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Chinese J-20 spy shot
China has a new stealth fighter waiting in the wings

The Chinese government is spending heavily to increase its military might and is increasing spending on research into new weapon systems. China insists that it is no threat to other countries, but much of the world looks warily at the communist country and its growing power.

China's defense minister Liang Guanglie says that the country wants to modernize its military without foreign aid. Liang said, "In the coming five years, our military will push forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction."

Liang continues to say that China would advance its capability to fight and win future high-tech wars while boosting its conventional military arsenal. China is working on weapons that trouble some military analysts and military personnel in the U.S. with new weapons systems like the DF-21 missile which can destroy a U.S. supercarrier with a single hit.

Liang said, "We will stand on our own feet to solve the problem and develop our equipment. The modernization of the Chinese military cannot depend on others, and cannot be bought."

According to Liang, China is building up its navy, air force, and strategic missile forces. China is thought to be launching a new aircraft carrier as much as a year before analysts expected and the Chinese Air Force has a new stealth jet that has been seen recently in spy shots.  The Chinese stealth aircraft is called the J-20 and is thought to be aimed at the U.S. F-22 Raptor. Some reports have claimed that the J-20 is larger than the Raptor with more weapons and fuel capacity making some think that the aircraft may not be as fast or agile as the Raptor in a fight.

Defense News reports that U.S. Defense Secretary Ronald Gates will head to Beijing soon for talks with Chinese officials. The visit will undoubtedly be in part to talk about the fact that China is allied with North Korea. North Korea recently shelled a small South Korean island killing four people, including two civilians.



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Made in...
By bohrd on 12/30/2010 11:19:57 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah but I bet all their parts have "Made in China" printed on them somewhere...

Even the tires are probably made of lead.




RE: Made in...
By Bruneauinfo on 12/30/2010 11:24:37 AM , Rating: 5
yeah, and "Made in Japan" and "Made in Taiwan" used to mean made of crap too a long time ago. But, "The times they are a'changin'.


RE: Made in...
By michael67 on 12/31/2010 6:21:37 AM , Rating: 2
They sure do, everyone sees china as a communistic country ware it is actually more and more getting a national socialistic country, just like Germany in the 1930s.
And no i don't mean that they are becoming Nazi's, i mean they are more ore less using the same economic model that Germany used to get from a bankrupted country to the world's most powerful country in one decade.
quote:
National Socialism is the name used for political ideologies which purpose to merge nationalism and socialism. It was realized once in the form of Nazism by the Nazi Party in Germany. Several other political parties have used the name National Socialist Party or National Socialist Movement, and the name has been adopted by neo-Nazi groups in various countries. The ideology has only been formally applied in one historical case and is consequently judged by how it was implemented in the Third Reich. These factors have caused the term National Socialism to be used nearly synonymously with racism, Nazism or anti-Semitism. National Socialism is a complex ideology that seeks to be an alternative to both international capitalism and international communism.

Do Germany was financial bankrupted they ware far from that in the science level, ware China had to made up a lot of ground to get at the same level as the rest of the world.
Do they do invest more heavily in science then any other country in the world to make up for it, and yes they are also stealing it from any ware if they can get there hands on it, so what US & USSR did the same whit Germany tech after WOII.

And it is actually not a bad model, as it is a mix between capitalism and Communism, and tries to use the best of both models.
Think of having two companies developing a product, both can lean back on national resources (ground materials, research, etc.), then one of them get granted the contract to make the product and sell it on the open market.
Also think of the cost savings of legal departments compared to western companies, and they do not have a patent problem as we do, if some one come up whit something smart everyone can use it in china. (tho they will patent it to the rest of the world)

But basically ware it come down to China wants for its people the same as what we got, and they are willing to fight to get a equal share, and we in the west are fighting to hold on on what we got.

