quote: Can you really say that its that bad to not have a choice if you are given a logically fair deal that works as it is supposed to? What would you rather be able to choose? Think of how much time and effort and money could be spent on other things that should be more important than the name of your college or what health insurance carrier you have? If the end result is the same then who cares?
quote: People in the US complain constantly about paying too much in taxes and fight every increase everywhere, but are not willing to pick up the bill for this stuff on their own.
quote: And if having an open market is always the best choice then why can you go to many other countries and receive the same level of health care by doctors who studied in the US in a better furnished hospital with more comforts and more room and a much longer recovery stay than the same EXACT procedure in the US?
quote: 1. We do pay too much in taxes.
quote: 2. What bill are you saying we don't want to pick up? We fund more of everything in the world than any other country.
quote: We aren't even in the top twenty in the world for highest taxes per our income.
quote: If being number 21 is "too high" for being one of the richest countries in the world, where do you think we should be?
quote: I mean that if some poor 18 year old girl down the street with a crappy McD's job cant afford to go to college or go to the doctors for a broken leg, what are her options (in a humane world?)
quote: Is that because our taxes are low, or because our incomes are so high?
quote: No, you suggest a one dimensional metric. The real gauge is looking at WHAT is being done with the money. An example: Here in California, we've been throwing more and more money at our education system, hiring a ridiculous number of non-teaching personnel and giving raises left and right. And over the years, as education sucks up more and more money, dropout rates have gone up. They're absolutely unacceptable. That's how I can tell taxes are too high: They take more money and produce crappier results.
quote: As low on the list as possible, and no lower.
quote: Go to the doctor, get her leg fixed, and let the taxpayer foot the bill; as a people we can't stomach the situation you just described, which is why hospitals can't deny treatment.
quote: It is based as how much money is left over at the end of the year to spend on whatever we want so I would say thats both
quote: The topic was the amount of taxes so the conversation is "one dimensional" not just what I suggest. The topic of how efficient our government is with that money is a different conversation all together.
quote: I am merely commenting from the POV of being a US citizen, and since the only ones defending this (and blindly at that) are US citizens I have to be on the offensive to counter the unfounded assumptions that seem to be pouring out.
quote: I also dont mean to imply everything said by everyone has been wrong, but the majority has been merely assumptions by a US citizen that the US is "the best" and they are searching for "reasons" to make that opinion true.
quote: The hospital cannot deny treatment, but will still sue you for the money. Thats why in this country the number one reason for individuals filing bancruptcy is medical bills and expenses.
quote: Thats part of what I meant by in a humane world, I dont consider ruining someones credit as a justified reaction to her having a broken leg.
quote: I also found absolutly no mention anywhere of Canada being able to deny emergency treatment.
quote: Efficiency is at the core; if 1% of your money is taken and wasted, that is too much tax compared to 10% of your money taken and used for things that actually benefit you. Tax is inherently tied to result, and if the results are good, then the tax is worth it.
quote: It is unfounded to recognize a high tax for what it is? I don't think you're going on the offensive, bud; it looks like a defensive tone in your posts. I think you're reading too much into others posts.
quote: I don't see that attitude at all. While it is true that any large enough group of people will have the extremely vocal minority of douchebags that won't listen to reason, the vast majority of opinions from that group will be more reasoned. And while there is some vitriol being used in other posts, I don't see this "US is best" attitude that you seem to observe.
quote: Yup, sometimes the choices you need to make to save your life or improve your health are difficult ones. I think it's wonderful that those choices exist, as opposed to some government-supplied health care plans that don't allow for some choices.
quote: And I think that's exactly why credit exists, for awful unavoidable emergencies.
quote: If bankruptcy were easy, it would be heavily abused.
quote: I don't know why you'd even look, as I certainly didn't specify "emergency treatment".
quote: And over the years, as education sucks up more and more money, dropout rates have gone up.
quote: The "bill" is any of things we are talking about that are free in other countries, but we have to pay for ourselves here. I mean that if some poor 18 year old girl down the street with a crappy McD's job cant afford to go to college or go to the doctors for a broken leg, what are her options (in a humane world?) Are you going to pay her bill? I dont see many people in this country helping out. I'm not saying that nobody does, but the majority do not. They all want their money to themselves to go buy more fast food or their premium cars or their oversized houses while complaining about having some of the cheapest gas in the world.
quote: Well now I know you're a complete moron and a Marxist.
quote: Yeah you're right dude, people who break their legs in this country are left to wander the streets until they get Gan-green and DIE...
quote: And why is keeping your own money a bad thing? You are SUCH a socialist leftist little fuck. God this angers me!! Stop making the productive members of our society out to be bad people!!!
quote: What's funny is you say all this crap, but I bet you haven't done SHIT for other people anyway. Go ahead and list all the charities you donate to. List all the community groups you participate in. How many homeless have you invited to live in your own house?
quote: That's what I thought. You're full of fucking hot air. Go jump off a roof asshole.
quote: Where is this shangrila of medicine that you speak of? I lived in the UK and the British doctor on base specifically warned me not to use the local hospitals because they had serious issues, i.e. using bedding over without washing, bugs in the ward, and lack of nurses to name a few. A friend experienced all those and more in the local hospital with his wife. You are putting up a lot of misinformation based on BS.
quote: Our system is more expensive because we subsidize most of the drug research by pay full cost while the rest of the world caps those cost by factoring out R&D costs. We also have more advanced diagnostics in our hospitals than most of the world and the latest tech costs money. If someone needs the most advanced procedure they come here, if you want a common procedure for less there are other choices but they come without safe guards. Nothing is free
quote: I prefer debates that use facts, not just your opinion. Anyone can say "your wrong because I said so" so step up and show some factual basis for what you are saying.
quote: Easy example. You stated the "cost" of someones health care is "1000%" higher than whatever other country you brought up. But that's impossible to factually say, because the cost of health care in typical Socialist European nations is directly tied into sales tax, a "VAT" tax, and other taxes. But it's impossible to determine that percentage you gave, because you don't know how much every person buys and contributes to the tax health care pot, do you?
quote: Also those systems have the Government DIRECTLY engaging in cost controls, while our system is still free market. Of course costs look lower when the government is directly setting them, but the only way to effectively control costs is to engage in service reduction. You honestly rather have a bureaucrat somewhere deciding what they will and won't pay for? At least with an Insurance company, you can go somewhere else. What recourse do you have when the government, who runs the system, says they won't cover you? Or that you have to wait 6 months for something? None.
quote: Where is your facts and links that show we pay "1000%" more in health care costs? You're being a hypocrite, you posted no referred facts yourself. And please, I said facts, not the Wikipedia. And we all know how flawed and biased the World Heath Organization's study is, so don't bother with that either.
quote: Plus the premise for your argument isn't grounded in reality. We DON'T CARE what the rest of the world is doing. The rest of the world is SHIT, it's a good thing that we do things different. As bad as our economy is, the European Union is crumbling at the moment.
quote: And by the way, idiot, I guess this is ALL a moot point. Because we stupidly PASSED a European style nationalized Health Care system as of this year. I can't wait, because then every moron like you, when they realize how shitty it is, can finally admit they were WRONG. And that, despite the costs and problems, we already had the greatest system on the planet.