, any difference they want.

About the software patents already paid, I have a question:
Without them, will the driver be small and work more reliably and faster ?

If the answer is yes, it's the proof we won't need those blobs at all ! Small codes work better ;)

About the bios/softmod, I never did.

Anyway, as it's being said, Nvidia may refuse to change, it's better for us to stop wasting our time with them.

We can start by avoiding Tegra in Cell phones, Fermi and Kepler cards for modeling and now, Kepler cards for Raytracing. Nvidia may know what they are doing.

Leave them behind and stop blood boiling, it's simple. There are other manufacturers out there. Laptop ? Avoid Optimus.

Let's move forward. ;)


RE: Profanity
By WalksTheWalk on 6/20/2012 5:35:25 PM , Rating: 2
The thing is, it's their product so they can do what they like within the realm of legality as long as the video card arena is an open marketplace. If Linux users don't like what NVIDIA is doing, don't purchase their product. Purchase another product that offers more value.

It may be crappy of NVIDIA to do this but that doesn't mean they have to support something they don't want to support. They clearly have a business model and are sticking to it.


RE: Profanity
By stmok on 6/20/2012 6:09:48 PM , Rating: 3
Just to put things into context...

Steve Jobs is a showman with ideas.
Bill Gates is a geek with some business sense.
Steve Ballmer is a marketing/management type with little clue on technology.

Linus Torvalds is an engineer who will bluntly point things out. He does it so he won't be mis-interpreted.

...If something sucks, he'll say it sucks. He doesn't sugar-coat a situation or bother being politically correct. His objective is to solve problems, correct the limitations he experienced with software during his university years, and make his project better by selectively accepting/rejecting contributions. (Not all code contributions are accepted blindly.)

He isn't attached to any specific company, marketing, or have any business interests to abide by.

So how is this related to his frustration with Nvidia?

Nvidia has a history of acting like a bit of an a$$hat in terms of open source. They do the minimum amount and simply don't want to actively contribute. Everyone can see they're only using Linux to serve their own interests.

For example:

The open driver they contribute to ( xf86-video-nv ), does nothing more than detect their cards and allow for 2D support.
No 3D acceleration support.
No video playback acceleration support.
No SLI support.
No Fermi or later GPU support.
No DisplayPort support on any GPU.
No Optimus support.
The code contributions itself are obfuscated in certain parts!

...So what is the point then? Why even bother making any contribution at all?

This situation has forced the open source community to come up with open driver projects like Nouveau and Bumblebee, based on reverse engineering techniques. They've had to spend months to years re-inventing the wheel.

Note: They reverse engineer drivers by this analogy. Say you go to a foreign country and don't know how to speak the language. So what you do is listen and observe the locals. See how they order a meal, etc. Then you try it yourself. You keep repeating until you get it right. In the open source community's case, they've had to create various testing tools to observe how the closed Nvidia driver behaves with the hardware. Then write an open driver from scratch! This trial and error process is extremely time consuming.

How does that compare to more friendly open source contributing companies?

(1) Intel

This company is an active contributor to Linux. They understand the importance of supporting it as they know it will sell them more hardware over time.

Intel Software Network - Open Source Home
http://software.intel.com/sites/oss/

They have an Open Source Technology Center (OTC) located in their China branch, where they have employed over 50 full time engineers to make sure Intel hardware works with Linux.

Linux Graphics Drivers from Intel
http://intellinuxgraphics.org/
(They have 32 people working on this project alone! Just to make sure the IGP in your Sandy/Ivy Bridge processor works! They've even begun putting code in to support their 2013 Haswell processor!)

(2) AMD

This company provides both closed and open driver options. The open one is called radeon. AMD has employed 5 full time coders/engineers for this project. AMD began releasing the programming specifications to their GPUs after acquiring ATI. They've been doing it ever since.

Because of AMD's pro-active efforts, the open driver is better support than the Nvidia equivalent.
http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

AMD recognises the importance of open source to their business, such that they have a whole section on their website dedicated to it: AMD's Open Source Zone
http://developer.amd.com/zones/opensource/Pages/de...

(3) HP

This company is a good backer of open source. They sponsor events. Employ folks to work on projects full time. And provide hardware and professional support. See their Open Source and Linux from HP webpage.

They actively make sure their scanner, printer, and fax products are supported in Linux: HP Linux Imaging and Printing
http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/index.html

Companies like the mentioned above three, make open driver contributions that get accepted by Linux distro projects like Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc. As a result, you as the user, gets out-of-the-box support as long as you have their hardware. It is one less step in the set-up process...It also makes things much easier when you have a mixed environment of Windows and Linux systems.

