Print 57 comment(s) - last by robinthakur.. on May 6 at 10:35 AM

"Man I love HTML5, but that Flash really gives me a headache!" "Me too, Steve, oh my gosh!!"  (Source: Coder Log)
Microsoft also supports use of proprietary video codec -- h.264

Proponents of HTML5, a hot new web standard that adds video and audio capabilities to the HTML stable, say that it is essential to free the web from the proprietary clutches of Adobe, maker of Flash.  Critics says that it's just a pretty box for another proprietary offering.  They point out that while HTML5 as an open standard could support open video standards like Ogg Theora, all the industry' major players have embraced h.264 -- a proprietary video codec -- as the future of HTML5, essentially killing the hopes of widespread support or adoption of an open codec.

Apple is a big fan of h.264 and a big fan of HTML5.  It doesn't think much of Adobe, though.

Perhaps a more important question, though, is where does Microsoft, who holds more than 90 percent of the operating system market, stand on this issue?   

Interestingly, in a blog to web developers, Microsoft's General Manager for Internet Explorer, Dean Hachamovitch agrees with Apple's assessment.  He states that HTML5 is the "future of the web".  He then proceeds to toss dirt at Adobe, commenting that their "reliability, security, and performance" haven't been so great.

He then softens the blow a bit, remarking that Flash is important to "a good consumer experience on today's web" -- but only because there's not many alternatives widely available currently (most users use Internet Explorer, which doesn't currently support HTML5).

Interestingly, in the talk the Microsoft exec totally ignores Microsoft's own proprietary plug-in Silverlight that it's long been trying to peddle.

Microsoft and Apple agreeing on HTML5?  Microsoft following "Apple's line" with the Windows Phone 7 smart phone operating system?  Windows 7 being fully supported on Boot Camp?  You'd think that Microsoft and Apple were old buddies, not bitter rivals.  What's the world coming to?

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RE: Did they, actually do this....
By bissimo on 4/30/2010 12:32:07 PM , Rating: 5

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By B3an on 4/30/2010 2:01:13 PM , Rating: 5
Yeah not if Jason writes it.

What a totally misleading title though, once again, in the quest for page views.

Funny how MS conveniently dont mention there own Silverlight though.
Neither Flash or SL will ever be replaced by HTML5 though, it's an extremely limited and simple language. Nowhere near as powerful as Flash's Action Script 3.0, or Silverlights .NET language. It's not just sites you can with them either, you can make full blown apllications, 3D, game engines.... theres even games on Steam now that are completely Flash based. Large companies like EA have also used Flash for game interfaces.

I'm actually making a Flash website right now (i know i should be working) and the part i'm currently doing, an intro animation using vector graphics of people that are also drawn within Flash... it's just one of the many many things that are not possible with HTML.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By 67STANG on 4/30/2010 2:37:35 PM , Rating: 1
Totally agree. Flash will still have a space to fill even after HTML5 comes out. It will probably lose a lot of the streaming video market, but there is much more to it than that, and that's what a lot of the stories like this ignore.

Since we are talking about Jobs and Gates, I thought I'd throw this out there for anyone how has ~9mins to burn and wants to ROFL:

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By karielash on 4/30/2010 4:33:52 PM , Rating: 4
Agreed, all those malware writers will still need a way to easily exploit systems and Adobe PDF and Flash formats will still fill that role with aplomb.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By 67STANG on 4/30/10, Rating: 0
RE: Did they, actually do this....
By elvarsteinn on 4/30/2010 2:51:34 PM , Rating: 5
Well just to point it out, there is SVG ( - not supported by IE yet) for open vector graphics, which in conjunction with JavaScript and HTML5 could provide you with a lot of the Flash functionality you mentioned.

Still not saying Flash will be replaced (not yet anyway). But we all know what eventually became of Java Applets, which were considered to be guaranteed as the future of the web. Who's to say eventually HTML6 or so entirely replaces Flash/SL?

To prove a point, here's a 3D-Engine demo written in JavaScript/HTML5 (requires Opera, Chrome or FireFox(slowest)):

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By B3an on 4/30/2010 4:16:01 PM , Rating: 2
I know about SVG but that combined with Java and HTML still could not do what i want.
But lets just say it could... why would i use this for my work when it can all be done in Flash with superior animation tools (and even the graphics are drawn in Flash without the need for something like Photoshop). It would take longer any other way and if i already didn't know Java and HTML so well, i'd also have to learn them, so the learning curve is also higher.

