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  (Source: South Africa World Cup Blog)
"No one comes into the store and asks for a Windows phone." -- Euro executive

It's been a wild ride for Nokia Oyj.'s (HEL:NOK1V) first Windows Phone super-phone, the Lumia 900 LTE.  The last week has brought strong salesembarrassing bugs, and even a bit of respect from the American market.

I. Sampling the Hatorade

But Reuters reports that the increasing Nokia Lumia Windows Phone buzz is met with icy disdain across the pond in the UK.  One of Europe's top markets, UK carriers appear to be giving up on Nokia's Lumia, after hardly giving it a chance to shine.

An executive at a European telecom who had been selling the Lumia 710 and 800 complained, "No one comes into the store and asks for a Windows phone.  Nokia have given themselves a double challenge: to restore their credibility in terms of making hardware smartphones and succeed with the Microsoft Windows operating system, which lags in the market."

The executive is quoted as praising Windows Phone for its "tons of cool" features, but then throws the OS under the bus, stating, "If the Lumia with the same hardware came with Android in it and not Windows, it would be much easier to sell."

The curious thing with the European carriers is that they claim to be frustrated with Google Inc.'s (GOOG) Android legion and with the pricey iPhone from Apple, Inc. (AAPL) -- a device that may never turn a profit for carriers.  But when it comes to selling the Lumia's Reuters reports that the carriers are making hardly any effort.  Nokia's Windows Phones are tucked away in unseen corners and clerks peddle Apple iPhones and Samsung Electronics Comp., Ltd. (KS:005930) Galaxy phones on smartphone shoppers.

It's a tale of two continents.   In Europe, carriers are still eagerly ponying up the 600 to 700 euros (~$800 to $900 USD) to sell iPhones to customers, despite the fact that they may never turn a profit on the device.  Even Samsung phones are fetching an impressive 300 to 500 euros (~$400 and $650 USD) from the EU carriers.

Meanwhile, U.S. carriers appear to be adopting a different philosophy.  Encouraged by discounted handsets from Nokia and Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), the carriers are finally giving the platform a chance and pitching it to customers.  AT&T reports strong sales of the Lumia 900 LTE, which is prominently featured in nearly every U.S. store.  T-Mobile USA -- a subsidiary of Deutsche Telekom AG (ETR:DTE) reported that the Lumia 710, an entry-level Nokia Windows Phone, as among its most popular handsets.

II. Some Say Lower the Price; Others Say It's Hopeless

Richard Windsor, global technology specialist at investment bank Nomura predicted Nokia Lumia phones to take in 300 Euros on average.  Their actual haul is about 220 euros on average.  Yet, carriers seem to have no interest in these bargain devices in Europe and aren't even trying to sell them to customers.

The carriers seem to contradict each other.  One executive is quoted as saying, "If they could lower the price we think they could sell more. It might be worth making it a bit of a loss leader to get it out of the door. It's not rocket science."

Nokia Lumia 900 LTE
EU carriers are giving Nokia contradictory advice about how to bump sales, while reportedly putting little effort into trying to push the Lumia line. [Image Source: Nokia]

Another suggests that price is not enough.  They state, "We can open our stores to them and train our staff to sell the phones, but that's it.  Ultimately, Nokia and Windows are challengers and they either need to come to market with a really disruptive, innovative product or a huge marketing budget to create client demand. So far they have done neither."

The perplexing situation has to be particular frustrating for Nokia who is seeing accelerating U.S. sales, but has been largely scorned in its home continent.  If there's one thing illustrated by all the European criticism surrounding the Lumias, it's that while EU carriers may complain about Apple and Samsung's profit-seeking, they really don't mind all that much or have much desire to seek out and promote alternative options.

That's bad news for Nokia and anybody who isn't named Samsung or Apple.

Source: Reuters



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This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2012 5:29:55 PM , Rating: -1
If you don't, you're wrong and are a "hater" and he's going to write another 50 articles defending his purchase.

These executives steer ships worth millions, sometimes billions of dollars. They're as much of an expert in their field as anyone else out there. Instead of meeting their comments with disdain and a conspiratorial tone, we should see things from their point of view in a proper context.

quote:
The carriers seem to contradict each other. One executive is quoted as saying, "If they could lower the price we think they could sell more. It might be worth making it a bit of a loss leader to get it out of the door. It's not rocket science."


