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Print 73 comment(s) - last by retrospooty.. on Oct 13 at 4:39 PM

RIM is the biggest loser, yet again, dropping on a unit sales and market share basis

It's that time per quarter again and Comscore has delivered its latest update for the state of U.S. mobile phone market.  The study looks at total market share, both on a per-platform and per-manufacturer basis, based on a survey of 30,000 U.S. adults.  Note total market share (this study) is different than recent adopter market share (which has been published elsewhere, e.g. in Nielsen Mobile's recent report).

When it comes to platforms, there are few surprises here.  Google Inc.'s (GOOG) Android continues to post impressive growth reaching 43.7 percent of U.S. smartphones -- up from 38.1 percent in October.  And Apple, Inc. (AAPL) continues to outpace the general market growth too, albeit growing slower than Google.  Its iPhone hit 27.3 percent market share, up from 26.6 percent in May.

Description: mart Phone Data
[Source: ComScore]

The biggest loser in smartphone crowd -- continuing its trail of losses -- is Waterloo, Ontario-based Research in Motion, Ltd. (TSE:RIM), which dropped from 24.7 percent to 19.7 percent (notably, also a drop on a unit (!) basis).  The defunct Symbian platform from Finland's Nokia Oyj. (HEL:NOK1V) also posted a drop -- a relatively predictable result as the company looks to phase in Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) Windows Phone 7 OS across its lineup.

Speaking of Microsoft, the Redmond, Washington operating systems giant managed to hang on to most of its market share dropping only from 5.8 percent to 5.7 percent, despite laggard sales of its flagship Windows Phone 7 platform.

This indicates that Microsoft actually grew its deployment in units, as overall Comscore says smartphones jumped to 84.5 million units in the wild in the U.S. -- up 10 percent from a quarter before.

When it comes to overall mobile deployment on a per-manufacturer basis, Samsung Electronics Comp., Ltd. (SEO:005930) continues to reign supreme, growing from 24.8 percent in May to 25.3 percent in August of smartphone and non-smartphone sales.  The rest of the rankings looking familiar -- LG Electronics (SEO:066570) in second, Google's recently acquired Motorola unit in third, Apple in fourth, and RIM in fifth.  Those rankings are identical to previous ones published by ComScore in August.

Description: arket share by manufacturer
[Source: ComScore]

Looking ahead Microsoft just deployed Windows Phone 7.5 "Mango"; Google is about to unleash Android 3.5 "Ice Cream Sandwich"; Apple is about to drop iOS 5 and the iPhone 4S; and RIM is slowly going to phase QNX across its smart phone lineup.

Source: ComScore



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RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/10/2011 1:15:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
RIM only does phones
Lies. RIM got 1 billion in SERVICES revenue. Read their quarter reports and learn your basic facts before lying here.
quote:
and judging by the huge layoff
Judging by 5000 people fired from MS a couple of years ago MS is even more dead than RIM.
quote:
So far they have done nothing but catch up to the rest of the industry... Not going to be good enough
Same for MS, they always play catchup but you never say this is not good enough. Double standards retro, your favorite double standards again ;) As usual.
quote:
You think they are doing great and most of the world disagrees
You think MS is doing great and most of the world disagrees, this is why MS stock is in steady decline since 2000.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/10/2011 2:31:11 PM , Rating: 2
OMG, you are still at it.Your comparison is just flawed from the get go.

"RIM got 1 billion in SERVICES revenue"
- uhhh, yes at a phone based email subscription. Its a service, but its all about the BB phone. No phone = no service.


"Same for MS, they always play catchup but you never say this is not good enough"


Catch up? They have 90% of the PC market in the world and have almost zero competition for that market. Apple's whopping 6% inst a threat, not even close. Now lets not even get into the enterprise market where MS owns as well. They invented it, own it, and have no competition at all in it.

"Judging by 5000 people fired from MS a couple of years ago MS is even more dead than RIM. "

MS has 135,000 employees and grows every year and is constantly hiring and laying off depending on the business unit needs - as they have dozens of products and revenue points, they have dynamic needs. Again, RIM has 17000 and shrinking with only phones and phone related service.

MS marketshare in Windows dropped over that last few years, yes, from like 92% to 90% - not a huge problem. RIM on the other hand is at 20% of a smaller market and is dropping FAST.