And again, HTML 6 or HTML 100 could never replace Flash or SL. It's simply not made for certain things.

The link with the 3D demo, that would use Java for the actual engine. HTML would only be used for simple things as it could never do anything like that on it's own.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By B3an on 4/30/2010 4:21:44 PM , Rating: 2
BTW i'd like to add, that Flash's ActionScript and SL's .NET are updated more regularly than HTML is. So by the time HTML6 (for instance) is complete, Flash and SL's coding languages would have gone through many new versions and updates. And new versions are the software are released yearly.

Now look at how long it's taken for HTML4 to get to HTML5, and it's still not complete until 2012.

It's one of the few benefits of having one company control something, as with open standards they often take forever to be updated.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By Sunday Ironfoot on 5/1/2010 4:53:23 AM , Rating: 3
There is a 3D graphics library that's part of HTML5, it's called WebGL, a subset of OpenGL. Google ported Quake 2 over to it, and got Quake 2 actually running in a Browser with no propriatary plugins.

Also JavaScript is simply getting faster and faster, and there are a lot of branching technologies that are part of the HTML5 umbrella (WebGL, Web SQL databases for offline storage, multi-threading support, WebSockets, Geolocation, native audio/video, Canvas, SVG, CSS animations etc etc). Check out this presentation on HTML5, written in HTML5

HTML5 will replace Flash/Silverlight, it needs to. All you Flash developers need to learn HTML5 soon, or you'll be out of a job.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By B3an on 5/1/2010 10:26:39 AM , Rating: 1
HTML5 will replace Flash/Silverlight, it needs to. All you Flash developers need to learn HTML5 soon, or you'll be out of a job.

Dont be ridiculous. People like you have no idea of what you're talking about, you have no experience with Flash either.
You see it's not just about what HTML5, or rather what the many other technologies that work with it can do. It's also about development time, learning curve, ease.
Everything can do done in Flash, and animated with professional tools, and drawn with professional tools all inside Flash.

To do something with HTML5, not only would i have to know HTML but also a ton of other techs ((WebGL, CSS, Canvas, SVG) just to do something. Then i would also have to draw the graphics is another software program.

This is extremely messy and time consuming. It's a massive step backwards. Even the end result would probably be lower quality tool as i dont have professional animation tools at my deposal.

This is one of the biggest reasons that many Falsh dev's like myself will NEVER stop using Flash. It's all about time and money.

By robinthakur on 5/6/2010 10:35:09 AM , Rating: 2
Well I do actually know what you're talking about as I'm a Flash developer also, but would anybody use Flash if you had to create and animate everything using ONLY Actionscript without the WYSIWHG 'pro' tools?

Its certainly possible, which is not to say that people want to do it. The same is true of Dreamweaver, its an application which abstracts the need to know CSS/HTML/Databases etc. but it still uses the underlying technologies.

Are you saying that a company like Adobe couldn't make a WYSIWYG app like Flash using the HTML5 and associated technologies on offer? Adobe's future, as I'm sure they are only too aware, lies in making HTML5 as easy to use as possible, or in standing behind Flash and fighting their corner. On desktops and laptops, Flash is ubiquitous as a plug-in. In the mobile space which is growing, it is not nearly as available on most devices, not just Apple ones.

The fact that the iPhone OS devices can't run it at all is a very significant thing to a lot of people. Are they more likely to blame Apple for not allowing Adobe to install Flash on the iPhone OS, or are they more likely to blame the person that designed a Flash dependent website which isn't standards-aware and makes no provision for a case where somebody doesn't have Flash? Its a bit like writing code assuming that everybody has local admin access. Flash is great at what it does but it is not an open-standard at the end of the day, and wishing does not make it so! It doesn't ship with the OS, its a plug-in like quicktime or Xvid etc as far as users are concerned which can be complex to get installed and working for the average imbecile.

If I'm designing a site, and the brief is one that works equally well on mobile devices as it does on the desktop (and most clients are aware of this need these days because so many people own iPhones and derivatives) then bottom line is that I won't expect mobile devices to have Flash and will design accordingly, possibly cutting Flash from the desktop version and using something more standards compliant.