Americans think the Lumia 900 is "cheap". It's not. In Europe and the UK they don't do the subsidized contract deal like we do as much, they buy their phones. For what a Lumia 900 costs over there, you can get a top of the line 720p dual core smartphone. Again, understanding the CONTEXT of his statements.

quote:
Another suggests that price is not enough. They state, "We can open our stores to them and train our staff to sell the phones, but that's it. Ultimately, Nokia and Windows are challengers and they either need to come to market with a really disruptive, innovative product or a huge marketing budget to create client demand. So far they have done neither."


Where's the contradiction? He's saying what everyone already knows. Microsoft waited WAY too late to take this platform seriously, and they needed to come out with a game-changer like the 2007 iPhone. They haven't done that, not even close. That's why it's hard to sell Windows Phone. This isn't rocket science.

quote:
An executive at a European telecom who had been selling the Lumia 710 and 800 complained, "No one comes into the store and asks for a Windows phone. Nokia have given themselves a double challenge: to restore their credibility in terms of making hardware smartphones and succeed with the Microsoft Windows operating system, which lags in the market."


Translation: I'm losing money keeping these things on the shelf. Microsoft and their hardware suppliers haven't done enough to make this platform competitive with Android and Apple smartphones. Microsoft waited way too long to make this platform competitive, and 9 out of 10 of my customers want an Android or Apple phone now.

Jason I realize that YOU think Windows Phone is great. I'm glad you're happy. But it seems like you're now way too personally invested in the platform when you start taking all these executives opinions personally and out of context. If WP7 was making them money, they would love it I'm quite sure.




RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By wordsworm on 4/17/2012 5:37:56 PM , Rating: 3
I agree with most of what you said. But I don't agree that they're too late. They just have to have a competitive product, and the Microsoft name will help the product. A few years ago when Vista bombed, that might not have been the case.

That said, I do have a Windows phone. It crashes sometimes. I just wish it had a restart button when that happens. The problem listed in this article regarding networking also exists on my HTC Windows phone. Everything else is pretty simple and straight forward. I'd like to see more voice options. That would be a big improvement for me.

Some of the positives I like about it is that it can actually go for several days without needing to be recharged. It is fairly simple.

As for Jason... maybe he's just stirring the pot like always.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By jnemesh on 4/17/2012 6:12:00 PM , Rating: 1
So, how many MORE years are we supposed to wait for it to BE competitive? Remember when "Mango" was supposed to cure all of the platform's ills? Remember when the Lumia would be the "savior" of the WP7 ecosystem? Now they are saying the "Real" Windows Phones will be the ones shipping this fall! My God! I have NEVER heard as many excuses and cries for their supposedly "loyal" customers to just hold on and wait...and then wait again...and wait some more! Oh, wait, yes I have...it was when Palm and HP kept dangling updates in front of me when I owned a Pre! And we all know how THAT turned out! I expect Microsoft and Nokia to do no better.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Pirks on 4/17/2012 6:39:07 PM , Rating: 1
well, crapdroid was utter crap first years of its miserable life and iPhone was also a laughing stock for many in 2007 and 2008, so harping on WP7 in its first two years of life won't help much, all mobile OSes went through this stage of early crappiness, now cry me some more :))


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Tony Swash on 4/17/2012 7:06:17 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
well, crapdroid was utter crap first years of its miserable life and iPhone was also a laughing stock for many in 2007 and 2008, so harping on WP7 in its first two years of life won't help much, all mobile OSes went through this stage of early crappiness, now cry me some more :))


But crapness is relative. It's how much less crappy the iPhone, then Android, was compared to the truly awful Win Mobile offering at the time. iPhone, then Android, made Microsoft phones look archaic and it's taken them waaay too long to try to get back in the game with a serious offering. Coming from so far behind being just good is not good enough, Microsoft has to produce something that leapfrogs the competition, which their current offerings don't, and I can't see them doing that (maybe they will surprise).

What's even more shocking is that it is two years (two years!!) since the iPad was released and Microsoft won't have a serious tablet in play in the market until the autumn. Ballmer really should resign.

By the way if you want to read an incredibly lengthy and but very knowledgable series of anti-Stephen Elop rants by an ex-Nokia exec visit "Communities Dominate Brands".

Here is a sample
http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/...


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2012 8:46:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
iPhone, then Android, made Microsoft phones look archaic and it's taken them waaay too long to try to get back in the game with a serious offering. Coming from so far behind being just good is not good enough, Microsoft has to produce something that leapfrogs the competition, which their current offerings don't, and I can't see them doing that (maybe they will surprise).