"You think MS is doing great and most of the world disagrees, this is why MS stock is in steady decline since 2000. "

MS had a very small peak where it went over 50 for literally a few weeks around 2000. 10 years ago it was at 28 and now its at 26. Its one of the most stable stocks on the market.

With every post you prove your lack of knowledge and that you are just trying to make RIM out as if all is well. I still dont know why, but whatever. Your agenda is apparently your agenda. I really do hope RIM turns it around, more competition means more advancement at a faster pace and cheaper price for all competitors in the sector.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/10/2011 8:13:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Its a service, but its all about the BB phone. No phone = no service
MS sales are all about Windows and PCs. More Mac/iPad/iPhone sales ==>> less PC sales ==>> less revenue from Windows based ecosystem for MS. No PC = no revenue for MS. Mac instead of PC = no revenue for MS. iPad instead of PC = no revenue for MS. And so on, you can see the tendency.
quote:
Catch up? They have 90% of the PC market in the world and have almost zero competition for that market. Apple's whopping 6% inst a threat
They have 90% of a legacy market, Apple doesn't care about legacy markets. MS has zero % of a new booming mobile market which is mostly controlled by Apple on high end and Google on low end. MS is always playing catch up trying to break into these new booming markets like smartphones and tablets. Got it now? You should stop boasting about legacy market that MS controls, this is NOT where most money is, as proved multiple times by Apple. Most money is in the consumer market where MS has no new exciting products, so this is where they are playing catch up. Of course if you don't count Kin and Zune as new and exciting...do you? hehehe :)))
quote:
lets not even get into the enterprise market where MS owns as well
Consumerization of IT will take care of that, you can count on this buddy. Same people who according to you drop the RIM services and old clunky BB handsets - these people introduce iPhones and iPads everywhere in the enterprise, killing old MS enterprise services and solutions whenever they can. You laugh at RIM services being dropped but then you turn a blind eye to the same tendency towards the MS services. I can see through your double standards retro! ALWAYS can see through you! Don't pull that old trick with me :) Won't work.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/11/2011 10:23:18 AM , Rating: 2
LOL, whatever... How can we even have a serious conversation when you keep bringing in different companies with different structures in different markets and totally different situations? "Apple doesn't care about legacy markets" WTF does that have to do with MS owning their HUGE market (much less RIM)?

Look, there is nothing I can say becasue your agenda is already set.

Wanna make a bet? I bet you RIM's marketshare erodes a bit more each quarter for the next 2 years. Within 2-3 quarters the sales and subscriptions actually shrink and there will be no way to hide it any longer. Possible caviat to that prediction: RIM releases something unique that people want that isnt offered on IOS Win7,or Android.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/11/2011 12:19:16 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I agree, MS better be releasing something unique in Win8 to stop their marketshare and stock price slide too. If you didn't notice consumerization of IT - it doesn't mean such thing does not exist.
quote:
MS owning their HUGE market
RIM is owning their huge (especially outside the US) market of enterprise wireless solutions too, so what?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 10:12:47 AM , Rating: 2
MS didnt lose more than half its marketshare like RIM, it slipped a few % and it still has 90% of that market, not 20% like RIM. MS Stock didnt crash to 1/7th its value, it dropped like 5% in the last decade. Do you understand the difference of a 5% drop vs. a 7 fold drop? I'll show you the math eqyuasion. 5% < 700% . RIM is NOT MS or APPLE

/paste - Look, there is nothing I can say because your agenda is already set.

Wanna make a bet? I bet you RIM's marketshare erodes a bit more each quarter for the next 2 years. Within 2-3 quarters the sales and subscriptions actually shrink and there will be no way to hide it any longer. Possible caveat to that prediction: RIM releases something unique that people want that isn't offered on IOS Win7,or Android.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/12/2011 11:19:30 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS didnt lose more than half its marketshare like RIM
That's US only, why do you equate US with the world?
quote:
it dropped like 5% in the last decade
It dropped like 3x from it's peak in 2000, stop pretending RIM dropped a lot while MS did not, this is clearly a lie.

You just don't understand that both MS and RIM control stagnating legacy markets that no one is interested in anymore. Companies make big money in different markets now. Your refusal to see clear and obvious similarities between MS and RIM is pretty funny. Is your agenda set or what?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 11:46:43 AM , Rating: 2
/paste3 - Look, there is nothing I can say because your agenda is already set.