Its still not possible to cut out proprietary stuff for things like video yet (easily) but at least users tend to be more forgiving of sites where certain non-crucial elements might be missing but the main content is navigatable, which is how it should be really. Just because FLash is widely used now does NOT mean that should HTML5 rise to the fore that Flash use will decrease and plateau if nobody wants to use it. As for Silverlight, forgetaboutit MS, this ship has sailed!

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By photek2020 on 5/1/2010 10:53:35 AM , Rating: 2
Lots of Flash dev's like myself do know HTML, CSS, JAVA and many other languages.

But whats been pointed out above, is that it is simply far more convenient, faster and easier to do everything with Flash.

If some sort of software came along that made it easy using HTML5 + WebGL + Canvas + everything else, and also has professional drawing tools within it ... then i would give it a try. But even if that did happen it would probably take many years to even come close to the level at which Flash is now at.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By nilepez on 5/1/2010 7:36:55 PM , Rating: 2
Of course it will take years. HTML 5 is a brand new standard that, AFAIK, isn't close to ratification.

But 5 or 10 years from now, who knows? As a user, I'm not a fan of Flash. I block all of it and only enable it if I absolutely have to (thus youtube get's a pass, while virtually no other site does).

As a rule, if a site only has a flash interface, I don't go to that site, because, IME, flash UIs are generally awful.

I can't compare it to silverlight, because I can't remember going to a site that uses it.

Tools are important, and if Flash or Silverlight remain light years ahead of HTML5, those technologies will stomp the latter, but my guess is that HTML5 will have it's day. Flash has too many security issues, and short of a rewrite, I don't see that changing.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By B3an on 5/1/2010 8:47:02 PM , Rating: 3
I'm sure there will be some good software for making HTML5 websites. Adobe Dreamweaver CS5 is already one of them, and it also can be used for Java, CSS, PHP, XML and many other languages.

BUT, with this kind of software, and how HTML is... the software does not work the same way as Flash. It has no real graphics, drawing, animation, and effects tools or any kind, or a timeline for animations, it's purely for coding and page layout.

I really dont think it's possible to have anything that competes with Flash because of this.. i mean, with Flash theres just one powerful coding language that can do it all. With HTML, WebGL, CSS, JAVA and so on... it's just too difficult to make software that somehow combines all this and integrates it so that it compares to Flash from a dev's perpective.
If it does happen it's a long way off, and by that time Flash and SL will just be even more advanced.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By gralex on 4/30/2010 7:45:24 PM , Rating: 3
Damn... hit "Worth Reading" by mistake.

Cheap thrills guys... Blogs are by definition opinionated (as they should be). What some of you interpret as sensationalism, could well be genuine frustration. I get the feeling J.M. is one of those rare people that can spit out the answer to a complex equation, but without showing you all the steps involved.

Spoon feeding an audience has its virtues, but it's hardly a blog prerequisite.

By photek2020 on 5/1/2010 11:06:42 AM , Rating: 2
It does not matter if it's a blog. This is not DailyBlogs anyway. Stuff like this should not even be on the front page.

And if something has a title in no relation to the "blog" then when i click on something, who knows what i will end up reading... thats not exactly a professional thing to do not is it.
This title is purely for hits.

By icanhascpu on 5/1/2010 9:34:45 PM , Rating: 1
Once upon a time people wrote with a bit more dignity and didn't have to use cowardly excuses as to why they write crap.

RE: Did they, actually do this....
By Redwin on 5/3/2010 10:27:37 AM , Rating: 2
Its NOT a blog post, its an article under the Internet section. The (blog) link next to the by-line is simply that -- a link to Jason's blog.

The link appears next to the by-line in every DailyTech article, and in nearly every storie's comments section, there are inevitably masses of people like you who will reply to criticism of the article with "But its a blog, look at the link next to his name, he can say what he wants!" (Granted, I think authors can say what they want irrelevant of what heading content is posted under, but that's neither here nor there)

I wish so badly that DailyTech would just REMOVE those (blog) links next to the by-lines so they would stop confusing people.

"We can't expect users to use common sense. That would eliminate the need for all sorts of legislation, committees, oversight and lawyers." -- Christopher Jennings

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