This is why I lean to Intel, AMD, HP, etc solutions by default.

The funny part is, even Microsoft provides open source drivers to the Linux kernel in order to allow HyperV to run Linux guests via paravirtualization! As of Linux Kernel 3.4.x, there is out-of-the-box support for "Linux Integration Services".


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 6:26:00 PM , Rating: 2
Congratulations, great contribution to show DailyTech Readers what's going on and why this is happening.

I have posted users complaints about artificial limitations in GLReadPixels and FP64 (castrating OpenGL performance) in the Fermi and Kepler Cards.

+1


RE: Profanity
By TheJian on 6/20/2012 8:55:17 PM , Rating: 1
So let me get this straight. It's all about NV not turning over open source...You're forgetting they actually have all of the stuff you mention in their NON open source driver. That's what most of us call supporting their drivers on linux. If they feel open sourcing their drivers will hurt them with their competitors (most companies don't do it with anything) then they're evil? It's just a business decision they've chosen to make (most likely based on money...Just like all business). They'd be acting like an A$$hat if they had NO driver support (and I'm not even sure that's correct...as again, they have NO obligation to support linux). However they have the best linux drivers on the planet if you merely use their NON open source driver which they hire people (probably more than 5 as AMD does) to write.

Linus gave the middle finger because they won't bend over for him. Tough. They don't have to. Since you painted the others so rosy...

Intel's drivers SUCK, and they lose nothing from open sourcing crapware. They have no worries of others stealing the slowest gpu's in the world. NV/AMD have no use for their junk, so they have no fear of releasing and appeasing the linux crowd. Who would want to emulate their performance in GPU's? Nobody. HP has server linux projects going all the time and would like to see it do well (they make money from it..duh). AMD makes just about nothing for the last 10yrs (20?). They must bend over compared to NV who has 3bil in the bank, is profitable and debt free. They are FORCED to cater to niche markets and be a bit nicer even if it hurts.

Apple ignores everyone and screws anyone they can. No debt, 100bil in the bank and a$$hat users will allow this behavior (for a time). They're suing the #1 supplier of their parts!...LOL. They're trying to BAN the #1 supplier of their parts! I wish samsung would just say you get NO MORE PARTS starting today...ROFL. Think about it, no SSD, no memory, no glass for the lcd, no soc. You pretty much have to delay whatever was on your books as your next iphone/ipad. It would take at least a few months to retool their product line and samsung (and others) would sell the crap out of their OWN products for a good while. Are you listening samsung? Without all your great stuff they wouldn't look so shiny. You don't even need a ban, just stop selling them parts. How many complaints would we see if Apple started using Sandforce drives?...LOL. Marvel or bust? Intel would surely stick it to them for their SSD's. 2nd best glass (samsung is best) etc. It would hurt.

In other words; only those who have to, can't be hurt by doing so, or make money on it, help linux. So just like normal business then...LOL.


RE: Profanity
By greylica on 6/20/2012 9:30:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Intel's drivers SUCK, and they lose nothing from open sourcing crapware. They have no worries of others stealing the slowest gpu's in the world. NV/AMD have no use for their junk, so they have no fear of releasing and appeasing the linux crowd. Who would want to emulate their performance in GPU's? Nobody. HP has server linux projects going all the time and would like to see it do well (they make money from it..duh). AMD makes just about nothing for the last 10yrs (20?). They must bend over compared to NV who has 3bil in the bank, is profitable and debt free. They are FORCED to cater to niche markets and be a bit nicer even if it hurts
CPUS and GPUS. What's the difference ?

Following your statement, we can't write software to Intel because AMD could steal a secret or vice-versa. We can't write Android for HTC because another ARM manufacturer will steal...

Those are only chips, their life is to be programed !

In order to make a chip work, you must program. How can you program a chip when the factory refuses to give you a list of commands ?
How to sell chips that no one could program ?

And the fate will be the same as most unsupported chips.

Obsolescence...

Coders must move forward and make the chip obsolete, (there are lot's of audio cards in this situation in the Linux world, the ones that survived are the ones fully supported)
If the manufacturer of the chip does not want coders/users programing the chip, they produce a nice (and expensive) brick for mortar...