Tony said something I agree with and have been saying myself. This shatters my entire world view. My brain....my brain is now broken.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Mitch101 on 4/17/2012 10:30:43 PM , Rating: 2
Consider nearly every Android device I have ever owned, 5 so far, has had a limited life span on upgrading the OS. Now consider Every Single Windows Phone will be able to Upgrade to Windows Phone 8 OS without having to buy a new device.

That just made every Android device I ever bought a waste of money while the Windows Phone device will get an extended life when Windows 8 comes along.

This move by Microsoft is why they will win a lot of people tired of having to refresh good hardware just to get the new OS.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Tony Swash on 4/18/2012 8:56:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Consider nearly every Android device I have ever owned, 5 so far, has had a limited life span on upgrading the OS. Now consider Every Single Windows Phone will be able to Upgrade to Windows Phone 8 OS without having to buy a new device.


Apparentlt that is not true

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/17/2956439/windows-...


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By themaster08 on 4/18/2012 2:37:08 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By curelom on 4/18/2012 4:13:37 PM , Rating: 2
Possibly, it doesn't bode well anyway. Also, no upgrade path could also mean that you can't upgrade, but have to install from scratch. Microsoft has to give us more details before we know for sure.

I would think that this leans toward us current users are out of luck. If I were Microsoft and we weren't going to let old phones be upgraded, then I'd keep it as secret as possible till the last minute so people keep buying the old phones. However, it you could upgrade your old phone, I'd be publishing that data out to the users so people would buy current phones with hope to upgrade. Since Microsoft is being secret, the leans toward the former scenario.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/12, Rating: 0
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Rukkian on 4/18/2012 11:48:53 AM , Rating: 1
I do not understand why people buy a phone thinking they are entitled to everything new that comes out. When you buy a phone, buy it for what it has, or don't buy it! Do some research, don't listen to the idiots in the store, and figure out what will work for you.

If you want to stay up on the latest O/S, either buy a new phone that has extra power and should be able to handle it (hint: not the free and under ~100 phones). If you buy the low priced phones, they are either old (12-18 months is old for such quickly evolving tech) or they were crap to begin with.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By corduroygt on 4/18/2012 2:30:36 AM , Rating: 2
How about finding out that I agree with both of you as well?
Will you ever recover? :)


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Pirks on 4/17/2012 9:56:48 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Microsoft has to produce something that leapfrogs the competition, which their current offerings don't
According to Jason Mick and many other reviewers WP7 already has best overall experience for an average/novice smartphone user, and that's just the first lame half-baked attempt at building new MS mobile platform. If WP7 did so great one can only imagine how well WP8 will do on the market.

Even the situation with apps is not what Reclaimer and other crapdroid fanboys claim to be. After just two days of owning my HTC Titan I already found a nice WP7 exclusive called Tentacles that many iPhone users long for (hopefully these lamers won't ever get it, hehehe :) and this was without doing anything special, I just got a few random games and then holy smokes - I can't believe they made such ubercool games for WP7 already, I expected MUCH less after reading all the trolls/reclaimers whinig about lack of apps on WP7.

So my personal experience with WP7 is in line with Mick's, not with yours or Reclaimer's. All positives and no negatives for now. I can see MS grabbing more market share when they release WP8 if the hardware specs will be on par with iOS and crapdroid high-end devices. Yeah, that's a big "if", I know, but still I stay cautiously optimistic. Marketplace grew to 80,000 apps already and keeps growing quickly, Viber for WP7 is on the way, Trapster just got released for WP7 as I'm typing this, and almost all major apps I needed are already in the platform like ebay or Amazon, and losers like Pandora are already served by dozens of clone apps made by smarter/quicker developers who are in to grab a quick buck while Pandora and similar losers procrastinate.

Jeez, I already wasted like 80 bucks on so many apps and games, all in just two weeks of owning a WP7 device, it's that easy to get stuff and most of it is very decent quality, and some like Tentacles are even pwning poor iUsers (and there are other nice WP7 exclusives too, like Chickens Can't Fly ).

Good times, Tony, good times. I understand your scepticism about Windows everything, you are an Apple zealot and you are supposed to be this sceptical, status and all, but still - good times Tony, good times definitely :)))


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Tony Swash on 4/18/2012 11:49:21 AM , Rating: 1
Interesting though it is to get people's personal positive responses to using WP7 or to read arguments about it's inherent merits the key issue is can Microsoft get traction in the market against two very big, growing and rapidly evolving established players? It might be possible but I think it's a tough proposition. For the incumbents to be passed or even caught probably requires pulling far ahead of the competition in some crucial feature or set of features, and even that is not a guarantee of success.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/12, Rating: -1
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Pirks on 4/18/2012 1:40:26 PM , Rating: 2
Don't be an idiot, Reclaimer, if I pwned a few WinPC trolls like Motoman this doesn't mean I'm an Apple fanboy. You don't have to be a fanboy to pwn an idiot spewing BS about evil Apple religion Motoman-style.

