Sources: 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, EFF
quote: I think you're doing an incredible disservice by comparing what Bush did with Nixon. Nixon appropriated federal assets for personal gain plain and simple; to win an election. It was a terribly selfish act, to say the least. Illegal and morally reprehensible.Regardless what you feel about Bush's decisions, they were clearly to defend the nation and in no way contributed to his personal interests. What did he, personally, gain from it? Bush worked with his cabinet AND Congress at every step of the way. Seriously, how was that pulling a Nixon?
quote: In fact, news flash, the Federal Government has ALWAYS unilaterally spied on it's citizens. Whenever it wanted to, for whatever reason. We all know this to be true. The very fact that we're, maybe for the first time in recent history, having open legal and political debates about it is because Bush did everything above board in an accountable manner. He could have done this all with executive orders and gag orders and non-disclosure binds etc etc and buried it. The truth wouldn't have gotten out 'till years later, if ever.
quote: If for some reason Obama or Bush wanted to wiretap you, they easily could.
quote: Because there's no publicly available comprehensive records of the current wiretapping program
quote: Don't be silly and devolve this into a (R) vs. (D) debate.
quote: Both parties supported this nonsense.
quote: Seems like the author has already planted those seeds :)
quote: They ALWAYS could. Do you honestly believe that getting a warrant to wiretap me was anything but a ridiculous bit of procedure that got the green light every single time? As if any judge ever said "no" to a requested warrant for this? I seriously doubt it. Also, since I wouldn't be notified of the warrant in the first place, how has anything really changed from my point of view?
quote: Was there ever? LOL Jason, what are you saying here? Like that kind of transparency EVER existed in our Government? As if Bush started it all? I can't figure out if you're being ultra-idealists or what.
quote: I'm not convinced it was nonsense. Amazing what 11 years of hindsight and security will do. But as I recall it, at the time, there was REAL fear after 9-11 that more terrorists were here ready to enact their plans. Communicating, plotting, bla bla. I guess you've forgotten.The real question is, after it's been made abundantly clear under the Obama administration that that isn't the case; why has Obama extended and expanded these programs?
quote: You essentially are arguing that it doesn't matter whether warrantless wiretaps are illegal or legal because of the powerful individuals involved.
quote: I'm not supporting anything. I'm being a realist. Nice job with the Ben Franklin quote, we haven't seen that one a billion times on this issue. People who usually use that quote are hypocrites, because they're all too willing to support temporary safety in exchange for liberties. Hell mandatory anti-texting laws are a perfect example of that. Or any number of mandates people support. Obamacare anyone? How about social security? Anti-smoking legislation? Oh that's right, smoke "hurts" people, so it nullifies that liberty. I forgot.But I guess we only trot out old Ben Franklin on the big issues while we ignore the general erosion of our rights. Brother, I have WAY more things to worry about than the 0.00000000000000001% chance a phone-call might be listened in on. Hell the way things are going, I might not even have a job left for me and you're preaching about phantoms that come in the night.
quote: Legality isn't the issue. The law was changed to make them legal, therefore they are legal. That's not my "argument" at all.You're just blowing this out of proportion and editorializing. You act like making an international phone call to known terrorists is some huge "civil liberty". Come on man.And it would be REALLY nice if you could possibly post on ANY topic without finding a way to pull the "Blame Bush" strategy.Here's another famous quote for you:The Constitution is not a suicide pact-Abraham LincolnA man who, although idolized by many Americans, absolutely CRUSHED the Constitution and citizens rights. Ironic how over time hindsight can go either way.
quote: The Constitution is not a suicide pact-Abraham LincolnA man who, although idolized by many Americans, absolutely CRUSHED the Constitution and citizens rights. Ironic how over time hindsight can go either way.
quote: You're just blowing this out of proportion and editorializing. You act like making an international phone call to known terrorists is some huge "civil liberty". Come on man.
quote: Legality isn't the issue. The law was changed to make them legal, therefore they are legal. That's not my "argument" at all.
quote: And it would be REALLY nice if you could possibly post on ANY topic without finding a way to pull the "Blame Bush" strategy.
quote: Your right in many ways, I did read a bit but stopped after I had enough. I just wanted to give him a chance and not judge him too quickly. My instincts did prove correct.I just want to escape this political bigotry, and if you read Jasons articles, they are truly filled with it. I wish I could read more about technology and less about political opinions here at Daily Tech.
quote: Humorous how you think I'm an evil conservative and Reclaimer77 thinks I'm an evil bleeding heart liberal.
quote: Clearly neither of you has a clue. I'm just a free thinker.
quote: False clause/non-sequitir. What does this have to do with preventing unregulated government spying?
quote: I fail to see how Lincoln's quote or his presidential legacy have anything directly to do with the debate at hand.
quote: You assume that they're using wiretaps responsibly because they say they are, not because you have any evidence of it (because you don't have evidence of it, because they're warrantless).
quote: Again, I've told you like three or four times in this thread, that I've never said Bush is the one to blame for this. I think I've made this abundantly clear. It dumbfounds me that you continue to misrepresent my opinion despite my persistent attempts to correct your mistake.
quote: I am personally opposed federal smoking bans/regulation and federal laws on driver distraction. The federal government doesn't need to play nanny.
quote: What? That quote is just as relevant to this discussion as the one you regurgitated up. That's all I'm saying about that.
quote: LMAO says the guy who dragged Nixon's legacy into the mix. Get a clue. Nixon didn't do what he did because of a Congressional approved "wiretap" program. In fact what Nixon did, and this issue, are so far apart that it's really a strain for you to attempt a parallel. Bugging a hotel room and tapping international phone calls are two ENTIRELY different things with different consequences.
quote: No. But inversely you're assuming that there's no probable cause in play here. And we're all just being "spied" on because..ummm, just because they can. Again, invalid argument on your part. Where's you "evidence"?
quote: You always say that, and yet you keep bringing the man up. Jason, it's now 2012. Are you a history teacher, political advocate, or a writer for a TECH website?
quote: Well that's nice, and I agree, but that doesn't change my point. YOU might feel one way, but I'm simply demonstrating how many liberties one is willing to give away for whatever reason. Some of those that are, in my opinion, FAR more crucial than this one.
quote: But my point is that warrantless federal wiretapping is dangerous because it grants the federal government sweeping new unregulated powers.
quote: Ever heard of someone named J. Edgar Hoover? Or hundreds of other examples I could recite! How about throwing 112,000 Japanese American citizens in "internment camps"? Is that in the Constitution or Bill of Rights as well?
quote: THEY HAVE ALWAYS HAD SWEEPING AND UNREGULATED POWERS. Jesus are you really this naive?!
quote: I'm not going to waste much more time debating with you
quote: You bring up a valid point that a lot of other reforms are needed to truly move America towards a more perfect union.
quote: But fighting undocumented spying on American citizens is certainly a valid cause in the context of this much broader need for reform.