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Details of the K8L architecture and AMD quad-core roadmap inside

AMD's Spring Forum just finished up and industry insiders got a chance to sit down with DailyTech and discuss the major cornerstone of the forum, K8L.  K8L is AMD's next generation processor technology, which Henri Richard first revealed to Chris Hall at Digitimes back in March.  Richard himself described K8L as evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, and it appears as though that comment was spot on the mark from the details of K8L we've seen. 

Chuck Moore, a senior AMD Fellow, gave a presentation at AMD's Spring Forum revealing some of K8L's features. Aside from being a quad-core-friendly architecture, there are three key features that will separate K8L from K8: cache, memory and HyperTransport. 

Moore revealed that K8L will be the first AMD processor to have L3 cache since the K6 CPU.  Each core has an independent L2 cache, but the entire processor shares an L3 cache pool.  There's no word yet on exactly how much cache the K8L can hold, though the K8L will be a 65nm SOI process so AMD engineers have a bit more die real estate to play around with. 

K8L will support DDR2 and DDR3 when it becomes available, although it’s still anyone's guess as to whether or not the market will actually adopt DDR3 quickly enough to warrant using DDR3 aggressively at the core launch.  Tom Trill, Samsung's Director of DRAM Marketing, was extremely hesitant to claim DDR3 would make it to the desktop without "significant" performance gains over DDR2 -- lest anyone repeat many of the mistakes made when the industry migrated from DDR1 to DDR2.

HyperTransport 3 will be a key element of K8L.  HyperTransport 3, which was just ratified a few weeks ago, increases the frequency of the current HyperTransport bus from 1.4GHz to 2.6GHz, or from 2.8GT/s to 5.2GT/s.  Current AMD Opteron processors only support HT links operating at 1GHz, though the HT 2.0 specification allows these links to run as fast as 1.4GHz.  Non-K8 quad core processors will almost certainly take advantage of this additional headroom as data across these links gets more crowded.  However, K8L processors will have the advantage of using the full 5.2GT/s per link defined in HyperTransport 3. 

K8L processors are expected to be very co-processor friendly, allowing for additional HT and HTX interconnects specifically for math or cryptography acceleration. Current Opteron 2xx and 8xx processors use three HyperTransport links per die, but AMD's documentation did not reveal how many HyperTransport links K8L would utilize.  Recently, AMD's Phil Hester claimed embedded on-chip coprocessors were part of the company's long term plan just a few months ago.  While we may not see embedded co-processors with the K8L, it does look like the architecture is gearing towards supporting co-processors in a big way.

Behind closed doors, insiders revealed to DailyTech a few tidbits of the long term quad core roadmap.  AMD will introduce no less than four quad-core families over the next two years, with the first being DeerhoundDeerhound, we are told, will be a Socket F server processor expected to ship late next year on the K8 -- not K8L -- architecture.   Deerhound did not appear to support FB-DIMM. 

In early 2008, AMD's corporate roadmap claims a quad core desktop CPU will make an appearance, dubbed GreyhoundGreyhound is slated to become the first quad-core AMD chip to use the HyperTransport 3 bus, and the memory controller is slated to support DDR2 and DDR3.  Unlike Deerhound, Greyhound will use the K8L architecture, and all the goodies that come with it, including the 5.2GT/s HyperTransport support.  Unless AMD's plans change drastically between now and 2008, the processors will require a new socket.

There are very few details of the other two processor families, but hopefully future forums will get a chance to touch on some of those developments as they firm up.  However, we do know that server processor cores are expected to migrate to K8L after Deerhound

K8L has a few other highlights, including dynamic powering of sections of the processor -- a page taken straight out of Intel's Yonah playbook.  The p-states, as far as we can tell, will be separate for each core and the memory controller.  The K8L core will also have a 32-byte prefetch (versus 16 right now), 48-bit addressing with 1GB pages and the ability to process 128-bit SSE instructions in a single cycle, another very Intel-esque feature. 

Expect to see more tidbits over the next few days as roadmaps and transcripts are still being released. 