I mean hardware means a lot for spec-fappers like yourself but common folk doesn't pay attention to specs as much as fappers do. Almost no one orgasms from a quad core phone like you do.

I understand that crapdroid is stronger for spec fappers 'cause it has the magic quad core shit, but my point is that you can start from bottom and try to sell lower specs first and pay attention to great UI instead. This is what MS does, and it may work out. Google approach of specs first everything else second is lame. It allows for market share but you know what kind of profits they get from crapdroid, don't you? Compared to Apple this is less then peanuts, and MS wants to go the Apple way because they too want profits, not the profitless market share crapdroid-style


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/12, Rating: 0
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By themaster08 on 4/18/2012 2:03:30 PM , Rating: 2
It must be said, Reclaimer. Whenever a Windows Phone article pops up you're the first to jump in and comment. Anyone would think you have a fascination for the platform. Perhaps you should give it a go, and I don't mean spend 5 minutes in a store fiddling with one. Spend a few weeks or a month with one. You won't regret it.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2012 7:51:17 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry you're false about Android Pirks, again. After two years Android, despite insane Apple market domination, had achieved a market share around 20%.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_steal...

Sorry the facts don't match your world view. Keep on with the "crapdroid" trolling, it makes you look REALLY smart.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Pirks on 4/18/2012 1:50:19 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah sure gaining market share by giving out your work for free like Google does is definitely going to bring huge profits eh? Time to wake up Reclaimer. Pathetic profits from Android showed everyone what it is really, and MS I'm sure knew all this a long time ago. They are still laughing looking at how Google spends billions on crapdroid and gets nothing :)))


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By wordsworm on 4/17/2012 10:05:20 PM , Rating: 2
It's competitive now. It's a respectable Phone OS now.

Palm is one of those companies which died because the company that adopted them didn't know what to do with their property.

The trick with technology is to be patient. Don't buy first generation anything. Give it time to mature and often become cheaper and more efficient.

MS's new phones are decent. I have a few complaints, but I hear my roommate complain about his iPhone. I had a coworker who bought an Android the month it came out only to sell it a few months later because it was junk (he paid $1,000 for it... which was nuts, imo).


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/12, Rating: 0
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By wordsworm on 4/18/2012 2:21:48 PM , Rating: 2
That was in early 2009 that he bought that phone. It wasn't subsidized because he's a foreigner and he had to pay the full price up front. Early adopters often have to pay excessive prices to be the first. The first Samsung Tabs I remember going for around $800 (in Korea, which was well before they entered the US).


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By dagamer34 on 4/17/2012 6:27:23 PM , Rating: 2
The fact that not veery one has a smartphone means they aren't late. The fact that people have a chance of buying a new phone every 2 years means its not all done for.

From so done who just bought a Lumia 900, it's not a high end phone from a hardware perspective. Nokia is going to have to wait until WP8 for 720p screens and dual core CPUs. But when that time does come around, I expect Microsoft to dump so much money into marketing in conjunction with Windows 8 that you won't know what hit you.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Mitch101 on 4/17/2012 10:21:40 PM , Rating: 2
But at least I wont have to upgrade my phone to get the latest OS on it.

Every Windows Phone Ever Will Get the Windows Phone 8 Upgrade
http://gizmodo.com/5902860/every-windows-phone-eve...


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By corduroygt on 4/18/2012 2:45:20 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By RealTheXev on 4/19/2012 8:51:28 AM , Rating: 2
I'm glad to see that someone else see's what I see coming. lol

Thank you.

*goes back to tool around with his HTC Verizon Trophy*


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Pirks on 4/17/2012 6:32:13 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
For what a Lumia 900 costs over there, you can get a top of the line 720p dual core smartphone
that's going to be slower and uglier than single core "old" Windows Phone, with worse battery life drained by all those background bloatware/malware "apps" and also it's going to be choke full of crapdroid malware that's spreading like a disease these days.

Not such a good deal if you ask me or anyone who's not the spec-fapper like yourself. Woohooo!!! A QUAD CORE PHONE! Reclaimer's totally orgazming now, everyone hide! heheee :)))


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By sigmatau on 4/17/2012 7:50:13 PM , Rating: 1
Windows Phone on an HTC Titan is smoother than anything Android. The Lumia should be even better, if that is possible.