Wanna make a bet? I bet you RIM's marketshare erodes a bit more each quarter for the next 2 years. Within 2-3 quarters the sales and subscriptions actually shrink and there will be no way to hide it any longer. Possible caveat to that prediction: RIM releases something unique that people want that isn't offered on IOS Win7,or Android.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/12/2011 11:59:36 AM , Rating: 2
Your agenda is set too :)


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 12:17:46 PM , Rating: 2
HOw can you even say that? I want RIM to succeed. My hope is that Apple, Android, MS and RIM ALL put out great stuff so we all get better phones cheaper on a regular basis. Adding to that I really hope Someone buys WebOS and uses at least its UI as well. I have no agenda. My disappointment with RIM is only that they are losing it, which is where we disagree.

/ paste4 Wanna make a bet? I bet you RIM's marketshare erodes a bit more each quarter for the next 2 years. Within 2-3 quarters the sales and subscriptions actually shrink and there will be no way to hide it any longer.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/12/2011 12:55:36 PM , Rating: 2
I agree they are losing market share in the US, I just can't understand why you equate the US with the world.

Judging by your logic everybody should have screamed "IE is dead! Looks at its drastic market share drop in the US since 2000! It's dropped in the US so it's DEAD!"

Instead what happened is that IE became even more alive with version 9. So what if IE stopped being monopoly and dropped its share drastically? Did it kill IE or made it even better?

Think about it.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 1:58:26 PM , Rating: 2
"I agree they are losing market share in the US, I just can't understand why you equate the US with the world."

You are cherry picking information, or more likely you are spouting info that RIM cherry picked for you. Check the charts on this link. RIM is down in US, Europe and Asia. The "rest of world" category isn't ROW minus US, its minus Asia, US, and Europe (which together is most of the buying power in the world). Check the actual sales/shipment charts dropping. See, it depends on where you cut it off and make your yearly count. RIM obviously does what all companies do with creative accounting and makes it appear not so bad (and I dont blame them there)....

http://www.onlinemarketing-trends.com/2011/09/blac...

So I re-iterate and post this same question for the 5th time edited to include the whole world (I can see you are reluctant to address it and don't blame ya).

Do you wanna make a bet? No money, of course, just a bet. I bet you RIM's worldwide marketshare erodes a bit more each quarter for the next 2 years. Within 2-3 quarters the worldwide sales and subscriptions actually shrink and there will be no way for RIM to hide it with creative accounting/reporting any longer.

Also, RIM is still not MS, MS has so many revenue streams. For example, beyone Windows OS, Server MS office and other software, they have so many patents, they even make more $$$ per Android sale than Google does. RIM is NOT MS


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/12/2011 3:27:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
RIM is down in US, Europe and Asia
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C0v3m33DrRQ/Tn4XWRunqII/... ==>> During the most recent 18 months (since March 2010) Europe and Rest is up, US is down, Asia is flat. Stop smoking crack and lying to me please. CAN'T YOU SEE THIS GRAPH FOR YOURSELF? Maybe use magnifying glass? Or what else will stop your lies if not that?
quote:
actual sales/shipment charts dropping
I already told you shipments do not include sell through. Shipments went down, sell through went up. THIS WAS IN MY PREVIOUS POST ABOVE: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22938...

Why are you so dumb that I have to show you the same facts over and over again? Why it takes you so long to understand them? How many more times you want me to repeat them to you before you START TO UNDERSTAND THE FACTS I'M TALKING ABOUT?
quote:
I re-iterate and post this same question
Worldwide market share erodes? Why would it erode if the Rest and Europe market share charts went up and Asia stayed flat? Please explain this. I would agree with you if all the charts for all the regions were down, but it is clearly not the case, is it?
quote:
sales and subscriptions actually shrink
Making the bet on RIM's future QNX handset sales to shrink is just as stupid as betting on Windows 8 sales to shrink. Why would one make such a bet? I don't understand.
quote:
MS has so many revenue streams
And all of them depend on Windows. No Windows = no Microsoft. You think Xbox and Android revenues can replace Windows based revenue streams? Really? Are you drunk or high?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 3:59:45 PM , Rating: 2
Any comparison you make for RIM to MS is just stupid and/or an attempt to draw the conversation away from RIM's troubles, so just leave MS out... Lets look at RIM.

So, I am going to assume by your unwillingness to take the simple bet, that you are not confident in your conclusions.