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Timetable
By nrb on 5/18/06, Rating: 0
RE: Timetable
By Spoonbender on 5/18/2006 1:03:57 PM , Rating: 3
Why is that a problem? Intel survived for three *years* without being able to close the performance gap. A company doesn't have to be permanent #1 to survive. AMD still has a great product, and Intel is still unable to compete in higher end machines (4-way cpu's where the FSB just can't deliver enough bandwidth, for example).

In the desktop market, yeah, Intel will have an advantage for a couple of months. But hey, if AMD *really* need to compete, they can easily crank up the voltage a bit, and deliver some faster chips, at a higher TDP. That way, they might be able to at least come close to closing the performance gap. They've also got the 65nk transition coming up soon, which will help them squeeze a few more percent out as well.

And who cares if Intel makes a quad-core product first? It won't perform very well unless they manage to crank up the bus bandwidth *a lot*.

And probably most importantly, AMD has finally managed to convince a lot of people that AMD is a great brand. That means a lot of people will buy AMD products, even when they're not #1.

That's what Intel has survived on for the last 3 years. The same effect should be able to keep AMD going for half a year, don't you think? ;)


RE: Timetable
By MrKaz on 5/18/2006 1:20:37 PM , Rating: 2
Perfect reply!


RE: Timetable
By RyanVM on 5/18/2006 3:04:18 PM , Rating: 2
Intel's also got a lot more spare cash floating around than AMD. They afford to be behind for awhile. AMD can't.


RE: Timetable
By Devil Bunny on 5/18/2006 10:43:10 PM , Rating: 2
This happens all the time in other Industry's. Look at the oil industry for example, you have atleast 4 major oil companys competing right now, and only one can be number one. Also look at the graphics card area, the Nvidia 5 series sucked horribly, so people bougth ATI, and Nvidia is still around today. Just becuase a company isnt number one doesn't mean that they will fail, and the CPU market is just the same.


RE: Timetable
By Griswold on 5/18/2006 1:15:58 PM , Rating: 2
No, I dont think it looks bad for AMD. Intel thinks that core 2 will make up for 20% of their sales by the end of the year. Thats not too impressive. It just tells us that they know, that the whole world wont jump all over core 2 at launch. They may have a superior product available, but that doesnt mean AMD will go bancrupt the next day. You need two things to be successful: a good product and people who buy it.

As for quad cores on desktop.

How many of these desktop quad core (they will be the price premium edition) do you think will be sold? How long did it take for dual core to become a somewhat mainstream product?

Judging this book by how soon quad cores for desktop appear is bad at best.

Besides that, AMDs roadmap policy is just crap. Snippets here, some pieces there, all that spiced up with speculative stuff sites like hkepc pull out of their arse. Thats really not a good foundation to base any speculations on. Just another field AMD has to improve alot on, it goes hand in hand with their crappy marketing.




RE: Timetable
By defter on 5/18/2006 2:28:36 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
No, I dont think it looks bad for AMD. Intel thinks that core 2 will make up for 20% of their sales by the end of the year. Thats not too impressive.


That's VERY impressive. Do you have any idea what was percentage of K7 unit sales two quarters after launch? Or what about K8? I can guarantee that those numbers were significantly below 20%.

One thing people forget when talking about marketshares is that laptops account for almost 50% of the market. In the laptop market Intel has already excellent product and there isn't really much hurry to replace majority of Yonah's with Merom.

When you remove Celerons and mobile parts from Intel sales, 20% of the total sales suddenly will look a quite big number...


RE: Timetable
By Griswold on 5/18/2006 5:40:29 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, if I remember correctly, this 20% figure was just for desktop parts. That leaves 80% for P4 sales. Intel still has a huge P4 stockpile.

And just for the record, I doubt that laptops make up for 50% of the market. There is alot of growth there, but its hardly near the absolute sales of desktop machines yet.


RE: Timetable
By JumpingJack on 5/21/2006 5:23:37 PM , Rating: 2
Actually that is not true, laptop sales are neareing 50% -- it has been mobile that has kept Intel going and more or less hiding the impact of share loss:

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardwa...


RE: Timetable
By JumpingJack on 5/21/2006 5:26:34 PM , Rating: 2
Here is another, laptop sales surpass 50% in retail in 2005.... I wonder is this is a factor contributing to the fact that AMD ate some into the DT retail as Intel pretty much controls mobile.
http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?se...