My next phone will be a Windows Phone. My current phone is the Samsung GS2. The GS2 is a very nice phone, but the Windows phones are just a generation better if not more. Google would have to rewrite Android to get that kind of smoothness. There are not enough cores in the world to do it.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2012 8:00:35 PM , Rating: 1
Where do you live? Unless you're running the International version and already have ICS installed, you cannot make that determination. I have the GS2 and it's already smooth as hell, ICS is going to make it that much better.

quote:
The GS2 is a very nice phone, but the Windows phones are just a generation better if not more.


Sensationalist crap lol. What? The Lumia 900 is a full generation BEHIND current phones. No dual cores or quads. No HD screen. The list goes on and on! What are you basing these statements on? Our phone, the GS2, is a full year older than the Lumia 900 and it's STILL more advanced in every way. Stop the rhetoric and use facts and stats.

quote:
Google would have to rewrite Android to get that kind of smoothness.


Wrong again. Go look up some reviews. All Android required to be buttery smooth was an update to ICS. A full rewrite? Stop being retarded.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By sigmatau on 4/17/2012 8:09:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Stop being retarded.


Oh, did a mirror jump in front of you as you finished your thoughts?

I use my phone as a personal and work phone. It performs inconsistently as a work phone. I can only image what a great phone it would have been if it had WP7.5 on it. It is also the only phone that can pull up all of my work portals. Not one android can do it, nevermind an iphone.

That being said, what about the crazy ads on Android? I can download an app, not open it one time, and get hammered with notifications for advertisments. Not only that, but many, many times you can't tell what app caused that notification. That is just beyond insane to me. A notification ad? WOW!


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By BabelHuber on 4/18/2012 4:48:54 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know what you have done with your SGS2, mine has run smooth from the beginning.

It's not Android's fault that some phones come pre-delivered with bloatware from the provider which slows things down and shortens battery live.

I personally use the ICS Omega ROM, also I don't use Samsung's Apps at all. It runs as smooth as iOS, even iPhone-fans have admitted that when they tried it out.

The difference to iOS and Windows is that my phone is like my PC, I can do with it whatever I see fit.

Closed systems like iOS and Windows have their own merits for user who aren't tech-savy, but for enthusiasts nothing even comes close to Android regarding flexibility.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By geddarkstorm on 4/18/2012 12:36:26 PM , Rating: 2
This was a great post.

I think a lot of people who discount Android have never seen ICS and just how huge a change it is over gingerbread in every regard.

Also, botbrew is a very amusing app for Android. Lets you download linux distro packages like Python and gcc, nano and Vi, and quite a bit more. Won't be long before Android is a fully functional PC like linux distro.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By kmmatney on 4/18/2012 2:05:09 PM , Rating: 2
iOS is not really closed, since you can jailbreak it (it took me all of 5 minutes to Jailbreak my 4S once Absinthe came out. I now have free tethering when I need it, and have a fairly customized phone. The good thing about the iPhone is that the jail break community is well established, with excellent Apps and features, and few bugs.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/2012 2:13:48 PM , Rating: 2
LOL what? Of course it's a closed OS, the source is closed. That's what "closed source" means. The source of Android, however, is freely available. That's why we have custom ROMS. There will never be those types of custom iOS ROM's because you can't get the source code.

Being able to "jailbreak" your phone doesn't change that.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By JasonMick (blog) on 4/17/2012 6:32:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

Replying To: Jason Like Windows Phone
by Reclaimer77 on April 17, 2012 at 5:29 PM

If you don't, you're wrong and are a "hater" and he's going to write another 50 articles defending his purchase.

These executives steer ships worth millions, sometimes billions of dollars. They're as much of an expert in their field as anyone else out there. Instead of meeting their comments with disdain and a conspiratorial tone, we should see things from their point of view in a proper context.
No, you can love Windows Phone or hate it for all I care. (The images were just for amusement's sake.) True I own a Windows Phone, but last I checked it's a free country. So what if I appreciate some of the differentiation Windows Phone offers over Android/iOS??

The point is that I don't care what anyone thinks about Windows Phone, in so much as I am not a Microsoft, Nokia, or AT&T shareholder.

However, I do find it somewhat inconsistent for a carrier to make no effort to sell a product -- and then to turn around and complain that consumers don't want it.

This is a problem that I have noted regarding Windows Phone for over a year now -- long before I ever bought a Windows Phone. Until recently when you went into U.S. stores Windows Phones were tucked away in some special corner and salespeople would always try to hard sell you iPhones and Android... it's simply a matter of commissions.