RE: Profanity
By BZDTemp on 6/20/2012 6:43:26 PM , Rating: 2
1. I think Linus did just what was needed. And I am sure he tried to reach Nvidia in many other ways before turning up his finger.
2. You call it profanity but what may be seen as almost a mortal sin others will find nothing more than mildly provocative. Cultural background makes a big difference and I would thing that in a way you are in a minority in this case.

Simply put "the finger" and the F-word is much less of a deal in Europe than it is in the US. We may be similar in many ways but there is certainly differences.


RE: Profanity
By tecknurd on 6/20/2012 7:11:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What comes to mind is that this is just a publicity stunt. But Linus isn't a Howard Stern, is he? Linus is opinionated. But I've always thought of him as intelligently opinionated. Is he resorting to this "shock jock" method just to get attention?

It is just a geek or a nerd that wants control. nVidia is not providing what Torvalds wants, so Torvalds resorted to childish behavior. Over the years when I first use Linux, nVidia has been and still is supporting Linux. Kernel developers and most of the open source community prefer everything to be in open source. It is their geeky and nerdy way of being in control by having open source code. nVidia is being an adult in problems they have been having with kernel developers. Kernel developers are making nVidia an outsider because nVidia prefers to keep their driver closed source. I do not blame nVidia for doing this because they have property to protect to stay as a graphics competitor. Kernel developers does not have a right to push nVidia as an outsider. At least nVidia is providing support for their hardware. There is an article at Phoronix titled "NVIDIA Talks Of Optimus Possibilities For Linux." That article explains the problems that nVidia is having with kernel developers to make Optimus work and it will help other companies as well. It is sad to say that Linux has a bureaucracy going on and this makes nVidia support for Linux stopped or turn to something else like a work-around. Work-arounds does not always work and they can create a mess of things.

I believe that Linux Torvalds is missing what is a community or why he started Linux. He is more like a business man buffoon instead of being true to his words what he wants Linux to be. Really, I thought I hear him saying that he wants Linux to be for desktops.


RE: Profanity
By NellyFromMA on 6/21/2012 10:40:21 AM , Rating: 2
He's immature and has inferiority complex. It's been his way for a long time and it's only getting worse as he gets older.

No, he is no Steve Jobs and will not have a Steve Jobs moment either.

No Linus, just go away. Think the way you want, but don't impose your view on everyone else. Bye now.


RE: Profanity
By bupkus on 6/21/2012 3:06:36 PM , Rating: 2
<brevity>Idiot</brevity>


RE: Profanity
By bupkus on 6/21/2012 3:13:57 PM , Rating: 2
finger and again

../\
^||^^


RE: Profanity
By Mike Acker on 6/22/2012 8:08:17 AM , Rating: 2
as Linus said: there are those who need to be offended. Go Linus!!


By greylica on 6/20/2012 4:23:17 PM , Rating: 2
There are lot's of questions, the problem is not the Optimus, it's the several years of a ''late than expected support'', and their lie about optimus is a shame for the entire company. The true is if Bumblebee didn't make a hack, optimus users will stay waiting until today without support and the lack of open source drivers impose to the coders a shame that belongs to Nvidia. They are the Culprit.

Thank you Linus !
You told for all of our feelings about Nvidia support for Linux in one single gesture !

Nvidia doesn't want to fix the problems in the Linux world because of corporate interests.
They are trying to stay away from the flames, but we have lot's of complaints about OpenGL and now Cuda Problems to deal with.

Most of them related to the GLRead Pixels (to sell Quadro, every person whose asks for support in Linux is told to buy Quadros...).

* They kill the FP64 in new GTX 680 cards to be worse than the GTX 580, whereas they impose a limitation in the GLRead Pixels that is left unsolved to sell Quadros. Yeah, now we are comparable to Windows, same Laggie in Blender sculpt mode. A shame for Nvidia.
GTX 285 is good for modeling/sculpt mode and real time preview and now GTX 580 is a cuda card only, laaaaaagiiesssssss. (two generations after the 285, we have a worse card from Nvidia)

* Still today, SLI doesn't help dual VGA cards in Linux,
* Still today, if my mother needs to change my monitor resolution, their drivers will change the resolutions for all of the users, their driver can't be configured per session.

* Multiprocessor support is disabled for OpenGL users in the Ge force cards for Linux, then the datablocks selection from the cards can't be threaded.

* Their GPU video acceleration turns every persons in the youtube videos an esque of the Avatar film.

We can't touch those damn things Nvidia, you're the culprit.

Do you want more ???