RE: Timetable
By photoguy99 on 5/18/2006 4:31:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Judging this book by how soon quad cores for desktop appear is bad at best.


Maybe, but quad cores a year early on the server would be a devastating blow to AMD.

The advantage scales so well and almost all server applications benefit from it.

Having dual core servers first was one reason Intel lost share in that segment.



RE: Timetable
By Griswold on 5/18/2006 6:03:20 PM , Rating: 2
Deerhound will appear 2007 as mentioned above. Wont be based on K8L though. Intels Cloverton (reminds me of the early P-D rush job with 2 cores glued together back in 2005) will be around sometime in 1H 2007, probably rather sooner than later, but definitely not 1 year ahead of AMD.

Two more things:

- Enterprise customers arent early adopters. Both Woodcrest and Cloverton wont go "from 0 to hero". These people want validated hardware, not the newest thing on the market. A K8 quad on the other hand is a known factor.

- It remains to be seen how well cloverton really scales, especially in multi-socket systems.


RE: Timetable
By zsdersw on 5/19/2006 7:17:46 AM , Rating: 2
If, as you say, they don't want "the newest thing on the market", which I suspect is probably true, it serves to hinder early adoption of new platforms and products from both AMD and Intel.. not just Intel.


RE: Timetable
By bob661 on 5/19/2006 11:04:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If, as you say, they don't want "the newest thing on the market", which I suspect is probably true, it serves to hinder early adoption of new platforms and products from both AMD and Intel.. not just Intel.
He's correct. The enterprise sector doesn't jump on the latest hardware unless there's an immediate need for the new tech. And even if they do jump on the new stuff, there will be quite a bit of testing before it's entered into service.


RE: Timetable
By bob661 on 5/19/2006 11:07:33 AM , Rating: 2
This applies to both Intel and AMD. Also, it doesn't seem to hinder either company. If there have been a lot of companies asking for Opterons, then more than likely there will be immediate purchases of the Dell Opteron servers.


RE: Timetable
By lethalchronic on 5/19/2006 1:34:24 PM , Rating: 2
Quote- "How many of these desktop quad core (they will be the price premium edition) do you think will be sold? How long did it take for dual core to become a somewhat mainstream product?"

I think mainstream here is a complete understatement here. I think it is easy to confuse our market (Daily Tech readers) with what is truly mainstream. Getting to that mainstream point in the hardcore market or tech savvy market is one thing.

My point is dual core has a long way before the title mainstream can be applied. We will come to that point when OEMs start pushing it seriously. The mainstream market has always been (unfortunately) tied with the OEMs.


AMD the thing some of you missed
By proamerica on 5/19/2006 12:12:57 PM , Rating: 2
One thing you guys are missing I think is that AMD is going to try and do some serious Ghz scaling on AM2. I've seen some rampant speculation about K8 on 65nm being able to hit 4Ghz. Right now the fastest available dual core is the 2.6Ghz FX60, if they can get that up to 3.6Ghz on 65nm then maybe they will have an answer to Conroe before K8L.

Of course, who the heck knows whats true about the future, but with AMD claiming they are bringing back the "Mhz war" and that they intend to win it, the idea of K8 hitting 3.5Ghz and above is not beyond the realm of possibility.




By saratoga on 5/19/2006 4:03:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
One thing you guys are missing I think is that AMD is going to try and do some serious Ghz scaling on AM2. I've seen some rampant speculation about K8 on 65nm being able to hit 4Ghz.


Thats retarded. Its a shallow pipe, and they're running into it's limits. Just look at the 90nm shrink where they went from 2.6GHz to about 3GHz on 90nm. Realistically, the K8 is unlikely to scale much higher then it is now, regardless of die size.


By Spoonbender on 5/19/2006 5:49:33 PM , Rating: 2
"Rampant speculation"? Yes, I can't believe we didn't take that into account... ;)

Forget about seeing 4GHz A64's. It will scale beyond the current 3GHz, and apparently their 65nm process will even scale relatively well. But *not* 33% above the original max. And not above what the P4, an architecture *designed* for MHz scaling, could do.
3.5GHz might not be impossible though.