As we don't give mouths about are poor, it is something else in China, ware everyone suppose the be the same, and there government pride them self on that.
China has lifted 300 million people out of poverty in less than a generation.
What did we do in the same time ?
We got the poor even poorer, and the Rep. saved the tax cuts for the rich, whit top 1% of the people owning the same amount of welt as the bottom 90%.

And i my self as a foreman/supervisor offshore, i have even do i am not doing bad, seen my income go down year over year, i literally make the same amount of money now as i did 20 years ago as a pipe-fitter onshore, guise all that inflation went in to the pockets of those 1% of people that imho all ready did not need it >_<

A great documentary about china is this one: Discovery "The Peoples Republic of Capitalism"
As that one will give you a more real inside on how China works, and not the FOX version of a virtual enemy the news are making them.

And wondering why China invest so mouths in military, just listening to the chest pounding by US politicians and image Chinese government officials saying the same about the US, I would wane invest in some big guns ;-)


RE: Made in...
By mars2k on 12/31/2010 9:15:51 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah at this rate "Made in Taiwan" won't be printed on too many more things. The Chinese will see to that with their shiny new military build up and we'll be powerless to do anything.
I guess I don't have to point out that "Made in Taiwan" get printed on all of our computer chips do I?
What then?


RE: Made in...
By warisz00r on 12/30/2010 11:26:50 AM , Rating: 2
If you are trying to be funny or sarcastic then let me tell you that you are neither.

If they failed to refine their WS-10 turbofan in time for the production, they might have to export Saturn 117S engines from Russia, who is interestingly may resort to the same engine for their PAK-FA due to problems in developing one specifically for it.

Yeah, in the end, the J-20/J-14 might not be 100% MiC.


RE: Made in...
By HrilL on 12/30/2010 11:32:30 AM , Rating: 2
Or if you ingest any parts it turns to GHB.


RE: Made in...
By bug77 on 12/30/2010 11:33:38 AM , Rating: 5
You do realize the T-34 and Sherman were vastly inferior to the german Tiger and Panther. The Me-262 was the only jet fighter and Germany was the only nation equipped with long range missiles at the time. And yet quality got them nowhere in the face of sheer numbers.


RE: Made in...
By sviola on 12/30/2010 11:53:42 AM , Rating: 2
Well, while chinese products may be know to be subpar, that is probably not true for the military equipment. And if you add that they have quality and also have sheer numbers, that could make them a very fearsome oponent. As it may be the case of NK, if China does supply them with equipment (As they have a very large army, with almost 1.2 mi soldiers, 200k in special forces alone).


RE: Made in...
By superPC on 12/30/2010 12:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
i still think the world has less to fear from china than it is from radical muslim countries. china never express their desire to conquer and destroy the evil western empire.

china just wants to sell cheap knockoff to the whole world. if anyone gets in the way of that than they should worry about china but otherwise it's all good in the world...


RE: Made in...
By Taft12 on 12/30/2010 12:41:18 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
china never express their desire to conquer and destroy the evil western empire.


That doesn't mean the desire doesn't exist.

quote:
china just wants to sell cheap knockoff to the whole world. if anyone gets in the way of that than they should worry about china but otherwise it's all good in the world...


Upcoming resource shortages will have many countries getting in the way of others.


RE: Made in...
By MrBlastman on 12/30/2010 1:25:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Upcoming resource shortages will have many countries getting in the way of others.


This has already begun. Few people know this but currently, China produces and exports 97% of rare earth materials used in manufacturing. 97%. Just a day ago, China announced they are reducing their mandated export quota for 2011 by 10%

The net result? Rare earth prices began to rise. China is directly manipulating the global supply and really, I can't blame them as we have LET them put the world in this position.

It is all of our fault as we have all innocently assumed that the "Chinese just want to shovel out cheap crap to all of us so we can pay them money." The fact of the matter is, the Chinese are tired of being third rate and all these years they have diligently worked away knowing that our money is flowing to them--out of our pockets--that they have been accumulating to get to the point where they reach their own financial critical mass and... do not need any of us... any more.