By greylica on 6/20/2012 4:46:45 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, yes, we can't forget to add, 8 months to solve a simple problem in the Optimus...


By greylica on 6/20/2012 5:09:56 PM , Rating: 2
A link to see what's going on since GTX 480 ( Fermi ).

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=16675...

The FP64 in the GTX 680 is a continuation of the same problem started with the Fermi, but the coders discovered a hack over Cuda when using GTX 480/580. Then Nvidia smartly castrated their Cuda cores...

This is the reason why we have FP64 castrated, and not the ''It's castrated to be faster for games'' <- Lie here.


By tecknurd on 6/20/2012 6:22:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
* They kill the FP64 in new GTX 680 cards to be worse than the GTX 580, whereas they impose a limitation in the GLRead Pixels that is left unsolved to sell Quadros. Yeah, now we are comparable to Windows, same Laggie in Blender sculpt mode. A shame for Nvidia.
GTX 285 is good for modeling/sculpt mode and real time preview and now GTX 580 is a cuda card only, laaaaaagiiesssssss. (two generations after the 285, we have a worse card from Nvidia)

I do not work for nVidia nor do I advertise nVidia's products. Why does a desktop graphics card require FP64 when its plain job is handling DirectX, OpenGL, and 2D instructions. Sure desktop graphics cards are cheaper than workstation graphic cards. There is a reason for this is workstation graphic cards are extensively tested for reliability and stability to work with OpenCL, OpenGL, and CUDA. They are not for performance and DirectX that desktop graphics cards are known for. Though is GTX 680 a new card, so the development is still new and those limitations that you said probably is not yet implemented. New comers always bitch when the product is not mature enough.

quote:
* Still today, SLI doesn't help dual VGA cards in Linux,

I do not use SLI in Linux. Make sure the requirements are done, so SLI can work. nVidia at least provides documentation compared to other brands. Also not all games and programs are compatible with SLI. Some programs may interfere the workings of SLI. Think SLI as a luxury feature.

quote:
* Still today, if my mother needs to change my monitor resolution, their drivers will change the resolutions for all of the users, their driver can't be configured per session.

I know as a fact that this is a Linux issue or X Window System issue. It has nothing to do with nVidia.

quote:
* Multiprocessor support is disabled for OpenGL users in the Ge force cards for Linux, then the datablocks selection from the cards can't be threaded.

I am not sure if this is true or you are just looking at this your way.

quote:
* Their GPU video acceleration turns every persons in the youtube videos an esque of the Avatar film.

I never can get hardware acceleration with Flash crap. This is not a problem with nVidia, but a problem overall for Adobe. Does not matter if I use other graphic brands like AMD. Hardware acceleration just does not work for Adobe Flash. Blame Adobe for that. Since nVidia is trying to make VDPAU be compatible with bad programming of Flash, VDPAU for me is not reliable which it was before. I do not need VDPAU anymore because of Mplayer is multi-threaded. I mainly set hardware acceleration in Flash as disable since it never works. Usually performance is worst when hardware acceleration is enabled in Adobe Flash.


By greylica on 6/20/2012 6:50:23 PM , Rating: 2
1) About castrated FP64, the problem started here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=16675...

In fact, the problem has started in Fermi Cards into an specific instruction that was working very well in the 2XX series, and when coders started to Use Cuda to accelerate GLReadPixels and get the real performance of fermi cards, Nvidia installed a new 'cough' kernel in kepler to make sure that the Performance of the GLReadPixels is abysmal when compared to Quadros. If you have time, read the posts in the link !

2) SLI never helped OpenGL users when using Ge Force Cards. I didn't knew that this is software dependant, I tought it was driver dependant. (Well, why Quadro SLI work for OpenGL no matter what the software ???) Anyway, a free driver may solve the problem.

3) About resolution changes, ask for XRandR support, or then, try to move the /etc/Xorg.conf to another place. The Nvidia Linux Kernel demands this place and not a /Home/.X11 or whatever.
It's in the Nvidia driver, we can't do anything...

4) We never saw a good integration between Nvidia Cards/OpenGL Softwares and Threaded processing when using Ge Force cards. I saw a Quadro working, the driver used was at the same number, and all of the processors start to work when rotating a model. Much faster because of something in the driver. Sure, I cannot confirm, and no one can see what's the specific problem of the Ge Force Cards...

5) About Adobe Flash - OK, I agree !