RE: AMD the thing some of you missed
By GeoMan on 5/20/2006 10:13:24 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. If they are re-entering the speed war, then it's still possible that there is an entirely new technology about to emerge. Maybe there is some new understanding related to stability of microelectronic devices, because the distances keep getting smaller.


RE: AMD the thing some of you missed
By saratoga on 5/20/2006 8:53:36 PM , Rating: 2
I doubt they'll be a clock speed war. Intel's got a deeper pipe on Conroe, and they have the edge on fabs. Not worth it for AMD. Instead they'll probably push the advantages of having an IMC and very scalable multicore/multisocket arch.


RE: AMD the thing some of you missed
By bob661 on 5/21/2006 12:51:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Intel's got a deeper pipe on Conroe, and they have the edge on fabs.
What does this have to do with a possible AMD MHz push? Since we're speculating about future products that no one has tested and no one can buy, Conroe ain't designed to do the MHz thing. Also, didn't a certain company that wasn't nearly as successful as they are now beat Intel to 1GHz? Doesn't anyone remember that MHz war?


By zsdersw on 5/21/2006 2:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
Conroe's pipeline length is apparently 14 stages. If K8L comes out with a longer pipeline than K8, it will help the clock speed grow higher.


By saratoga on 5/22/2006 7:36:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What does this have to do with a possible AMD MHz push?


Lack of reading comprehension. Read what you quoted. The key word is "war", as in competition. No one is saying AMD won't try and ramp up clock speed. Just that they're not going to seriously challange Intel there.

quote:
Since we're speculating about future products that no one has tested and no one can buy, Conroe ain't designed to do the MHz thing.


Conroe will clock higher then the K8 though. What does that say about the K8?

quote:
Also, didn't a certain company that wasn't nearly as successful as they are now beat Intel to 1GHz? Doesn't anyone remember that MHz war?


Yes, and didn't that certain company design a processor with more aggressive pipelineing then the P3? Put 2+2 together. Deeper pipeline+equal or better fab tech == higher clock speed.


RE: AMD the thing some of you missed
By Visual on 5/22/2006 4:12:40 AM , Rating: 2
The P4 could do 4GHz and above, so it's not an unreasonable speed by itself, don't diss it. True, it was a space heater even at half that, so Intel couldn't make those clocks official.

I understand your point that A64's aren't ment to run at clocks as high as the P4 though, so a 4GHz official A64 clock is likely not gonna happen soon. 4GHz OCs on the other hand might soon be possible.

You say yourself "3.5GHz might not be impossible", while it is possible already. Current official maximum for AMD is 3GHz on the opterons, and we don't get anything higher on their roadmaps yet. You have to keep in mind though, for a while now lots of even lowend A64s do 3.2GHz, some 3.4-3.5GHz. Even using the current socket and cores AMD could release "emergency edition" chips at those speeds if it were forced by conroe. Come K8L, 65nm, those speeds should become the norm instead of the max, and then we'll probably be getting the 4GHz OCs. Will be a while though, is it 2008H2?


RE: AMD the thing some of you missed
By Visual on 5/22/2006 4:15:24 AM , Rating: 2
Buggrit this forum is nuts. Or i'm clicking the wrong link more likely... anyway, my post above was intended as a reply to Spoonbender, dunno how I messed it up.


By Spoonbender on 5/22/2006 8:08:59 PM , Rating: 2
yup, I wasn't talking about overclocks though. Only about stock speeds.


News NEWS NEWS.....
By crystal clear on 5/20/2006 8:06:10 AM , Rating: 2

"Intel to fend off AMD low-power challenge with May 28 price cuts of Core Duo"

The above heading appears in Digitimes.
Not long somebody from Intel was quoted -"they will not use price cuts rather rely on quality of the product"

Well what do u all say about this....





RE: News NEWS NEWS.....
By zsdersw on 5/20/2006 11:43:26 AM , Rating: 3
Cutting prices isn't the only thing Intel is doing. They are also bringing out quality products. Nowhere does it say that price cuts will never be used.