This time has either come, or is almost here. The Chinese are not going to pretend to be stupid forever.


RE: Made in...
By Solandri on 12/31/2010 2:05:17 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
China produces and exports 97% of rare earth materials used in manufacturing. 97%. Just a day ago, China announced they are reducing their mandated export quota for 2011 by 10%

The net result? Rare earth prices began to rise. China is directly manipulating the global supply and really, I can't blame them as we have LET them put the world in this position.

People keep talking about this like China has some sort of monopoly. They don't. Rare earth metals aren't really that rare. What happened was that China started selling theirs at such a low price that nobody else could compete, so everyone shut their mines down and bought the stuff from China instead. If China raises the prices, it'll become economically viable to re-open those mines again, and China loses their "monopoly". They only have a monopoly so long as they keep the price cheap, which is kinda like having a race car which can go fast except when it races.

China is trying to follow the same pattern that Japan, Korea, and Taiwan went through. When they first made stuff, it was cheap and crappy. Around the 1980s, Japan improved its quality enough that "made in Japan" became a good thing. Same happened with Korea in the 1990s. And today, many of our computer products are made in Taiwan. If they can pull it off, good for them. The quality and price will rise, and a new developing nation will fill the vacant bottom low-price tier. If they can't, then it's really no skin off our nose.

quote:
The fact of the matter is, the Chinese are tired of being third rate and all these years they have diligently worked away knowing that our money is flowing to them--out of our pockets--that they have been accumulating to get to the point where they reach their own financial critical mass and... do not need any of us... any more.

This time has either come, or is almost here. The Chinese are not going to pretend to be stupid forever.

Actually, the money flowing to them has more to do with their manipulation of the currency markets, which is also a good part of the reason why their products are so cheap. They're not pretending to be stupid, they're deliberately being stupid and underpricing their labor and products as part of a scheme to get more foreign investment and business. If they continue that and try to base their economic maturation on it, they're going to be in for a serious market recession/crash when they stop the manipulation in an attempt to raise their per capita GDP to first world levels.

Due to inflation, accumulating money isn't really the best way to improve your economy. That's why the deficits created by each new U.S. President seems to dwarf all the past deficits. Inflation devalues the amount of accumulated debt relative to current deficits. To really improve your economy, you have to build domestic productivity. That's what China is trying to do - price its labor and products below market, get foreigners to invest to build factories and manufacturing for them, then stop their currency manipulation to get rid of the foreigners and use those factories for domestic production. Getting cash from other countries is just a side effect of this.

And it's actually a negative for them - since they are underpricing their goods, the value of the goods we are getting from them exceeds the value of the cash we are giving them. So it's actually China which is on the losing end of all this foreign trade in terms of value. Their government just sees it as an acceptable price to pay for expedited industrialization.


RE: Made in...
By Strunf on 12/31/2010 8:25:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If China raises the prices, it'll become economically viable to re-open those mines again

Yes and just like the US has been doing for the last few decades China is now stretching its arm to other countries, they are effectively buying mines and other concessions to monopoly not just the resources in China but also elsewhere, this is why the military will be with no doubt a card to be played when it's time for negotiations...


RE: Made in...
By bug77 on 12/30/2010 12:47:39 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
china never express their desire to conquer and destroy the evil western empire


China never expressed their desire to conquer Tibet either. It's true they don't seem an immediate threat to anyone, but that's true of any nation without a powerful army. At the same time, army build up goes hand in hand with projection of power. And that's were we should be worried.

It's complicated, it's politics. And at the end of the day, no one knows for sure.


RE: Made in...
By tim851 on 1/1/11, Rating: 0
RE: Made in...
By ekv on 12/30/2010 1:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
china never express their desire to conquer and destroy the evil western empire.
Perhaps you should ask Japan what they think about China's desires. Or ask Taiwan.