:)


By tecknurd on 6/20/2012 8:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In fact, the problem has started in Fermi Cards into an specific instruction that was working very well in the 2XX series, and when coders started to Use Cuda to accelerate GLReadPixels and get the real performance of fermi cards, Nvidia installed a new 'cough' kernel in kepler to make sure that the Performance of the GLReadPixels is abysmal when compared to Quadros. If you have time, read the posts in the link !

There is no kernel in video cards. It is a firmware. I doubt that they compromise their own hardware. Desktop graphic cards are not tested as much as workstation cards to be use efficiently for OpenGL, OpenCL, and CUDA. Workstation cards are tested for OpenGL, OpenCL, and CUDA. It does show over the years before Fermi came out that workstation graphic cards perform a lot better than desktop graphic cards.

There is no link besides the one that is completely off topic about your Ethernet.

quote:
2) SLI never helped OpenGL users when using Ge Force Cards. I didn't knew that this is software dependant, I tought it was driver dependant. (Well, why Quadro SLI work for OpenGL no matter what the software ???) Anyway, a free driver may solve the problem.

SLI support is both driver and application. No, an open source or free driver will not fix the problem. nVidia drivers are free anyways, but closed source. Xorg still have yet support CrossFire for Radeon cards. You will be in complete darkness when open source has support for it because there is no documentation for open source drivers.

quote:
3) About resolution changes, ask for XRandR support, or then, try to move the /etc/Xorg.conf to another place. The Nvidia Linux Kernel demands this place and not a /Home/.X11 or whatever.
It's in the Nvidia driver, we can't do anything...

X Window System does not allow this because changing to one config to another can not be done. When using nVidia DynamicDisplay using nvidia-settings GUI and changing a resolution, there is an option to save to config. Make sure permissions are set, so that any user are not allow to change the xorg.conf file. Though can setup a script that is run upon login to change to a desire resolution.

quote:
4) We never saw a good integration between Nvidia Cards/OpenGL Softwares and Threaded processing when using Ge Force cards. I saw a Quadro working, the driver used was at the same number, and all of the processors start to work when rotating a model. Much faster because of something in the driver. Sure, I cannot confirm, and no one can see what's the specific problem of the Ge Force Cards...

Plain evidence that I have been explaining. Workstation cards are tested more and developed more. Development and testing does not come cheap, so that is why workstation graphic cards are more expensive.


By greylica on 6/20/2012 8:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
Smart Nvidia !

Moved the thread about the GLReadPixels !

Google it !

GLReadPixels much slower in Fermi cards


By greylica on 6/20/2012 8:58:38 PM , Rating: 2
1)
quote:
There is no kernel in video cards. It is a firmware.


Wrong !
Since GF 6XXX series and Quadro 3000, Nvidia uses a Kernel. In fact, most modern cards uses a Kernel. Even modern softwares are starting to use a Kernel. The Linux driver is called Nvidia Kernel.

2)
quote:
You will be in complete darkness when open source has support for it because there is no documentation for open source drivers.


The documentation for Open Source Drivers ? Yes, we've been asking for the command list for years ! (Both AMD and Nvidia)

3)
quote:
X Window System does not allow this because changing to one config to another can not be done.


Wrong again, X Window is flexible and you can change resolutions restarting the server. This can be done in a per session mode, when the driver starts by a /home/.X11 or whatever xorg.conf script.

4)
quote:
Workstation cards are tested more and developed more


We can test and develop good software for any card, for free !
It will be nice to recommend a good card for our friends ;)


Linus...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 6/20/2012 11:50:17 AM , Rating: 2
Linus looks a little like Keith Olbermann in that pic. Coincidence? I think not.




RE: Linus...
By Ringold on 6/20/2012 12:02:52 PM , Rating: 2
Both wealthy individuals that froth at the mouth when individuals or firms profit from their work, in Linus case it being drivers not being open sourced and shared with all. The comparisons continue..

I think linux in general would profit greatly by kicking out the Bolsheviks and embracing people and firms better that actually want to earn some coin from their IP.


Squeaky wheel gets the oil.
By kamiller422 on 6/20/2012 12:58:42 PM , Rating: 2
Linus' actions at least prompted nVidia to say something about Linux support. nVidia is correct on Bumblebee. It's a great project and works well.

nVidia, could you please help with this??
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-g...

Even though it has its problems, nVidia is still the best option for Linux users at this time.




RE: Squeaky wheel gets the oil.
By tecknurd on 6/20/2012 5:25:34 PM , Rating: 2
If you believe it is a nVidia issue, make a bug report at nVidia's site or nvnews instead of Ubuntu. Making a bug report at Ubuntu makes a Ubuntu issue.