Again - I bet you RIM's worldwide marketshare erodes a bit more each quarter for the next 2 years. Within 2-3 quarters the worldwide sales and subscriptions actually shrink and there will be no way for RIM to hide it with creative accounting/reporting any longer.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/12/2011 4:18:45 PM , Rating: 2
Still same questions you have not answered. Why would worldwide marketshare erode if the "Rest" and "Europe" market share charts in your graph went up and "Asia" chart stayed flat? Why are you sure that RIM's future QNX handset sales will shrink?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 4:51:46 PM , Rating: 2
Like I said companies use creative accounting and reporting and can make numbers look different for short periods of time. We're both looking at the same charts depending on when you start it you could say it went up or down. Whatever , we are not gonna agree on that and we've been over it before. As far as qnx, it didn't help the playbook any at all...

My point is this... I say within a year rim won't be able to use creative accounting and " pick and choose" reporting and won't be able to hide the decline any longer. And you are afraid to take that bet arent you?


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/12/2011 5:04:28 PM , Rating: 2
Well if I say I'd bet on RIM worldwide market share not dwindling and QNX handset sales not shrinking, will you be afraid to take the bet?
quote:
We're both looking at the same charts depending on when you start it you could say it went up or down
Yeah, I can see RIM market share went down first and then it went up after that, but I still can't understand why are you ignoring the "went up" parts of the graph, why are you only focusing on "went down" parts?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/12/2011 5:25:18 PM , Rating: 2
"Well if I say I'd bet on RIM worldwide market share not dwindling and QNX handset sales not shrinking, will you be afraid to take the bet? "

I am not sure exactly what you mean. There are currently no QNX phones, so how could that shrink or grow? I mean this... Worldwide , overall, counting the entire globe (not any one particular region) - marketshare will go down steadily and by this time next year, RIM sales, production, sell through, everything will show the decline as well.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 10:37:56 AM , Rating: 2
Like I said above, I'd agree with you if the charts you showed me demonstrated that RIM marketshare went down recently in ALL regions of the world. Since this is not the case, and since marketshare in some regions like Europe actually WENT UP ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CHARTS , the same old question still stands that you seem to NEVER answer: why are you contradicting THE TREND DATA FROM YOUR OWN REGIONAL MARKETSHARE CHART YOU SHOWED ME YESTERDAY? I mean this one: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C0v3m33DrRQ/Tn4XWRunqII/...

Well this one you'll never be able to answer I think. Looks like I caught ya at last hehe :)


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 10:53:40 AM , Rating: 2
Down overall is what I am saying it will show. Take the bet, come on, put your money where your mouth is (of course, just a pride bet). I am saying by this time next year the downturn will be unhideable. Take it if your so sure.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 11:34:10 AM , Rating: 2
You still haven't answered how come overall marketshare for the whole world will be down if right now in some regions of the world like Europe the marketshare is actually growing.

If some regions are growing maybe overall worldwide marketshare will also grow with them? Why do you think this is impossible?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 12:01:19 PM , Rating: 2
Come on, we have been going back and forth for a while on this and i KNOW your are not a stupid person. I know you can understand what the word "total" means. I mean overall, its down. If you add it all together all regions as if the earth is one single market, its down and trending deeper down.

I don't think its impossible for their marketshare to grow. If they release something great that people want it can grow dramatically. But that doesnt seem to be happening with Lazaridis and Balsillie is severe denial just like you are.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 12:04:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I mean overall, its down
Where's the chart that proves it?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 12:22:34 PM , Rating: 2
Dood, you are not that dense. US is the largest market and it USED to be for RIM until it went way the hell down. I'd ask you to do some quick mental math in your head and figure why dropping from 55% in the US trumps the small gains in smaller markets but you want to ignore that.

Just put up or shut up. Lets do that bet, or are you afraid. Its not for any money, just for "I told you so" rights. By October next year, there wont be any way to hide behind creative data reporting and "pick and choose" facts. It will be down all over, and undeniable. Come on, stand behind what you say or STFU.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 12:47:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
why dropping from 55% in the US trumps the small gains in smaller markets
It may be now, but 1) the market for smartphones globally is still growing and will grow for many years, 2) RIM market share is growing outside of US as well. Given these two trends it's pretty hard to believe you, because these two trends contradict your grim predictions.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 12:48:58 PM , Rating: 2
Then put up or shut up. Lets do that bet, or are you afraid. Its not for any money, just for "I told you so" rights. By October next year, there wont be any way to hide behind creative data reporting and "pick and choose" facts. It will be down all over, and undeniable. Come on, stand behind what you say or STFU.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 1:49:12 PM , Rating: 2
Explain how you are going to deal with those two trends above that contradict your predictions or shut up.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 2:22:00 PM , Rating: 2
Its not my issue to deal with. put up or shut up. Lets do that bet, or are you afraid?