RE: Made in...
By Skywalker123 on 12/30/2010 4:14:45 PM , Rating: 2
China will one day take control of Taiwan, that is the main thrust of their buildup. China is not going to invade Japan.


RE: Made in...
By ekv on 1/1/2011 3:41:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
China will one day take control of Taiwan
Maybe, maybe not. If you'll recall, Taiwan used to be a close ally. Somebody we would fight for. And as far as Japan is concerned, I can imagine China has some pent up frustration over what happened in WW2, e.g. war atrocities. Though draw your own conclusions.

I doubt either will go down w/o one helluva fight. Militarily or economically.


RE: Made in...
By eddieroolz on 1/2/2011 7:42:52 AM , Rating: 2
They've illegally attacked Japanese Coast Guard vessels outside of their waters. They have also threatened South Korea over a little rock in the East China Sea.

Not to mention the 30-year illegal occupation of the Paracel and Spratley Islands.


RE: Made in...
By Skywalker123 on 12/30/2010 4:12:18 PM , Rating: 2
The T-34 was not "vastly inferior" to the Panther.


RE: Made in...
By bug77 on 12/30/2010 5:24:14 PM , Rating: 3
True, but I was thinking strictly about the build quality. German tanks were like engineering marvels while Russian armor was just "good enough".

The same applies to the F22. It may be way better, but I think USAF will only get a few hundred. If the chinese build 5.000 J-20s, USAF is screwed.


RE: Made in...
By Beno on 12/31/2010 2:29:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The same applies to the F22. It may be way better, but I think USAF will only get a few hundred. If the chinese build 5.000 J-20s, USAF is screwed.

in times of war the price wont matter. propably be built by dozens per month.

im no expert :) but i just looked at history. and it could be different this time though


RE: Made in...
By bug77 on 12/31/2010 9:27:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
in times of war the price wont matter. propably be built by dozens per month.


Maybe it won't, but production capabilities will. And US doesn't have too many of those either.

There was a study back in the cold-war era about an aerial conflict between US and USSR. The conclusion? USAF would have been wiped-out in a matter of weeks.


RE: Made in...
By Mudhen6 on 12/30/2010 11:16:15 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You do realize the T-34 and Sherman were vastly inferior to the german Tiger and Panther. The Me-262 was the only jet fighter and Germany was the only nation equipped with long range missiles at the time. And yet quality got them nowhere in the face of sheer numbers.


That's not accurate at all. The T-34 was not "vastly inferior" to its German counterparts, and the Sherman was only inferior to late-war heavy German tanks that were less mobile and suffered from reliability issues.

Sheer numbers was only part of the picture, and is almost never representative of what actually happened. If anything, the Germans lost because the war was essentially over by the time their new toys arrived - all their aces and veteran tank crews have been killed, leaving 15-year olds piloting German fighters against Allied P-51s.

Relating this back to a hypothetical conflict with China, the U.S. has F-22s - fighters that fly so fast and that are detected at ranges so small they may as well be invisible, allowing them to engage and disengage at will. Sheer numbers are ineffective (unless they can attack F-22s on the ground), and China has no equivalent.

The U.S. therefore will (eventually) win the air war, and will have a huge advantage over any subsequent ground/sea battle.


RE: Made in...
By bug77 on 12/31/2010 9:45:42 AM , Rating: 2
Oh really? Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
The soviets had 66% more tanks, lost 7 times as much as the germans and still the battle was a close call (von Mastein said he had an opportunity for a decisive breach towards the end).

Then there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I#Combat_exampl...

The not-so-inferior Sherman you talk about is the Sherman Firefly which was a British variant and only saw action in 1944.

The same logic you apply to the F22 has already been applied to the F4 (or was it F5?) when it was decided the plane was so awesome it wouldn't need a machine gun because it will never have to engage in a dogfight. It did.


"If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion." -- Scientology founder L. Ron. Hubbard

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