They should just F_ck already
By Mitch101 on 6/20/2012 11:30:35 AM , Rating: 3
Jen-Hsun Huang is a bit of a loudmouth himself. Im thinking they did the nasty and Jen-Hsun Huang hasn't been returning Linus Torvald calls and that upsets him. Purses at dawn.

Seriously I'm glad to see NVIDIA respond in a professional manner instead of some rant from Jen-Hsun Huang. Who knows maybe something good will come from being called out.




I'll say...
By Beavermatic on 6/20/2012 12:01:35 PM , Rating: 3
..old Linus has turned into a regular Steve Ballmer nowadays with these off the wall antics.

Irony.




Honey?
By The Raven on 6/20/2012 12:21:34 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
NVIDIA does owe a fair deal to Linux. A large share of its scientific computing (CUDA GPU compute) users primarily run on Linux clusters/supercomputers. And NVIDIA's burgeoning Tegra system-on-a-chip line has been driven by the strong sales of Google Inc.'s (GOOG) Android -- a Linux distribution. That said, as the old saying goes, you'll attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Perhaps Mr. Torvalds should keep that in mind.
Last time I checked, you'll attract more flys with $h!t than honey.




AMD
By vXv on 6/20/2012 1:35:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
after all Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) basically refuses to play ball at all offering little to no drivers support for Linux.


That's just not true, not only do they have a proprietary driver as well (which is worse then NVIDIA's but still) and provide GPU documentation and help developing the open source drivers by having engineers working full time on it.

That's not what I would call "little to no drivers support for Linux".




Pound sand, Linus
By anartik on 6/20/2012 1:51:46 PM , Rating: 2
There is a clash of ideologies here... Linus is a socialist (and "benevolent dictator" lol) which is what most of the open source movement amounts to. Everything for free is a wonderful idea but no one eats (except Linus who has made millions). Don't get me wrong I've been a C/C++ developer for 28 years and at least 24 on Unix and later Linux but I, like most people, don't work for free. Maybe I could if I was like a lot of the open source contributors living in Mom's basement cranking out code to fight the evil empires that like to make money. Proprietary is proprietary for a reason... people have invested time and money to develop something unique and cutting edge and not likely to offer it up for free in source form so competitors can snag it. Even worse the beggar wants free source from Nvidia and has the audacity to demand it be put in the supreme leaders own format (GTFO). If I were Jen-Hsun I would be saying "No Linus, F-ck you. No more source... binary distros only for select platforms". Linux is a great OS (at least in some distros like Redhat) for commercial server applications but sucks arse as a desktop OS. The only reason companies switch to Linux is to save and make more money (although often causing major headaches). Others are better/more stable but cost money for licenses and tools. Those using Linux on the desktop are just delusional thinking they are part of a revolution and/or just too cheap to buy a real OS. No fan of MS but for desktop the only way to go for hardware support and availability of software. In that area of support Nvidia reigns supreme.




The point...
By Mithrandir95 on 6/20/2012 9:23:02 PM , Rating: 2
"Of course, maybe he's suffering from a bit of an entitlement issue -- after all Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD) basically refuses to play ball at all offering little to no drivers support for Linux."

1.) This statement is just wrong on so many levels... First about AMD and open source, please check the link below. As for Linux driver support a quick trip to AMD's driver website will prove the above statement very wrong. So, good fact checking.

http://developer.amd.com/zones/opensource/Pages/de...

2.) Entitlement issue. It's GNU Linux! From the ground up it's a community developed project that relies on the premise that if you use it, if you profit from it, you should put some effort into making it better. NVidia is saying we'll be happy to profit from the ideas of other, we just don't want to have to share our ideas with anyone else (they are sharing in some areas btw, but in others, not at all). So I ask you, who has the entitlement issue, Linus, or NVidia?!?




question
By frabber on 6/21/2012 12:11:53 AM , Rating: 2
i haven been out of the running with this for a while (only used integrated intel hd3000)
Does this issue include the nvidia binary driver? Is opengl performance etc. worse for geforce cards , as opposed to equivalent quadro quards. Or is this issue only about pure open source drivers if any?




Dislaike
By RazelDazel2 on 6/20/12, Rating: -1
"I'd be pissed too, but you didn't have to go all Minority Report on his ass!" -- Jon Stewart on police raiding Gizmodo editor Jason Chen's home











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