No conspiracy involved. Bad decision on Microsoft's part, but that doesn't change the fact that carrier's claims that consumers don't want Windows Phone are largely assumption as they have never really TRIED to sell them.

That is my point I am making and it is the point I have been making back when I was an Android owner, and now as a Windows Phone owner.
quote:
Americans think the Lumia 900 is "cheap". It's not. In Europe and the UK they don't do the subsidized contract deal like we do as much, they buy their phones. For what a Lumia 900 costs over there, you can get a top of the line 720p dual core smartphone. Again, understanding the CONTEXT of his statements.
And again, I would argue that some customers would prefer the Lumia 900, if they were actually presented the choice.

And FYI, you're speculating.

Did you know that the Lumia 900 hasn't been sold in any European nation yet?

The article is referring to the Lumia 710 and 800. The 900 has thus far only been slated for a May launch in the UK, and from what I've seen pricing will follow a U.S.-like discounting model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumia_900

So would you be able to buy a Lumia 900 for the same price as a dual-core Android in some OTHER EU nation? Uh, no, because the Lumia 900 has not been announced for sale or priced yet.
quote:
Where's the contradiction? He's saying what everyone already knows. Microsoft waited WAY too late to take this platform seriously, and they needed to come out with a game-changer like the 2007 iPhone. They haven't done that, not even close. That's why it's hard to sell Windows Phone. This isn't rocket science.
Again, the article is relatively clear cut. The different carrier executives were giving conflicting/contradictory advice.

Case and point -- one said discounts would help sell the phone, another said that Nokia didn't need discounts it needed a better product.

The point is the suggestions are inconsistent.
quote:
Translation: I'm losing money keeping these things on the shelf. Microsoft and their hardware suppliers haven't done enough to make this platform competitive with Android and Apple smartphones. Microsoft waited way too long to make this platform competitive, and 9 out of 10 of my customers want an Android or Apple phone now.

Jason I realize that YOU think Windows Phone is great. I'm glad you're happy. But it seems like you're now way too personally invested in the platform when you start taking all these executives opinions personally and out of context. If WP7 was making them money, they would love it I'm quite sure.
Whoa, boy. I think Windows Phone has some advantages over iOS and Android as well as some disadvantages. But that's aside the point.

Again the fundamental issues here are carriers' lack of enthusiasm in pushing WP7, inconsistent advice about what Nokia should do from the various carriers, etc.

My commentary has been very consistent since I first started covering Windows Phone, and if you review my past articles you (should) realize that.

I didn't suddenly wake up yesterday and realize some shocking Windows Phone revelation.

If you follow this stuff on a daily basis, it's easy to see some of the big picture problems in these kinds of situations -- that's the perspective I've come from, since day one.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By EnzoFX on 4/17/2012 6:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
His point is that the point of view is skewed/biased. It is Jason, its subtle but its there. I find it annoying when I'm just trying to get some facts in the article. Wow I never thought I'd agree on something with Reclaimer lol.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By EnzoFX on 4/17/2012 7:03:08 PM , Rating: 2
Its either biased or that of one surprised that WP7 has an uphill battle ahead of it. Don't know which is more concerning for someone covering tech news.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By foolsgambit11 on 4/17/2012 7:35:43 PM , Rating: 3
It's like everybody can agree that Jason is biased, but nobody knows where his biases are. He was an Apple lover, then an Apple hater, then an Android lover, now a WP7 lover. Perhaps he just appreciates quality, unbiasedly?


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/2012 12:12:32 PM , Rating: 3
All I know is several major phone launches took place with barely a mention on Daily Tech. I think the Galaxy Note got ONE article. The HTC One X, none at all. Some Blackberry phone and tablets, a now defunct product, get's more coverage on DT than Android.

Suddenly MS announces the Lumia 900 and we have three articles about the phone and WP7 before it's even released, then another five and a review by Mick after he buys one. The phone itself is quite average, still being bested by year old Android and Apple products, so what exactly is the deal with this hype? The OS is basically the same Mango OS that's been out for for a while now. What justifies all this coverage besides the fact that Mick bought one?

Also another curiosity. Daily Tech has been hammering AT&T and basically calling them evil for a year plus now. Suddenly the Lumia 900 is announced as an AT&T exclusive and that's all forgiven, AT&T isn't so bad, and Mick is gathering the troops to make pre-orders on AT&T.com.

Go to other tech sites, there's not anywhere near this level of attention being paid to this phone or WP7 in general. It's making waves, sure. But on DT it's a tsunami!