RE: News NEWS NEWS.....
By crystal clear on 5/20/2006 12:44:40 PM , Rating: 2
Nobody doubts the quality of Intel CPUs(the trio).
You dont start discounting/price cutting of a superior product at the launch stage.Sounds very strange.


RE: News NEWS NEWS.....
By zsdersw on 5/20/2006 3:14:42 PM , Rating: 2
What launch stage are you talking about? Core Duo's have been out for a while now... and it's not at all strange for Intel to be lowering the price.


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/20/2006 2:20:37 PM , Rating: 2
The updates on the 28th are only on a few low end Core Duos. I'll publish a full article later today.


K8L?
By ShadowD on 5/18/2006 7:27:41 AM , Rating: 1
This seems to be a consolitory move rather than a leap forward. The name K8L says it all. Its not significant to warrant K9, but it does warrant an L. Very little has actually changed or been added. Sure, it will be an improvement, but not till 2008. The desktop processor industry seems to have come to a dead stop, Conroe offers only 20% over AMD, and AMD intends to retaliate in 2008.

Something tells me that I'm not going to be upgrading for quite some time.




RE: K8L?
By Stele on 5/18/2006 9:30:27 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
This seems to be a consolitory move rather than a leap forward. The name K8L says it all.

confer:
quote:
Richard himself described K8L as evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, and it appears as though that comment was spot on the mark from the details of K8L we've seen


AMD already noted clearly that it would be so :)

Nevertheless, there are some interesting innovations; it may not be a completely new core design as K8 was to K7, but at least it is also rather more than just a 'slap more cache, add more cores, shrink the die' exercise that has happened now and then.

It's good that AMD and Intel are quite evenly matched in the performance arena now - that should keep the two companies on their toes. As for the quantum of improvement, imho 20% is not too shabby at all actually - besides, the improvements also manifest themselves in other aspects besides sheer performance - power efficiency, power dissipation, architectural flexibility, growth potential and so on. This applies to both Conroe and K8L.

Having said that, I eagerly await the in-depth reviews of these two CPUs in due time - especially Conroe, if for no other reason than simply because it's coming sooner than K8L. :P


Moderated
By mickeymouse9 on 5/19/06, Rating: -1
RE: Moderated
By NuroMancer on 5/23/2006 2:40:46 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly,
Give him/her a vacation, and a long one.


RE: K8L?
By meson2000 on 5/18/2006 9:48:32 AM , Rating: 5
Actually, here is a nice list of all the improvements of K8L from AMD's Chuck Moore. Dual Core K8L will be out in the 1st half of 2007.



0. Native quad core
1. Hypertransport up to 5.2GT/s
2. Better coherency
3. Private L2, shared L3 cache that scales up.
4. Separate power planes and pstates for north bridge & CPU
5. 128b FPUs - see 14,15
6. 48b virtual/physical addressing and 1GB pages
7. Support for DDR2, eventually DDR3
8. Support for FBD1 and 2 eventually
9. I/O virtualization and nested page tables
10. Memory mirroring, data poisoning, HT retry protocol support
11. 32B instead of 16B ifetch
12. Indirect branch predictors
13. OOO load execution - similar to memory disambiguation
14. 2x 128b SSE units
15. 2x 128b SSE LDs/cycle
16. Several new instructions

Coprocessors:
media processing
JVM/CLR acceleration
TOE, XML or SSL processing


K8L on AM2?
By Kim Leo on 5/18/2006 7:56:38 AM , Rating: 2
i hope they will make it available for AM2, like with Dualcore and 939, almost every board available for Socket 939 befor and after the realease of dualcore could handle one.. and that K8L will use Z-Ram(i think it was?)




Confused
By Viditor on 5/18/2006 8:30:41 AM , Rating: 2
Kristopher, I'm a bit confused...
Are you saying that none of the K8L chips will be released until 2008, or is it just the quad core K8L that is in 2008...?