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 2:56:05 PM , Rating: 2
Even if it's not your issue you still have to deal with it for your predictions to look more plausible than they are now. If you can't tell me how these two trends are not going to buck your supposed global market share drop, this means you are afraid about the validity of your predictions. Why would I bet with a guy who can't even explain why and how his predictions are going to buck the current trends? Those trends contradict your predictions and you afraid to deal with it? Can't expect me to bet then eh :) Deal with your fear first.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 3:12:01 PM , Rating: 2
This is pointless, we have both said our piece again and again and disagree. I think RIM is headed downhill fast, and you think they are OK. There is nothing left to do but see what happens, so let’s do that bet, or are you afraid? It’s not for any money, just for "I told you so" rights.
The bet: By October next year, there won’t be any way to hide behind creative data reporting and "pick and choose" facts. RIM’s numbers will be down all over, sales, marketshare, everything everywhere and it will be undeniable.

Come on, stand behind what you say or just shut up.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 3:26:14 PM , Rating: 2
I can't bet because I don't have full picture of the situation. When I ask you questions to clarify that picture you avoid answering. Until you answer me - I can't bet. Because I don't bet on my beliefs, I bet on facts only.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 3:28:26 PM , Rating: 2
What needs clarification? It seems pretty simple to me.

The bet: By October next year, there won’t be any way to hide behind creative data reporting and "pick and choose" facts. RIM’s numbers will be down all over, sales, marketshare, everything everywhere and it will be undeniable.

Come on, stand behind what you say or just shut up.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 3:33:27 PM , Rating: 2
I need clarification about this: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22938...

I gave you two trends that contradict your predictions and you never answered the question: why do you think that these trends won't matter?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 3:35:11 PM , Rating: 2
This is pointless, we have both said our piece again and again and disagree. I think RIM is headed downhill fast, and you think they are OK. There is nothing left to do but see what happens, so let’s do that bet, or are you afraid? It’s not for any money, just for "I told you so" rights.
The bet: By October next year, there won’t be any way to hide behind creative data reporting and "pick and choose" facts. RIM’s numbers will be down all over, sales, marketshare, everything everywhere and it will be undeniable.

Come on, stand behind what you say or just shut up.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 3:53:39 PM , Rating: 2
I don't bet on my beliefs, I bet on facts only, and facts depend on your answers which you still hide. I mean answers to questions here: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22938...


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 3:57:13 PM , Rating: 2
What answers? I we are both looking at the same data available on the internet in the same links we both looked at. There is nothing for me to hide, I just see the available data and I say RIM is on the precipice of a steep fall. There is nothing left to say or do.

Obviously you are afraid to take the bet, because you know you are wrong and RIM is in trouble eh Pirks? If not, take the bet.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 4:04:51 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously you are afraid to answer my questions at http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22938... because you know you are wrong about your grim predictions and RIM can actually grow its market share eh retro? If not, answer my questions.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 4:08:06 PM , Rating: 2
There is no answer but to see what happens with RIM. Come on, stand behind what you say or just shut up.


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 4:14:54 PM , Rating: 2
OK, I agree lets keep it here in this one thread... http://www.dailytech.com/Jaguar+Gets+Support+for+R...


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 4:16:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
stand behind what you say
Are you afraid to answer my questions at http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22938... because you can't stand behind what you say?


RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 4:19:12 PM , Rating: 2
Let's not keep this 3 thread thing, its giving me a headache. I answered it in the Jaguar thread. Lets keep it there sice its one conversation http://www.dailytech.com/Jaguar+Gets+Support+for+R...

If I am not answering the right question there, please re-ask it so I know what info you are looking for. I will be happy to answer.


RE: Not surprising...
By Pirks on 10/13/2011 4:23:19 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Not surprising...
By retrospooty on 10/13/2011 4:39:06 PM , Rating: 2
Answered in the Jaguar thread.


"It seems as though my state-funded math degree has failed me. Let the lashings commence." -- DailyTech Editor-in-Chief Kristopher Kubicki














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