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By foolsgambit11 on 4/18/2012 8:39:46 PM , Rating: 2
We have had fairly similar coverage of some Android phones, especially flagship phones like the Galaxy Nexus. This phone is something of a flagship for both Nokia and Microsoft, so it's understandable it would get more notice than some Android releases.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By ncalipari on 4/18/12, Rating: -1
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By bobvodka on 4/17/2012 6:38:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Americans think the Lumia 900 is "cheap". It's not. In Europe and the UK they don't do the subsidized contract deal like we do as much, they buy their phones.


We don't?
I have to say as a UK contract phone user for about 10 years now this is a bit of a surprise to me because EVERY phone I've had has been a contract phone where it was either free or cheap when compares to a non-contract price.

The only phone I've ever brought outright in all that time was an HTC Diamond 2 when my phone at the time failed on me during a visit to London a few years back.

I'm currently using a free Samsung Galaxy S on a £30/month contract which expires in a few months at which point I'm considering jumping ship to a contract Lumia 900 for more than likely much the same price.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2012 7:43:50 PM , Rating: 2
I've heard like 20+ Europeans and UK people make comments about how "they don't do contracts, they buy the phone" when talking about the "flawed" American cellular system. So which is it? You guys need to get your act together, come up with a consensus, and get back to me :)

Anyway that wasn't even the point. The point me and that executive were trying to make, is that given WP7's profitability and low consumer interest, the Lumia 900 needs to be cheaper. Period.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Kyuu on 4/17/2012 8:00:57 PM , Rating: 1
Please point me to an Android phone that is unequivocally superior to the Lumia 900 spec-wise which can be obtained for $99 or less on contract. Let's see, best one I can find is the Samsung Galaxy S2. Screen: about the same. SoC: dual-core... but it won't perform any better than the Lumia. Probably performs worse.

You can get the iPhone 4 for $99. Hm, SoC isn't any better. Screen is higher-resolution, though not necessarily higher-quality. You only get 8GB of internal NAND for that price. Hm.

Not really seeing a better deal than the Lumia 900 on the Android/iOS sides. On what planet is it overpriced?

Also, you'll notice that here, in the States, where the carriers are at least half-way paying attention to the Lumia line, they're actually doing fairly well.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Kyuu on 4/17/2012 8:07:13 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and I forgot: no LTE on the iPhone4.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Varun on 4/18/2012 1:29:07 AM , Rating: 2
The benchmarks, what are they for? Oh yeah, browsers...

And browser benchmarks REALLY show the experience of surfing. I mean, it is obvious that NO ONE ON EARTH would ever surf the web on a Galaxy Nexus when it scores a mere 1900 on Sunspider! My desktop scores 200!

Get a grip with your life, calm down a bit, and open your eyes to a world that doesn't revolve around browser benchmarks.

You know what sunspider doesn't show? When you pinch to zoom a web page on a Gingerbread phone, and the entire phone starts shaking because it is so awful, yet, even on a lowly first gen WP7, everything you do is buttery smooth.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By WalksTheWalk on 4/18/2012 2:56:48 PM , Rating: 2
The reason it's $100 or less is because Nokia is subsidizing it due to the issues it's had.

I'm not a fanboy, but to your point, there are many android phones superior to the Lumia. to sue your example, the SGS2 can capture 1080p video and output HDMI, supports SD card storage, can do image and video editing/processing faster, can process higher quality games since it's GPU is faster, it has a development community with many custom ROMs, root access allows removal of carrier apps/bloat, completely customizable, etc.

Also, there are many phones I would consider better from a combined performance perspective - OS and hardware: Galaxy S2, Galaxy Nexus, Galaxy Note, One X, RAZR, RAZR Maxx...need I go on?


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/2012 10:54:23 PM , Rating: 2
Waste of time man. Now that Jobs is dead the reality distortion field has apparently moved to the WP7 camp. It's really sad that on a tech site this much rampant misinformation is being parroted by so many people. It's embarrassing.

quote:
I'm not a fanboy, but to your point, there are many android phones superior to the Lumia. to sue your example, the SGS2 can capture 1080p video and output HDMI, supports SD card storage, can do image and video editing/processing faster, can process higher quality games since it's GPU is faster, it has a development community with many custom ROMs, root access allows removal of carrier apps/bloat, completely customizable, etc.


Now that we've defeated his argument, he'll just come back with WP7 fanboi talking point #1) "specs and performance don't matter". If I had a dollar every time I've heard that this week...