RE: Confused
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/18/2006 12:04:09 PM , Rating: 2
There may be plans for dual core K8L, but I have not seen them yet.


possibilites
By Falloutboy on 5/18/2006 11:24:13 AM , Rating: 2
I think this Co-Proc thing could be Huge. have a dual core proc then ad an On Die Coproc for whatever market the chip is aimed for for instance this could be a lineup for desktops:

Single Core Lowend Model
Dual Core Mainstream
Dual Core Media Edition with an Ondie Media coproc
Dual Core Gameing Edition with an Ondie physics coproc
Extreme Edition Quadcore with both coprocs on core




RE: possibilites
By scabby on 5/18/2006 12:21:11 PM , Rating: 2
I may be a bit OLD, and dating myself when I'm saying this, but can anyone say Weitek? How about 387? Co-processors have been done before, and done well.

As far as this incarnation of co-processors, I think that there are some solid uses for them: media and physics processing, as you've suggested, network processing, and others. I'd like to see them not be on-die, though, despite the speed bonuses we'd see. I think the problem will be a massive consumer confusion stemming from the myriad choices of processor/coprocessor combinations that would occur if we had 5 separate lines of processors (with different coprocessor specs) each with their own sets of core speeds and multipliers. AMD would be required to put out at least double or triple the amount of processor lines, and I don't think their production ability would see this through.

Possible on-motherboard drop-in coprocessors for specialized purposes? PPU socket anyone? GPU?


RE: possibilites
By MrKaz on 5/18/2006 1:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
You got it wrong.

The idea is to use some slot (maybe HTX), where an add-in card would connect directly to the processor.

I think there is much more flexibility with this since:
-Packing it with the processor would be too expensive.
-Use another socket for the co processor is also expensive, too much space on the mobo (on desktop), server maybe OK)
-Using the slot you could upgrade, add or remove easellier.


Intel and AMD in bed with each other?
By Regs on 5/18/2006 8:21:58 AM , Rating: 2
They are both going to be sharing the same features...and I'm sure people are going to claim AMD stole from Intel. I don't know how that would be possible considering the K8L has been in development for 2 or so years. Longer then that if you include all the other scrap projects AMD has been working on that ended with the birth of the K8L.

On a side note, it's about time we seem some real pushes towards performance as Intel even said that x86 is running out of head room to improve a few years back. I would have to agree that there is little demand for high performing desktop CPU's as the more stressful programs are used on quad core -low power consumption- work stations. Microsoft's LongHorn will likely lead the push for more higher performing x86 processors on desk tops. At least for now that small percentage of hardware guru's and avid gamer's can be satisfied.




By Regs on 5/18/2006 8:37:41 AM , Rating: 2
And thanks for the update Kris. I'm sure Viditor's question will be answered as the road maps are released.


Prefetch size
By Olaf van der Spek on 5/18/2006 11:32:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The K8L core will also have a 32-bit prefetch (versus 16 right now),


I think that should be bytes instead of bits.




RE: Prefetch size
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/18/2006 12:04:57 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, thank you.


Desktop k8L in 2008 eh?
By R3MF on 5/18/2006 7:45:33 AM , Rating: 2
i was a bit worried that AM2 dual-core would serve no purpose due to there being such a small time gap between 939 dual-core and quad-core, but it appears not to be the case.

A 3.2GHz AM2 dual-core will be a nice upgrade in mid 2007 from my current X2 3800+.

then i'll look at a K8L quad-core in late 2008 when the price has stabilised.




Socket F
By vorgusa on 5/18/2006 3:32:44 PM , Rating: 2
I am still confused about socket F is there going to be much difference between it and AM2, have we heard any news on it? I would think there would be more of an improvement then just DDR2 since there are so many more pins




By AnotherGuy on 5/19/2006 1:36:12 PM , Rating: 2
Heheh AMD Marketing is improving me thinks... at least here in NYC.
Yesterday while going to work on the express... I saw this huge advertising sign with AMD's logo... it said smthn like this...
"The 2003 Blackout would have probably not happened if you didnt decide to waste energy with non-AMD computer systems..."

I liked it :)




Good for AMD but....
By sxr7171 on 5/24/06, Rating: 0
RE: Good for AMD but....
By AlmostExAMD on 5/24/06, Rating: 0
Moderated
By mickeymouse9 on 5/19/06, Rating: -1
"Google fired a shot heard 'round the world, and now a second American company has answered the call to defend the rights of the Chinese people." -- Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-N.J.)

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