I guess if I'm crazy Anandtech is crazy too:

"Ultimately the Lumia 900 doesn't really change the balance of power in the smartphone OS competition as it stands right now. Although the version number has advanced on the Lumia 900 (because of changes that needed to accommodate LTE), it's really the same Windows Phone 7.5 Mango we've seen and talked about before. If you're looking for a make or break launch that might upset the balance, wait for the Apollo update.

As it enables dual-core SoCs, the Apollo update leads to our continued plea to Microsoft: please throw better hardware at the Windows Phone platform. No company ever won by being the slowest. Windows Phone may be an extremely efficient platform (it is), but there are only good things to come from combining software efficiency with bleeding edge hardware. Microsoft has learned tremendously from Apple in this regard, but in order for Windows Phone to be more than a third runner up it needs to push the envelope just as much as Apple has been. Microsoft will eventually adopt Krait, and 28nm LTE is equally inevitable, but it would just be nice to see those things sooner rather than later on Windows Phone. At some point for a platform to be a winner, it must actually be industry leading. I suspect all of this will come as a part of Microsoft's Windows 8 strategy. Waiting is never easy."


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Heidfirst on 4/17/2012 9:30:33 PM , Rating: 2
The cost price of the phone is factored into the deal - but they also hope to get you to use more chargeable services that your new phone supports that your old one doesn't.
For the vast majority of people that's probably true although there will be people who don't & may get their new phone cheaper with a new contract than simply buying it outright & swapping existing SIMs.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Paj on 4/18/2012 7:27:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Americans think the Lumia 900 is "cheap". It's not. In Europe and the UK they don't do the subsidized contract deal like we do as much, they buy their phones.


I agree with the gist of your post generally, but the above point definitely isn't true.

I can't speak for Europe as Ive never owned a phone there, but hardly anyone buys a phone outright in the UK. They get a contract, pay £30 per month for 24 months, with calls, data and messages included. You only pay upfront if you want a shorter contract, or want to pay less per month. This includes the latest Android and iPhones. I paid a bit upfront for my HTC but got 6 months off the contract.

I've always thought the US has some of the crappiest, most expensive mobile (and broadband) plans in the industrialised world - is this true? I suppose much of that is due to the massive infrastructure needs of getting signal everywhere in such a big place, but Australia has the same problem and doesn't see prices anywhere near as high (although still much higher than the UK or Europe).

At the moment, in the UK I can get a Lumia 900 for no upfront cost, paying £35 a month ($55 USD) for 24 months with 900 minutes/1GB included in the price. And that's a very expensive plan for the UK market. You're right in saying for that money I could get a spanking new Android too.

Hey I should work in a phone store! :p


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By InvertMe on 4/18/2012 9:28:12 AM , Rating: 2
Fanatical insecure troll cannot stand someone liking something he doesn't..

Pretty much sums you up Reclaimer77..


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By DrChemist on 4/18/2012 10:54:24 AM , Rating: 2
What everyone fails to realize is that there are literally no phones other than the Nexus out right now that have ICS. The new HTCs will have it but none of the others have been updated. Everyone talks how great droid is but they always point to the newest release of droid. But the update schedule is almost a year behind from when they release. Most phones may not get ICS by the time the update to ICS comes out in fall.

My windows phone works amazing and if people actually used it they would notice how much better overall the experience is. Everything is fluid and quick. I find when I used my android phone I was spending half my time on the phone just getting to where I wanted. As for apps they have almost every app I need and is fully integrated with all my social media so I can post and reply on the fly without SEARCHING for my app or scrolling around. My android experience has always been slow and jittery and they have dual core processors. It just shows how much android fails at it's OS management.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By Reclaimer77 on 4/18/2012 12:24:18 PM , Rating: 2
My phone is a year old and it's getting ICS this month. The International release already has it. But I thought old Android phones didn't get "updates"?

ICS is brand new, I love how you're acting like it's been sitting around forever and the update schedule is behind. ICS isn't some routine software patch, it's a MAJOR update. Do you realize how many Android phones there are out there? Too many perhaps, granted. But pushing an update this massive across so many different hardware vendors and EVERY carrier is no small task. Microsoft and Apple have no way near the challenge that Google does in this regard. They each have a handful of phone models at best to worry about.


RE: Jason Like Windows Phone
By corduroygt on 4/20/2012 12:40:03 AM , Rating: 2
If people want a better experience, they go with iOS.
If they want to have the flexibility to extensively customize their phones, they go Android.

Why would they even go with WP, with its pathetic app store and pathetic screen resolution over an iPhone?


"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook














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